Fermented foods

[monotonic]

I certainly don't think this is enough of an issue to start shovelling ant dirt into your sauerkraut, but maybe that's just me :)

It seems to me that you don't really know, but you are averse to the idea. I don't know for sure either, so I suggested it as an experiment, but how different is it really from ordering a probiotic or starter containing untold varieties of bacteria? It's something to try for people looking to repopulate their gut. Sometimes it takes trying out different probiotics until you find one that works for you. It helped me.

From the cultural perspective, it makes sense to use the tried and true methods of old. However these were developed alongside agriculture and wheat and all the things we know to be unhealthy (AFAIK). Using a generational starter will pare down the bacterial variety and the end result will be a symbiosis of bacteria perfect for fermenting that specific plant; and adverse conditions may further degrade the culture after this point. What I've read on the subject suggests a wide spread of species is good. There are too many types of bacteria to count, and many available probiotics are restricted to those that have been identified and studied, which is relatively few AFAIK. This is not really the same way we would have come across bacterial diversity long ago.

 

[monotonic]

I've been trying to think of different ways to include fermented foods in ketogenic recipes. Here are a few ideas. Perhaps this should have its own thread in the Recipes section?

Mayonnaise with cultured butter and/or kraut juice. Lactofermented mayonnaise is known to last longer. We've made mayonnaise with butter before and it had a very strong "buttery" flavor that was interesting but may be offputting to some. However cultured butter tastes a lot different so it's something I want to try when I have the chance.

When making bone broth, I've suggested before it could be better to use citric acid or lactic acid instead of vinegar because mineral salts with acetic acid are generally inflammatory. I think kraut juice may be excellent for this, and good for the flavor. However it contains salt, which is said to inhibit mineral release from the bones.

Some have commented on sauerkraut being helpful in ketogenic meals because it emulsifies the fat and makes it more palatable. So perhaps using it as an emulsifier like egg yolks can work? For instance with lard cream?

Anyone ever try meat marinated in kraut juice? I don't know what lactobacilli would do to meat...

Of course one should test whether sauerkraut is compatible with them on a ketogenic diet before considering eating it often. Supposedly cabbage/sauerkraut is a "free food" because it takes more carbs to digest than you get from eating it. Obviously all fermented foods can't be this way (for instance pickles), but it suggests a degree of leniency.

 

[mcb]

...Of course one should test whether sauerkraut is compatible with them on a ketogenic diet before considering eating it often. Supposedly cabbage/sauerkraut is a "free food" because it takes more carbs to digest than you get from eating it. Obviously all fermented foods can't be this way (for instance pickles), but it suggests a degree of leniency.

I have reason to believe that there are a number of foods that are "free" in this sense, and not just fermented ones. The Atkins "net carb" method of evaluating foods was never meant to be scientifically precise, and it is one-dimensional.

I am just experimenting on my own right now, but I have been looking at both the net carbs of a food (grams of carbohydrate minus grams of fiber) and the total fiber. If the net carbs are low but the fiber is high (as with avocado), it probably contains a lot of indigestible saccharides, and may cause trouble in FODMAP sensitive individuals. If the net carbs and total fiber are both low, I regard that as a candidate "bacteria food."

My elimination testing results are consistent with this idea (avocado is definitely out!), as long as I keep the amounts of these foods fairly low. I am currently having a few mushrooms a day (sliced), a slice or two of onion, and a small handful of almonds on some days. I have also been consuming 1-2 quarts of prepared sauerkraut a week, although I plan to reduce that to 1 quart this next week, and a smallish chard leaf or two (chopped, without the stem). All of it is organic, and all but the sauerkraut is local.

The reason I am ready to reduce the sauerkraut is that I can tell that my gut bacteria have greatly multiplied -- and without symptoms of toxicity. I do experience intermittent lower abdominal pain, but it is directly related to producing huge volumes of stool relative to what I was producing while eating no plant foods. It is probably not all that much compared to when I was a vegan, or when I was trying to reach the US RDA for fiber intake, but it is a lot more than what my lower GI tract has been accustomed to handling recently. I suspect that bacteria make up a large proportion of the increase.

