Evangelicals and the ' Fight for Jesus' squad

[jacjon]

For those of you believing that Jesus Christ will come again, that good and evil will have an ultimate battle, that the Jews will again build the Temple and convert to Christianity, and that baptizing must be done by immersion, read no further.

For the rest, I wonder how many of us realize just how scary this mind bending process is??

As a principle, and as a believer in Jesus as our Lord, I admit I have to catch myself as I want to castigate and neutralize those who shamelessly preach this type of dogma to those searching for a better 'SOMETHING' in their lives. It strains my patience further when I recognize that a few of the 'spiritual leaders,' such as Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, have taken, in my opinion, the believe in Jesus Christ away from traditional values: ie: - that Christ was indeed born as the son of God, died for our sins and was resurrected to advance and sit on the right hand of that God. That belief in Him and confession our sins after being baptized ( not requiring immersion BTW ) will result in life everlasting.

Comtemporary evangelical thought seems to insist on its own interpretation of the New Testament. However, this process is not new and is practised in some rather highly focused, family oriented philosophies such as Mormonism. The difference lies, again in my opinion, in the seperation of church from state. Most modern, monotheistic religions keep politics away from preaching.

It would appear that this is just not the case with the recogizable Evangelical movement. Indeed, Mssrs. Falwell and Robertson seem all to quick to assimilate their flock into their personal political agenda. ( Was it Robertson or Falwell who recently called for an invasion and overthrow of Chavez's Venezula as his ( Chavez ) latest diatribe offended one of the other )

Now for the scary stuff. When you have a body - say 70 to 80 million souls - who will follow your sway without question you are BIG TIME fodder for the political machine. In years past the evangelical vote seemed to sway in favor of the Democrats but atfter Clinton ( God bless him ...... and my ancestors are rolling in their graves......) refused to go after ( read --invade Irag ) the neo-cons and the Lobby, including the Evangelicals, decided their time had come when G. Bush Jr. fell before them like a lamb at.....while you can imagine you own scenario. And the idea that our politcal agendas are again being dictated to not by representation through population but by those who believe themselves to be the esoteric can only increase the solidarity within which Bush, et al make decsions for us which will, sooner or later, change the world we live in.

I guess my concern is that freedom of religion is the right of ALL peoples. Because evangelical Christianity does not conform to my personal beliefs I must honor its right to exist ( as long as no laws are broken ) But.... and it's a BIG but....it is sooooo very scary to think a huge portion of our youth ( relatively it could be as high as 25% ) are being indoctinated in philosophies that are so foreign to the public good.

What can be done. Absolutely nothing.

And that my friends, it why it is so frightening.

jacjon

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

As a principle, and as a believer in Jesus as our Lord, I admit I have to catch myself as I want to castigate and neutralize those who shamelessly preach this type of dogma to those searching for a better 'SOMETHING' in their lives.

Why do you believe Jesus is anybody's Lord or even existed? Do you like the idea of being a pawn in a STS control hierarchy?

It strains my patience further when I recognize that a few of the 'spiritual leaders,' such as Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, have taken, in my opinion, the believe in Jesus Christ away from traditional values: ie: - that Christ was indeed born as the son of God, died for our sins and was resurrected to advance and sit on the right hand of that God. That belief in Him and confession our sins after being baptized ( not requiring immersion BTW ) will result in life everlasting.

Why does it strain your patience when someone questions things that are traditional?

it is sooooo very scary to think a huge portion of our youth ( relatively it could be as high as 25% ) are being indoctinated in philosophies that are so foreign to the public good.

I agree, religion is designed to control and suppress critical thought, to instill fear and blind devotion, and to create elitism which results in wars and divisions among mankind which allows them to be manipulated.

What can be done. Absolutely nothing.

I agree that nothing can be directly done in terms of us changing the world, but indirectly we could simply stand for truth and not believe anything and question all beliefs, and encourage others to do the same.

 

[jacjon]

As a principle, and as a believer in Jesus as our Lord, I admit I have to catch myself as I want to castigate and neutralize those who shamelessly preach this type of dogma to those searching for a better 'SOMETHING' in their lives.

Why do you believe Jesus is anybody's Lord or even existed? Do you like the idea of being a pawn in a STS control hierarchy?

STS ???? Well...I've fairly expressed my views in favor of my faith. Perhaps you can do the same, assuming you can conjure an opinion.

