Fear Of The Abyss - Aleta Edwards

[Psalehesost]

I found those two videos helpful as well. The same goes for the rest of what RedFox posted about, that "My particular abyss is that (more so than being some sort of monster, although that is there too) I have no right to exist." The importance of social connection, and the threat of rejection being interpreted by the brain as threat for life.

A bit over a month ago, I got some further feedback to that effect, in relation to issues I described: trying to achieve in order to find safety, to avoid rejection; trying to become assured of acceptance by being perfect. Exploring the question of rejection led to feeling a lot of hurt from my childhood - a decade of rejection experienced in school. Though there is more to process regarding that hurt.

However, I still wondered about my Abyss. Like RedFox, I've noticed the "self as a monter part", as well as the "no right to exist" (and fear of annihilation) part. Recently, I found what seems to be the underlying Abyss behind both of these things. I had a session with Patrick and Heather (see thread: Patrick Rodriguez - Spirit Release Therapist? - though I haven't posted about my session there), and it largely revolved around a very prominent feeling and self-image. A feeling of despair, and a conviction - or "complete identification" - with being a freak, born defective or defective by my very nature.

There's a lot to process there - it's something that has been with me for most of my life, and which much of my personality seems to have formed around. I think that this may be the root of my PCS personality - the Abyss.

The sense of defectiveness - not a fear but a conviction - leads to feeling unworthy of existence, or that I only have the right to exist insofar as I continually earn it. It also leads to ideas of how I am defective - and related fears. If I'm defective by my very nature, then maybe I'm also monstrous?

So I can see it underlying both of the things that had been identified before.

Now I have a challenge: to feel this feeling of despair, and allow the self-image to be experienced. I tend to judge and reject feeling it, or anything associated with it - it triggers automatically. This makes sense in that the PCS personality seems to have formed around it, and it was formed to prevent awareness of the Abyss.


One thing that has been of help has been to practice self-compassion (the thread is about a good book on the subject). I came to realize that there are at least two kinds of self-acceptance. There is the intellectual kind, which is acceptance through knowledge; and there is the emotional kind, which is a fully accepting attitude.

In reading Fear of the Abyss, and processing things, I now realize that I mainly practiced the former kind of self-acceptance. It felt deep, because my emotional state shifted as I changed some of my black and white thinking. But it didn't reach the core of things. Self-compassion goes further, and makes it possible to feel more - because it becomes possible to accept more, including accepting feeling itself.

So I would highly recommend reading about self-compassion to everyone who struggles with the issues described in Fear of the Abyss. It seems to be an additional and crucial component to developing real self-acceptance.

 

[obyvatel]

I wanted to add something to this thread (and in a general sense). The book has been very helpful to me, but didn't entirely resonate until I worked out what was missing from my vocabulary.
specifically, I know what shame and guilt feel like, how I feel them in many actions and thoughts that are in fact neutral, and what behaviours that creates in me - but I didn't know what shame and guilt meant (cognitively/symbolically).

So I'm sharing two videos on shame and vulnerability that clarified it for me.

Some observations about the videos:

The issue I have with vulnerability the way it is presented is that the concept is given a scope that exceeds its natural limits . Acknowledging vulnerability to ourselves and showing it to others in appropriate contexts is healthy. A very simple example of such context can be to admit when one is overwhelmed and out of depth and seek help. However, the following take on vulnerability by Brene Brown is something I do not agree with: ( I have not read her books but have gotten this from glowing reviews of her work on the internet and her videos).

"To feel is to be vulnerable,”
“Vulnerability sounds like truth and feels like courage.”
“Vulnerability is the core, the heart, the center, of meaningful human experiences.”

etc.

Vulnerability is "not weakness" as the Brown says, neither is it "pure courage" or "the most accurate measurement of courage". True courage comes from knowledge. This knowledge shows us that there is uncertainty in our reality and also that it is possible to live in this reality while aligning with the creative principle. Knowledge about the environment we live in, knowledge about ourselves and the dynamic relationship we have with the changing environment determines the core of our experiences. Vulnerability is a small part of this knowledge - one that is largely focused on our own selves.

The etymology of the word vulnerable shows that it is derived from Latin roots which mean wounding or injury. I think the concept of vulnerability resonates with many people because it stirs up the feeling of wounding that affects the majority of the population due to the state of the society and childhood experiences. So talk about vulnerability stirs up the wounded child complex (meaning of complex discussed here ). The same is possibly the case for the concept of "self compassion" which is also often used far beyond its natural limits in the same way prompted by the stirring of the wounded child complex. This is a predictable outcome : if some phenomenon (narcissistic wounding in this case) has been undervalued and ignored for a long time so that it sinks into the unconscious, when it is stirred up it leads to a compensatory movement to being greatly overvalued overstepping its natural bounds.