I am finding that staying "regular" now depends quite a bit upon having regular and sufficient sleep, so that is where my attention is at the moment. Presumably the two are related through hormone levels and timing. I may also need to reduce my fiber intake a little, although it is only a few grams a day, and much of that will be digested by the bacteria.

So while I am encouraged by what I have seen from my experiment with sauerkraut, my main interest is in foods that ferment in the gut, rather than in a jar. Foods like sauerkraut seem as though they can act as excellent "starters" for healthy gut fermentation, but I don't think they will ever be a substitute for the kind we do ourselves internally.

One thing of which I have been reminded lately is that heavy metal accumulation can compromise the action of the immune system and GI tract. This may possibly be a root cause for me of gut problems, and I am thinking about having my remaining amalgam fillings removed (properly trained dentists are in short supply in this region). I never had very many of those, and I didn't have any before age 41, but they can still be trouble. I think I am also going to be going back to using my FIR sauna blanket as well. Lately I have been taking warm Epsom salt baths instead, but both can help with detox.

It's good to try to establish healthy gut fermentation (if you have issues with it), I think, but it's also important to look for the reasons that it became unhealthy in the first place.

 

[dugdeep]

I certainly don't think this is enough of an issue to start shovelling ant dirt into your sauerkraut, but maybe that's just me :)

It seems to me that you don't really know, but you are averse to the idea.

Right on both counts. I don't really know, mostly because I haven't been provided any real data. Saying you read somewhere once about something is hardly enough to convince me, or anyone else I would think, to undergo a rather dodgy sounding experiment. You're also right that I'm averse to the idea. I think any logical person would be until presented with some actual evidence of benefit.

I'd say the onus is on you to provide some sort of evidence for what you're saying here, monotonic. I don't disagree with what you've said about bacterial diversity, but I think that's a far cry from 'therefore we should eat ant eggs'. Until some evidence is provided I will continue to be quite skeptical; I think rightly so.

 

[mcb]

...I'd say the onus is on you to provide some sort of evidence for what you're saying here, monotonic. I don't disagree with what you've said about bacterial diversity, but I think that's a far cry from 'therefore we should eat ant eggs'. Until some evidence is provided I will continue to be quite skeptical; I think rightly so.

I think I will leave that experiment for the cats to try, if they come across any ant eggs and want to sample them. We certainly have plenty of ants out back. I find it interesting that in spite of being carnivores, cats do have colons, though more truncated than ours.

 

[Psalehesost]

I've been trying to think of different ways to include fermented foods in ketogenic recipes.

I think the best idea is to just have the sauerkraut raw, as heating it will kill the bacteria. I've had it along with meat and fat - which is great - and also combined it with bone broth, which makes a great "soup". For the latter, the broth should contain (or otherwise have added to it) some bits of meat as well as plenty of fat, and be heated to a temperature comfortable to eat, and then you just put in the kraut.

My experience thus far with sauerkraut: The homemade sauerkraut, unlike the commerical I bought at first, is even better - my body doesn't mind it at all. Just before the experiment, my stomach was in (mild to moderate) uproar following each meal, and I had to limit meal sizes so as to not upset my stomach too much. Now there's no noticeable upset. Bone broth seems to digest better - for a while I avoided it.

My first batch has been fermenting for six days now - after four, it was mildly sour, and now it tastes pretty good, but still improves by the day. (I've had some each day, testing it.) In room temperature a bit over half a week seemed enough to make it useful, though more is certainly needed to make it really good. I'll leave it in room temperature until it runs out; unless something goes wrong, I expect it'll merely continue to improve. Meanwhile the second batch has been started.

Regarding your comments on "starters" and fermentation stages, for each batch I included a bit of finished sauerkraut (for the first, a tiny bit of the commerical one), and CO2 was certainly still produced - the first batch became bubbly the first few days.

 

[mcb]

Whatever is going on, I have been feeling better and better since I started this experiment. I think all of the energy that I lost in 2010 when I took Warfarin for 6 months is back, and it really seems as though I am back where I was before radiation treatment in 2007. My weight is approaching its pre-treatment level as well.

I started noticing these changes after introducing sauerkraut and fermentable fiber to my diet. I can't be sure that that is the only cause, though, because I have also been taking bioidentical T3 hormone and I increased the dose by a small amount (7 micrograms/day) a couple of weeks before adding in sauerkraut.

