External Considering and Good Manners

Samuel

Jedi
Great post, Laura. I think that we all need to be reminded once in awhile that we're all in this together and being kind and considerate of others (the human ones, anyway) makes for a better world. Your post kind of matches Ark's Quantum Quark, the one with the owls and subtitle, "All we need is love." As I was reading some of the posts I thought of a saying that I read sometime ago which I think is appropriate here: People will forget what you said or what you did, but they will never forget how you made them feel.
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Dakota said:
When I worked in public service like a secretary I was obliged to wear skirts, heals and make up. People were very kind to me, more than when I wearing pants and when I'm without make up. Because I don't like hypocrisy i was very mad in this situation. One of the main reason why I left such a good opportunity (at least from ordinary thinking) is because I felt like I'm an object and not a person.
I can remember feeling this way with similar experiences. You just get so frustrated because you want to be accepted and treated as a human being with feelings, etc, and not as an object. The thing is, that amounts to demanding that others fulfill your requirements. It also blocks you from your real power which is to know yourself and your own value while at the same time utilizing what IS as your "strategic enclosure." I finally got to the place where I could do "what was expected" while knowing why I was doing it, and it no longer bothered me. If others wanted to think of me as an "object", fine... that meant I knew something they didn't.

Dakota said:
I like to wear ties (don't ware anymore a lot because now I live in small village where I try to leave good opinion because of that, also, depends where I will be working at season time) and pants, pretty much like a man. But also I like to wear heals, dresses and everyting like a woman. But, the main problem when you are a woman is that you are on the spot. I don't like attention, not anymore. So, my questions are:

1. Do you think that woman should dress like a woman because society ask you to do that. Obviously (at least in my country, Croatia) that will help you building your social and economic status?
If you want to be free to live your life without being hassled (which drains energy), yes.

Dakota said:
2. Where is boundaries with external consideration when someone is rude to you?
Depends on the situation.

Dakota said:
3. Do you think that is good to visit like others social events, church and funerals (nobody loves funerals but some people really blame me because I avoid this kind of events).
Only if it shows respect and consideration for those you care about or who can make life difficult/easy for you.

Dakota said:
How much of "bad things" should I put up from my boss to be considered external consideration?
Depends on the specifics of the situation.

A poem by Rudyard Kipling has some ideas that are useful to consider and modify as needed:

If

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;

If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;

If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,

If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!
 

Mr.Cyan

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Many thanks as well Laura for the posts - on the crucial topic of EC, and the virtues of being polite, kind, well-mannered and considerate to others no matter how easy or difficult the situation is. It is amazing sometimes how common sense behaviors are lost to many people. I guess there are some that have truly no idea because of their upbringing (or it could be pathological), and there are some that adopt it, especially the ones living in densely populated cities/capitals where the de facto mode is one of selfishness, and self centeredness. I think Andromeda's post in this topic on the "instinctual" and "learned" good manners are a good description. I guess it could be said to be a state of constantly practicing situational awareness, and empathizing - while behaving well mannered and making decisions for the collective good of the group or situation. This may or may not be natural to some, but can definitely be practiced and improved upon osit.

"If" by Kipling remains one of my all time favorite poems too - never fails to amaze every time I read it :)
 

Carl

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Mr.Cyan said:
Many thanks as well Laura for the posts - on the crucial topic of EC, and the virtues of being polite, kind, well-mannered and considerate to others no matter how easy or difficult the situation is. It is amazing sometimes how common sense behaviors are lost to many people. I guess there are some that have truly no idea because of their upbringing (or it could be pathological), and there are some that adopt it, especially the ones living in densely populated cities/capitals where the de facto mode is one of selfishness, and self centeredness. I think Andromeda's post in this topic on the "instinctual" and "learned" good manners are a good description. I guess it could be said to be a state of constantly practicing situational awareness, and empathizing - while behaving well mannered and making decisions for the collective good of the group or situation. This may or may not be natural to some, but can definitely be practiced and improved upon osit.
Well said. It is a difficult thing to practice in a city environment where the default mode is to don a set of headphones and gaze into a smartphone. Also, I have found that too much computer use tends to dampen my social skills. This is all the more reason to practice it whenever we get chance - with friends, at work, or just with the cashier.

