Fear Of The Abyss - Aleta Edwards

[dugdeep]

Hi 11light11, and welcome to the forum :)

It's customary for people new to the forum to post a brief introduction on the Newbies board. It doesn't need to be detailed, but just give a brief idea of some of your background and how you found the forum. You can always take a look at some of the other intros to see how it's done.

You can find people discussing today's SOTT Talk Radio show in this thread.

Looking forward to your participation :)

 

[11light11]

Hi dugdeep,

Sorry to start my time off here with a faux pas! I followed the link and posted in the newbies section -- thanks for the invitation to share some about myself. Thanks as well for letting me know there's a separate thread discussing the "Fear of the Abyss" interview!

Cheers!

Take care now,
Michele

 

[SovereignDove]

I have been reading 'Fear of the Abyss' after it was suggested to me in another thread. FWIW, there appears to be similarities in what Aleta Edwards calls the Abyss, and splitting from Martha Stout's 'Myth of Sanity'. These are some quotes from the two books that led me to think this. Am I understanding this interrelatedness/connection correctly? Does a child's creating of the Abyss lead to a child creating a more separate dissociated state(that they are not conscious of)?

Fear of the Abyss

If the child tucks away the parts of himself he dislikes, and denies they exist, he may create a hidden place deep inside of himself to contain those ideas and feelings. As he ages, these feelings and ideas develop more fully into his own, unique Abyss.

Myth of Sanity

But the part of her consciousness that she thinks of as herself was not there; it was split off, put aside, and therefore in some sense protected. And because herself had not been there, her self could not remember what had happened to her during much of her childhood.

Because children dissociate readily even in ordinary circumstances, when they encounter traumatic situations, they easily split their consciousness into pieces, often for extended periods of time. The self is put aside and hidden.

But through the years of intensive use, the self-protective strategy has developed a hair trigger. The adult whom the child has become now experiences dissociate reactions to levels of stress that probably would not cause another person to dissociate.

I apologize if this is noise or has already been covered before. I am going to look at the Splitting as a Symptom of Internal Considering thread: http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,31760.0.html
and see if my questions are answered there.

 

[Psalehesost]

Splitting - having unintegrated views of others, of life, and oneself; dividing the world into black and white - is very much part of what Aleta Edwards discusses in the book. Chapter 5 covers the underlying theory of how this develops. However, what you quote from Myth of Sanity, as I understand it, is not really about splitting in this rather specific sense - it is about dissociation. "Splitting" is a standard term with a specific meaning, but informally, dissociation may also be called "splitting off" things, although the meaning is not the same. Still, your quotes show a parallel interesting in its own right: Stout's discussion of dissociation and the repression of the Abyss. That parallel can be extended, since the early experiences causing the developent of an Abyss and PCS issues can be traumatic - hence their effects on the developing child - and so also cause dissociation to varying extents.

In the splitting thread, Fear of The Abyss was discussed in these posts.

 

[obyvatel]

Hi SovereignDove,
You do not not need to apologize for asking questions. These are important and complex topics and even if they are covered in different places, it is worthwhile to ask these questions and revisit and check our understanding of it from time to time.

I have been reading 'Fear of the Abyss' after it was suggested to me in another thread. FWIW, there appears to be similarities in what Aleta Edwards calls the Abyss, and splitting from Martha Stout's 'Myth of Sanity'. These are some quotes from the two books that led me to think this. Am I understanding this interrelatedness/connection correctly? Does a child's creating of the Abyss lead to a child creating a more separate dissociated state(that they are not conscious of)?

In my current understanding, dissociation is the more general phenomenon and the PCS personality that Aleta Edwards describes is a special case of personality development as a result of dissociative processes and other factors like inherited characteristics and specific environmental conditions. PCS people do not suffer from DID (dissociative identity disorder) which could be a more extreme outcome of trauma and dissociation. Also PCS people tend to take more than their fair share of responsibility in life as a way to prevent themselves becoming a bad person whose image is formed in the unconscious and forms part of their "abyss". In contrast there are many other personality styles who avoid taking responsibility for things they would in all fairness be responsible due in part to early trauma and dissociation. So the way PCS people react in life to unconsciously defend themselves from their abyss is different from the coping mechanism used by other types.

fwiw

 

[SovereignDove]

Splitting - having unintegrated views of others, of life, and oneself; dividing the world into black and white - is very much part of what Aleta Edwards discusses in the book. Chapter 5 covers the underlying theory of how this develops. However, what you quote from Myth of Sanity, as I understand it, is not really about splitting in this rather specific sense - it is about dissociation. "Splitting" is a standard term with a specific meaning, but informally, dissociation may also be called "splitting off" things, although the meaning is not the same. Still, your quotes show a parallel interesting in its own right: Stout's discussion of dissociation and the repression of the Abyss. That parallel can be extended, since the early experiences causing the developent of an Abyss and PCS issues can be traumatic - hence their effects on the developing child - and so also cause dissociation to varying extents.

