Grover Furr: Stalin was demonized

Andrey Fursov, is a good historian. His deep analysis (including old families, masonry/Illuminati) is always full of detail of how deep state through history organized, tried to control countries/ our lifes...
It depends on what you consider "good". Fursov is a product of Soviet era education which, especially when it comes to history, was obviously heavily biased. He still uses that marxist language that is hard to comprehend for most humans and sounds "sophisticate", while in fact is just propagandist (in the best case, if not plain schizoidal). Remember, there is a programme for everyone. In my opinion, Fursov offers one for atheist/agnostic Russians interested in conspiracy theories and all kinds of New-Age not-so-fresh salads. Notice, in one of his lectures, he recommended Levashov's sect's crappola kramola (Крамола) website as a great source for those who are searching for truth, and his writings are still happily hosted on ru-an.info

Used to listen to his videos and considered him "an interesting historian". Now, I think he's a very specific propagandist and spellbinder. Most of his "charm" loses its power though when you read him instead of listening. It's much easier then to see how little he actually says, how little of what he says he supports with evidence, and how he manipulates while offering a superficial yet exciting (only for initiated!) worldview. He makes sure his followers feel "special". White-washing of Stalin is part of it - there are quite many Russians still living by the myth of "Koba"; they need a custom-made propaganda, too, so they get it. BTW, still remember Fursov quoting somewhere Zinoviev as saying something along the line: "the Russian soul is a Russian mess transferred to each head one by one" (I'm citing and translating from memory, so may not be exact) to support one of his own claims. Oh well.
 
How come more 80+ percent of Russian people adore Stalin...why is that? Terror and bloodthirstiness? Facts? From where it comes? Propaganda?

I notice you didn’t address the actual point that I made, though: that you’re sharing pathological material.

It’s Andrey Fursov who is calling for some sort of ‘social justice’ which would bring ‘sovereign greatness’, and for ‘revenge’.

That should raise red flags for you, Anthony. But you have demonstrated time and again here on the forum a serious lack of discernment on the subjects of Russia and Ukraine. At this point, it’s unfortunately obvious that you have either no desire or no capacity for objectivity and when you are called out on it you either defend yourself behind the idea of ‘open-minded balance’ to the subject matter, or you simply don’t respond at all.

There usually comes a time in most people’s participation here where they are faced with a certain situation: they see things one way, and the majority of other members see things a different way. In this situation, the member has a choice. Either they accept the possibility that numerous members’ perceptions taken together as a whole are likely to be more accurate, or to reject that possibility, and with it, the whole principle of networking.

If they decide on the first of the two possibilities, then they can only proceed by facing the terrifying (at first) idea that what they believe about the subject they’re discussing is incorrect, the further implications being that if they’re wrong about the subject, then they could basically be wrong about everything else they think they know. But from that real starting place, real progress can be made.

If they choose the latter and reject the probability that they are less likely to be able to see things objectively compared to the group as a whole, then there’s really no need for them to continue to post about the subject anymore. They are never going to convince everyone else of their viewpoint, and anyone who has been observing the way they interact here will not be particularly motivated to engage with them, other than for reasons of highlighting the flaws in their ideas due to the fact that lies, propaganda, analyses based on ideologies and emotional thinking, viewpoints lacking objective data, and downright egocentric stubbornness are not welcome here, and the rest of us have a responsibility to defend the principles on which this forum was founded.
 
Possibility of Being and Approaching Infinity,
Thanks for your constructive comments! 👍

I don’t want this thread to drown in energy draining discussion, but i would like to shortly summarize (long read though💁‍♂️).

Stalin is a unique historical ‘phenomenon’ which built/made our great country in the last century (from peasants to space and we are still ‘eating/surviving on his heritage’).
I understand why most forumites, living mostly in western countries, evaluate him as tyrant. Sorry for such analogy, but you were ‘breastfed’ with that idea/myth/propaganda. He was not angel, of course (by the way as Caesar - also killed people/enemies. Righteous anger called?).
In that circumstances as my country was in 20-30-40 and futher on - was totally surrounded by enemy ‘predators’ (i am talking about elites, not the ordinary people that were persuaded/‘zombied’ that way). He even managed to use capitalist contradictions/difference in their aims (most of them were feeding Hitler) - attract western investments, technology for the industrialization (genius move). By the way interesting from the point of view sts/sto balance (circles within circles, grey zone in the middle etc. on top👆ruling organizations on our Big blue marble).