It's all the more effective to consciously practice consideration when we are stressed, agitated or depressed. I think it was Gurdjieff who said anyone can be a Christian after a cup of coffee. It's easy to be considerate when we feel good; it is something else to be considerate when we have internal struggle.
 

Alada

The Living Force
Carl said:
It's all the more effective to consciously practice consideration when we are stressed, agitated or depressed. I think it was Gurdjieff who said anyone can be a Christian after a cup of coffee. It's easy to be considerate when we feel good; it is something else to be considerate when we have internal struggle.
Thanks for that, I don't remember seeing it before, very funny but so true! It's an excellent point Carl, we can be nice when we're feeling 'nice' but otherwise no. Which links to what Mr.Cyan said about situational awareness I think. To generalise it: when we're in a state of situation awareness we can have external consideration, when we're in a sleep state (because don't feel 'nice') we have only internal considering.
 

T.C.

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Alada said:
Carl said:
It's all the more effective to consciously practice consideration when we are stressed, agitated or depressed. I think it was Gurdjieff who said anyone can be a Christian after a cup of coffee. It's easy to be considerate when we feel good; it is something else to be considerate when we have internal struggle.
Thanks for that, I don't remember seeing it before, very funny but so true! It's an excellent point Carl, we can be nice when we're feeling 'nice' but otherwise no. Which links to what Mr.Cyan said about situational awareness I think. To generalise it: when we're in a state of situation awareness we can have external consideration, when we're in a sleep state (because don't feel 'nice') we have only internal considering.
Catching up with the latest session thread today, helped me to reaffirm what the Work is about for me. It boils down to the fact that we can't Do. And Working on ourselves is the means to that end - being able to Do.

Remember the old post by Art about attaining that 'one little victory'. When we self observe for long enough, we can begin to predict how we're going to react in certain situations and we can trace back the sources of those reactions step by step until we catch that first arising of negativity or confluence or dissociation, and we can actually choose to change what our emotional response is going to be to it. This is waking up and having self-control. And so, if we can become a master of this process, we'll never be in a situation where we're in a state of sleep that only produces internal considering. If we can only really be externally considerate when we are in a philosophically happier and balanced state, then the answer is to consciously foster that state by learning what causes its opposite, and nipping it in the bud.

(Here's the thread I was referring to: http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=2832.0)
 

obyvatel

The Living Force
[quote author=TC]
If we can only really be externally considerate when we are in a philosophically happier and balanced state, then the answer is to consciously foster that state by learning what causes its opposite, and nipping it in the bud.
[/quote]

I think manners are best practiced irrespective of how we feel internally. This builds the muscle to practice external considering. Being happy and balanced is desirable - but not a condition to practice external considering.
 

Alada

The Living Force
obyvatel said:
[quote author=TC]
If we can only really be externally considerate when we are in a philosophically happier and balanced state, then the answer is to consciously foster that state by learning what causes its opposite, and nipping it in the bud.
I think manners are best practiced irrespective of how we feel internally. This builds the muscle to practice external considering. Being happy and balanced is desirable - but not a condition to practice external considering.
[/quote]

I agree, being happy and balanced is indeed desirable as a general aim but as we know isn't that easy to achieve, goes into wishful thinking / imagination even if we try force it as an aim – see new age fluff for example.

Some of the most valuable lessons in external consideration for me have come through learning to practice it when I am absolutely seething inside. Practicing it with the people that really know how to push my buttons. If you can learn how to do that, to keep control when your at boiling point internally it can show you many interesting things both about yourself and how the other person 'works' you. External consideration under those conditions brings with it relief, and so a happier more balanced state.

So maybe think about it that way around, that you don't have to be happy first in order to learn how to be happy.
 

T.C.

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Alada said:
obyvatel said:
[quote author=TC]
If we can only really be externally considerate when we are in a philosophically happier and balanced state, then the answer is to consciously foster that state by learning what causes its opposite, and nipping it in the bud.
I think manners are best practiced irrespective of how we feel internally. This builds the muscle to practice external considering. Being happy and balanced is desirable - but not a condition to practice external considering.
I agree, being happy and balanced is indeed desirable as a general aim but as we know isn't that easy to achieve, goes into wishful thinking / imagination even if we try force it as an aim – see new age fluff for example.