It strains my patience further when I recognize that a few of the 'spiritual leaders,' such as Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, have taken, in my opinion, the believe in Jesus Christ away from traditional values: ie: - that Christ was indeed born as the son of God, died for our sins and was resurrected to advance and sit on the right hand of that God. That belief in Him and confession our sins after being baptized ( not requiring immersion BTW ) will result in life everlasting.

Why does it strain your patience when someone questions things that are traditional?

Are we on the same page?? Falwell and Robertson are anything but traditional!!

it is sooooo very scary to think a huge portion of our youth ( relatively it could be as high as 25% ) are being indoctinated in philosophies that are so foreign to the public good.

I agree, religion is designed to control and suppress critical thought, to instill fear and blind devotion, and to create elitism which results in wars and divisions among mankind which allows them to be manipulated.

Not my religion

What can be done. Absolutely nothing.

I agree that nothing can be directly done in terms of us changing the world, but indirectly we could simply stand for truth and not believe anything and question all beliefs, and encourage others to do the same.

C'mon...state your point of view. You've used a lot of space and really haven't said anything

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

C'mon...state your point of view. You've used a lot of space and really haven't said anything.

I have said things - I've asked questions. What's wrong with that? My point of view is that to find truth one needs to let go of all beliefs, every last one, and instead start actually questioning reality. So if you aren't interested in truth, why are you on this forum?

STS ???? Well...I've fairly expressed my views in favor of my faith. Perhaps you can do the same, assuming you can conjure an opinion.

This forum is not about opinions, it's about collecting data and networking together to figure out the most probable truth.

Are we on the same page?? Falwell and Robertson are anything but traditional!!

That's what I said if you read it again. Do you assume that traditional equals correct?

Not my religion

If your religion relies on faith aka beliefs, then yes. Does it?

 

[jacjon]

C'mon...state your point of view. You've used a lot of space and really haven't said anything.

I have said things - I've asked questions. What's wrong with that? My point of view is that to find truth one needs to let go of all beliefs, every last one, and instead start actually questioning reality. So if you aren't interested in truth, why are you on this forum?

STS ???? Well...I've fairly expressed my views in favor of my faith. Perhaps you can do the same, assuming you can conjure an opinion.

This forum is not about opinions, it's about collecting data and networking together to figure out the most probable truth.

Fair enough. I'll try to follow that for our exchange; however, no promises further than that.
As well, I see some intrincic flaws in your base theory. More tomorrow.
jacjon

Are we on the same page?? Falwell and Robertson are anything but traditional!!

That's what I said if you read it again. Do you assume that traditional equals correct?

Not my religion

If your religion relies on faith aka beliefs, then yes. Does it?

 

[Argonaut]

As one who has escaped the shackles of fundamentalist Christian religion, I admittedly tend to empathize more with ScioAgapeOmnis's position. But I also get where jacjon is coming from. He may follow the Christian religion, but he doesn't agree with the domineering, controlling version of it that's being used by the Powers That Be. He makes a separation between "true" and "false" Christianity. But to ScioAgapeOmnis, Christianity is 100% false, and since it was invented as a control system, one can't follow it in any form without being under that control system. Your positions differ, which is fine. And you appear to be discussing them, which is also fine.

But I see an unfortunate thing starting here. Where we should be having civil discussion, I can tell that you two are REALLY rubbing one another the wrong way, tossing barely hidden barbs at each other with each post. And I sense a fight a-brewin'. So maybe we can nip this anger thing in the bud, and take this discussion in a healthier direction BEFORE it degenerates too far. As ScioAgapeOmnis stated, "This forum is not about opinions, it's about collecting data and networking together to figure out the most probable truth." As long as we stick to that concept, leaving riled-up emotions out of it, things should get back on track just fine.

 

[Ryan]

As a principle, and as a believer in Jesus as our Lord, I admit I have to catch myself as I want to castigate and neutralize those who shamelessly preach this type of dogma to those searching for a better 'SOMETHING' in their lives. It strains my patience further when I recognize that a few of the 'spiritual leaders,' such as Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, have taken, in my opinion, the believe in Jesus Christ away from traditional values: ie: - that Christ was indeed born as the son of God, died for our sins and was resurrected to advance and sit on the right hand of that God. That belief in Him and confession our sins after being baptized ( not requiring immersion BTW ) will result in life everlasting.

While I can see where you are coming from, you should be aware that monotheistic religions get very little leeway in this forum. It would facilitate discussion best if you could avoid such phrases as "Jesus as our Lord" and stick to facts. That being said, you have made some very valid points IMO.

