English language

[Erna]

The start of pidgins also fascinates me.

A pidgin language is a simplified language that develops as a means of communication between two or more groups that do not have a language in common. It is most commonly employed in situations such as trade, or where both groups speak languages different from the language of the country in which they reside (but where there is no common language between the groups). Fundamentally, a pidgin is a simplified means of linguistic communication, as is constructed impromptu, or by convention, between groups of people. A pidgin is not the native language of any speech community, but is instead learned as a second language. A pidgin may be built from words, sounds, or body language from multiple other languages and cultures. Pidgins usually have low prestige with respect to other languages.

Not all simplified or "broken" forms of a language (patois) are pidgins. Each pidgin has its own norms of usage which must be learned for proficiency in the pidgin.

We have a pidgin that developed in the mines in South Africa decades ago called Fanagalo.

Fanagalo or Fanakalo is a pidgin (simplified language) based on the Zulu, English, and Afrikaans languages. It is used as a lingua franca, mainly in the gold, diamond, coal and copper mining industries in South Africa — and to a smaller extent in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Namibia, Zambia, and Zimbabwe. Although it is used as a second language only, the number of speakers was estimated as "several hundred thousand" in 1975.

Fanagalo is the only Zulu-based pidgin language, and is a rare example of a pidgin based on an indigenous language rather than on the language of a colonising or trading power.

Zimbabwe has a variant known as "Chilapalapa", while Zambia's variant is "Cikabanga"

History and usage

Fanagalo is one of a number of African pidgin languages that developed during the colonial period to promote ease of communication. Adendorff (2002) suggests that it developed in the nineteenth century in KwaZulu-Natal Province as a way for English colonists to communicate with their servants and was also used as a lingua franca between English and Dutch/Afrikaans speaking colonists.

Fanagalo was used extensively in gold and diamond mines because the South African mining industry employed workers on fixed contracts from across southern and central Africa: including Congo, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Botswana, Malawi and Mozambique. With workers originating from a range of countries and having a vast range of different mother tongues, Fanagalo provided a simple way to communicate and is still used as a training and operating medium. Fifteen hours instruction was considered sufficient for an initiate to become reasonably fluent.

Still today, when someone doesn't make any sense, someone else would say "are you speaking Fanagalo?".

 

[shijing]

If you're interested in varieties of English (and people's attitudes about them), there's a good documentary called American Tongues that discusses it. It's about an hour long, and it's pretty funny in places -- it's been awhile since I've seen it, but I remember one part where an engaged couple take a road trip back into the south so that the man can introduce his fiancee to his family. She notices that his accent starts to shift back as they get further south, and by the time they reach their destination she breaks up with him because she's afraid their kids will grow up speaking with a southern accent.

There's also an interesting little database of varieties of English here.

 

[Scottie]

Another thought that came to me: I have always loved hearing different English accents. Most of them I like, some of them I don't... but they are all "interesting" somehow. When I was a kid, I also spent a lot of time imitating those accents - just sort of goofing around. Today, I find that only rarely will I be unable to understand an English accent. I especially like Australian accents and certain British accents. Then again, some of the British ones are just painful, and I don't understand a word.

But then, that raises the question: WHY do I find certain British accents "painful" if I generally tend to like most accents?

I could listen to an Indian speaking English for eternity (dunno why), but give me a Liverpudlian accent and I'm totally lost and sometimes even annoyed!

And then, to make matters even weirder, if I hear a French accent of which I only understand 10-20%, I can go away, do absolutely no practicing in that accent for 1 or 2 days, and return to talk to the same person again - at which point I will understand maybe 90% of what they say.

I should also note that when I became able to think in French, it became a LOT easier to speak the language. But then, I learned French over a period of 6 years in school when I was still relatively young.

 

[Lindenlea]

E,

The first time I heard a South African accent I thought it was a strange New Zealand one, having lived there for a couple of years. I find it easy to spot now as there are lots of SA's in Australia.

Papua New Guinea also have a pidgin language which is not too difficult to understand if spoken slowly.

 

[Erna]

but give me a Liverpudlian accent and I'm totally lost and sometimes even annoyed!

Yeah, it's interesting how they kind off swallow the end of words. When we watch British shows, we've noticed they move their lips a lot less than other cultures when they speak. Might be where the stiff upper lip saying comes from. ;) They still make the best crime mysteries though!