Some of the most valuable lessons in external consideration for me have come through learning to practice it when I am absolutely seething inside. Practicing it with the people that really know how to push my buttons. If you can learn how to do that, to keep control when your at boiling point internally it can show you many interesting things both about yourself and how the other person 'works' you. External consideration under those conditions brings with it relief, and so a happier more balanced state.

So maybe think about it that way around, that you don't have to be happy first in order to learn how to be happy.
[/quote]

Yes, sorry guys, bad choice of words on my part. What I really meant was, "If we're better enabled to be externally considerate when we are in a philosophically happier and balanced state..."

Thanks for highlighting that.
 

Dakota

Jedi Council Member
loreta said:
This is my point of vue, very personal. Maybe I am totally wrong! Me too I am learning. :)
Thank you loreta for your very practical advices, it is much easier (at least for me) to understand someone point of view when someone explain through his experience.
This days I have found my self some job (just for the short time) with people they are pretty much normal (I have worked with them and last year, we never have any confrontation). I'm trying to practice external consideration. I have noticed that it is very easy to jump in bad talking about someone else. Vampire stuff! It is almost like I have to stop my self from talking, just for talking. If I fail in that, I'm very tired when I come home. Sometime I'm very mad at my self because of that because obviously I don't need bad enivorment to become vampire. So much more to learn about my self.

Buddy said:
If I may ask a couple of preliminary questions, then I would ask:
Thank you for asking. It is great to see different perspective on my situation.

Buddy said:
1) What do people seem to be reacting to most when they behave so rudely? Is it mostly the way you dress, the way you look as a woman, the way you speak or avoid social functions? Is it something else, specifically? IOW, is the rudeness you have to deal with all related to the same thing or is it about so many different things that it seems to much to keep track of and doesn't really happen very often?
I don't remember the time when I dressed like a woman. Maybe when I worked like secretary in public service (20 years ago) it was the longest time that I have dressed like a woman. My boss was very aggressive in attention to seduce me. He even chase me through the office. After that job I worked like a waitress and also experience some bad situation. One guy with a machine gun (this was a time when war in Croatia was still active) came to me like is gonna rape me. But I start to scream and acting like I'm crazy. Happilly that work and he withdraw. There is many situation and I really think that this two in enough to explain my experience with men. If I'm acting like a woman my experience is that they wanna seduce me and if I acting like a boy (and dress like that) that they found me like I'm their good buddy. Then I prefer to act like a boy even I have also experience some bad situation because of that. For example, when I lived in the town many times I'm been ask am I girl or boy. When I asked them why you asking, why that is matter. What you gonna do when you found out that, many times I get very bad answer like:"I want to see in which hole I'm gonna f...." (apologize to be rude, but it was interpretion).
I think that I'm very culture person, I love when people feel happy in my company, that helped me a lot in my life, because in that way I have avoided many bad situation. But before I have always fight for my right, I didn't care how big the guy is, now I avoid this kind of situation, waste of time, energy and I don't have to prove anything.

Buddy said:
2) What was your boss being rude about? Was it general rudeness as if he just hates women or something, or does he rant about the same thing over and over? What do you mean by "bad things"? Is that something you would feel comfortable talking about?
I hope that I gave you answers on your questions in my last post. If I didn't answer any your questions, apologize, English is not my mature language.

Buddy said:
Since you're main question is about External Consideration, answers would help me to give you better feedback on that question, I think. The rest of the subjects you ask about, like funerals and boundaries, I will try to give helpful answers to based on your reply...if you will understand that my thoughts are not based on familiarity with Croatian culture or many details of your personal situation.
Two years ago I have move to live in small village. Working only through the season, and in the winter time I don't see anyone else but my friend with whom I living and they parents. For me that is enough. I don't like other people, not anymore. I don't attend on any social activities, just working sometime if someone ask me to.
I know that people will always talk, why not, everyone has a right to do that but when I start to read about the Work I want to change my self, to be better human bean. In last session C's said:

A: For those who find themselves in a life situation that is less than desirable or optimal, small daily acts that declare their affinity for another reality will accumulate and trigger a phase transition.

And I want to grab any opportunity to be more candidate for STO. Also, I love to be good (even I still learning what "good" really means).
 

