Historical Events Database - Coordination

[Mikey]

Data, I just submitted Event 133 to you for review -- I'll be waiting for your feedback to see what needs to be improved.

I edited both the Yeomans (1991) and Parkenier, Xu & Jiang (2008) sources -- I notice for the latter, that the system recreates it as "Xu,, David W. Pankenier, Zhentao & Jiang, Yaotiao" instead of the expected "Pankenier, David W., Zhentao Xu & Yaotiao Jiang". I thought maybe it was because the original source listed the authors as "David W. Pankenier, Zhentao Xu, and Yaotiao Jiang", and that the comma before the "and" messed it up. I'm locked out for now while you review, so just wanted to make a note of it.

Yeah, multiple authors must be concatenated with the keyword " and ". See User Manual and the Feedback I've created. I've failed the Event so that you can fix it.

Something I can't find out without the actual book or the PDF: In the "Derived from" field Ho (2), what does 2 mean? Is that a year number?

Maybe you can digitize your hardcopy Sources as PDF and upload it to the HED too? (Only if's not more than a reasonable amount of work.)

 

[Mikey]

ISBN change over times but for one book / edition they should be unique.

They should be unique in theory, but in practice they are unfortunately not. E.g. an identical reprint may have a different ISBN from the original, just because the cover design has changed. For this reason, I'd say we ignore ISBN's altogether. A Source in the HED-sense is just a unique combination of Author, Publisher, Translator and Volume Number.

I took the data for the source from the older, original book from 1960 and mentioned the "Reprinted in 1981 by Greenwood Press" into the edition field. Together with the Amazon URL the book should be identifiable.

Put the "reprinted" remark in the Notes field. If it's truly a re-print, it's identical with the 1960 publication.

For Fredegar's text I have got only the book. I will try to scan and upload it as pdf asap. Hopefully this is OK because of the copyright.

Copyright is okay because the HED is not publicly accessible. It's a research project.

There is an issue with some of the Fredegar entries. Originally zadig included them with his translations from a French book. Later on I edited them with Wallace-Hadrill's translations. I often left zadigs tranlations.

Following events have only my later additions: ID 660, 578
Following have zadigs and my quotes: ID 587, 583, 582

zadigs entries should be connected with a "source" "Histoire des Francs – Grégoire de Tours et Frédégaire". Should I make new entries for my additions or could you assign the entries to me?

Ok, thanks for the heads-up. All of these mentioned Events are owned by Zadig, and he will have to create proper Sources for it (two Sources: the French publication and the English publication). If he has translated excerpts himself, he should put the French publication as the Source and add a footnote to each excerpt, saying: "Translated into English by the Editor".

 

[Mikey]

Thanks. I thought I uploaded PDFs? It was on Source page in "PDF urls" field, or were you referring to the event page itself?

No, you can drag a PDF from your computer into the "Drop files here" box on the Sources#Edit page. But if you do that, also input the URL where you got the PDF from.

I just fixed the formatting and set it back to "reviewing". :)

Thanks, it has successfully passed the review!

 

[Mikey]

Data, I dived into the project again after once more thoroughly studying your manual. I decided to first do proper research into the sources available, to complete now what I already had found out about a year ago and I immediately ran into big trouble again.

Yeah, I found out also that ancient sources are a BIG MESS! :/ That was the motivation for me to make the Source uploads feature in the HED. It will allow us to create at least a little order in that chaos.

The works of Flavius Josephus are mentioned on the Loebolus list but they are not complete.

Yes, I also found out that the Loebolus download list is not complete. Digitizing books and OCR'ing them is a lot of work, and it's incomplete. If it helps you or others anyhow, here are the currently available hardcopy books by Harvard University Press (most of them are the Loeb Classical Edition):

Cicero http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=1174
Livy http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3669
Polybius http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3762
Ammianus Marcellinus http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3468
Appian http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3481
Aristoteles http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3486
Bede http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3528
Caesar http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3534
Demosthenes http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3586
Dio Cassius http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3592
Diodorus Siculus http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3597
Diogenes Laertius http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3603
Eusebius http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3608
Florus http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3610
Frontinus http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3611
Gellius http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3618
Josephus http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3657
Libanius http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3667
Manilius http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3690
Pausanias http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3720
Pindar http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3736
Pliny the Elder http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3743
Pliny the Younger http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3745
Plutarch http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3749
Seneca http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3725
Silicus Italicus http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3795
Strabo http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3800
Suetonius http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3807
Tacitus http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3808
Thucydides http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3829
Valerius Maximus http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=4916
Velleius Paterculus http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3833
Xenophon http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=1325
Accius http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3780
Aelian http://www.hup.harvard.edu/results-list.php?author=3332

Missing are book 15-20 from Antiquities of the Jews (no PDF's available) which probably contain the translations NOT done by St. John Thackeray but by his assistant successors. Furthermore, the edition they found and used is from 1926 which is bi-lingual Greek-English and the PDF-file of the copy I inspected for try-out is not in the best of shape, but fairly readable.

