Free will question?

[Laura]

I will have to admit I have been able to gain control over the action part. I think about something, feel the emotion (thats when I recognize its a program) and then I DON"T react to that emotion or try to react in a different way then I feel (don't know if its better to just not react let it pass). But what I ment before is that the thinking./emotion part is part of the program and if more knowledge and growth in being will enable me to be at a level where I get to the point where I can notice the thinking and not allow the emotion to come up or not think about it at all then thats great news. Not easy and wont happen anytime soon I know but as Red said in Shawshank Redemtion...Hope is a good thing

I think that the key is in having a different experience in response to your acts of making different choices which creates a new history and a new view of life. But you have to do it first, and sometimes for awhile, before those things start activating.

 

[Menna]

I see I see. I guess lazyness is my downfall...Anyway much food for thought thanks

 

[mcb]

...First you acquire some level of knowledge about what programs are, what they look like, how they work. That is the knowledge in the books we recommend here. Then, you accept theoretically, that you are little more than a series of programs and routines that run mechanically and you begin to observe yourself until you begin to see this in yourself. Indeed, some people never can because they don't appear to have an "observing part" of the self that is necessary for this work. As Gurdjieff puts it, some people are machines with no "essence." The Cs describe them as Organic Portals.

For me, there was always -- as far back as I can remember into late childhood -- a line over which I would not intentionally cross in my behavior. I had an observer with which I could intercede in what I was doing. When I did cross the line inadvertently, it was a major issue that I had to address if I were to maintain my integrity. I have been repeatedly shocked (to this day) seeing the actions of other individuals that seem to completely lack such boundaries when dealing with others. I am not quite as shocked today, having come to understand some of the differences that exist.

Of course my observer is more experienced and capable now than it was in childhood. But it can only develop if it exists to begin with and is encouraged from within.

Some of the psychology books we read and discuss may assume nothing but mechanical actions exist - "Thinking, fast and slow..." for example, where he divides the self into System 1 and System 2, and proposes that both are basically mechanical. Doesn't matter, the information he gives about how the systems work can be very useful to you in understanding how little actual control you have of your thinking/emotions/reactions. ..

I may have misread Kahneman, something that is not hard to do when you are listening to audiobooks, but I thought that he included the idea of a trained and developed system 2. Maybe I am confusing his book with others that I read around the same time.

 

[Laura]

I may have misread Kahneman, something that is not hard to do when you are listening to audiobooks, but I thought that he included the idea of a trained and developed system 2. Maybe I am confusing his book with others that I read around the same time.

Certainly he talks about a trained and developed System 2, but it's still mechanical to him, and everything that happens is just "luck" because the WHOLE cosmic system is mechanical.

 

[Eongar]

I think the programs are like tics, only more complex. That is, are habits that while we understand the origin of them, sometimes arise. Occurs to me that although I realize my program, sometimes the same show. Works for me, once I understood the reason for that program, remove the habit by doing something contrary, as the context.

An example for a better understanding of: Years ago, I walked hunched over, not realizing I bent, was a habit. Then I learned a little exercise that helped me to straighten up, and although at first I did not remember it, with repetition of exercise have got back in a healthy position, and I no longer bent, no longer a "normal" posture to me.

I approach with programs similar: these impulses stop being aware of when they arise, and when you have custom by repetition, in the end that program transforms and disappears. Just my 2 cents, maybe I'm wrong.

 

[bngenoh]

...The book sounds interesting, maybe you could do a review for the forum with excerpts that you find particularly worthy, as i am not in the financial position to buy purchase anything at the moment and there are probably others in the same position. Only if you are able though.

It is interesting. The author draws upon other author's materials, but I found his presentation very helpful. He does go into details of brain function, which I appreciate, but I don't recall that he says anything about the vagus nerve. Researchers often don't seem to think about the system as a whole -- there seems to be a bias toward thinking that everything important happens in the "thinking part" -- the brain. And the polyvagal theory with all its implications has yet to catch on with a lot of them.

Not surprising that they don't or rather can't envision the system as a whole, if one factors in the pathocratic systems of the so called first world countries, and their concomitant infestation with malfunctioning machines, then....

The reason I don't review books more often is that my eyesight is poor and I do most of my reading using audiobooks. To prepare a review in a reasonable amount of time I would have to buy a Kindle copy (if available) in addition to the audiobook and I read a lot of books, so I don't do that often. Actual "print" books are a big problem, and I am just very glad that some of them like The 5th Option are printed using a decent font size!