In the splitting thread, Fear of The Abyss was discussed in these posts.

Thanks for pinpointing where this is discussed in the thread. I think I was associating the meaning of dissociating and splitting too closely. I see the difference now from both your's and obyvatel's posts.

Hi SovereignDove,
You do not not need to apologize for asking questions. These are important and complex topics and even if they are covered in different places, it is worthwhile to ask these questions and revisit and check our understanding of it from time to time.

I have been reading 'Fear of the Abyss' after it was suggested to me in another thread. FWIW, there appears to be similarities in what Aleta Edwards calls the Abyss, and splitting from Martha Stout's 'Myth of Sanity'. These are some quotes from the two books that led me to think this. Am I understanding this interrelatedness/connection correctly? Does a child's creating of the Abyss lead to a child creating a more separate dissociated state(that they are not conscious of)?

In my current understanding, dissociation is the more general phenomenon and the PCS personality that Aleta Edwards describes is a special case of personality development as a result of dissociative processes and other factors like inherited characteristics and specific environmental conditions. PCS people do not suffer from DID (dissociative identity disorder) which could be a more extreme outcome of trauma and dissociation. Also PCS people tend to take more than their fair share of responsibility in life as a way to prevent themselves becoming a bad person whose image is formed in the unconscious and forms part of their "abyss". In contrast there are many other personality styles who avoid taking responsibility for things they would in all fairness be responsible due in part to early trauma and dissociation. So the way PCS people react in life to unconsciously defend themselves from their abyss is different from the coping mechanism used by other types.

fwiw

Thanks obyvatel, this is much clearer now. I had been thinking that the abyss(or fear of becoming it) was more conscious than it is in the PCS personality.

 

[SovereignDove]

Another quote from 'Fear of the Abyss', in chapter ten, helped to clarify for me the difference between the conscious abyss and the unconscious abyss. I bolded the relevant part, and when reading it was like a lightbulb went on in my mind.

The Abyss, then, can be a dreaded other that forms a hidden part of a person’s self-image. A self-image does not have to be accurate, but it nonetheless has a huge influence over the personality. The self-image that represents a dreaded other is defended against by the spokes of the wheel, preventing self-awareness and further emotional growth. Besides a dreaded other, the Abyss can also be a self-image based on how a person was described or made to feel as a child - a cruel, distorted vision of oneself. As adults, some people still feel awkward, stupid, or unappealing, and go to extremes to avoid this knowledge. When a spoke is tapped, the fear of the Abyss is activated, and the fearful PCS person reacts in one of the ways described here as the PCS traits. The person fleeing from the Abyss unwittingly creates a prison that becomes emotionally stifling. For many people who have been abused, the Abyss represents one of their parents. They think that if they ever feel angry, they will become their abusive mother or father. Less consciously, they feel that they already are like that person. While you may feel anger, maybe even rage - just like your parent - you also have values, self-control, and many positive and rational traits. When I say that shining light on your Abyss is the way to heal, I mean that facing feelings you would never act on in a million years enables you to integrate your rage and other traits of your Abyss into your many positive feelings.

 

[SMM]

Another quote from 'Fear of the Abyss', in chapter ten, helped to clarify for me the difference between the conscious abyss and the unconscious abyss. I bolded the relevant part, and when reading it was like a lightbulb went on in my mind.