What is good and beneficial within its natural limits can become detrimental and harmful when it is inflated beyond its scope. Something to keep in mind when going through this information.

 

[obyvatel]

The specific part is this - guilt is 'I did wrong', shame is 'I AM wrong'. My particular abyss is that (more so than being some sort of monster, although that is there too) I have no right to exist. As such everything is coloured by that - I have no right to anything (thoughts, feelings, emotions) without guilt.
My take on narcissism was that of reinforcing this position - I am wrong to have any desires/want/need (needs being the important part) for my self.
Added to this guilt also reinforced the abyss by being transformed into shame - I did wrong, therefore I shouldn't exist.
It is such a fundamentally deep feeling of being so 'broken' and 'wrong' that it has touched every aspect of my life.
I could see this dynamic from a young age, I knew it was black and white when I read the definition of black and white thinking, I've read the books etc but could still not shift this.

I am very familiar with the "I am fundamentally broken and not worthy of anything good" line of thought. I have enough compelling data from prenatal and early childhood experiences of my personal life which justifies the creation and existence of that line of thought in me. However, there is a big piece missing in that picture. Gurdjieff said that a stick has 2 ends and Jung explicated that theme extensively. So this is my experience of the "other end of the stick".

I have had my share of social connections in my life growing up. I have also won my fair share (and perhaps more) of external validation and accolades, all of which should have disabused me of the notion of being broken and not worthy of anything good. I have had my share of setbacks too, but overall life in no way has reflected back to me the notion that I am broken and not worthy. It has not and still does not do so. This is not an intellectual idea gotten from books but experience, what just is. So somehow I am left with this big discrepancy - between what is and what a part of me sees it as.

So how do I process all the experience in life that does not support the notion of being fundamentally defective and unworthy? There is a part of me on the lookout for external validation - through the agency of social connections. When I get this validation, I simply brush it aside with self-depreciating casualness. But when I do not get that validation that I am supposedly looking for , it becomes either "Oh I knew I was worthless" or a projection of the "worthlessness" on the others. A host of emotions like self-pity, self-righteousness, indignation etc accompany the latter situation depending on the specific context and the "others" who are involved in it. All this goes on internally and is not usually visible in an obvious form from the outside - at least I have not gotten feedback from others that would indicate otherwise.

So this is how the process looks like in my case. So what gives? Symbolic or metaphorical language may be suitable here. The poem from Emily Dickinson that I posted on this thread earlier here is applicable. The hole or abyss that is created - perhaps due to traumatic experiences at an early age - is not left empty according to the rules of psyche and nature. What lives in that hole is the "predator's mind" or more picturesquely " a wolf with insatiable hunger". It is not my wolf - it is an archetypal creature that has come to inhabit that hole in the psyche which is covered up "with trance", where consciousness does not , can not, penetrate as yet. No matter how much this wolf is fed, he is never satisfied. Its hunger is such that "it wants to eat and assimilate everything without any reason or meaning, always wanting more and more."

Jungian analyst Marie Von Franz provides some insight into this dynamic.

[quote author=Marie Von Franz in The Problem of the Puer Aeternus]
If you invite such people (under the influence of the insatiable wolf archetype) to supper, they are not pleased but simply furious when you don't invite them again next week. If you give a tip, they are not grateful, for the next time if you don't give them more, they say, "What? Only a franc?
[/quote]

Matches almost exactly with Gurdjieff's observations on the nature of man being helped.
[quote author=G]
"Such is the nature of man, that for your first gift—he prostrates himself;
for your second—kisses your hand;
for the third—fawns;
for the fourth—just nods his head once;
for the fifth— becomes too familiar; for the sixth—insults you;
and for the seventh—sues you because he was not given enough."
[/quote]

Coming back to Von Franz

[quote author=MLVF]
The worse are those who in early childhood have been starved of love. They go about pale and bitter with a "nobody loves me" expression, but if one makes a kind gesture, there is no appreciation, only the desire for more. If you don't give more, then they are furious and enraged. You could go on and on and powaur the whole world into such an open mouth - and it wouldn't help. You could throw everything in; do anything you like - they would never find it enough. It is like the abyss of death: the mouth never shuts; there is only demand for more. It is a kind of driven passion for eating and eating ....
One day one can only say no whenever such greed comes up because there is no end to it. It is a divine-demonic quality. It is the thing which says, "More! Still more! Still more and more!".
[/quote]

This is very important to remember when indulging in self-compassion or shame resilience or the vulnerability concept. This insatiable greed is the other side of the stick. And conflating terms - like what appears to be happening in the vulnerability concept of Brene Brown - seems to me as having the potential to land right into the wolf's mouth.