I guess my concern is that freedom of religion is the right of ALL peoples. Because evangelical Christianity does not conform to my personal beliefs I must honor its right to exist ( as long as no laws are broken ) But.... and it's a BIG but....it is sooooo very scary to think a huge portion of our youth ( relatively it could be as high as 25% ) are being indoctinated in philosophies that are so foreign to the public good.

What can be done. Absolutely nothing.

Actually, there is something that can be done. Knowledge as to the history, purpose and effects of these religions can be made available to the public. While this is no guarantee that anything can be changed, it does respect the free will of both the "fanatical believers" and those who would choose to shed these illusions if given another option.

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

He makes a separation between "true" and "false" Christianity. But to ScioAgapeOmnis, Christianity is 100% false, and since it was invented as a control system, one can't follow it in any form without being under that control system.

I didn't say that. There are many truths in religion if you know how to weed for them. But they are mixed in with some of the biggest lies ever told.

But I see an unfortunate thing starting here. Where we should be having civil discussion, I can tell that you two are REALLY rubbing one another the wrong way, tossing barely hidden barbs at each other with each post.

I honestly don't think I tossed any hidden barbs. I admit I was a bit perturbed with jacjon's original reply:

C'mon...state your point of view. You've used a lot of space and really haven't said anything

and

Well...I've fairly expressed my views in favor of my faith. Perhaps you can do the same, assuming you can conjure an opinion.

Which, to me, seems like some clear barb tossin - why would I have difficulty conjuring an opinion? I realise he expressed his views in favor of his faith, and I questioned the reasons for the views. I hardly think that was a nonsensical waste of space! And I tried my best NOT to toss any sort of "barbs" at all, so if I did I apologize, but I'd like to know where you are picking up a barb please so I can prevent myself from doing this in the future.

 

[Cyre2067]

Has anyone seen Jesus Camp? It's a documentary that focuses on this very issue (militarizing christianity), and shows how children, young kids, 5, 6, 7 etc are happy to be training combat techniques as to be "god's army" in hopes they could "give their life to the lord".

I think this is the focus of jacjon's original post, that "good christians" feel that they have to be armed and ready to "kill for the lord".

Honestly the logic doesn't make sense, so i don't understand how one can arm himself, expect to commit murder, and think he was fulfilling gods will.

 

[Argonaut]

ScioAgapeOmnis,

I apologize for claiming that you thought Christianity is "100% false". It was bad wording on my part. I gathered from your statements that you view the Christian religion as essentially a control system created by the PTB, but that's actually worlds different from its tenets being 100% false.

I agree that the most blatant barbs came from jacjon, and maybe what I saw as "hidden" barbs from you were just my own misinterpretation. Here are the two statements of yours that I interpreted as hidden barbs, or at the very least somewhat provocative:

Do you like the idea of being a pawn in a STS control hierarchy?

(My POV - It's clear that jacjon doesn't consider himself an STS pawn, so how should he have responded to this?)

and

So if you aren't interested in truth, why are you on this forum?

(My POV - jacjon surely considers himself quite interested in truth, so again, how should he have responded?)

I'm definitely reading some frustration in these statements, but it seems that I'm wrong about them being malicious. So I apologize again.

Regarding the actual topic of the thread, I find it interesting how different perspectives lead to complete opposite conclusions about the role of the PTB in the Christian religion. While you (and I) see Christianity as created BY the PTB as a control system from the get-go, jacjon sees Christianty as a fundamentally true belief system that's been "hijacked" by the PTB and turned INTO a control system. One could say that his mind NEEDS to see the situation in this way, as he so strongly identifies with the basics of the Christian faith. To view the entire ball of wax as a corrupt system of control would be too huge of a paradigm shift for him at this point. Which I totally understand, because I basically WAS jacjon about 5 years ago when I first began leaving Christianity. I know how hard it is to give up that security blanket of "knowing" there's a loving Savior who answers your prayers and has a spot reserved in Heaven for you. But give it up I did. Maybe jacjon isn't ready to give it up. Or maybe he can somehow synthesize his beliefs with the truths discussed here and he'll do just fine. I could never manage such a balancing act, but maybe he can.

In any case, challenging each others' paradigms is what this forum is about. There are no sacred cows. So if jacjon chooses to get huffy when you question the Lordship of Jesus Christ, that's his personal issue. I was just hoping that both you and he could move beyond that and have a discussion. I do believe you can, Scio. But it remains to be seen whether jacjon can handle having his beliefs challenged. Here's hoping he can, as he seems to have good things to contribute.