He made an impossible, Russia not only defeated fascism, though only temporarily ( as we know, that nazis offsprings re-conquered most of the country’s top positions), as i wrote previously - he disrupted the trial run organised by 4d sts intended for humanity premature invasion/ ‘destruction’.
Now, step back a little - reflect and deeply think about it.
Stemming from this, could most of the rubbish/lies/bloodthirsty myths about him by the western schwabs and even our oligarchs elite - be the reason/motivation for this? Please answer for yourself.
As you said that we (with Fursov) have bias towards soviet era. Yes, i am russian, who is proud and love my country, people, incredible and great history including hardships and drawbacks. As absolute majority of russians. Paradox, don’t you think? Imagine, descendants of people whom as propaganda says were killed by Stalin by tens of millions - are grateful to him till today? (Stockholm’s syndrom on country scale maybe?!).
For instance, have you heard of Pol Pot of Cambodia, real psycho butcher, being adored? Hmm..
Even our youth despite of destroyed (by western manuals and still not cancelled) modern education system with Stalin being slandered - started digging and came to a positive evaluation 🤔

T.C., from your permission, i may assume that i deserved your tirade.

Dear forumites, i perfectly understand that each of us is of different nation, background, experience, but as we all met here, meaning our souls were not satisfied with ‘matrix’ (as Gurdjieff wrote (paraphrasing) you have to disappoint in the deal of your life, does not matter what sphere). It leads to the wake up call of soul/destiny. And as Challenge accepted, we start searching/digging for answers why the picture is not full. In my case, the Russian historical, modern time themes - the mosaic just does not add up (if applying forum’s view). Me and a lot of people i know were many times rethinking the picture close to your narrative, but the real deals of our leadership (not their words from mass media) just did not hold the stress tests and positively ‘desired’ picture was everytime shattered to pieces through constant dissonance.

Here goes excerpts from the sociological study, which might be found interesting and useful (excuse me for difficult format, had to on smartphone auto translate the text from paper version-goes by page):

‘Improving the quality of individual judgments’
Expert forecasting research reveals that the average quality of individual judgments varies considerably. In the experiments that were carried out, individual specialists systematically produced better results than the rest of the participants. This stimulated the search for characteristics that would explain the observed differences. Their identification provides the basis for the selection of the most capable of forecasting experts. In addition , targeted cultivation of the necessary skills can be incorporated into analyst training programs . The Psychological Profile of Expert Forecasters The Good Judgment Project ( GJP ) led by F. Tetlock , B. Mellers and D. Moore made a significant contribution to identifying the personality traits inherent in successful forecasters - more than 4 thousand volunteers. They were asked to evaluate the probability of political and economic events on the horizon of several months. In the first four years, almost a million forecasts were collected and compared with subsequent events. Each year, the organizers singled out the top 2% of participants as "superforecasters". An analysis of their psychological portraits revealed features that increase the accuracy of assessments. They were distinguished by permanent dissatisfaction with the results, combined with a passion for self-improvement. Equally important are openness of thinking, rejection of dogmatism, striving for the synthesis of opposing opinions. Internal uncertainty made superforecasters sensitive to new information. This difference persists regardless of the type and subject of forecasts. It is also stable over time
(Footnotes).
(see: Tetlock P.E. Expert political judgment: How good is it? How can we know? Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2005; Mellers B. et al. Identifying and cultivating superforecasters as a method of improving probabilistic predictions // Perspectives on Psychological Science 2015 Vol 10 3 P 267-281) The results of the project are reflected in research articles and a popular science publication (see: Mellers B. et al. Psychological strategies for winning a geopolitical forecasting tournament // Psychological science. 2014. Vol. 25. No. 5. P. 1106-1115; Mellers B. et al., The psychology of intelligence analysis: drivers of prediction accuracy in world politics // Joumal of experimental psychology: applied, 2015. Vol. 21. No. 1; Mellers B. et al., Identifying and cultivating superforecasters as a Tetlock P.E., Gardner D. Superforecasting: The art and science of prediction N.Y.: Random House, 2016 ) .