[quote author=MLVF]
Some people who have this wolf problem realize that this is kind of greedy wanting more and more and eating everybody and everything up is mad and unreasonable, so they don't let it out. They behave very correctly and never ask for more, but you always suspect that it is just politeness behind which is caged the starving wolf. Such people then suddenly fall into the wolf and come out with terrific and impossible demands which cannot be fulfilled.
[/quote]

I have seen this play out in life with people. This does not mean that we should go out looking for the wolf in every person.

My working hypothesis is that having a persistent " I am fatally flawed" idea constellates the wolf in the unconscious as a compensatory mechanism as the "other end of the stick". It is possible to get an instinctive feel for the wolf in us and others. Once we see it a few times and do not cover it up and forget about it, it gets easier to see when it is affecting thinking or behavior. This wolf (or predator's mind if you will, I like wolf better because it gives an image) cannot be killed - it is archetypal in nature. Nor can it be vanquished with one titanic heroic effort. For a long time, the best one can do is to make sure it is contained or "caged" all the while indulging in the "bone by bone" effort to fill up the holes in the psyche with consciousness, the holes through which the archetypal wolf tries to burst into reality. IMO the stuff about vulnerability, shame, HSP, PCS, all have some good points which can help us - but we need to apply them carefully, staying aware of the wolf.

 

[Torstone]

I feel that this book gave me many aha-moments about my own behavioral dynamics and possible sources for them
and I think it provides a very practical way of approaching different areas in a more organized way.

One of the things I think I could see about myself regarding The Abyss is the fear of being naïve and stupid and therefore not being worthy of having something valuable to contribute to others. Thereby creating a counterpart which values control and censoring every creative idea which have an ambiguous meaning into black and white conclusions and only expressing those.

A way of how this manifests is never daring to speak up because of the fear of not being understood or fear of not having understood the subject which I wanted to approach, to be ridiculed for it or seen as somebody who is confused or stupid. And since I always doubted myself about the right conclusions, I created this anti-creative mental blocking which censors everything and not accepting anything before it is perfect. And since nothing is ever perfect nothing was ever said and therefore never learned through active reasoning in a discussion but instead the subjective feeling of how I understood it.

This again creates a circle of my thoughts and feelings becoming more and more subjective and relying on my own vocabulary to try to fix things about myself or think about various topics.
And if I tried to share my views about certain subjects, even though I had some points or question to be made, I would shut down and confuse myself because the point was never good enough. I would feel shamed and guilty afterwards because I felt I didn’t get my point out correctly and that I had burdened the other with nonsensical talk.

 

[A Jay]

I was listening to the SOTT radio show interview with Dr. Edwards, and the way she was able to put into words the feelings that I've been struggling with for most of my life brought me to tears. The crippling indecisiveness, the black and white thinking, the shame-based perfectionism and anxiety. I've had 'Fear of the Abyss' for some time, but never finished reading it because I was always afraid to 'go there'. It's scary and painful facing my inner abyss. But I'm tired of letting my feelings of fear and shame control me, and I'm sick of constantly feeling like I'm having a panic or anxiety attack.

I started reading the book again and just the first few chapters have been helpful in looking at myself with a sense of compassion, and the way she talks about the success stories gives me hope and courage. I don't know what I'm going to find when I start doing the exercises, but I'm hoping that by putting the energy into healing my emotional wounds with the help of my therapist that I can finally start living my life without a constant fear and anxiety of being ashamed or disappointed. To wake up in the morning and not feel like I'm having or going to have a panic attack is a day that I'm really looking forward to. Though I'm also a bit scared, as having lived with these feelings for so long I'm not sure what life will be like without them. Will be reading back through this thread and the radio show thread to see what others experienced reading the book.

Interestingly, last night I was able to stay fully awake and aware during my entire EE session for the first time in a long time. I remembered seeing my mother lying on the couch during her fight with cancer, and I remembered wanting desperately to help her but feeling powerless to do anything. Don't remember much of that time because I was very young, but will talk to my mother about this memory to see what I can find. Then after I went to bed I had a dream that I was given a black panther to ride around town. There was a struggle where it tried to bite my hands, but after wrestling with it and forcing it to obey me I was able to climb on its back and ride it where I needed to go. Hoping that's a good sign.

Looking back, it's frightening just how much of my behavior has been desperate attempts to fight against seeing into the 'abyss'. Even so far as literally running from the forum and the friends I've made here. I'm ashamed and scared, but won't let that stop me from moving forward.

Just wanted to share.

 

[Rich]

Then after I went to bed I had a dream that I was given a black panther to ride around town. There was a struggle where it tried to bite my hands, but after wrestling with it and forcing it to obey me I was able to climb on its back and ride it where I needed to go. Hoping that's a good sign.

Looking back, it's frightening just how much of my behavior has been desperate attempts to fight against seeing into the 'abyss'. Even so far as literally running from the forum and the friends I've made here. I'm ashamed and scared, but won't let that stop me from moving forward.

