Historical Events Database - History

[Dirgni]

Re: Historical Events Database

Nice to have feature:
Maybe you could put together the information about filling in columns and put it together (copy - paste into pdf, html page , ...). And then make it accessable from some "help button" in the Historical Events Database form?

Descriptions of the Historical Events Database form:
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,33985.msg474354.html#msg474354
(http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,33985.msg474404.html#msg474404)
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,33985.msg474508.html#msg474508
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,33985.msg474540.html#msg474540
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,33985.msg474557.html#msg474557
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,33985.msg474559.html#msg474559


List of topics / proposals:
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,33985.msg474374.html#msg474374
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,33985.msg474411.html#msg474411

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Re: Historical Events Database

Excellent find AI! Their statistical approach is sound (although I quite do not understand the "calendar year cross-dating"), and if pine trees live up to five thousand years (!), we have a very good source of data there.

I think by calendar year cross-dating, they mean that their tree-ring measurements were cross-dated to establish continuity, and translated from YBP (years before present) to our AD/BC calendar. (_http://tree.ltrr.arizona.edu/lorim/basic.html)

More info:

ammonium spikes in ice-core data:
539 AD (Justinian plague)
1014 AD (Anglo-Saxon Chronicle "heap of cloud" and "sea flood" references)
1490 AD
1908 AD (Tunguska)
(http://www.scribd.com/doc/27784008/The-case-for-signi%EF%AC%81cant-numbers-of-extraterrestrial-impacts-through-the-late-Holocene)

combined ammonium/nitrate signals (there are others in the graphs in the article, but the dates aren't listed):
11,938 BC (YD)
8849 BC (preceded by NaCl signal, suggesting possible ocean impact)
5760 BC
4559 BC (could span up to 4 years)
2720 BC
1142 BC
1427 AD (note discrepancy with previous Baillie paper, where he lists the dual spike as 1490; this is perhaps a different spike...)
1861 AD
1908 AD (Tunguska)
(_http://www.scribd.com/doc/115329118/Mayan-Long-Count-Calendar-matches-ice-record-chemistry-spikes-Mike-Baillie)

Regarding the 1014 event, there's this interesting tidbit (_http://www.sis-group.org.uk/news/case-significant-numbers-extraterrestrial-impacts-through-late-holocene.htm):

The date of the tsunami, falling on the eve of St. Michael’s Day, is also interesting. The legends surrounding the Biblical character of Michael sound very reminiscent of an impact event:

“there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down - that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.” If the “dragon” was a comet and his “angels” were fragments of the comet as it broke up in the atmosphere then the story is a perfect metaphor for an impact event. Yet this passage from the book of Revelation was written over 2,000 years ago, a thousand years BEFORE the impact event of 1014 AD. So why was September 28 already associated with Michael? This suggests that Earth has experienced a previous cosmic impact on September 28 during a previous era which was the basis of the story in Revelation and the reason the date was devoted to Michael, the hero of the impact allegory. Thus could there be a predictable cycle of such impacts? Instead of viewing the ancient writings as prophecies could they be closer to forecasts based on a predictable cycle?

Could that tie into Fomenko's late dating of Revelation at all?

 

[Voyageur]

Re: Historical Events Database

Hmm... putting lat and long data in when it is available or can be found might be useful. Could we have a thing with a drop down menu that we could add to as we go? Or would that be too difficult? Part of the problem is that some cities/locations changed names depending on period or chronicler so we may need some location names that are like "name/name/name".

Yeah, that's the problem... With Google Maps, you can tell is "San Antonio, TX" and it will return a lat/lng. This is what happens for SOTT article locations, although you never actually see the lat/lng. But these location names are all modern ones. So, somehow, we'd have to enter lat/lng + location name, and that would be recorded. Then for future entries, the drop-down list would include all existing locations entered, or you could manually enter a new lat/lng + location name.

Getting the initial lat/lng would be a bit tricky, since it would be a pretty manual process, like so:

1. Look at map in book showing The Great Golden City of Ur
2. Compare to modern Google Map, and estimate location
3. Get lat/lng of estimated location from modern Google map

Not exactly precise...

So, maybe just "Location past" and "Location present" as text names like they are now, but add autocomplete dropdown for faster data entry?