 

[moonwalker]

I would like to know whether Jacjon holds the beliefs that Christ was indeed born as the son of God, died for our sins and was resurrected to advance and sit on the right hand of that God and that belief in Him and confession of our sins after being baptized will result in life everlasting.

If Jacjon does hold them beliefs then I can't see this thread going very far, but like Alderplax said if it's possible to synthesize the beliefs I stated above with the truths discussed here then I'm all ears.

 

[Nienna]

Honestly the logic doesn't make sense, so i don't understand how one can arm himself, expect to commit murder, and think he was fulfilling gods will.

Uh, Cyre, have you been able to read CofZ? It says in the book that in the Bible, in writing, the Chrisians state that they take the Old Testament to be as valid as the New Testament. I am paraphrasing so the words might not be exact, but the meaning is clear. The Old Testament is taken from the original books written by the Levites with a little twisting of the context in the translation into English (of course, this is according to Reed). But, as I remember the Bible has some pretty violent content that has to do with God ordering his followers to destroy entire towns, kill everybody in them and take anything else that is of value for their own. And this is done over and over again in the Old Testament. It is only the New Testament that love and goodwill are the theme.

Lynne

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

ScioAgapeOmnis,

I agree that the most blatant barbs came from jacjon, and maybe what I saw as "hidden" barbs from you were just my own misinterpretation. Here are the two statements of yours that I interpreted as hidden barbs, or at the very least somewhat provocative:

Do you like the idea of being a pawn in a STS control hierarchy?

(My POV - It's clear that jacjon doesn't consider himself an STS pawn, so how should he have responded to this?)

I based that one 2 things. First, he said Jesus was his Lord - isn't that a direct reference to a STS hierachy of control where some "God" is perceived to be the one in charge aka "Lord"? Also, he obviously chose to hold this belief, and I know that when you assume or believe, you surrender your free will - and if what you believe was created by someone else, you surrender your free will to that person/entity. That, in my understanding, simply means becoming a pawn in a STS control hierarchy. I know what I asked was kinda a loaded question since it assumes that he IS part of an STS hierarchy, but that is not a baseless assumption because it is based on what he said, aka, he has a Lord and he blindly accepts certain things as truth without question.

So if you aren't interested in truth, why are you on this forum?

(My POV - jacjon surely considers himself quite interested in truth, so again, how should he have responded?)

But if he has beliefs, meaning, he assumes certain things to be true without question, is that not a direct opposite of what "seeking truth" means? Unless you mean he only seeks truth in some areas, but holds on to other sacred cows in other areas.

I'm definitely reading some frustration in these statements, but it seems that I'm wrong about them being malicious. So I apologize again.

No worries, I know that malicious does not necessarily have to be consciously malicious, your predator mind or ego or some other subconscious impulse can make you say something that is essentially a "barb" without you even realising you did that. So I mean, knowing that I had some emotional reaction to jacjon's original reply, I was definitely open to the possibility that although I tried my best not to react/respond mechanically in any way, something might've slipped through anyway.

Regarding the actual topic of the thread, I find it interesting how different perspectives lead to complete opposite conclusions about the role of the PTB in the Christian religion. While you (and I) see Christianity as created BY the PTB as a control system from the get-go, jacjon sees Christianty as a fundamentally true belief system that's been "hijacked" by the PTB and turned INTO a control system.

I actually don't exactly think that either. It seems to me that religion wasn't created by one being or one person for one purpose. It's a compilation of many things, with many different intentions, many different purposes on many levels all in one place. So while I perceive the entirety of religion itself as a control mechanism, the very same things that are used for control within that religion could be profound esoteric truths that were distorted in meaning intentionally. Like if Jesus says "I and the Father are One" - is he talking about himself being as THE son of God and/or God incarnate, or is this a general reference to the unity of all creation, the idea of God being inseparate from us all? Well the former interpretation leads to elitism and control structure, the latter does not (although in the New Age religion, the latter concept of "we're all one" is used to disempower by distorting it as well). But although I cannot state with certainty that the "initial intention" of religion was for control (because the question I'd have, if it was a compilation of many things from many sources, is there even such a thing as the initial intention?), the overall effect is one of control of the mind, because that's what it is used for.