[quote author=Lindenlea]
I find it easy to spot now as there are lots of SA's in Australia.
[/quote]

Yep, most emigrating South Africans go to Australia, commonly referred to as the brain drain in SA, since it's all highly skilled people that qualify on the points system.

 

[Keit]

_http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/imitating-someones-accent-makes-it-easier-to-understand-them.html

Imitating Someone’s Accent Makes It Easier to Understand Them

In conversation, we often imitate each other’s speech style and may even change our accent to fit that of the person we’re talking to. A recent study in Psychological Science, a journal of the Association for Psychological Science, suggests that imitating someone who speaks with a regional or foreign accent may actually help you understand them better.

“If people are talking to each other, they tend to sort of move their speech toward each other,” says Patti Adank, of the University of Manchester, who cowrote the study with Peter Hagoort and Harold Bekkering from Radboud University Nijmegen in the Netherlands. People don’t only do this with speech, she says. “People have a tendency to imitate each other in body posture, for instance in the way they cross their arms.” She and her colleagues devised an experiment to test the effect of imitating and accent on subsequent comprehension of sentences spoken in that accent.

In the experiment, Dutch volunteers were first tested on how well they understood sentences spoken in an unfamiliar accent of Dutch. To make sure that all listeners were unfamiliar, a new accent was invented for the study, in which all the vowels were swapped (for instance ‘ball’ would become ‘bale’). Next, each participant listened to 100 sentences in the unfamiliar accent. But first, they were given different instructions on how to respond to the sentences. Some were told to repeat the sentence, imitating the accent. Others were told either only to listen, to repeat the sentences in their own accent, or to transcribe the accented sentences as they had heard them, complete with strange vowels. Finally, the participants were tested again on how well they could understand sentences spoken in the unfamiliar accent.

People who had imitated the accent did much better at understanding the sentences than the other people. “When listening to someone who has a really strong accent, if you talked to them in their accent, you would understand better,” Adank says. Of course, she says, “it’s obvious that you can’t really do that.” If you put on, say, a fake Southern accent when talking to someone from Georgia, they might not think your intention is friendly. But when your brain subtly and unconsciously shifts your voice to sound more like theirs, it appears to be deploying a useful strategy.

 

[endescent]

“If people are talking to each other, they tend to sort of move their speech toward each other,” says Patti Adank, of the University of Manchester, who cowrote the study with Peter Hagoort and Harold Bekkering from Radboud University Nijmegen in the Netherlands. People don’t only do this with speech, she says. “People have a tendency to imitate each other in body posture, for instance in the way they cross their arms.” She and her colleagues devised an experiment to test the effect of imitating and accent on subsequent comprehension of sentences spoken in that accent.

I actually realized a long time ago that I tend to do this subconsciously. I try to "mirror" the subtleties of the spoken and unspoken dialogue that's taking place so as to facilitate better communication. It might have been the book Monsters and Magical Sticks (or There's No Such Thing as Hypnosis) that inspired this behavior in me. I can vouch for this, it tends to put people at ease and build rapport.

 

[waasekom]

being a speaker from a language that has survived orally for many thousands of years, some clear contrasts about the language of English can be observed.

In ma language, there is differences between Living and nonLiving classifications.
Although recently the language has been materialized into a written form.
For example the word LOVE is Zaagiiwewin('flows like water') or Zaagidwin('all round'). but to loves some one it is Zaagin or ndo zaagin ('love you', or 'I love you'). But to Love it or covet is Zaagtoon (notice the difference between LOVE IT and LOVE SOMEONE).

Also within the oral language is the 'classifications' of personages which creates another contrast.
In OJIBWE, oral language, there are 7 personages and in English there are 3.
In OJIBWE, most of the vocabulary is considered living. Verbs in particular, are living functioning things. It is said that the majority the language of Ojibwe is verbs or linking verbs.

These are just some, in comparison.

Also in Anishnaabemowin, there is what is called Nendmowin (understanding)
then there is Zhaagnoshiimwin Nendmowin ('non native' understanding.)

Linguistically there is a huge difference based upon how each views the world.

Another difference is that English is a borrowed language from many others, right??
You know what they say 'mother tongue', well English did not develop out of natural evolution, it was first written to accomodate the merchant class. English has no mother. If you get ma drift.

 

[shijing]

being a speaker from a language that has survived orally for many thousands of years, some clear contrasts about the language of English can be observed.