Formal logic and estimates of probability
Mathematical mentality is a serious help in foreign policy forecasting. Studies have shown that minimal training in probability theory and cognitive psychology markedly improves the quality of assessments. The developments carried out confirm that expressing the probability of events as a percentage, rather than verbal estimates, improves the accuracy of forecasts. It also benefited from the analyst's tendency to break down a problem into many sub-questions and formulate a general conclusion after answering each one. A useful skill in forecasting is regularly adjusting estimates over time. The strategy of small but frequent adjustments (involving revising the probability of occurrence of events by a few percent at a time) is preferred. It follows Bayes's theorem, which requires that conclusions be updated as new information becomes available, taking into account the prior probability of the predicted event occurring, the degree of expectation of new information in the context of the prior probability, and the reliability of new information. Analysis of Competing Hypotheses Along with the elements of formal logic , the method of analysis of competing hypotheses ( Analysis of Competing Hypotheses , ACH ) is applied . It reduces subjective bias through algorithmization. Initially, the specialist identifies options for the development of events. After that, collects evidence that characterizes the likelihood of their implementation. Forms a matrix in which columns correspond to options and rows to evidence. Matches each evidence with each option, calculating a rebuttal index.
(Footnotes)
Examples of verbal assessments are expressions: "with high probability", "probably", "unlikely", etc. (see: Friedman J.A. et al. The value of precision in probability assessment: Evidence from a large - scale geopolitical forecasting tournament // International Studies Quarterly. 2018. Vol. 62. No. 2. P. 410-422; Dhami M.K. , Mandel D. R. Words or numbers - Communicating probability in intelligence analysis // American Psychologist 2021 Vol 76 No 3) . For example , when discussing the plan for the landing of anti - Castro rebels in Cuba in 1961 , the head of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff described the operation as having a " fair chance of success " . Subsequently, he admitted that in the assessment he proceeded from the fact that the probability of failure was 3 to 1. Meanwhile, the US president took the expression "substantial chances of success “ as an assurance that the operation would most likely lead to the overthrow of F. Castro. Logically, Bayes' theorem is expressed as the formula (please see the foto below-could not insert it here), where P ( A \ B ) is the probability of judgment A given the event B ; P ( B \ A ) - the probability of the event B under the condition that the judgment A is true; P ( A ) - assessment of the probability of proposition A before the event in occurred; P(B) is the probability that event B actually happened. Thus, the Theorem formalizes an intuitively understandable, but often ignored dependence: the less expected event B was, based on previous assumptions, and the more reliable our knowledge about it, the more it should change the idea of the situation. Heuer R. J. Psychology of intelligence analysis. Washington DC: Center for the Study of Intelligence, 1999.

Collective Forms of Forecasting
The predominance of individual forms of analysis and forecasting in international political research is largely due to established practices and resource constraints. It is also methodologically supported by fears of erosion of responsibility in collective work. The corresponding risks are reflected in the concept of " groupthink " proposed by Irving Janis . The latter linked errors in assessments of the situation with the desire for conformity of the members of the team. Subsequent research has demonstrated the propensity for small, tightly integrated groups to exclude people with dissimilar views. In the future, similar dynamics was traced in the formation of information bubbles in social networks. The psychologically social nature of the individual prompts him to value agreement in his own environment, even to the detriment of rational argumentation. However, the effect of such distortions decreases as the stakes in the discussion increase. Working in Small Teams In the GJP studies cited, the prediction accuracy of individual analysts and expert teams was compared. The latter showed the best results. Groups made up of superforecasters received especially large increases. Thus , collective forms of expertise increase the quality of assessments , first of all , of individually strong specialists . Interaction helps them synthesize large amounts of information and view situations from more perspectives. Teams of 12 participants were formed in GJP. In practice, teams of 2-5 specialists are more often created. Grouping experts into permanent teams .....
(Footnotes)
Janis I. Victims of groupthink : a psychological study of foreign - policy decisions and fiascoes . Boston, Houghton, Mifflin, 1972. Flaxman S. , Goel S. , Rao J.M. Filter bubbles , echo chambers , and online news consumption // Public opinion quarterly . 2016 Vol. 80. No. S1. P. 298-320. Tetlock P.E. , Gardner D. Superforecasting : The art and science of prediction . N.Y.: Random House, 2016.

👆....is just one of the forms of collective work. The brainstorming technique used to build scenarios for the development of the situation 5 has also received recognition. Its feature is the ban on criticizing the proposals of other participants at an early stage of discussion. Brainstorming engages the tendency of the mind to generate ideas under the influence of external stimulation. Opposite functions are performed by the methodology referred to in foreign practice as " red team analysis " ( Red Team Analysis ). It is used at the final stage of the preparation of forward - looking reports , when outside experts are invited for an independent assessment , who did not participate in writing them . Bringing a fresh perspective helps to identify inconsistencies in logic, gaps in argumentation, and unreflected assumptions at the heart of the conclusions drawn, enhancing the quality of the final product. Domestic developments in the field of situational analysis solve similar problems. They offer a detailed plan for holding meetings, during which expert discussions of issues voiced in advance take place on the basis of a rigidly structured regulation. One of the key requirements for conducting situational analyzes is the variety of profiles of specialists involved. This provides a synthesis of different approaches to the problem, which contributes to the accuracy of forecasts.
.......

On Cass community, led by Divine Cosmic Mind-
great task has been assigned. Cs many years are calling for networking. Because each of us, imo, might bring a grain of sand/piece/truth into the puzzle🙏