I am sitting on the back patio right now, with the cats wandering around, wearing a thin blouse and no jacket. My thermometer says 66 (F). It is quite comfortable. I can't explain this -- why I am not cold and why it is so bright and sunny and warm in January.

A breeze is coming up now and I may actually have to put my jacket back on. Oh well, I can't really complain!

 

[Gaby]

Apparently, if you want to avoid mold, you can add fresh horseradish in slices:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYhQWFBtFhA

Some crazy cabbage dancing!

 

[mcb]

Apparently, if you want to avoid mold, you can add fresh horseradish in slices:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYhQWFBtFhA

Some crazy cabbage dancing!

Oh I see, that's how you introduce local bacteria. Well, if you're going to do that then you might as well throw in a few ant eggs too. It couldn't hurt. :)

The bird calls brought my cats running!

 

[Gaby]

Oh I see, that's how you introduce local bacteria. Well, if you're going to do that then you might as well throw in a few ant eggs too. It couldn't hurt. :)

The bird calls brought my cats running!

For a moment I thought she had chickens living in her kitchen.

I'm looking forward to this experiment. Reading everybody's reports makes me hopeful. I want to populate my gut with good stuff.

I also thought about doing non spicy white kimchi. But we'll see. Now I'm having the cabbage soaking for a day like the lady of the crazy cabbage dancing did. But I'll prolly use my hands!

 

[Maya]

I'm making carrots, onions, paprika, cabbage, cucumbers, asparagus, french beans and beet root this way .... mixed (e.g. onions, carrots, garlic and ginger) or each one apart... depends on what is there in the garden at the moment .

And we're eating a small amounts of that (with an olive oil) to add a few bites of carbs here and there...

I just fill the jar with choped vegetables, pour the salted water and leave it in room temperature for a few days till 2 weeks ( according to taste, room temp and sort of veggies) .. it really can't go wrong - Lactobacteries know their job very well :P

 

[mcb]

I'm making carrots, onions, paprika, cabbage, cucumbers, asparagus, french beans and beet root this way .... mixed (e.g. onions, carrots, garlic and ginger) or each one apart... depends on what is there in the garden at the moment .

And we're eating a small amounts of that (with an olive oil) to add a few bites of carbs here and there...

I just fill the jar with choped vegetables, pour the salted water and leave it in room temperature for a few days till 2 weeks ( according to taste, room temp and sort of veggies) .. it really can't go wrong - Lactobacteries know their job very well :P

Yes, there are all sorts of things that can be fermented this way, and it is easy to do. In addition to the potential healing properties, it is also a way of preserving food without heating it and destroying enzymes and vitamins. It is an anaerobic process so it digests carbohydrates, using the energy to produce other more useful things.

As I re-read some of the material in Deep Nutrition I am realizing that "external" fermentation differs from fermentation in the gut in that the constituents do not have to survive passage through the upper GI tract. In effect, fermentation (outside the body) provides another means of "pre-digesting" foods, analogous to the way we pre-digest food by cooking it, but without destroying so many nutrients. To me this is starting to sound like high-potency "supplements" for the cost of brine and vegetables (or maybe even meat), and without the stearate. I may buy that fermentation crock after all!

Here are a few related excerpts from Deep Nutrition:

Pound for pound, fermented material will have more nutrition packed into it than the raw material it came from because, aside from acting like miniature detoxification machines, microbes add heaps of nutrients to whatever it is they’re growing in. Using enzyme power, single-celled bacteria and fungi manufacture all the vitamins, amino acids, nucleic acids, fatty acids (and so on) they need from simple starting materials like sugar, starch, and cellulose. They can thrive on foods that would leave us horribly malnourished. But we are bigger than they are. When we eat yoghurt, real pickles, real sauerkraut—or any food containing living cultures—our digestive juices attack and destroy many of the little critters, exploding their fragile bodies. Many survive (and protect us, see below), but those who are digested donate all their nutritious parts to us...

...The little critters can actually make all the vitamins we need except D, and all the essential amino acids. And they have one more trick up their sleeve. As if it’s not enough that they can free up minerals, preserve our food, manufacture vitamins, and clean up the nasty plant chemicals that our bodies can’t handle, once inside your body, they will literally fight for your life...