Okay, i understand Megan.

Daniel Goleman also explores the role of emotion in decisions. He has a couple of books on emotional intelligence, and there is a thread, The Amygdala Hijack and more, that starts with a link to one of his talks.

One thing that I remember having stood out for me at the time I watched it, was an example he gave of a patient of another colleague of his who, due to an accident, had a damaged connection between the amygdala and his pre frontal cortex. The amygdala is associated with our emotional centre in the brain, and this patient was completely unable to make a decision, even on the most random matters. Because he lacked that emotional component everything was analytically measured, and he simply couldn't decide what to follow, since again, he lacked what seems to prompt decision: a connection to his emotions. I'm unsure now of whether he actually felt emotions and simply couldn't interpret them, or whether they had become absent.

"I" remember Daniel Goleman's work, you bringing it up ignited questions in me which led to the formation of a hypothesis. The hypothesis, based on observation, experience, analysis, and reasoning is:

For the mind, at least insofar as i have plumed it. What exists for it are possibilities, with varying probabilities of certainty. These possibilities exist in a state of flux, their "solidity" for the mind, a measure of it's certainty, depend upon the information available to it. As such, the mind is merely a tool, just like the body is also a tool. That is why the mind & body are so strongly coupled together, they have an affinity for each other. In this view, mind & body cannot choose anything, as they are merely tools for the gathering, processing, & transmission of information.

That which can choose, is of a vastly different nature, quality, and configuration. It is what Gurdjieff called essence, osit, and what i would call spirit. Spirit/essence & emotion are strongly coupled together, the same way mind & body are. The mind & body have various mechanisms to translate the information communicated by spirit into thoughts, among other "things."

Since the ability to choose, which is free will, is greatly determined by the availability of information, and the proper usage of various tools to analyze, process, & utilize said information. The tools used for analysis cannot pick and choose a given course of action, any more than a computer can choose to surf the internet. The user of the mind & body is the only "thing" that can choose. The user=spirit=essence, osit.

The importance of knowing one's machine, is thusly reinforced, for the ability to discern between internal & external influences being translated, and thus perceived as self by the mind, depends upon the state of development of the observer. It is the observer in the mind, which is a result of efforts to observe oneself, and reality, that makes it possible to even begin to perceive the communications of spirit through emotion as intention, and thus be able to begin to exercise freewill osit. The observer is that which can pave the way for the seating of that which is, in the mind, it is nothing more but a "height" that has been attained through intentional suffering, and conscious efforts, that is why and how it can observe osit. Thus we can reconcile the Gurdjeffian view that humans are machines, with the Cassiopaean view of organic portals and souled humans.

I agree, it seems to build strength like a muscle that is exercised.
I would also add what seems to me to be a very important step, the fight against the wants, needs, desires of whatever our first and most immediate impulses dictate (and that most often have no resemblance whatsoever to our real aims). In other words, doing the opposite of "it" wants.

Yep Gertrudes, but that is only the beginning, osit.

How can one catch a program (Completely) before it begins. Wouldn't that be the equivlent of not having any programs? how do you prevent, recognize or stop something before it begins how do you know THAT is what was going to begin?

"I" only speak from my knowledge, observations and experience. You know what is going to happen, by stalking the predator, knowing it's habits, where it likes to go among other behaviors. So naturally, after a certain period of gathering and analyzing the information from "it" you can predict what "it" is going to do. It is very simple really, the biologist who studies a particular animal, can predict with great precision and accuracy, what that animal is going to do in any given instance. The accuracy of the prediction is greatly dependent upon the biologist him/herself but also, the quality & quantity of the data gathered, and the methods used to analyze and process that data.

I think you can lesson the frequency of the programs through objective awareness of what is/knowledge but If you notice a program then it has already begun. It is at the very least taking your attention away from the present moment because you are noticing it you are noticing something in your inner world that takes part of yur perception away from the outer world...You arent catching it before it begins it has begun.

True that if you notice a program, it has already begun, but the thing is you can stop it when you notice it, this prevents "it" from diverting one's energies, into states of wishful thinking, etc. Noticing programs may take attention from the present moment, but that is where self observation comes in, it is a constant monitoring of both the inner and outer environment simultaneously, and the changes that are ever present, because they are both of equal value, osit. This constant monitoring gives rise to an acute awareness of the present moment, since one is constantly exercising vigilance. A quote comes to mind "Eternal vigilance is the price we pay for freedom."