The differences between languages can be very interesting :)

Another difference is that English is a borrowed language from many others, right??

If you mean that English has borrowed from other languages, that's right -- of course, that's the situation with most languages if their speakers have been in contact with speakers of other languages for any length of time.

You know what they say 'mother tongue', well English did not develop out of natural evolution, it was first written to accomodate the merchant class. English has no mother. If you get ma drift.

I'm not sure what you mean by "natural evolution" -- English seems to have developed in more or less the same way as all languages do (as far as I'm aware, anyway).

 

[waasekom]

You know what they say 'mother tongue', well English did not develop out of natural evolution, it was first written to accomodate the merchant class. English has no mother. If you get ma drift.

I'm not sure what you mean by "natural evolution" -- English seems to have developed in more or less the same way as all languages do (as far as I'm aware, anyway).

What I meant was that there is a severe difference between the two 'ways of being' and language reflects how you preceive the world around.
when I used that term I used it loosely that I shouldn't have because I was not aware of what it connotes.

Say for example animals. They can sense intention, but when the intentions that you have are separate from the way they preceive reality than they cannot perceive what you mean. If that puts it into context.

If not, maybe I should elaborate because there is a difference and I know that the reason things are the way they are in the current state of being; between many places of being (in concsciousness). I.e animal world, indigenous world, secular society, detached forms of information,

am I clearer?

 

[Laura]

am I clearer?

No. Obviously, language isn't helping you. Nor you it.

 

[waasekom]

I dont know how to translate something that is a living experience.

 

[waasekom]

am I clearer?

No. Obviously, language isn't helping you. Nor you it.

language is not an it.
that is another difference, between english mindset, and say language as acknowledged (through language) as a living process.
we are not separate from the livingness of langauge which is a form of expression, no matter the context( which is usually written).
The expression is a living process, which is separate from investing in things (like writing) that are not alive.

I think a saying that fits is The lesson is not greater than the student. Nor is the words more important than the meaning behind it.

 

[anart]

am I clearer?

No. Obviously, language isn't helping you. Nor you it.

language is not an it.
that is another difference, between english mindset, and say language as acknowledged (through language) as a living process.
we are not separate from the livingness of langauge which is a form of expression, no matter the context( which is usually written).
The expression is a living process, which is separate from investing in things (like writing) that are not alive.

I think a saying that fits is The lesson is not greater than the student. Nor is the words more important than the meaning behind it.

I think it's really interesting that you are so invested in the idea of language, yet you cannot communicate. Your posts thus far have been VERY difficult to follow. This is interesting coming from someone who is implying their own superiority in language and communication, don't you think? What if the reality of the situation is that your current understanding of language is incorrect? I mean, ultimately, isn't the proof in the pudding, and in this case, the pudding would be your ability to communicate clearly and concisely and get your points across flawlessly? You have, thus far in each thread in which you've posted, been unable to do that - so - perhaps it's worth considering the idea that you might not be seeing things as they are in this particular arena of information? Perhaps your identification with being 'Native' is part of the problem? It's just a suggestion - no offense is meant at all. You seem to be thinking quite seriously about these things, so your lack of ability to communicate would indicate a block of some sort - so - it's just a possibility that the block might be that identification?

Have you had a chance to read the Wave and Adventure Series yet?

 

[SolarMother]

All that you are attached to, all that you love,
All that you know, someday will be gone.

Knowing this, and that the world is your mind
Which you create, play in, and suffer from,
Is known as discrimination.

Discriminate between the Real and the Unreal,
The known is unreal and will come and go
So stay with the Unknown, the Unchanging, the Truth.

Papaji

Just like your quote above, waasekom--if you are attached to something, which the C's call 'a sacred cow' it will someday be gone, doing The Work. Not an easy thing. I don't know if you are attached to your language in this way, its just my 2 cents worth.

All languages have an origin that is rooted in our DNA...ancient. Feels like sound and light somehow. Something that is connected to our previous 4D/pre-fall more ethereal existence?
I don't know, but it seems that your way of speaking and the way you talk about your language and your tongue seems somehow to retain a sense of this, but when I read it, I cannot grasp it like I would like to. I wonder if you are able to get your words across eventually, in a more 'left-brained' way to balance it out and enable you to participate on this forum? It's a process.
I would like to know as well, if you have read any of The Wave materials.