Buddy

The Living Force
Thank you, Dakota. Your answers were just right. I think everyone offered some really good feedback and, considering your latest input, my mind turns naturally to what Laura said. I hope you find that helpful. :)
 

Dakota

Jedi Council Member
mabar said:
Regarding the second question, I used to have outburst quite often, was angry at life, one of the books I first bought regarding that was about limits, end since ever since, I had been working with that, fortunately, I had reduced quite a lot, my outbursts, most of the time, emotions/unconscious betrayed me, and think about my lack of external consideration later, it should be before. When some one is rude, I think boundaries should remain, and express it without being driven by emotions, something that had been quite difficult for me to do. It helps to breath. Also, as Loreta mentioned, depends on the situation.
This summer I been working with some really "crazy" people. I wrote about it in the post: https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,39204.0.html
After the season I fought that I have learned some really good lessons. Now, I'm not sure. Then I fought that this people are vampires and it is better for me to stay away. But their behave is not unusual, my it is. I wanted to do everything regularly, through standard and etc. It is not matter am I professional or not, I have to adapt to survive or at least to have better surviving.
I have realized this when I start to work on this new job and realize that is not important what is my story what I have experienced on my last job, because people think that I'm not obedient, that I cannot suffer "little bit".This is not "my" world and I want to leave this as soon as I can (even that is STS thinking - wishing), I need to adopt to them, not be mad or something else because they behave STS.

mabar said:
For the last one, ... I do not like either funerals, they make me uncomfortable, awkward, and do not know how to give condolences, lack of practice I think, but I had learned that those closed people/family members, friends, do appreciate it. And, sometimes one/I do not do what we/I 'precisely' want. Those kind of events, are important -mostly- for the people around us, and, personally, I want to keep those relationships, that's why I keep going if I am invited. My mother sometimes invites me to church, she feels fine to be with my company in church, she and I had a lot of arguments before regarding church and religion, now she understands and respects me, so I go because I want to, and do the sitting, kneeling, standing, going with the flow, except with prayers, sometimes I found myself repeating mechanically as I did years ago, except the Holy Father that used to have conflicts before, instead I say -not loud, though- the POTS.
Thank you for sharing your opinion about this. For me, this one will be so hard. I used to be Christian. Now I despise the Church. But they run good business (at least from STS view and for short time). I didn't think about this for years and I just realized how much anger I have because of their fraud. :shock:

About funeral's: My mother has died when I was 18 years old. Even then that was just a charade for me. In so complex Universe someone found funeral, putting the body in the hole, like something important and that has higher purpose . For me that is like spitting in the "face of Universe". I know that people need some form of saying good bye, but I have never felt that my mother is really gone from me. She is in me, with me. Or maybe I'm just hate funerals because I still didn't deal with that pain. I don't know, will see.
 

Dakota

Jedi Council Member
Dear Laura,
first of all, thank you for answering on my post. I don't know about others but getting reply from you it felt like great honor. I'm sure that your role of teacher and guide is not easy, I can't imagine how much you got on your shoulder but what can you do, you are a great mother ;). Maybe this sound like flattery but it is not. I just want to let you know that when you feeling down that you should remember that their is so many people there are so grateful and happy because of your existence. Before I found the Work I felt like I just wander on this planet. When I think of C's and you I'm feeling light in my heart. That is VERY comforting and gives me hope that I could live another life if I learn continuously. :)

Laura said:
It also blocks you from your real power which is to know yourself
because I have some form of split personality it is hard for me to understand who really I'm. Should I be the one that could have easier future or someone who makes me feeling comfortable or both, depends from situation.

Laura said:
and your own value while at the same time utilizing what IS as your "strategic enclosure."
This forum is really labyrinth, I just discovered many topics about this subject. Thank you.

Laura said:
I finally got to the place where I could do "what was expected" while knowing why I was doing it, and it no longer bothered me. If others wanted to think of me as an "object", fine... that meant I knew something they didn't.
Only one person with whom I'm comfortable to be female is the one that I'm living with. But, the rest is terrifying for me. Probably nasty program that has something to do with my childhood. Even Chu was very helpfull with giving me good name of psychologist I cannot found a strength to deal with that.