FE3DC2FF-72BF-44E8-961E-DFF4060FBA95.jpeg
 
Stalin is a unique historical ‘phenomenon’ which built/made our great country in the last century (from peasants to space and we are still ‘eating/surviving on his heritage’).
I don't think anyone would dispute that. I'd just add my view that he made the country "Great" in more ways than one, not all of them virtuous.
I understand why most forumites, living mostly in western countries, evaluate him as tyrant. Sorry for such analogy, but you were ‘breastfed’ with that idea/myth/propaganda.
I wasn't. I barely learned anything about Stalin or communism growing up. Hitler was the big evil. Stalin was the guy who fought on our side in WWII.
He was not angel, of course (by the way as Caesar - also killed people/enemies. Righteous anger called?).
Caesar killed foreigners, and was uncommonly merciful during civil war. Stalin had more in common with Sulla or Augustus in this regard. (Every empire in recorded history fought and killed foreigners, so I don't take that in itself as diagnostic of anything other than them being part of an empire - it is a human universal.)
He made an impossible, Russia not only defeated fascism,
Was that Stalin? Or was that mostly the ordinary Soviet citizens who actually did the fighting and dying?
Stemming from this, could most of the rubbish/lies/bloodthirsty myths about him by the western schwabs and even our oligarchs elite - be the reason/motivation for this? Please answer for yourself.
What specifically do you mean by the "rubbish" and "lies"?

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts after reading this article, which focuses on the traditionalist and revisionist narratives surrounding the Great Terror:

As absolute majority of russians. Paradox, don’t you think?
Not really.
Imagine, descendants of people whom as propaganda says were killed by Stalin by tens of millions - are grateful to him till today? (Stockholm’s syndrom on country scale maybe?!).
Yeah, I think that's as good a hypothesis as any.
For instance, have you heard of Pol Pot of Cambodia, real psycho butcher, being adored? Hmm..
Even our youth despite of destroyed (by western manuals and still not cancelled) modern education system with Stalin being slandered - started digging and came to a positive evaluation 🤔
I hesitate to bring it up again, but... there is no shortage of positive reevaluations of Hitler despite decades of "slander" and information to the contrary, or even Pol Pot (see previous link). Personally, I'm not surprised by either phenomenon.
 
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How come more 80+ percent of Russian people adore Stalin...why is that?
That's a heavily black-and-white assessment. Yes, many Russian people (probably the majority, at least among the adult population) view Stalin's era as the period of growth and development, and also strict discipline and order. When people see corruption, they often say "It's a pity there's no Stalin now".

It is understood though, when people say so they don't mean that they would literally prefer to live under Stalin. They are just frustrated about a certain situation and admit that during Stalin's era there was much less corruption due to extraordinarily tough measures.

One could argue that if Stalin's regime wasn't so strict to the extreme, our country would not be able to survive and win the war. Well, history does not tolerate subjunctive mood, but probably yes, it was "a necessary evil" back then.

This, however, does not mean that today Russians would really prefer to live under Stalin's order. In today's situation, if you put aside emotions and look at the facts, it is not a foreign country that has invaded Russia, rather it is Russia who has had enough of nonsense and decided to finally reintegrate it's historic territories, and for a good reason. Do you see the difference? And after a year of intense fighting, Russia didn't even have to put the country on the war footing yet. After countless sanctions, what we're seeing is Western financial institutions falling, not Russian. There is simply no need for a Stalin-style regime in today's Russia.

That said, it is true that as a strong and effective leader, Stalin was demonized in the West just like Putin is demonized today. Stalin was not a bloodthirsty baby-eater who deliberately brought famine onto his own population as it is insinuated today. And he was not a saint either. He was a complex figure and his role in Russian history was also complex and nuanced.
 
Antony I"m not saying your vision is narrow per say but your vision of Russian history (the period of Stalin) is narrow as is the vision of the historian you mention and quote.

Until all the sealed records are open to the public and educated and intelligent men from various walks of life, i.e.historians, economists (not the type that pass for economists today) etc can decipher the whys and wherefores of what really happened before during and after can a reasonable retelling of the past be done devoid of emotion and personal viewpoints.

History is cause and effect so all aspects must be taken into account. Only then will the real Stalin show himself with vices and virtues on full display.
 
Antony I"m not saying your vision is narrow per say but your vision of Russian history (the period of Stalin) is narrow as is the vision of the historian you mention and quote.

Until all the sealed records are open to the public and educated and intelligent men from various walks of life, i.e.historians, economists (not the type that pass for economists today) etc can decipher the whys and wherefores of what really happened before during and after can a reasonable retelling of the past be done devoid of emotion and personal viewpoints.

History is cause and effect so all aspects must be taken into account. Only then will the real Stalin show himself with vices and virtues on full display.
Tuatha de Danaan,
Just a short remark. There are a lot of good patriotic historians/economists/politilogists, like Delyagin, Khazin, Katasonov, by the way the one’s the group used to quote and post-they all analyzed and digged the topic. All came to a conclusion of Stalin’s achievements in most of the spheres, from economic, ideology (commune over western individualism), to education, social spheres etc etc. - comparing to capitalist 30+years rule, when we don’t even have our nails. (C) Matvienko

There is a good meme on the topic:
7DB7CA0A-5573-423D-AAAD-BD01920A22F2.png
Dad, what is the CPSU?
There was such a brutal totalitarian party. Forced people to build cities, factories, spaceships, kindergartens, schools, hospitals, stadiums, pioneer homes.
Forced millions of people into free housing.
But, fortunately, these horrors are already in the past!