Just wanted to share.

Thank you for sharing A jay, I think it courageous of you to do so and really good to hear you're making progress.

You're not alone in the lengths we go to to avoid confronting our 'abyss'. It can be useful to recognise (and be grateful) that isn't as bad as it could have been.

Despite your admission of fears, I pick up a sense of relief that you've looked that hidden monster in the eye, told it you're not scared any more and can leave it behind you.

Wish you well.

 

[Ennio]

I was listening to the SOTT radio show interview with Dr. Edwards, and the way she was able to put into words the feelings that I've been struggling with for most of my life brought me to tears. The crippling indecisiveness, the black and white thinking, the shame-based perfectionism and anxiety. I've had 'Fear of the Abyss' for some time, but never finished reading it because I was always afraid to 'go there'. It's scary and painful facing my inner abyss. But I'm tired of letting my feelings of fear and shame control me, and I'm sick of constantly feeling like I'm having a panic or anxiety attack.

Thank you for sharing this, A Jay. What you wrote reminds me of the time 'The Narcissistic Family' was first brought up here. I was terrified of reading it for some reason even if I was already somewhat aware of the dynamics involved in my upbringing, and some of my own issues. After diving into the book though, I found the insights it contained less scary than what I was making it out to be and read with great curiosity and interest. It felt a little like shining a light in a dark area of a large and chaotic basement. Yeah, there's disorder there but the light of what's being said made the disorder more visible, and therefore, easier to deal with. As for the feelings of anxiety or panic, are you aware of what thoughts or feelings trigger them?

I started reading the book again and just the first few chapters have been helpful in looking at myself with a sense of compassion, and the way she talks about the success stories gives me hope and courage. I don't know what I'm going to find when I start doing the exercises, but I'm hoping that by putting the energy into healing my emotional wounds with the help of my therapist that I can finally start living my life without a constant fear and anxiety of being ashamed or disappointed. To wake up in the morning and not feel like I'm having or going to have a panic attack is a day that I'm really looking forward to. Though I'm also a bit scared, as having lived with these feelings for so long I'm not sure what life will be like without them. Will be reading back through this thread and the radio show thread to see what others experienced reading the book.

I wonder sometimes if panic attacks relate in some way to dissociation. Like an unconscious 'alarm clock' going searing through all the noise of our chatter and that tells us "there's something to be aware of!" But, because the feeling may seem to arise from nowhere, we don't know why we're having it or what to do with it. These feelings may just be coming from the real you; like some part of you giving another part of you a signal and looking for a way of getting your attention.

Interestingly, last night I was able to stay fully awake and aware during my entire EE session for the first time in a long time. I remembered seeing my mother lying on the couch during her fight with cancer, and I remembered wanting desperately to help her but feeling powerless to do anything. Don't remember much of that time because I was very young, but will talk to my mother about this memory to see what I can find. Then after I went to bed I had a dream that I was given a black panther to ride around town. There was a struggle where it tried to bite my hands, but after wrestling with it and forcing it to obey me I was able to climb on its back and ride it where I needed to go. Hoping that's a good sign.

Interesting dream. The first thing that comes to mind is that the black panther may be representing some part of you that bites or feeds. It also reminds me of getting one's horses under control when they are bolting or bucking.

Looking back, it's frightening just how much of my behavior has been desperate attempts to fight against seeing into the 'abyss'. Even so far as literally running from the forum and the friends I've made here. I'm ashamed and scared, but won't let that stop me from moving forward.

Just wanted to share.

Keep sharing, A Jay. As you no doubt know this is a process but these steps you're taking towards coming to terms with things - and not running away from the discomfort - may prove very constructive. :)

 

[A Jay]

As for the feelings of anxiety or panic, are you aware of what thoughts or feelings trigger them?

I've noticed that I sometimes have the feelings of panic when I think that I'm going to disappoint someone, when I think about doing something new or uncomfortable, or when I know I'm avoiding something that I need to do.

But there's also a consistent thought loop that comes up with these feelings of anxiety. When I think I'm going to disappoint someone then it's because I'm gay. When I'm scared of trying something new it's because I'm gay. When I'm avoiding something I need to do it's because I'm gay. It's really confusing and frustrating, because aside from sometimes feeling like the statement is true I have no strong attraction to men and have always found my preference to be women. At the same time, I get the feeling that there's something more beneath the statement. Like that it's true because there's something underneath the statement for me that I'm feeling that may not necessarily have anything to do with sexual preference.

This is part of why I ran from a recent confrontation with my own behavior. I had this feeling that I couldn't admit to my actions, because if I did it meant that I was gay and I didn't want to have to face that reality. But something more, I had this picture in my mind of the feelings I was having at the time, and it was like the gay thought was a mask for something deeper and darker that I didn't want to deal with.