For several reasons I won't go into now, this translation should be preferred above the one William Whiston made much earlier. Nevertheless, I didn't use it because of its rare availability. There are quite some differences between those two translations, although most of them are minor IMO.

The William Whiston translation that I did use is available in many versions and formats: as a rather obscure (edition wise) PDF-file from several 'Christian' websites (I've got one of those), in several Kindle editions (I've got one of those as well, but not the most recent), on several university websites (two of which I regularly consulted) and as a printed book in many editions (new and used alike; I have none of those).

I also did a search on the Archive website and got plenty results -- too much to handle in one evening. See for yourself here.

Please advise about the proper course of action.

Note: All quotes filed by me in the database are from the Kindle edition of 2010, which is already mentioned in the Source but only for Antiquities of the Jews, astonishingly; not for Wars of the Jews and the minor works.

I struggled with these questions too, as I was going over many entries in the last 2 months and attempting to redesign the HED accordingly. With this mess in ancient sources and numerous combinations of this mess on top of that, there doesn't seem to be an easy way out. The only pleasing solution I found was to make the concept of a Source in the HED both simple and precise: A Source in the HED-sense is a unique combination of Author, Publisher, Translator and Volume Number. The 'cost' of this approach is that all used combinations must be entered into the HED as separate Sources. So, if we are citing from 10 different editions/translations of the same text, we have to create 10 separate Sources, and attach them to Texts accordingly.

If in Josephus' case the situation is so bad (I haven't reviewed this myself) that even texts from the same translator differ by publisher or even publication year, we simply have to create more Sources to reflect that. If you have a 'dubious' PDF or web page, and you want to quote from it, then so be it; just enter the Source details as good as you can. The responsibility of accuracy of ancient texts, translations and editions is not on us -- we are simply reporting what's out there, but we have to do that accurately.

I'm not sure if I could help you with this post, but the bottom line is: Don't care much about the complexity of the available sources, simply enter them as they are.

 

[Mikey]

The annual subscription to the Loeb Classical Online Library http://www.loebclassics.com/ is EUR 150,-. It seems to have all the books. If we need access, we could think about getting it. For nonprofit institutions, the first 60 days are free.

 

[Zadius Sky]

Thanks. I thought I uploaded PDFs? It was on Source page in "PDF urls" field, or were you referring to the event page itself?

No, you can drag a PDF from your computer into the "Drop files here" box on the Sources#Edit page. But if you do that, also input the URL where you got the PDF from.

Ah, thanks. I'm getting the hang of it. :)

 

[Zadig]

zadigs entries should be connected with a "source" "Histoire des Francs – Grégoire de Tours et Frédégaire". Should I make new entries for my additions or could you assign the entries to me?

You can create new entries, I will delete mine.

 

[Laura]

The annual subscription to the Loeb Classical Online Library http://www.loebclassics.com/ is EUR 150,-. It seems to have all the books. If we need access, we could think about getting it. For nonprofit institutions, the first 60 days are free.

Approaching Infinity can sign us up and pay from NC and we can make the access available to those working on the project.

 

[Dirgni]

zadigs entries should be connected with a "source" "Histoire des Francs – Grégoire de Tours et Frédégaire". Should I make new entries for my additions or could you assign the entries to me?

You can create new entries, I will delete mine.

Please keep them until I created new ones. Thank you!

 

[Dirgni]

Event with ID 1200 has 2 texts. Both are from the same source. Text #1538 is OK. But Text #1539 is sort of additional text, which should not make into publication but may be of interest as it provides additional information mostly about the sources used by Kronk. The issue is with all Kronk entries I checked and all I included. Could you please advise? Thanks.

Text #1538:

The Chinese text *Wéi shu* (572) is the sole source for this object. It says a **"sparkling star" was seen in the northeast** on 507 August 15. The object was probably in the morning sky, implying a probable UT of August 14.8.

Text #1539:

Full moon: August 8
sources: Wéi shu (572), p. 164; A. G. Pingré (1783), p. 315;1-10 Peng Yoke (1962), p. 164.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

So should I set any of these events to the reviewing state, if I will just continue to update them in the future? Or would it be a good idea to focus on periods of Caesar's life in sequence, e.g., fully completing his early years, then moving on to his political career, then Gallic wars period, civil wars, and final years? That way, because the project is so big, we might be able to publish a "volume 1" that just focuses on Caesar's early years, then publish further volumes as the work gets completed.