All stats on our modern ‘glorious’ achievements-are open on the net (how much hospitals, schools, factories etc ceased to exist).
 
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Tuatha de Danaan,
Just a short remark. There are a lot of good patriotic historians/economists/politilogists, like Delyagin, Khazin, Katasonov, by the way the one’s the group used to quote and post-they all analyzed and digged the topic. All came to a conclusion of Stalin’s achievements in most of the spheres, from economic, ideology (commune over western individualism), to education, social spheres etc etc. - comparing to capitalist 30+years rule, when we don’t even have our nails. (C) Matvienko
Again, no one really disputes this (at least on the economic/industrial front, and the technical side of eduction - ideology and social spheres are debatable). I'm just curious as to why you think one can't accept this, and also accept that Stalin was a pathocrat.

What are your thoughts on the "German economic miracle"?
There is a good meme on the topic:
Dad, what is the CPSU?
There was such a brutal totalitarian party. Forced people to build cities, factories, spaceships, kindergartens, schools, hospitals, stadiums, pioneer homes.
Forced millions of people into free housing.
But, fortunately, these horrors are already in the past!
Yes, it's a cute meme, but it is just that: a meme. Do you dispute that the CPSU was a "brutal totalitarian party"? Do you think that such a party cannot also "force" people to build things and put them into free housing?
 
All came to a conclusion of Stalin’s achievements in most of the spheres, from economic, ideology (commune over western individualism), to education, social spheres etc etc. - comparing to capitalist 30+years rule, when we don’t even have our nails. (C) Matvienko

I don't think anyone here denied Stalin's achievements. That's not the point. The point is whether what Fursov and others like him say is helpful and educative (in the best sense of the word). Does it unite the Russian nation or does it divide it? Fursov's one-sided image of Stalin, ignoring other aspects and nuances, in no way can inform and/or unite people. In my opinion, he mostly appeals to somewhat naïve and undereducated people who need a simple view, and an authority behind it, which they can use to argue with those who emphasise Stalin's wrongdoings. No room for common understanding: either black or white, with me or against. I don't mean blaming you for your interest, this very thread is evidence of me been doing the same. It's OK to explore "other theories and views", but we also need to know when to move on.

That said, it is true that as a strong and effective leader, Stalin was demonized in the West just like Putin is demonized today. Stalin was not a bloodthirsty baby-eater who deliberately brought famine onto his own population as it is insinuated today. And he was not a saint either. He was a complex figure and his role in Russian history was also complex and nuanced.

Well said. Stalin saved the nation from Lenin and Trotsky with their drive to erase Russian history, Russian tradition, Russian religion and traditional values. He managed to develop the country's industry in record time. Could someone else, less brutal, have done the same? We cannot know it and never will. He was a brutal dictator yet the best historians still dispute the numbers of victims of his regime; latest research seems to point to much smaller numbers than claimed originally and most agree with it. Still, he was responsible for death of millions of his own. He also made some big and costly mistakes, mostly due to his paranoid nature. BUT he was the leader of the state when Russia (USSR at that time) achieved the greatest victory in her history. How could anyone repudiate him without causing harm to the nation and its national pride? So the situation is complex and nuanced, as Siberia pointed out. It's also worth noting that when it comes to Russian top officials, they don't criticise Stalin publicly, but neither they allow any overt worship. No monuments, commemoration, etc.; they offer not controversial Zhukov for safe public worship instead and just let people's sentiments live their own life, so to say.

You see, Antony, what is great about Putin and his team IMO, is that they care about the country, the state, and the nation, they really do. Each nation needs its continuous history, myths and heroes. In some countries of former Eastern block there was de-communisation process imposed on the nation with demonizing and getting rid of former politicians, denying achievements of that time, and basically painting it all black, rejecting altogether despite many citizens' good memories and sentiments. That's not a state-building approach, it causes fragmentation and divisions. Russia (Kremlin) has been doing something else: in their historical politics, they seek to include all traditions and all periods as Russian heritage: the Tsars; the revolution with its both sides: Denikin and the Whites, and Bolsheviks; even the dissolution of the USSR. It's all Russia, there is continuity. And that's something beautiful even though tricky and difficult at times. You should appreciate it. There will always be many looking for holes in the fabric.
 
Approaching Infinity, Possibility of Being and Siberia,

In order to avoid going in circles ‘repeating’ my old thread, where we actively exchanged on the topic, will try to make concise reply (Spoiler-turned out not so🙆).

Germany’s miracle-totally owed to Marshall’s plan. US poured huge amounts of money-to create a developed anti-soviet buffer. (According to geopolitics basics-if germany would ever join with Russia-anglosaks would be thrown out of Eurasia continent). In old thread (Role of Russia) i gave a reference to the Chancellor’s act, which gave away all german’s sovereignty to Washington till 2049.