I wonder sometimes if panic attacks relate in some way to dissociation. Like an unconscious 'alarm clock' going searing through all the noise of our chatter and that tells us "there's something to be aware of!" But, because the feeling may seem to arise from nowhere, we don't know why we're having it or what to do with it. These feelings may just be coming from the real you; like some part of you giving another part of you a signal and looking for a way of getting your attention.

I think you might be one to something. At least at times it feels like when I'm running away from or avoiding doing what I know I need to I can have strong feelings of anxiety. So perhaps the real me is trying to get my attention and saying that I need to pay attention and take care of these things because they're not going away and avoiding them is likely going to make the situation worse for myself.

Interesting dream. The first thing that comes to mind is that the black panther may be representing some part of you that bites or feeds. It also reminds me of getting one's horses under control when they are bolting or bucking.

I hadn't thought of it in terms of a part of myself that bites or feeds, but I can see that being true.

 

[Ennio]

As for the feelings of anxiety or panic, are you aware of what thoughts or feelings trigger them?

I've noticed that I sometimes have the feelings of panic when I think that I'm going to disappoint someone, when I think about doing something new or uncomfortable, or when I know I'm avoiding something that I need to do.

Maybe you can exchange the word panic for discomfort and consider that these feelings may not be such a bad thing, however sometimes unpleasant. When we take on new responsibilities to and for others as we're working for here, it can be, by its very nature, an uncomfortable thing - especially if we're mostly used to answering only to ourselves. But if we can see these feelings of discomfort as an opportunity for growth, instead of something to avoid, then it becomes something you can work with and something that can, in the long run, be used to benefit ALL.

But there's also a consistent thought loop that comes up with these feelings of anxiety. When I think I'm going to disappoint someone then it's because I'm gay. When I'm scared of trying something new it's because I'm gay. When I'm avoiding something I need to do it's because I'm gay. It's really confusing and frustrating, because aside from sometimes feeling like the statement is true I have no strong attraction to men and have always found my preference to be women. At the same time, I get the feeling that there's something more beneath the statement. Like that it's true because there's something underneath the statement for me that I'm feeling that may not necessarily have anything to do with sexual preference.

We live in a pretty homophobic society (political "advances" notwithstanding). I wonder from what you write if you somehow internalized or absorbed that homophobia - even unconsciously - where being homosexual in your mind is somehow equal to being unworthy or just "bad". And so, whenever your negative introject or predator's mind is acting up it automatically gets interpreted and associated by your conscious mind to give you the message that you're "gay". Now, this doesn't mean necessarily that you're not gay, in which case, so what? But it may be easier to see that though the two issues are related, you might try teasing the two apart a bit.

This is part of why I ran from a recent confrontation with my own behavior. I had this feeling that I couldn't admit to my actions, because if I did it meant that I was gay and I didn't want to have to face that reality. But something more, I had this picture in my mind of the feelings I was having at the time, and it was like the gay thought was a mask for something deeper and darker that I didn't want to deal with.

Maybe it was just a gay thought and you should stop feeling like you have to run away from it and thinking that it means something "deeper and darker" about yourself? We all have different types of thoughts all the time but we don't have to let them define us. And we don't have to identify with them. The problem I think is when we have these thoughts and we get so embroiled in fear that the fear takes over any thinking capacity we have and we begin to freak out, ie. holy crap "I had a "gay" thought!!". Then we fall into confluence or emotional thinking, forget ourselves, forget the things we need to take care of, forget the people we are responsible to, and the list goes on and on...

I wonder sometimes if panic attacks relate in some way to dissociation. Like an unconscious 'alarm clock' going searing through all the noise of our chatter and that tells us "there's something to be aware of!" But, because the feeling may seem to arise from nowhere, we don't know why we're having it or what to do with it. These feelings may just be coming from the real you; like some part of you giving another part of you a signal and looking for a way of getting your attention.

I think you might be one to something. At least at times it feels like when I'm running away from or avoiding doing what I know I need to I can have strong feelings of anxiety. So perhaps the real me is trying to get my attention and saying that I need to pay attention and take care of these things because they're not going away and avoiding them is likely going to make the situation worse for myself.

Yes. And the farther away you are from actively addressing the important things, the more anxiety you are likely to feel because, on some level, you know that everything you choose to do - or not do - may be 'mission critical' at this point.

Have you read the Splitting thread yet?

 

[herondancer]

As for the feelings of anxiety or panic, are you aware of what thoughts or feelings trigger them?

I've noticed that I sometimes have the feelings of panic when I think that I'm going to disappoint someone, when I think about doing something new or uncomfortable, or when I know I'm avoiding something that I need to do.