One could say that his mind NEEDS to see the situation in this way, as he so strongly identifies with the basics of the Christian faith.

Well he might say the same thing about us, maybe for whatever reason, we NEED to see religion as something that was designed from the start to be a control mechanism instead of as having been corrupted along the way? But certainly parts of it were designed from the start as a control mechanism. Maybe not necessarily all parts though, but certainly the parts that promote unquestioned blind faith in what they say.

Or maybe he can somehow synthesize his beliefs with the truths discussed here and he'll do just fine. I could never manage such a balancing act, but maybe he can.

To some degree I think it's possible, but I mean if you're gonna question political things and see the lies there, why not take it further and question religion as well? After all, they are very similar, so if you can SEE the lies in one, it is not a huge stretch to see the same exact kinds of lies that use the same hooks etc in the other, osit.

In any case, challenging each others' paradigms is what this forum is about. There are no sacred cows. So if jacjon chooses to get huffy when you question the Lordship of Jesus Christ, that's his personal issue. I was just hoping that both you and he could move beyond that and have a discussion.

But if there are no sacred cows as you say, why should we just ignore Jac's sacred cows? Jac wants to discuss sacred cows that HE considered silly that someone else has, but in the same sentence he proclaims to have sacred cows that are just as silly, so it just seemed like a very good reason to point that out and question them. We can certainly just "move beyond that and have a discussion", but it's kinda difficult to discuss someone else's sacred cows with someone who has the exact same kinds of sacred cows. It just seems hypocritical.

 

[jacjon]

As one who has escaped the shackles of fundamentalist Christian religion, I admittedly tend to empathize more with ScioAgapeOmnis's position. But I also get where jacjon is coming from. He may follow the Christian religion, but he doesn't agree with the domineering, controlling version of it that's being used by the Powers That Be. He makes a separation between "true" and "false" Christianity. But to ScioAgapeOmnis, Christianity is 100% false, and since it was invented as a control system, one can't follow it in any form without being under that control system. Your positions differ, which is fine. And you appear to be discussing them, which is also fine.

But I see an unfortunate thing starting here. Where we should be having civil discussion, I can tell that you two are REALLY rubbing one another the wrong way, tossing barely hidden barbs at each other with each post. And I sense a fight a-brewin'. So maybe we can nip this anger thing in the bud, and take this discussion in a healthier direction BEFORE it degenerates too far. As ScioAgapeOmnis stated, "This forum is not about opinions, it's about collecting data and networking together to figure out the most probable truth." As long as we stick to that concept, leaving riled-up emotions out of it, things should get back on track just fine.

Very percise Alderpax. I was, and admitted as much to ScioA late last evening, just spewing words. Guess I thought ( for a sceond ) that it was a competition
A larger understanding of things is, and has got to be, the mandate here.
However, and I will address this directly through ScioA responses to me, as Descartes said --Cogito ergo sum. Although knowledge gained aposteriori is fundamentally based on facts and experience I beleive it to be a fair assumption that without reason, without belief Man would not has prospered. When I think of opinion I think of this. I would much prefer to engage in dialogue which allows me ALL my facilties. Besides --- without opinion how can we possibly know the entire truth????for

 

[jacjon]

I would like to know whether Jacjon holds the beliefs that Christ was indeed born as the son of God, died for our sins and was resurrected to advance and sit on the right hand of that God and that belief in Him and confession of our sins after being baptized will result in life everlasting.

If Jacjon does hold them beliefs then I can't see this thread going very far, but like Alderplax said if it's possible to synthesize the beliefs I stated above with the truths discussed here then I'm all ears.

Hey Moonwalker... Somehow I'm being made out to be exactly what I'm railing against. Yes, I am a Christian and have the FAITH in Jesus Christ. Did he rise through resurrection....I'm afraid I'm as skeptical as most men of reason. Do I believe in an afterlife, I have no knowledge, either a posteriori or apriori ( and consequently, without a basis to formulate one, I ahve no OPINION!!! Does that mean I can't discuss it?? I hope not, or I really am in the wrong FORUM.
pLEASE DON'T FORGET, THIS THREAD STARTED WITHMPlease don't forget, this thread started because of my opinions, based on the facts, of the ABC's new coverage of the - and I paraphrase - " Warriors for Jesus."
The FACTS are that millions of people are being 'cultizised" (my word) by those with extradordinary intentions.
I thought the preface to my "rhetoric??? " swas axiomatic. Apparently not.
Doesn't mean we can't chew it over!!