...The people who originally mastered the art of fermenting fruits, vegetables, meats, and so on were probably seeking ways to preserve their food. Crops tend to ripen all at once. Fish swim in schools. Many game animals travel in large herds. These periodic abundances necessitated the development of effective food-preservation methods. The microbial world is so obliging that a little salt, a container, and some know-how are all you—I should say the microbes—need.

Shanahan MD, Catherine (2011-04-22). Deep Nutrition: Why Your Genes Need Traditional Food (Kindle Locations 2311-2317, 2319-2321, and 2342-2345). Big Box Books. Kindle Edition.

There are other facets to Dr. Cate's book. She presents what she calls "the Four Pillars of World Cuisine," which are

• Meat on the bone
• Fermented and sprouted foods
• Organs and other “nasty bits,”
• Fresh, unadulterated plant and animal products

I have been incorporating the first and third of these in my diet for the last year or so, after reading this book, and I have recently started to explore the second and fourth ones. I haven't mentioned this previously, but at about the same time I started eating sauerkraut, I switched from using organic packaged herbs (dried) to fresh organic herbs. I just have a few right now -- thyme, oregano, cilantro, and rosemary -- but it makes a huge difference in flavor which suggests that it may be adding significant nutritional value. It certainly makes the limited selection of foods more palatable.

I don't particularly like raw vegetables in general, and a lot of vegetables seem to be mainly good for starch and anti-nutrients, which I don't need, and in the recent past I have tended to avoid them, but this is a complex topic and, given the foods that we have have to choose from today which are not the foods we evolved to eat, I think it is worth closer examination.

You can taste how much nutritional power a given plant is packing: More intense flavor means more intense nutrition. Both nutrient density and flavor intensity result from a bioconcentration of vitamins, minerals, and other nutrient systems. Pungent vegetables like celery, peppers, broccoli, arugula, and garlic contain more antioxidants, vitamins, and minerals per bite than tuberous vegetables like potatoes and turnips. Remember, cooking burns up antioxidants and damages many vitamins. So the more you eat cooked foods, the more you need to balance your diet by eating fresh, uncooked, pungent-tasting herbs and vegetables.

Be aware that raw isn’t always better, thanks to cellulose, the material that gives plants their stiffness and their crispy crunch. Locked within cellulose-rich cell walls, vitamins and minerals in high-cellulose plant products pass right through our omnivore’s digestive system. Without heat or caustic chemicals, cellulose can only be broken down using specialized bacteria and extended gut-fermentation—something humans lack the intestinal yardage to accomplish (though they can replicate it; see section on fermentation, above). Studies show that a mere one percent of the retinoids (vitamin A precursors) in raw carrots, for instance, get absorbed.181 But cooking (which hydrolyzes cellulose in much the same way it hydrolyzes proteins) increases that percentage to thirty.,182 Only a short list of plant parts are low enough in cellulose for our digestive enzymes to break them down without either cooking or fermenting them first, and these include fresh herbs and spices, nuts and fruits, and young, tender lettuce leaves and other leafy greens.

Shanahan MD, Catherine (2011-04-22). Deep Nutrition: Why Your Genes Need Traditional Food (Kindle Locations 2420-2432). Big Box Books. Kindle Edition.

I am starting to think of the human digestive tract as a "two stomach" system. What we call the stomach is the first one, and what we call the colon -- our fermenter -- is the second one. There are advantages and disadvantages to having the bacterial fermentation take place at the end of the tract. Some other mammals do much more intense microbial digestion up front, which lets them directly digest more of the plant nutrients mentioned in the above quote. We don't have that, thanks in part to the engineering requirements of our compact and mobile bodies (would you really want the body of a cow???), but we can compensate in other ways including eating animals that thoroughly digest plants, cooking, and fermentation.

 

[monotonic]

Maybe another way of getting more out of broth bones would be, once they're cooked, to throw them in with a fermenting sauerkraut? WRT lactobacilli and minerals.