But there's also a consistent thought loop that comes up with these feelings of anxiety. When I think I'm going to disappoint someone then it's because I'm gay. When I'm scared of trying something new it's because I'm gay. When I'm avoiding something I need to do it's because I'm gay. It's really confusing and frustrating, because aside from sometimes feeling like the statement is true I have no strong attraction to men and have always found my preference to be women. At the same time, I get the feeling that there's something more beneath the statement. Like that it's true because there's something underneath the statement for me that I'm feeling that may not necessarily have anything to do with sexual preference.

I'm glad you're sharing too, A Jay. I hope you will look into the thought loop you've described above, because from a certain point of view, it really doesn't make any sense. It's like any uncomfortable feeling or fear you have somehow has "gayness' at it's root. I'm wondering if it was used as a subtle tool to shame the males in your family for unacceptable behaviour or when you disappointed them. I know it's a simplistic idea and the truth will be much more complex, but how else would such disparate feelings get the same label attached to it? What does sexual preference have to do with the feelings you describe? Gender preference issues usually revolve around identity and the need for acceptance. So yeah, it seems to be a cover for some other, deeper matter.

This is part of why I ran from a recent confrontation with my own behavior. I had this feeling that I couldn't admit to my actions, because if I did it meant that I was gay and I didn't want to have to face that reality. But something more, I had this picture in my mind of the feelings I was having at the time, and it was like the gay thought was a mask for something deeper and darker that I didn't want to deal with.

This is worth looking into with your therapist. Have you given it any more thought since this post?

 

[A Jay]

Maybe you can exchange the word panic for discomfort and consider that these feelings may not be such a bad thing, however sometimes unpleasant. When we take on new responsibilities to and for others as we're working for here, it can be, by its very nature, an uncomfortable thing - especially if we're mostly used to answering only to ourselves. But if we can see these feelings of discomfort as an opportunity for growth, instead of something to avoid, then it becomes something you can work with and something that can, in the long run, be used to benefit ALL.

Just substituting the word discomfort is making the feelings more manageable, and looking at these feelings as unresolved or unexpressed emotions has helped to get them recognizable form and shape. So I'm no longer sitting with a swirling mass of discomfort, but distinct and independent emotions and fears. What I'm coming up against at this point is letting it be okay to have these emotions and then letting it be okay to express them in a healthy way. Which has involved crying, screaming, and punching a pillow. But I'm wondering about other ways of channeling them, and how to frame things in my mind so that I can use the emotions as a driving force to gather and share knowledge and actually do things that are of benefit to others.

We live in a pretty homophobic society (political "advances" notwithstanding). I wonder from what you write if you somehow internalized or absorbed that homophobia - even unconsciously - where being homosexual in your mind is somehow equal to being unworthy or just "bad". And so, whenever your negative introject or predator's mind is acting up it automatically gets interpreted and associated by your conscious mind to give you the message that you're "gay". Now, this doesn't mean necessarily that you're not gay, in which case, so what? But it may be easier to see that though the two issues are related, you might try teasing the two apart a bit.

I agree that it seems I internalized equating being gay with being "bad", so when I do something that I perceive as 'bad' in some way it automatically triggers the thought or fear that I'm gay. Which I've noticed doesn't even necessarily have to do with doing anything, but can include simply recognizing a fear or desire or a need. As if there's something wrong with me because I need, say, to eat something because I've not eaten all day because I've been working on processing and responding to the responses I've been given here. I've always been a very sensitive person. So I'm wondering if my unconscious mind may have taken this sensitivity and labeled it as a 'gay' trait, since real men don't cry or have and show emotions, and whenever I feel something, whether or not it's in or out of proportion to the situation, then this thought loop rears its head as a way into shaming me into stifling any emotional response at all so that I can 'be a real man'. Still trying to sort this out.

Something that may be connected, I discussed the memory that I recalled during my EE session with my mother, and it occurred to me, from the way she described my behavior, that I actively repressed my needs, pains, etc. as a child. I didn't want to put added stress on my parents. My mother mostly as she was the one that was around most often. She worked a full time job, had to take care of 5 kids, as well as cook and run the household because no one else was able to. I also saw that we were struggling with money, though I didn't know the extent of it until recently, so I would intentionally not say anything when I needed something because I didn't want to be more of a burden. For instance, I remember when I was going into 6th or 7th grade and finally had to get a new pair of shoes because my mother noticed how ratty my old shoes had gotten, and it turned out that I had been wearing shoes that were 2.5 sizes too small. The discomfort of wearing the shoes didn't even register in my head until after we had gone shoe shopping, because it was something that I blocked out of my mind so as not to be a burden.