The Abyss, then, can be a dreaded other that forms a hidden part of a person’s self-image. A self-image does not have to be accurate, but it nonetheless has a huge influence over the personality. The self-image that represents a dreaded other is defended against by the spokes of the wheel, preventing self-awareness and further emotional growth. Besides a dreaded other, the Abyss can also be a self-image based on how a person was described or made to feel as a child - a cruel, distorted vision of oneself. As adults, some people still feel awkward, stupid, or unappealing, and go to extremes to avoid this knowledge. When a spoke is tapped, the fear of the Abyss is activated, and the fearful PCS person reacts in one of the ways described here as the PCS traits. The person fleeing from the Abyss unwittingly creates a prison that becomes emotionally stifling. For many people who have been abused, the Abyss represents one of their parents. They think that if they ever feel angry, they will become their abusive mother or father. Less consciously, they feel that they already are like that person. While you may feel anger, maybe even rage - just like your parent - you also have values, self-control, and many positive and rational traits. When I say that shining light on your Abyss is the way to heal, I mean that facing feelings you would never act on in a million years enables you to integrate your rage and other traits of your Abyss into your many positive feelings.

Currently reading this book - this quote is powerful & appropriate in my case. Thanks for this SovereignDove, it has provided some food for thought.

 

[Gwenllian]

...
For many people who have been abused, the Abyss represents one of their parents. They think that if they ever feel angry, they will become their abusive mother or father. Less consciously, they feel that they already are like that person. While you may feel anger, maybe even rage - just like your parent - you also have values, self-control, and many positive and rational traits. When I say that shining light on your Abyss is the way to heal, I mean that facing feelings you would never act on in a million years enables you to integrate your rage and other traits of your Abyss into your many positive feelings.

I concur.
I had dreams where I was the abusive parent, emotionally and sexually, which terrified me at the time. I also saw stuff going on in my mind's eye, when I was in close proximity to my kids, thinking that I was the one that was about to molest her kids sexually. Thank DCM I could muster the clarity of mind (despite feelings of terror) to check and see if my body was moving. And when I saw my body had actually frozen and was very still I realised that it wasn't me who was the sexual predator. But I had to go through that at least a couple of times before I became more confident of my values and self-control.

 

[hesperides]

I´m also reading Fear of the Abyss and the concept of using the abyss to hide for instance my own fear of being stupid, was very helpful. My mother´s strong dissonances in her day by day behaviour created in me the believe I could have inherited some of her most disgusting traits that I did sum up as stupidity and shallowness, which in turn created some negative image around feminine qualities.

Thank DCM I could muster the clarity of mind (despite feelings of terror) to check and see if my body was moving. And when I saw my body had actually frozen and was very still I realized that it wasn't me who was the sexual predator. But I had to go through that at least a couple of times before I became more confident of my values and self-control.

Mariama, what a terrific thought and good example of the inner predator deception game. But could you elaborate a bit more what you meant above as I wasn´t able to get a quite proper picture and felt you were trying to transmit an important self-realization?

 

[Gwenllian]

Thank DCM I could muster the clarity of mind (despite feelings of terror) to check and see if my body was moving. And when I saw my body had actually frozen and was very still I realized that it wasn't me who was the sexual predator. But I had to go through that at least a couple of times before I became more confident of my values and self-control.

Mariama, what a terrific thought and good example of the inner predator deception game. But could you elaborate a bit more what you meant above as I wasn´t able to get a quite proper picture and felt you were trying to transmit an important self-realization?

Thanks hesperides, for asking. I think I was not clear enough. Sorry about that.

These examples come to mind. I was sitting on the bed of my eldest son who was ready to go to bed and who was about five at the time. It was dark in his room and I started dissociating, probably because of the darkness. And then I started having this idea that I was posing a threat to him, but my body didn't do anything, I didn't act. Still, I was under the impression that he was in danger because of me. I think it took me at least one day or maybe even more to come to the realization that I hadn't done anything, that I wasn't me who was the predator, but that some kind of memory (triggered by the darkness) was trying to come to the surface.
About five or six years later it happened again, probably because my youngest son was sitting in my lap. Again, I had this idea that I was about to harm him, he was sitting in my lap, which was a healthy intimate moment, but for me it had meant something different when I was small. I was terrified at that moment, (almost) convinced that I had already started acting like a sexual predator. That was the moment that I checked to see whether my body was doing anything.

I have had several dreams that made me think that I was the sexual predator, but when I started to think about them afterwards I could see that the naked body that was reflected in the mirror in my dream had not been mine, because it was much skinnier (I have never been skinny) and the body belonged to one of my women caretakers who was indulging in sexually perverse and violent behaviour.

I hope I have been able to explain this better, I still find it hard to talk about it in the most objective way possible.

 

[Bluefyre]

Dr. Edwards' book is now available in printed form at Amazon.