 

[monotonic]

Sauerkraut Survivor!

http://www.nourishingtreasures.com/index.php/2012/07/03/sauerkraut-survivor-final-report/

Here is a test of various vessel sealing methods. Quite nice to know. Here is a later post worth reading as well:

http://www.nourishingtreasures.com/index.php/2013/01/22/bustin-the-myth-of-the-3-day-kraut-p-s-dont-refrigerate-it-either/

And yet another gem:

Mistake #1: You refrigerate your ferment 3-10 days after you pack your jar
This is the biggest mistake I see people making — not leaving their ferment on their counter longer before transferring to cold storage. If you want maximum probiotics in your sauerkraut (and I think we all do!), you’ll want to let your ferment go through the three stages of fermentation. This is particularly important if you are trying to heal your gut.

In a temperature of 65 – 72 degrees the first stage bacteria, Leuconostoc mesenteroides, are happiest. This is the average temperature in your home, which works out well. At this temp, the first stage bacteria kick in around day 3 and lasts until day 7.

Refrigeration slows down food spoilage; I think we all know this. In the case of fermenting, you are also slowing down the bacterial action. The LABs (lactic-acid producing bacteria) dislike cold, and they cannot truly thrive in it (read: prolifically reproduce). So, you want to leave your sauerkraut out a minimum of four weeks to give time for your sauerkraut to go through all three bacteria stages.

You can view the difference in the maturity and density of the LABs when you view the photos of the sauerkraut brine on Day 3 and Day 7 and then on Day 28.

Remember, fermentation is a method of preserving food. Leaving it on your counter gives it more time for the LAB activity to increase — which, in turn, lowers pH — and prevents spoilage. As long as your jar can keep out the oxygen, you shouldn’t be worried.

http://www.foodrenegade.com/3-biggest-fermenting-mistakes-youre-already-making/

Fido jars as I believe they are called have a thick glass lid with a locking wire harness and rubber gasket. These are designed to be safe when pressure builds up inside, which is a potential hazard for mason jars. You want some constant pressure so that gas is always flowing out, and oxygen is not let in to feed mold spores and aerobic bacteria. Also, you can make carbonated ferments if you don't release the pressure, which is fun.

4 weeks is a long time to wait, so when starting a fermenting regimen I had the idea of packing 4 jars first; and opening one each week. Each successive week you'd have a jar of sauerkraut that had fermented for one week longer - so you still get to have some relatively soon and you also have the experience of learning how the taste evolves. During this time you'd be packing an additional jar each week, and these jars will all be for 4 week ferments and you'll continue with this so that you'll always have a jar of 4-week kraut on hand. Assuming you go through a jar a week. You could even adapt this to 8 week kraut, which is supposed to be even better according to the above Nourishing Treasures blog.

 

[Gaby]

Thought you guys might be interested in this article:

The microbiome-gut-brain axis: from bowel to behavior

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2982.2010.01664.x/full

J. F. Cryan, S. M. O’Mahony. Neurogastroenterology & Motility, Volume 23, Issue 3, pages 187–192, March 2011

Abstract

The ability of gut microbiota to communicate with the brain and thus modulate behavior is emerging as an exciting concept in health and disease. The enteric microbiota interacts with the host to form essential relationships that govern homeostasis. Despite the unique enteric bacterial fingerprint of each individual, there appears to be a certain balance that confers health benefits. It is, therefore, reasonable to note that a decrease in the desirable gastrointestinal bacteria will lead to deterioration in gastrointestinal, neuroendocrine or immune relationships and ultimately disease. Therefore, studies focusing on the impact of enteric microbiota on the host and in particular on the central nervous system are essential to our understanding of the influence of this system. Recent studies published in this Journal demonstrate that germ-free mice display alterations in stress-responsivity, central neurochemistry and behavior indicative of a reduction in anxiety in comparison to conventional mice. Such data offer the enticing proposition that specific modulation of the enteric microbiota may be a useful strategy for stress-related disorders and for modulating the co-morbid aspects of gastrointestinal disorders such as irritable bowel syndrome and inflammatory bowel disease.