Something else, that's a little embarrassing to admit but I think is relevant, is when I was a young child up until I was a preteen I would force myself to not go to the bathroom. Urinating was never something that was suppressed, but I would sometimes force myself to not defecate for days. I would say to myself that I just didn't want to waste my time going to the bathroom when I could be out doing things and living my life, but I think really I just didn't want to because somehow it was connected to processing emotions. As if I wouldn't have to feel all the hurt and frustration and pain in my life if I could just find a way to 'keep it all inside'. Which had some ramifications that I'm rather ashamed about, but nevertheless I continued the practice. At the same time it gave me a feeling of control in a world where I was told when to eat, sleep, play, go to church, go to school, etc.

Maybe it was just a gay thought and you should stop feeling like you have to run away from it and thinking that it means something "deeper and darker" about yourself? We all have different types of thoughts all the time but we don't have to let them define us. And we don't have to identify with them. The problem I think is when we have these thoughts and we get so embroiled in fear that the fear takes over any thinking capacity we have and we begin to freak out, ie. holy crap "I had a "gay" thought!!". Then we fall into confluence or emotional thinking, forget ourselves, forget the things we need to take care of, forget the people we are responsible to, and the list goes on and on...

Letting myself have thoughts and feelings without fear or judgement is something that going to a therapist has been helpful in tackling. At the same time, being able to see them, not identify with them, and avoid getting caught into thinking about them in strictly black and white terms is one of the things I've been working on as well.

Yes. And the farther away you are from actively addressing the important things, the more anxiety you are likely to feel because, on some level, you know that everything you choose to do - or not do - may be 'mission critical' at this point.

Have you read the Splitting thread yet?

I'm making my way through it now. So far it's given me a lot to think about, and a lot to work on. Not just struggling against my tendency towards black and white thinking, but also struggling to be more externally considerate.

I'm glad you're sharing too, A Jay. I hope you will look into the thought loop you've described above, because from a certain point of view, it really doesn't make any sense. It's like any uncomfortable feeling or fear you have somehow has "gayness' at it's root. I'm wondering if it was used as a subtle tool to shame the males in your family for unacceptable behaviour or when you disappointed them. I know it's a simplistic idea and the truth will be much more complex, but how else would such disparate feelings get the same label attached to it? What does sexual preference have to do with the feelings you describe? Gender preference issues usually revolve around identity and the need for acceptance. So yeah, it seems to be a cover for some other, deeper matter.

That's basically what it seems like to me. Being labeled 'gay' was used as a tool for shaming in my social life, both at church and at school, where anything less than absolute machismo or anything somewhat strange was given this label. Although I think that this is probably the 'norm' for many people, and I can't recall any specific examples of it being used in my family. I'm wondering if this thought loop is the result of an identification with teasing I experienced where my feelings of worthlessness had to be justified in some way so my mind just took the idea and ran with it?

This is part of why I ran from a recent confrontation with my own behavior. I had this feeling that I couldn't admit to my actions, because if I did it meant that I was gay and I didn't want to have to face that reality. But something more, I had this picture in my mind of the feelings I was having at the time, and it was like the gay thought was a mask for something deeper and darker that I didn't want to deal with.

This is worth looking into with your therapist. Have you given it any more thought since this post?

To take a quote from G that was posted in the splitting thread:

"As I have already said, people very often think that if they begin to struggle with considering within themselves it will make them 'insincere' and they are afraid of this because they think that in this event they will be losing something, losing a part of themselves. In this case the same thing takes place as in attempts to struggle against the outward expression of unpleasant emotions. The sole difference is that in one case a man struggles with the outward expression of emotions and in the other case with an inner manifestation of perhaps the same emotions.

"This fear of losing sincerity is of course self-deception, one of those formulas of lying upon which human weaknesses are based. Man cannot help identifying and considering inwardly and he cannot help expressing his unpleasant emotions, simply because he is weak. Identifying, considering, the expressing of unpleasant emotions, are manifestations of his weakness, his impotence, his inability to control himself. But not wishing to acknowledge this weakness to himself, he calls it 'sincerity' or 'honesty' and he tells himself that he does not want to struggle against sincerity, whereas in fact he is unable to struggle against his weaknesses."

I've been afraid of facing my inner abyss, because I've felt that if I faced it then, as Dr. Aleta said in her book, that I would be losing my sense of morality. Losing some part of myself. With this quote from G, I see that it was also a weakness in struggling against my own internal consideration which manifested as a lack of external consideration with regards to my family. I do not wish to be 'insincere' with them, and so I have shared things that were not specifically asked for though I always tried putting things in ways that they would understand. This, I think, is what I was running away from. Yes, I have emotional struggles, but I think what I didn't want to admit to was my failure in this. I have made their lives harder by not restraining my need to be sincere. I care deeply about my family, and I think that there's a split here where caring about my family means that I cannot not share with them. It's black and white. But I'm not really showing love towards them by giving them information that they're not asking for.