ADDED: "I" think when the word before, is used here to denote the spotting of the predator. We are describing what the observer perceives. You see consciousness has many layers. Spotting the predator, is sensing it, when it begins to distort inputs from within, i think the foreign installation in our minds is at the pre-conscious layer of consciousness. It is like metamaterials, distorting and bending the inputs reaching it, which is probably why most cannot SEE or sense it. It's engineered, for all intents and purposes, to be invisible to consciousness. Only the observer has this sensing ability, osit.

 

[Gertrudes]

I agree, it seems to build strength like a muscle that is exercised.
I would also add what seems to me to be a very important step, the fight against the wants, needs, desires of whatever our first and most immediate impulses dictate (and that most often have no resemblance whatsoever to our real aims). In other words, doing the opposite of "it" wants.

Yep Gertrudes, but that is only the beginning, osit.

Yes, it can be the beginning, but it can also be one step of the way, I think, as well as a tool, and a technique we can exercise and develop to further strengthen will.
For me, the one (big) thing that has invariably made me go forward with what seemed to me to be the most impossible of tasks, was to understand and address my Aim. A clear aim, an aim that truly comes from the very depths of you, will, should you stick to it, usually manifest. Addressing my aim, is for me a true exercise in will.
Aim will in itself tend to recruit all of those "techniques" (such as doing what "it" doesn't want) naturally, so that without even being necessarily fully aware of it, you are exercising several qualities in you in the name of Aim.

However, life isn't usually made of a continuous stream of challenging - yet very precious - moments where the formulation of an aim is needed from you in order to surpass whichever obstacle is presented. When in the absence of those moments, I've been finding that I tend to stay much more on track when I push myself to work on will and self discipline by exercising some of their qualities independently. This can be done with the most mundane of tasks.

Lately I've been practicing what "it" doesn't want :)

Edit: changed a few sentences

 

[RedFox]

The emotional connection to decision making is interesting, as well as the possibility of the vegus nerve in observation. The vegus nerve is connected to the viscera - visceral response? The gut being the most effected by what we eat too, so healthy food = healthy gut responce. EE = healthy vegus responce (communication between gut and brain). Knowledge of what to look for with the recommended reading can then be used by the mind (responding to the body/gut triggers) to self observe.

Separating/untangling (not identifying with) emotional responces from thoughts is one useful step in back tracking programs. Perhaps reprogramming the emotional responce would help undo the programs?
I might try pipe breathing next time I notice a program and see if I can create an association between the program and the relaxed/alert/observing state induced by pipe breathing. With enough practice as soon as the program is triggered you should automatically become relaxed/alert without the need to pipe breath (Pavlovian responce)....now that would be interesting.

 

[bngenoh]

For me, the one (big) thing that has invariably made me go forward with what seemed to me to be the most impossible of tasks, was to understand and address my Aim. A clear aim, an aim that truly comes from the very depths of you, will, should you stick to it, usually manifest. Addressing my aim, is for me a true exercise in will.
Aim will in itself tend to recruit all of those "techniques" (such as doing what "it" doesn't want) naturally, so that without even being necessarily fully aware of it, you are exercising several qualities in you in the name of Aim.

True, very true, but to remember, and be as aware as one can in every moment of one's aim, is also another exercise in will, osit.

However, life isn't usually made of a continuous stream of challenging - yet very precious - moments where the formulation of an aim is needed from you in order to surpass whichever obstacle is presented. When in the absence of those moments, I've been finding that I tend to stay much more on track when I push myself to work on will and self discipline by exercising some of their qualities independently. This can be done with the most mundane of tasks.

What you call the "most mundane of tasks," can also be perceived as challenges, because to me life is "made of a continuous stream of challenging yet very precious moments." One of the challenges is to recognize the challenge, as such, another is to asses what is to be learned, then learn it. The challenges are one of the most precious of gifts, bequeathed to us by God, and it is one of the ways we interact with it:

Life experiences reflect how one interacts with God. Those who are asleep are those of little faith in terms of their interaction with the creation. Some people think that the world exists for them to overcome or ignore or shut out. For those individuals, the worlds will cease. They will become exactly what they give to life. They will become merely a dream in the "past." People who pay strict attention to objective reality right and left, become the reality of the "Future."

This is also an exercise of one's will, because it puts one in the state of paying strict attention to the present, that exists, both within & without, thus we begin to open up to the "expanded present."

Done consistently, one realizes that, :O wait a minute, this is normal and natural, then it just becomes one of the traits that is inherent in one, but expressed consciously, instead of haphazardly. It becomes more about remembering who one is, then a distinct familiarity and logic is shed upon all that is SEEn and experienced.