The gut-brain axis

The bidirectional signaling between the gastrointestinal tract and the brain is vital for maintaining homeostasis and is regulated at the neural (both central and enteric nervous systems), hormonal and immunological levels. Perturbation of these systems results in alterations in the stress-response and overall behavior.1 The high co-morbidity between stress-related psychiatric symptoms such as anxiety with gastrointestinal disorders including irritable bowel disorder (IBS) and inflammatory bowel disorder (IBD)2,3 are further evidence of the importance of this axis. However, increasing evidence also suggests that the enteric microbiome greatly impacts on gut-brain communication leading to the coining of the phrase the brain-gut enteric microbiota axis1 (illustrated in Fig. 1). The exact mechanisms governing such communication are unclear and most studies to date focus on the impact of altered signaling from the brain to the gut.4,5 Recent emerging studies are investigating the impact of the guts’ microbiota on brain and behavior. Approaches used to parse the role of gut microbiota on brain function include assessing the impact of probiotic agents, antibiotic-induced dysbiosis and pathogenic infections6–9 each of which we will discuss below.[...]

Behavioral and neurochemical consequences of growing up germ-free

Neufeld and colleagues in this issue of this Journal11 use female germ-free mice to demonstrate that the absence of a conventional microbiota results in a reduction in anxiety behavior in the elevated plus maze, a well validated model of anxiolytic action (see Fig. 1). These authors also show an upregulation in the expression of brain derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) mRNA in the dentate gyrus of the hippocampus of these germ-free animals. Brain derived neurotrophic factor is crucial for supporting neuronal survival and encouraging the growth and differentiation of new neurons and synapses and thus is involved in the regulation of multiple aspects of cognitive and emotional behaviors.12 Whilst there is a clear relationship between chronic stress states, major depression and BDNF,13 the association between anxiety and BDNF appears to be more complex with the authors finding positive, negative and no correlation between hippocampal levels and anxiety.14–16 Thus, it is unclear whether the changes in hippocampal BDNF observed in the study of Neufeld and colleagues actually relates to the behavioral changes observed.[...]

Probiotics and behavior/central neurotransmitters

Probiotics are beneficial in the treatment of the gastrointestinal symptoms of disorders such as IBS.20 Clinical evidence is mounting to support the role of probiotic intervention in reducing the anxiety and stress response as well as improving mood in IBS patients and those with chronic fatigue.21–23 Recently, a study assessing the effect of a combination of Lactobacillus helveticus and Bifidobacterium longum on both human subjects and rats showed that these probiotics reduced anxiety in animals and had beneficial psychological effects with a decrease in serum cortisol in patients.24 While the mechanism of action is not known, some probiotics do have the potential to lower inflammatory cytokines,20,25 decrease oxidative stress and improve nutritional status.21 The modulation of systemic inflammatory cytokines and oxidative stress could potentially lead to increased BDNF,21 known to be involved in depression and anxiety.13,14

Lactobacillus reuteri, a potential probiotic known to modulate the immune system26 decreases anxiety as measured on the elevated plus maze as well as reducing the stress-induced increase of corticosterone in mice.27 This probiotic alters the mRNA expression of both GABAA and GABAB receptors in the central nervous system. Alterations in these receptors are associated with anxious and depressive-like behaviors in animal models. Vagotomy in these animals prevented the anxiolytic and antidepressant effects of this bacterium as well as the effects on the central GABA receptors. This suggests that parasympathetic innervation [vagus nerve] is necessary for L. reuteri to participate in the microbiota-brain interaction.

Previous studies28 have shown that probiotic agents can modulate antidepressant-like behavior with Bifidobacterium infantis having antidepressant properties in the forced swim test, a well-established model in the evaluation of pharmacological antidepressant activity.29 Chronic B. infantis administration also led to a suppression in stimulation-induced increases in peripheral pro-inflammatory cytokines and increases in plasma tryptophan,28 both of which have been implicated in depression.30,31 We have also investigated the impact of B. infantis on a preclinical model of IBS (maternal separation model)32 and showed that this bacterium was able to reverse some of the early-life stress-induced changes.

Taken together, it is clear that certain probiotic strains can modulate various aspects of the microbiome-gut-brain axis.33 However, these effects are bacterial strain dependent and care must be taken in extrapolating data obtained from one organism to another. Nonetheless, the accumulating data suggest a clear ability of probiotic and potential probiotic strains to modulate brain and behavior.[...]