 

[A Jay]

This is part of why I ran from a recent confrontation with my own behavior. I had this feeling that I couldn't admit to my actions, because if I did it meant that I was gay and I didn't want to have to face that reality. But something more, I had this picture in my mind of the feelings I was having at the time, and it was like the gay thought was a mask for something deeper and darker that I didn't want to deal with.

This is worth looking into with your therapist. Have you given it any more thought since this post?

I've been thinking a lot about this since my last post, and have had some realizations that are rather painful to have to admit to. Namely that I'm not perfect and that I have to put in the effort and work to make things happen just like everyone else. I can't just read a book, understand concepts theoretically, and not perform the suggested exercises and expect things to happen or change. That's not the way life works, and I'm learning that now.

During my last therapy session we were discussing the steps that I've taken to work towards my AIM, and one of the things that came up was the feelings that I hate myself for having the desire to dissociate and not give all that I have all of the time. Denying the need to take time for myself from time to time. I was afraid to say that I wanted to watch a tv show or movie every now and then, because then I wouldn't be how I defined 'perfect'. I would be normal, and therefore incapable of handling the immense pressure I put on myself to do so much. Discussing this lead to a number of memories from my childhood where I was told that I was going to grow up to be the 'banker' of the family, because I was such a chubby baby and I was always saving my money and rarely spending it. I internalized that idea of being a financial bedrock for my family, and on multiple occasions my parents asked if I would help take care of them when they got older. Well, I took on that mantle as well, and decided that I wanted to be the one to take care of my parents problems. I was a child expecting himself to take on the role of an adult, and I've been living with the guilt and shame of not being able to live up to that expectation.

I care deeply about my parents. I saw how much they struggled, and I wanted and still want desperately to help ease their suffering. So I've expected nothing but 'perfection' from myself in order to one day reach my unconscious goal of taking care of them. Realizing this and experiencing the frustration, letting the little boy in me cry because there's no magic wand he can wave and make everything all better was very emotionally painful. But as soon as I gave voice to the anger that I felt as a child at not being able to help take care of my parents it was like a pressure relief valve opened up somewhere inside of me. As if a weight has been lifted, freeing up all kinds of energy and emotions and feelings. It's been amazing. There's still things going on that I need to work through, but something has clicked and wanted to share this positive experience with you all and hopefully get some feedback on how to keep moving forward.

:)

 

[herondancer]

Excellent! Things are starting to flow now. It was wrong imo, for your parents to put such a burden on you when you were so young. They defined your role for you before you ever had a chance to find out who you are and what you want for your life. That's not to say that you shouldn't be of help to your parents, but as you've realized, at an unconscious level it consumed a lot of your energy, without you even knowing why. Hopefully you can begin to strike a better, more realistic balance in your life. There's times for work, which can be Work, and times to relax; gently dissociate with materials that can also contribute to your growth. Laura has often recommended BBC productions of different Charles Dickens' novels. They're well done, entertaining, and contain a lot of truth. The recent Bleak House (with Gillian Anderson ) is a good one to start with.

Onwards!

 

[Approaching Infinity]

During my last therapy session we were discussing the steps that I've taken to work towards my AIM, and one of the things that came up was the feelings that I hate myself for having the desire to dissociate and not give all that I have all of the time. Denying the need to take time for myself from time to time. I was afraid to say that I wanted to watch a tv show or movie every now and then, because then I wouldn't be how I defined 'perfect'. I would be normal, and therefore incapable of handling the immense pressure I put on myself to do so much.

Oh no, you're normal! ;) There's nothing wrong with wanting to watch something "every now and then". The problem is when that becomes EVERY now and then (e.g. binge-watching that uses up time probably better spent on something more productive). Maybe you can use your inner 'banker' to your advantage by making a deal with yourself when and what is appropriate. There will be times when you need to give yourself a break, and others where you have to be strict with yourself. But either should be YOUR decision, not your 'inner parents'.

 

[Joe]

During my last therapy session we were discussing the steps that I've taken to work towards my AIM, and one of the things that came up was the feelings that I hate myself for having the desire to dissociate and not give all that I have all of the time. Denying the need to take time for myself from time to time. I was afraid to say that I wanted to watch a tv show or movie every now and then, because then I wouldn't be how I defined 'perfect'.

This is a pretty common problem I think. The cycle of beating oneself up over some thought or deed, but which can only be endured for so long before a reaction to the unjust self-treatment causes us to engage in the same thought or deed to a bit of an extreme. Far better to catch the self-berating thought, and talk some sense to yourself and even make a bargain that you will do some activity that serves your aim and then you will reward yourself for good behavior by engaging in some dissociative activity. This brings the whole process into the light of conscious awareness and can have some pretty interesting results.

Onwards and upwards A Jay.