I would go with focussing by time periods, e.g. his early life first, and then packing as much secondary and tertiary information as possible. The project we've undertaken is so big that we may get nowhere if we spread ourselves too thin. So yes, let's set as our aim to get a "Volume 1" ready -- the same applies for the "Chronicle of the Fall".

You don't have to get any Event into Reviewing for now if you expect to add more information later. But you can ask me to have a look at the entries. I can give you feedback nevertheless.

Awesome. I'll get to it. But since I'm almost finished inputting Plutarch's bio, I'll finish that up first, then work on completing "Caesar: The formative years". ;)

 

[Mikey]

Event with ID 1200 has 2 texts. Both are from the same source. Text #1538 is OK. But Text #1539 is sort of additional text, which should not make into publication but may be of interest as it provides additional information mostly about the sources used by Kronk. The issue is with all Kronk entries I checked and all I included. Could you please advise? Thanks.

I've added a check box for each text: "Include in Publication". Simply uncheck it, and it will be ignored for Reviews and for the Publication.

Awesome. I'll get to it. But since I'm almost finished inputting Plutarch's bio, I'll finish that up first, then work on completing "Caesar: The formative years". ;)

Perfect. This will be very informative! ;D

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Awesome. I'll get to it. But since I'm almost finished inputting Plutarch's bio, I'll finish that up first, then work on completing "Caesar: The formative years". ;)

Perfect. This will be very informative! ;D

Can you re-assign E#3085 from jason to me?

 

[Palinurus]

Data, I have only managed today to edit two Sources tabs for Wars of the Jews and Antiquities of the Jews in the Kindle Edition format and made those as complete as possible with the information I currently have at my disposal.

Please check them thoroughly to ascertain that this is exactly what we need in such cases. It was a rather tedious affair which took a whole evening to complete.

I didn't upload any PDF-files yet although I have one (in an alternative edition) but specified the URL from where I got that one since it is also available in HTML-format for reading on-line, apart from a download.

I also included the web addresses (URLs) of the two on-line versions of both which I regularly consulted while doing my reading.

If I understand the procedures correctly, I have to repeat this endeavor for the Loeb Classical Edition as well. That will take a little more effort so please be patient.

One remark of a technical nature: it's rather clumsy that one cannot enter the year of publication directly manually and is obliged to use the inbuilt counter feature. It takes quite some time to get from zero to 2010 -- not to mention cramps while continuously pressing the mouse button without moving the mouse and its pointer away from its target.

Considering the time consuming affair of getting the sources in perfect shape, I don't think that I'll be able to fulfill my promise of submitting at least one entry for reviewing in the current week.

Stay tuned....

 

[shijing]

Yeah, multiple authors must be concatenated with the keyword " and ". See User Manual and the Feedback I've created. I've failed the Event so that you can fix it.

Thanks Data -- I just tried to fix it, but was still locked out. I sent a reply back to you copying the error message that I got.

Something I can't find out without the actual book or the PDF: In the "Derived from" field Ho (2), what does 2 mean? Is that a year number?

Here's what it says at the beginning of the appendix:

At the end of each entry, the relevant sources are provided. Often, these sources can provide additional information on a particular apparition. Commonly used sources, such as Ho Peng Yoke and Alexandre Guy Pingre, have been abbreviated. For example Ho (5) refers to the fifth comet mentioned in Ho Peng Yoke's 1962 catalog and P500 refers to page 500 in Pingre's work of 1783-84. Primary sources are listed after each cometary apparition; other sources are mentioned only if they provide additional information. The following catalog of cometary apparitions is meant to provide a guide to where comprehensive observations were made and what records are extant. For the early apparitions of comet Halley, we have relied on the comprehensive observation summaries given by Stephenson and Yau (1985).

I hope that helps -- do you want me to continue to include those references, or would you prefer them to be left out? If I do include them, is the "derived from" field the best place to put them?

Maybe you can digitize your hardcopy Sources as PDF and upload it to the HED too? (Only if's not more than a reasonable amount of work.)

I can make a point to do that, although I'll have to find a good time to access a scanner at my library since they are quite large. Do you guys already have a copy of Yeomans (1991)? I was under the impression that you did, but if not, the appendix is less than 100 pages. If you'd like the whole book, it's 485 pages.

As for Archaeoastronomy in East Asia, the two primary sections (comets/meteor showers) comprise 440 pages, and the entire book is 754 pages long. It would be quite a job, but I'm willing to try if you think it would be useful to have in digital format.