Dakota said:
1. Do you think that woman should dress like a woman because society ask you to do that. Obviously (at least in my country, Croatia) that will help you building your social and economic status?
Laura said:
If you want to be free to live your life without being hassled (which drains energy), yes.
Uff!

Laura said:
A poem by Rudyard Kipling has some ideas that are useful to consider and modify as needed:
This song need more re-reading even English is some one nature language and for me needs even more.
It reminds me of some glitch of moments when I'm feeling enough and full.

Thank you for the song. It will be powerfull tool like "Prayer of the Soul" when I need guide.
 

Keit

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Dakota said:
About funeral's: My mother has died when I was 18 years old. Even then that was just a charade for me. In so complex Universe someone found funeral, putting the body in the hole, like something important and that has higher purpose . For me that is like spitting in the "face of Universe". I know that people need some form of saying good bye, but I have never felt that my mother is really gone from me. She is in me, with me. Or maybe I'm just hate funerals because I still didn't deal with that pain. I don't know, will see.
I am very sorry, Dakota, that you had such a difficult life and such a trauma. It isn't easy at all to lose a parent at such an age (or any age for that matter). From "being a woman" perspective, don't know what kind of relationship you had with your mother until then, but losing her also probably prevented you from seeing and learning about womanhood in a more mature way. For example, I had a very turbulent relationship with my mother during my childhood (to put it mildly), but still got to learn things, to see how "being a woman" is not only an anatomical peculiarity, but a unique way of experiencing this reality.

In my specific case I went through a period of despising the fact of being a woman and wanting to spend time only with boys, thinking that only they understand me. I was a tomboy in childhood, and even after that was never "ladylike" and jeans was my usual wear. But then, I was also extremely traumatized and also extremely angry. Angry toward the universe. and so probably one of the ways to deal with this anger and pain was to reject the very thing that in the end turned out to be healing. I also was like a rebellious and opinionated teenager (well into my 20's by then), refusing to play "by the rules" and not keeping my mouth shut, and as a result creating a lot of problems, primarily for myself.

It's true that women in many places still have it much harder in this world than men. Women need to deal with daily objectification, and in many cases even real danger of some sort of violence. But what I grew to understand after I started on the path toward inner healing, that accepting oneself and utilizing one's abilities and properties can be a very empowering and fun thing too. And I am certainly not talking only about appearance.

Bottom line is, after a long process I've reached a point where I could be a "team player" to a degree on a daily job and without causing problems, and still maintain my own personal and unique view on things. :) They just didn't know about it for the most part. ;) But this is when I felt that I was beginning to mature. And the road is still long, actually.

On one hand it sounds counter intuitive (especially to an immature teenage mind) that self-discipline provides more freedom, but that exactly what happens. Don't know if you heard about it, but there is a saying about training horses, that they should be "broken" first. Meaning, that in order to utilize all the potential, the wild part should be tamed. Not because it is bad, but because only chaos comes from uncontrolled running horses.
 

Windmill knight

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Dakota said:
About funeral's: My mother has died when I was 18 years old. Even then that was just a charade for me. In so complex Universe someone found funeral, putting the body in the hole, like something important and that has higher purpose . For me that is like spitting in the "face of Universe". I know that people need some form of saying good bye, but I have never felt that my mother is really gone from me. She is in me, with me. Or maybe I'm just hate funerals because I still didn't deal with that pain. I don't know, will see.
I think funerals are mostly a social event designed to help the circle of family and friends get used to the fact that one of them is no longer there. I understand that you say that it may be meaningless for you, and I think it is ok if you feel that way. But because it has meaning for a lot of people we care about, then it becomes meaningful to us too (indirectly), and we can still take part in the event with genuine respect for it. Isn't that what external consideration is about? We recognize that other people are different from us, so we adapt to what is important to them, because they are important to us.

The same could be said about weddings. One could argue that they are just a party in which a piece of paper is signed, and that it says nothing about the real quality of the relationship of the couple. But again, it is important for the social group, and for the couple to make a public statement about how they feel for each other and their commitment. So even if one doesn't believe in weddings, one can still take part in them respectfully and even enjoy them.

Through personal experience I can say that such events do change your perspective about the people involved, even if you think in very liberal or dismissive terms about them!
 
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