One quote from another part of the globe (notice at what year started the regress - and still that ‘cosmic’ leap forward gave an opportunity despite stupidity and treason to withstand till 91).
"In 1939, you Russians were smart, and we Japanese were fools. In 1949, you became even smarter, and we were still fools. And in 1955, we got smarter, and you turned into five-year-old children. Our entire economic system is almost completely copied from yours, with the only difference that we have capitalism, private commodity producers, and we have never achieved more than 15% growth, while you — with public ownership of the means of production — have reached 30% or more. Your Stalinist slogans hang in all our firms."
Hiroshi Teramachi, Japanese billionaire

I have not yet finished ponerology book, but i have not seen name of Stalin personally there.
‘Among the categories that Lobachevsky describes is pathological conceit, in which a person suppresses everything of a self-critical nature. Lobachevsky associates this with deformities or brain damage, as a sign of prefrontal characteropathy. He attributed this property to Lenin. As we will see, this condition also applies to Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Karl Marx, Mao Zedong, Leon Trotsky and others’.

Another conceptual difference-between then and now-an approach to personal aims. Stalin, as i wrote long time ago, did not strive for money, villas, yachts etc. As Fursov also rightly mentioned - the elite was not allowed to steal/become Consumerism oriented (that was one of the main reasons - why traitors ‘sold’ Soviet project in the end). He left nothing for himself/family. Today we have plumping solid list of compradors liberal class of officials and oligarchs -a totally corrupted nature of the system. But also there is a colossal difference in people's perception of what was done for the masses then and what is left from continuing ‘optimization’ in all spheres-so that people are now wandering (after that thought to be ‘funny’ EU sanction imposed) where to buy toilets🤦. There is a huge difference between a picture on TV and how people are coping to live ‘decently’. Two parallel realities basically.

Possibility of Being, good point about uniting nation. Socialism had this purpose, building community, common aim - is higher than individual (sto vs Sts stance?) -and that drive gave the country as a whole - will to build a better future (by the way, western now being eliminated by Schwabs wealth-fare state was only created as opposed to Soviet Russia, which was winning economic, social, technological etc race). Now, neofeodalism/predatory capitalism, - without any spirit-lifting idea whatsoever-ship without point of destination.

As it was mentioned in sociological study above, there is a position, group agrees that A is A. But as the time passes - constant actualization of new info is a must (for instance just saw in my old thread, Siberia was reinforced concrete sure in 2015 that nobody should and would ever change constitution). Or take a pension reforms like in France now and here a bit earlier-under the directive of IMF.
Retrospectively you may check what important points were declared and what happened in the end. The result of the forecast could have changed. A - turned out B for instance, meaning that initial data was biased.
Another example, SMO. Forumites started thread. Please compare what was declared in the beginning (easy walk with great aims) and how it terribly ‘evolved’, so that no light is yet visible in the end of the ‘tunnel’.

The point i am trying to make, how one forumite said - not challenging the beliefs may lead astray in the end. I have a faith in Lighthouse, its mission, healthy curiosity and a strive for truth🙏
 
Germany’s miracle-totally owed to Marshall’s plan. US poured huge amounts of money-to create a developed anti-soviet buffer. (According to geopolitics basics-if germany would ever join with Russia-anglosaks would be thrown out of Eurasia continent). In old thread (Role of Russia) i gave a reference to the Chancellor’s act, which gave away all german’s sovereignty to Washington till 2049.
Oops, my bad. I had in mind the previous one:
 
Oops, my bad. I had in mind the previous one:
Jews and the Creation of the Third Reich

Usually, when they talk about the reasons for Adolf Hitler's coming to power, they recall his outstanding oratorical gift, charisma, political will and intuition, the difficult economic situation in Germany after the defeat in World War I, the resentment of the Germans for the shameful conditions of the Versailles Peace, but in reality these are only secondary prerequisites that contributed to his coming to power. the top of the political Olympus.

Without regular serious funding of his movement, paying for a number of expensive events that made the German National Socialist Workers' Party (in the German transcription of the NSDAP) popular, the Nazis would never have reached the heights of power, remaining common among dozens of similar movements of local significance. For those who have seriously researched and are investigating the phenomenon of National Socialism and the Fuhrer, this is a fact.