A decent little Lat/Long finder program can be found here _http://www.satsig.net/maps/lat-long-finder.htm

 

[mkrnhr]

Re: Historical Events Database

Thank you AI.
I have both papers printed but I can't find the PDF files (my computer is a mess lol). The raw data I played with give indeed these dates (the peak of 1014 is very strong in the GISP icecore). I constructed a single proxy combining NH4 and NO3. Strong signals are obvious but the value of a crosschecking with historical data will arise from weaker signals (maybe within a few decades). For instance, if after eliminating some false positives we find that there were three events around a certain date (say 1014) where the second is two years after the first and the third five years after the second, and if we find such a progression in historical records, we might conjecture that the historical events in question occurred around 1014 instead of say at another epoch.

It seems to me that tree data are much noisier than icecore onces but they have the advantage of giving accurately the chronology of stong events and to verify if the icecore chronology is well calibrated, especially for old events.

 

[mkrnhr]

Re: Historical Events Database

Addendum: regarding the medieval catastrophes, I remember vaguely that a tsunami in Ireland and a cross in the sky were mentioned in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles. I don't know if it is worth including in the literature to be examined.

 

[Mikey]

Re: Historical Events Database

I just noticed that when I inputted the new author, the "used" drop-down popped up, completely blocking my viewing of that field, which I wouldn't able to input anything. Can you adjust that a bit?

Fixed now. If you want the box to disappear, click on the "Used:" heading.

How about separating the "sources" into "sources" and "references"?

I thought about that but decided to put everything into one table. It was faster to program (time is a valuable resource!), and the autocomplete feature still allows for fast data entry for users and avoidance of duplication. About the DAG graph I don't know how this would work - honestly don't know enough about it.

 

[Eboard10]

Re: Historical Events Database

If it is 1 hour or two per day , I will volunteer, but not sure which one to take though. If this gallery of natural phenomenon is useful ( this will be from main stream sources, hopefully this won't create problem), I can take that.

for now, volunteer list looks like this.

Author	Volunteer
Polybius	Shane
Diodorus of Sicily
Dionysius of Halicarnassus	seeking truth
Livy	Laura
Marcus Velleius Paterculus
Flavius Josephus
Plutarch
Gaius Cornelius Tacitus
Suetonius
Dio Cassius
Herodian
Eusebius of Caesarea
Ammianus Marcellinus
Theodoret
Priscus
Sozomen
Salvian
John Malalas	Laura
Zosimus	Zadius Sky
Procopius
Jordanes
Nennius	Bear
Gregory of Tours	Laura
Bede
Paul the Deacon	Icedesert
Michael the syrian( french)	pierre
ice core data	mkrhr

Although I'm a slow reader, I would still like to contribute to this project. I'm happy to take on Herodian and list events for his History of the Roman Empire.

Also, if any help is needed to collect or sort tree ring and ice core data I'd be more than happy to give a hand.

Btw, it would be good to have the above list as the first post, would make it easier to find as the thread grows bigger.

 

[Palinurus]

Re: Historical Events Database

Would it be more pertinent to read the original language of the documents rather than the translation? I was thinking about a translator could make few errors of what they were reading/translating of the descriptions of certain event(s). I just don't want to miss any detail.

Yes for sure!

If you can read it in the original language it was written in, it will always be more precise. So if you can do that, I think you should read it in the original language...

Yes, but don't rely on google translate.

As has been mentioned, sometimes a famine can occur and be talked about without every using the word. And sometimes a sky phenomenon can occur without every mentioning any keyword.

I actually think that ya'll should READ the sources because when we discuss it and how to sort this from that, you will have a huge load of information already in your head to add to your "weight."

I spent my evening doing some preliminary and preparatory research around the works, the period and the person of Flavius Josephus and made some calculations as close to reality as I could envisage.

I'm a very slow reader and English isn't my native language. Doing my utmost for a prolonged period of time I could probably read and process on average about 50 PDF pages a week, the necessary additional research and the uploading of my results into the database included. With that speed in mind I would need at least seven (7) weeks for The wars of the Jews, about twenty two (22) weeks for Antiquities of the Jews and one to two (1½) weeks for the rest. Amounting to over thirty (30+) weeks for the whole lot.

