How do you work with Social Anxiety?

[webglider]

It definitely does cause a conflict because I didn't even like the people I thought of as jerks. I would ask myself then why did I care and could never really understand why. I now have an easier time caring less, but still there's this part that does care what people think. I wish I could explain it better than that.

One thing that helps me in social situations is that I go into them with the expectation that most people really won't care that much about me enough to either like or dislike me, some people will like me, and some people will dislike me.

I think that that is the way I feel about myself: most of the time I have a neutral feeling about myself as I go about my day, sometimes I'm really happy to be me, sometimes I can't believe what a jerk I am, and sometimes I realize things about myself that fill me with horror and remorse and a desire to change.

I think one of the main reasons for this anxiety is that we do not realy acknowledge the fact that we live in a world of beings who are in various stages of evolution, each of us have different lessons to learn and also each of us have several diferent levels of pathology to heal.
The most difficult thing at least for me is to realy accept the fact that we live in a ponerized world, beings who live in are realy lost in the dark, we do not know what mental health means.
Most people that are near us do not even feel contradiction between what they see and what they are because they "live" in continuous mechanical pathologies.
If we first of all, try to picture this as a real situation, then we can look at ourselves and others not trying to adapt and mold a personality that meets the demands of a dominant pathology and make us feel safe when interacting, but as a constant way to examine our behavior and that of others under the light of knowledge that we gain with effort.

I think ana brings up some really good points. It might really help keep you to really take in how ponorized the world is and how mechanical life has become.

One trap that has been set for us is to worry about what other's think of us. Advertisers use so many different messages: "Be part of the crowd", "Be different from the crowd", "Be rich and snobby", "Be plain folks", "Listen to experts", "Be like such and such celebrity" etc.to make us feel inadequate.

Whatever we are, there's some way that we're not - and we're supposed to feel inadequate and buy a product to make us feel okay.

It's all landmines to blow up any chance of evolution: keep focusing on yourself, worry about what you're told to worry about - are you too fat, too skinny, too loud, too quiet - it's endless.

I think what has helped me most in dealing with all of this is just to accept, as I said before, that some people just won't like me. No matter what I do, how hard I try, how well meaning I am, they'll just never like me, and that's okay. Right now I'd rather be a person that other people respect because I've earned it, because of my actions and being, rather than a person who is just liked for whatever.

That's very freeing somehow for me. It lets me be free to work on myself. My aim is to live a responsible life, do some good in the world, be externally considerate, work on getting rid of my own pathologies, make amends if it's appropriate and if I can with anyone I've hurt, and increase my level of objective knowledge and the level of my being.

If I can do all of that, I don't care what most people think of me. I only give that power to a few: and only after I've checked them out for awhile. If I respect them, then I care. I care a lot.

 

[Oxajil]

Interesting thread, thanks for creating it and all those who posted!

These kind of programs or this way of thinking is quite beneficial to the ''bad guys'' ''out there'', because I think that thinking too much about yourself inhibits you to be yourself and if you can't be yourself, how could you ever help yourself or even others?

Your mind is the predators mind. The predator tells you that it is important how people think about you, on some level I think it is important to take into account of what you're doing and saying, this is where External Consideration comes into place, but it is not a ''good'' thing if you keep on having uncomfortable chaotic thoughts on what you're doing all the time, which makes you feel uncomfortable.

Wouldn't it be better to know what you're doing and saying and being comfortable at the same time?

I think Self-Love is the key here. How much do you love yourself? Did your mother ever told you she loves you? You said :

I never really felt heard.

If I understand that correctly, did you mean that she never really paid attention to who you Really are?
And now, maybe you are trying to find that kind of attention from other people, the kind of attention your mother never gave you, perhaps.
Perhaps you didn't feel that you were ''enough'' for your mom. Perhaps you weren't that what your mother expected you to be. The perfect daughter, defined by her own needs.
And now you maybe try to be the perfect friend, so that you won't go through those small traumas again, traumas which you probably have been ignoring or forgetting most of the time. The same feelings that you were experiencing during those traumas will pop up in certain circumstances, but might not be recognized as what they truly are.
But maybe you can find out now.