The main sponsors of Hitler and his party were the financiers of Great Britain and the United States. From the very beginning, Hitler was a "project". The energetic Fuhrer was a tool for uniting Europe against the Soviet Union, other important tasks were also solved, so the "New World Order" was tested on the ground, which was planned to spread throughout the planet. Hitler was also sponsored by the German financial and industrial circles associated with the world Financial International. Among Hitler's sponsors was Fritz Thyssen (the eldest son of industrialist August Thyssen), he had provided significant material support to the Nazis since 1923, and publicly supported Hitler in 1930. In 1932, he was part of a group of financiers, industrialists and landowners who demanded that Reich President Paul von Hindenburg appoint Hitler as Reich Chancellor. Thyssen was a supporter of the restoration of the estate state - in May 1933, with the support of Hitler, he established the Institute of Estates in Dusseldorf. Thyssen planned to bring the scientific base under the ideology of the estate state. Thyssen was a supporter of the war with the USSR, but protested against the war with Western countries and opposed the persecution of Jews. As a result, a break in relations with Hitler followed. On September 2, 1939, Thyssen left with his wife, daughter and son-in-law for Switzerland. In 1940, in France, he wrote the book "I financed Hitler", after the occupation of the French state, he was arrested and ended up in a concentration camp, where he stayed until the end of the war.

Financial assistance to the Nazis was provided by the German industrialist and financial magnate Gustav Krupp. Among the bankers, money for Hitler was collected by the president of the Reichsbank and Adolf Hitler's confidant for relations with his political and financial sponsors in Western countries, Hjalmar Schacht. This talented organizer headed the private National Bank of Germany since 1916, then became its co-owner. From December 1923 - Head of the Reichsbank (he led until March 1930, and then in 1933-1939). He had close ties with the American J.P. Morgan Corporation. It was he who, since 1933, carried out the economic mobilization of Germany, preparing it for war.

The reasons that forced the German financial and industrial elite to help Hitler and his party were very different. Some wanted to create a powerful strike force against the internal "communist threat" and the labor movement. They were also afraid of an external danger – the "Bolshevik threat." Others were reinsured in case Hitler came to power. Still others worked in the same group with the world financial international. And everyone benefited from military mobilization and war – orders poured in like a cornucopia.

After the defeat of the Third Reich in the war and to this day in the mass consciousness of people, Jewry is a victim of Nazism. Moreover, the tragedy of the Jews was turned into a kind of brand, profiting from it, receiving financial and political dividends. Although many more Slavs died in this massacre – more than 30 million (including Poles, Serbs, etc.). In reality, Jews are different from Jews, some were destroyed, persecuted, and other Jews themselves financed Hitler. The "world community" prefers to keep silent about the contribution of influential Jews of that time to the formation of the Third Reich, the growth of Hitler's influence. And people who raise this issue are immediately accused of revisionism, fascism, anti-Semitism, etc. Jews and Hitler are one of the most closed topics in the world media. Although it is no secret that the Fuhrer and the NSDAP were sponsored by such influential Jewish industrialists as Reynold Gesner and Fritz Mandel. Hitler was greatly assisted by the famous Warburg banking dynasty and personally by Max Warburg (director of the Hamburg bank "M.M. Warburg & Co.").

Among other Jewish bankers who spared no money for the NSDAP, it is necessary to single out Berliners Oskar Wasserman (one of the leaders of Deutsche Bank) and Hans Privin. A number of researchers are sure that the Rothschilds participated in the financing of Nazism, they needed Hitler to implement the project of creating a Jewish state in Palestine. The persecution of Jews in Europe forced them to seek a new homeland, and the Zionists (supporters of the unification and revival of the Jewish people in their historical homeland) helped in organizing the creation of settlements in the Palestinian territories. In addition, the problem of assimilation of Jews in Europe was being solved, persecution forced them to remember their origin, unite, and the mobilization of Jewish identity took place.

Interestingly, in fact, Hitler and his party were financed and prepared the ground for the Nazi seizure of power in Germany by the same forces that prepared the revolutions of 1905, 1917 in Russia, sponsored the Bolshevik Party, the Socialist Revolutionaries, the Mensheviks, and worked closely with all Russian revolutionary forces. This is the so-called "financial international", the owners of the banks of the USA, Britain, France and other Western countries, the American Federal Reserve System.

In addition, it should be noted that the top leadership of the Third Reich itself largely consisted of Jews or people with Jewish roots. These facts are stated in the work of Dietrich Bronder "Before Hitler came", based on 288 sources (he was the general secretary of the association of non-religious communities in Germany), Henek Cardel "Adolf Hitler is the founder of Israel" (during the war he was a lieutenant colonel and knight of the Iron Cross). A lot of facts about Jews in the Third Reich can be found in the works of Willy Frischauer "Himmler", William Stevenson "The Bormann Brotherhood", John Donovan "Eichmann", Charles Whiting "Canaris", etc. Adolf Hitler himself had Jewish roots, such famous Nazis as Heydrich (on his father Suss), Frank, Rosenberg. One of the authors of the plan "On the final solution of the Jewish question" Eichmann was a Jew. The extermination of Poles and Jews on Polish territory was led by the Jew Hans Michael Frank, he was the Governor-General of Poland in 1939-1945. Ignaz Trebich-Lincoln, one of the most famous adventurers of the 20th century, an ardent supporter of Hitler and his ideas, was born into a family of Hungarian Jews.