That's for going through the English translation only. Would I have to hold half an eye on comparing different versions of translation and on the original language texts as well, the processing would become even more slower -- but I hesitate to make an estimate about that, not even a rough one.

I would be willing to make these necessary efforts if they are deemed useful given the time frame for the project as a whole, but I have to say it's quite a commitment and I'm not completely sure I could stay its course from start to finish although I'm certainly determined to try.

Comments please?

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

I think it is probably more useful to just get and use the best English translation available.

After Icedesert's two abortive entries today, I pulled Paul the Deacon off the shelf and began to read. I recognized very quickly the similarities with the "history of the Goths" plus a 300 year gap (surprise, surprise). So far, I haven't found anything datable that would be of interest, but I'll plug through it.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Re: Historical Events Database

I got the scanned PDF version of The Roman Antiquities of Dionysius of Halicarnassensis Translated into English; with Notes and Dissertations by Edward Spelman, Esq. Vol. I (LONDON Printed, and sold by Booksellers of London and Westminster MDCCLVIII) from _archive.org. It is a John Adams Library, In The Custody of the Boston Public Library copy scan. It's 524 pages total (including a black cover and blank pages, etc.)

I'm going to read the Preface shortly. Then I'll read and enter any relevant data as I go along, unless someone thinks there's a better translation of it.

 

[shijing]

Re: Historical Events Database

I was able to find Suetonius's The Twelve Caesars and Plutarch's Lives: Volume One this evening, so I can start on those. I also found Thucydides's History of the Peloponnesian War, but I just took a look at the database and I see that Laura's already working on that one. Palinurus, I have a copy of The Complete Works of Josephus if you need a hand with that at any point. I'm going to stop by the library in the next couple of days to pick up some more.

 

[Eboard10]

Re: Historical Events Database

Project Gutenberg has the translations for the works of some of the authors on the list like Procopius which you can download in Kindle format but no pdf.

This other site has the translations for Eusebius, Sozemus, Theodoret and Jerome (possibly others too) which you can download in pdf for free:

Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Series II
_http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html

 

[Laura]

Re: Historical Events Database

Zach, I separated your column of fire and darkness at noonday into TWO events. As the darkness was a noonday, we can probably assume it was an eclipse and I so designated it. Too bad there isn't more to pin down the date.

I also adjusted the keywords so that if somebody is searching for something, they'll more easily find it. "column of fire, Byzantium" and "eclipse, Byzantium".

The REASON for breaking down reports into separate data points is so that an event that has many factors, which is naturally "heavier" will then plot as heavier when we are looking at a given time/place.

 

[Zadius Sky]

Re: Historical Events Database

Zach, I separated your column of fire and darkness at noonday into TWO events. As the darkness was a noonday, we can probably assume it was an eclipse and I so designated it. Too bad there isn't more to pin down the date.

I think you meant Zadig - I only inputted the date of Zosimus' composition of "New History." I'm still researching the background and getting my head around the period before studying the Greek basic language and then diving into his six books.

 

[Zadig]

Re: Historical Events Database

Zach, I separated your column of fire and darkness at noonday into TWO events. As the darkness was a noonday, we can probably assume it was an eclipse and I so designated it. Too bad there isn't more to pin down the date.

I also adjusted the keywords so that if somebody is searching for something, they'll more easily find it. "column of fire, Byzantium" and "eclipse, Byzantium".

The REASON for breaking down reports into separate data points is so that an event that has many factors, which is naturally "heavier" will then plot as heavier when we are looking at a given time/place.

Ok.

The events of 390 AD reported by Agapius were also reported in China, Korea and in Europe by Philostorgius and Marcellinus. See p. 68: http://books.google.be/books?id=Umxbb68tmZMC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=claudius+II+comet&source=bl&ots=QGR3SL5mYl&sig=dmtUyaVnHqd3kKh2qRuU10SJPS8&hl=fr&sa=X&ei=ryQBU-bdM6Tt0gXWhoDYBg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=claudius%20II%20comet&f=false

The Cometography of Kronk is a great book but quite expensive :

http://www.amazon.com/Cometography-Volume-Ancient-1799-Catalog-Comets/dp/052158504X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1392632770&sr=8-1&keywords=cometography

http://www.abebooks.fr/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=11455772853&searchurl=kn%3Dcometography