 

[Bluefyre]

This thread is helping so much. Thank you. The telling of dreams reminds me of a dream I had many years ago as a young adult. In the dream the pedophile who molested me was attacking me. I was on the ground and he was on top of me and I managed to grab a rock and bash it into his head. It sounded like a pumpkin being smashed. I woke up and had such mixed feelings of horror at defending myself with such a violent act and at the same time satisfaction that I had finally been able to defend myself.

Looking back with what I have learned perhaps I was trying to show myself that I could defend myself, that it is a natural, normal instinct to defend ourselves and it is debilitated in those of us abused as children in order to survive. I've been re-reading FOTA and the words "normal defenses" caught my attention. It slipped by the first time. I realize that I have very little understanding of what normal defenses are. I have been thinking about it a lot. What is a normal response to outrageous acts? What is a healthy response to inappropriate behaviour?

Reading and doing the exercises is making me more acutely aware of just how much anxiety has been a constant part of my experience. It is so empowering to see which spokes are being activated and trace them back to the abyss. The moments of peace and safety are hard won, but they are becoming more readily available and last longer. What a long journey. And a satisfying journey. Victim no more!

And as others have noted, and was mentioned in the radio show, some of the energy that I have expended to keep my abyss hidden it seems I am starting to make available for more worthwhile and creative activities.

 

[Gwenllian]

This thread is helping so much. Thank you. The telling of dreams reminds me of a dream I had many years ago as a young adult. In the dream the pedophile who molested me was attacking me. I was on the ground and he was on top of me and I managed to grab a rock and bash it into his head. It sounded like a pumpkin being smashed. I woke up and had such mixed feelings of horror at defending myself with such a violent act and at the same time satisfaction that I had finally been able to defend myself.

I think dreams like yours are fairly healthy. I also had a dream of my mother who in my dream was small like a child looking up to me with a crazy hateful look in her eyes and I lifted her up and threw her out of the window. I had to make a considerable effort, because the window was small and high. I discussed the dream with my therapist at the time who said it was a good dream, because it showed that I was standing up for myself.
In real life you wouldn't have grabbed a rock and bash it into the head of that man, but maybe this was one of your fantasies at the time that you had to suppress?
I know I had similar fantasies surrounding my father, but these could only come to the surface after I had started therapy.

Looking back with what I have learned perhaps I was trying to show myself that I could defend myself, that it is a natural, normal instinct to defend ourselves and it is debilitated in those of us abused as children in order to survive. I've been re-reading FOTA and the words "normal defenses" caught my attention. It slipped by the first time. I realize that I have very little understanding of what normal defenses are. I have been thinking about it a lot. What is a normal response to outrageous acts? What is a healthy response to inappropriate behaviour?

I can only tell you how my children have reacted to my behaviour. They have compared me to a hurricane, I once overheard my youngest saying to his brother that he was afraid of me, he has cried and shouted when I mistreated him. My eldest is different, due to different circumstances and character. But he would just have this expression of surprise on his face, which was enough for me to see what I was doing. But then I did order myself to give them the freedom to express themselves when I was in the wrong. Because I know how important it is for children to respond when their parents hurt them. And I most certainly did on many occasions.
When asked by a stranger my eldest son did admit that I was driving him crazy sometimes and he was grinning from ear to ear when he said it, but he meant it of course. I thought it was a good thing that he felt safe enough to say it with me being there. It made me laugh, because I know I must have driven them up the wall at times.

Reading and doing the exercises is making me more acutely aware of just how much anxiety has been a constant part of my experience. It is so empowering to see which spokes are being activated and trace them back to the abyss. The moments of peace and safety are hard won, but they are becoming more readily available and last longer. What a long journey. And a satisfying journey. Victim no more!

And as others have noted, and was mentioned in the radio show, some of the energy that I have expended to keep my abyss hidden it seems I am starting to make available for more worthwhile and creative activities.

That's wonderful news, Bluefyre, Progress!!

 

[hesperides]

Thank you Mariama for elaborating further. Actually, I was a bit confused (your explanations are ok) because of the above bold parts. From your description I understand now some of your repressed memories would turn into such a strong vivid dream, while still being physically active (not sleeping in your bed), that at some point you needed confronting your inner world images with reality. Hence I think you must have shown much resolution and courage when dealing with this stuff because in a way, it must be like fearing you are losing your mind. I´m happy you mentioned you are progressing with EE. :)