Separating/untangling (not identifying with) emotional responces from thoughts is one useful step in back tracking programs. Perhaps reprogramming the emotional responce would help undo the programs?
I might try pipe breathing next time I notice a program and see if I can create an association between the program and the relaxed/alert/observing state induced by pipe breathing. With enough practice as soon as the program is triggered you should automatically become relaxed/alert without the need to pipe breath (Pavlovian responce)....now that would be interesting.

That is an interesting experiment, RedFox, i shall also try it, and analyze it's effects, if it works like you have hypothesized, a new invaluable tool will have been acquired, that should increase the rate of progress.

Wait, wait wait, i just realized that i have been doing that throughout my life to tune into myself in moments of silence automatically. Wow, now to do it consciously, and with the intent to SEE, the causes in greater detail.

 

[Menna]

RedFox - I was at my friends house and his wife made some desert. Being on the Paleo diet cake doesnt really go. I have a problem if I stray from a diet even alittle bit it most often leads into a binge...So in order to not be rude when she offered me her desert I had a few bites. After I felt the need to eat everything on the table. I then tried to observe myself I sat back in the chair and took about 5 or 6 deep breaths. The urge to eat more crap died down and I became more relaxed and was able to enter back into the conversation and forget about food. This does work in terms of relaxing when temptation/urge comes about.

 

[Oxajil]

RedFox - I was at my friends house and his wife made some desert. Being on the Paleo diet cake doesnt really go. I have a problem if I stray from a diet even alittle bit it most often leads into a binge...So in order to not be rude when she offered me her desert I had a few bites.

I don't think it's rude to say you'd rather not, you can say that you're on a strict diet. That's what I do, and eventually my family members and friends understood, and don't think it's rude of me anymore to pass on what they offer me. They see that I'm pretty serious about it, and they have learned to respect my decision. Fwiw.

 

[RedFox]

So in order to not be rude when she offered me her desert I had a few bites. After I felt the need to eat everything on the table.

It's good that you managed to take a step back and breathe and stop yourself. Now you've done it once, you should be able to do so again.

To add to what Oxajil says, it could be that the 'not wanting to be rude' produced anxiety - so rather than face the anxiety you ate. Perhaps when you find yourself thinking you may be being rude (or are in a social situation that makes you feel uncomfortable) it may be that a program has started running already, and it would be a good time to breathe and see what happens? :)

 

[Nienna]

RedFox - I was at my friends house and his wife made some desert. Being on the Paleo diet cake doesnt really go. I have a problem if I stray from a diet even alittle bit it most often leads into a binge...So in order to not be rude when she offered me her desert I had a few bites. After I felt the need to eat everything on the table. I then tried to observe myself I sat back in the chair and took about 5 or 6 deep breaths. The urge to eat more crap died down and I became more relaxed and was able to enter back into the conversation and forget about food. This does work in terms of relaxing when temptation/urge comes about.

To add to what others have said, if it was cake that you ate, and you are truly on the paleo diet, that means no gluten. Eating only a few bites of cake has put gluten back into your system, which then takes 6 months to fully get out of your system. Is this not reason enough to refuse the cake? It really is evil, Menna. It causes so many health problems it is actually evil for your body and mind.

There are good ways to say you cannot eat these things. Like telling people you are gluten sensitive or you have found out that sugar does really bad things to you now that you have quit it. Things that put it on you as to why you cannot eat the dessert.

I agree with Oxajil and RedFox, your "be nice" program was running. And this is a very hard program to stop. We all do not want to hurt other people's feelings. But if you phrase things right, it won't hurt their feelings. You could tell your friend's wife that it looks absolutely delicious and you find it hard to refuse, but you know how hard you will pay for it afterwards by feeling unwell and just cannot eat it.

Sugar is evil, yes, but it does not stay in the body like gluten does. Gluten and dairy are things that stay with the body for a long six months, working their evil.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Yeah, very good points. There ARE ways you can refuse and still make it known that the offer is appreciated, but your health won't allow you to accept, Menna. And as NE said, there's no in between when it comes to being gluten-free: you either are or you aren't. Even trace contamination could cause inflammation havoc throughout the system. And as she also said, sugar's evil, but at least it's toxic effects leave the system within several days.

 

[Menna]

Didn't know it stays in for 6 months. Damn I thought a week or two back on the diet would rid me of it. Ok thanks. Yes I have a be nice program.