The Jew was the editor-in-chief of the anti-Semitic and anti-Communist newspaper "Sturmovik", the ideologist of racism and an ardent anti-Semite Julius Streicher (Abram Goldberg). He was executed in 1946 by the Nuremberg Tribunal for anti-Semitism and calls for genocide. Reich Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels and his wife Magda Behrend-Friedlander had Semitic roots. Rudolf Hess, the Minister of Labor Robert Ley, had a Semitic origin. There is an opinion that the chief of the Abwehr Canaris came from Greek Jews.

Before the war, up to half a million Jews lived in Germany, up to 300 thousand of them left freely. Those who did not leave partially suffered, but the Jews of Poland and the USSR suffered the greatest damage, they were significantly assimilated and they were "put under the knife" as having lost their Jewish identity. Many Jews fought in the Wehrmacht, so only about 10 thousand people were captured by the Soviet.

Personally, thanks to Hitler, a category of more than 150 "honorary Aryans" appeared, which included mainly large Jewish industrialists. They carried out personal orders of the leader to sponsor certain political events. The Nazis divided Jews into the rich and everyone else, there were benefits for the rich.

Thus, we see that through the efforts of the Western media, official historians, politicians, many interesting pages were cut out of the history of the Second World War and its prehistory. Jews financed the creation of the Third Reich, Hitler personally, were in the leadership of Germany, participated in the "solution" of the Jewish question, the destruction of their fellow tribesmen, fought as part of the German armed forces. And after the collapse of the Reich, the German people were blamed for the genocide of the Jewish people and forced to pay a contribution. Until now, Germany and the Germans are considered the main culprits of inciting the Second World War, although the organizers of this massacre have remained unpunished.

The USSR and its political leadership like to accuse of anti-Semitism, but Sayko in the book "Crossroads on the way to Israel" and Weinstock in the work "Zionism against Israel" give very interesting data. Of the Jews who were persecuted by the Nazis and found salvation abroad in the period from 1935 to 1943, 75% found refuge in the totalitarian Soviet Union. England sheltered about 2% (67 thousand people), the United States – less than 7% (about 182 thousand people), 8.5% of refugees left for Palestine.

 
I would like to add, but i suppose you know that already. Hitler was a Rotschield’s bastard. As Lavrov hinted a year-two ago. After which ‘our’ zionist community reacted negatively straight away (as an aide to Patrushev-wrote an article, claiming khasids as a sect). Took a couple of days to pitifully ‘regret’ from Patrushev and politefully 2-3 months to fire his aide)...
 
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Something surprises me (or makes me uncomfortable), which I cannot determine exactly, and which has nothing to do with the subject of historical discussion here but rather with its course.
I am addressing the elders people here.
I sense underneath a very constructed discourse, a kind of determination to "justify" a "vision" from large, very intellectual and of course very interesting historical flatnesses. To be comfortable in our history (?)
My question to the 'elders': is there something akin to 'selection/substitution' going on in this attempt at justification?
I've had a look at Luks' starting thread in the meantime, and it looks like it too, but on a strictly emotional and internal level: To walk away so as not to risk a challenge to my humanity (?)
I am aware that this is crude, but for my own knowledge I would like to know what it is and how far these speeches are from this interpretation.
Thank you and my apologies for this diversion!

Quelque chose me surprend (ou me met mal à l'aise), que je ne peux pas déterminer exactement, et qui n'a rien à voir avec le sujet de la discussion historique ici, mais plutôt avec son déroulement.
Je m'adresse ici aux anciens.
Je ressens un discours très construit, une sorte de détermination à "justifier" une "vision" à partir de grandes platitudes historiques, très intellectuelles et, bien sûr, très intéressantes. Pour être à l'aise dans notre histoire ( ?)
Ma question aux " anciens " : est-ce qu'il y a quelque chose de l'ordre de la " sélection/substitution " dans cette tentative de justification ?
J'ai jeté un coup d'œil au fil de départ de Luks entre-temps, et cela y ressemble aussi, mais à un niveau strictement émotionnel et interne : S'éloigner pour ne pas risquer une remise en cause de mon humanité ( ?)
Je suis conscient que c'est grossier, mais pour ma propre connaissance, j'aimerais savoir ce que c'est et dans quelle mesure ces discours s'éloignent de cette interprétation.
Merci et toutes mes excuses pour cette diversion !
Traduit avec www.DeepL.com/Translator (version gratuite)
Traduit avec www.DeepL.com/Translator (version gratuite)
 
I sense underneath a very constructed discourse, a kind of determination to "justify" a "vision" from large, very intellectual and of course very interesting historical flatnesses. To be comfortable in our history (?)
My question to the 'elders': is there something akin to 'selection/substitution' going on in this attempt at justification?
Could you be a bit more specific?
 
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