Here is something I found on another website:

_http://www.bravenewkitty.com/?p=111

When you grow up in an invalidating environment—that is, one in which you aren’t valued and appreciated, whatever form that may take—it’s likely you struggle to “feel heard.” Furthermore, it’s likely you struggle with it without even knowing what it is. But feeling heard is one of the most important things a person needs to feel safe, nurtured, respected, and loved. It’s the very cornerstone of connection and the basis of all meaningful human interaction.

Actually, you don’t need to come from an invalidating background to not understand this concept; feeling heard is a precious commodity in most circles. But people who’ve had invalidating childhoods are likely to have a harder time identifying the issue and doing something about it than those with more supportive backgrounds.

What is feeling heard? Feeling heard is pretty much what it sounds like: somebody makes the effort to really hear what you’re saying, with no agenda other than understanding what you’re about. Feeling heard is just another way of saying feeling valued, appreciated, and respected, of feeling like you really matter. Hearing and feeling heard means we are fully present with another person.

So simple, yet so rare.

And how about those guilt feelings?

I know she was probably a very difficult person to be around. But she also is here, because it is here where she fits. And she has her own lessons to learn. Just like you are special in your way, she is too, in her way.
The way she treated you might be because she was treated the same way or in a similar way when she was an innocent child.
When you realize that, and perhaps you have, it is time to not follow your family's steps anymore and that you start making your own.
Be the one who understands and listens to people, be the one who truly pays strict attention to objective reality right and left.

Your mother perhaps didn't love herself the way she maybe claimed she did, but maybe You Can.
Maybe you Can stop all the lying to Yourself and others.

And if you love yourself and accept yourself for who you are, sometimes ugly and sometimes beautiful (symbolic), then is it really important to be uncomfortable when you are just doing what you're doing?
Some people might think you're crazy or silly or anything, but who's telling they're right anyways? They don't know you. And maybe in a way they could be right, who knows? But that's why we're working on ourselves right?, to become a ''better'' person, to be a Master of ourselves. We are machines and we can have difficulties with practicing External Consideration or something else and we might come across as ''crazy'' or ''weird'', but we should be thankful for those comments in a way, because they can help us to become Us. Or they can help us realize that not everyone knows us, who we truly are inside and what our goals are, which is very normal.

Live your life the way You want it, don't let the predator take that away from you. Take challenges. If you have the opportunity to be with a lot of people, take that opportunity and try to Be there without having those uncomfortable thoughts. I truly think it is possible, through (self) knowledge. I also think the breathing program will be of great help. Also asking the Divine Cosmic Mind for help in this might be helping as well.

--

When I was 13 I was friends with a girl who was being picked on by another girl. I talked with the bully some times, but never liked her and never hung out with her.
I asked the girl who was being bullied: ''Would you be friends with that girl if you could?'' And she said ''Yes''
That was just the strangest thing I've ever heard, yet understandable in some way.
To not be bullied anymore is to be friends with the enemy. I guess.

I was reminded of that when I read:

It's odd because I've never been interested in being popular but yet I've always struggled with the feeling that I wanted people to like me even if they were a jerk.

I thought that it might be interesting. It seems that both of you just need that kind of attention you never had, so much that it just doesn't matter anymore from who it comes from.

--

So in a nutshell, there are three things I've noticed:

- little Self Love
- need for attention, to be heard
- desire to be the ''perfect'' person

It's funny that bjorn said in the beginning:

This story of yours can also be an excuse all together, to not confront yourself.

You are afraid to be in the center of the attention, even though that is what you DO desire. And it also clashes with you trying to be all perfect so that everyone who is paying attention to you will continue on paying attention to you without having weird thoughts about you.

Mixed and opposite thought patterns at once.

Perhaps if you clear each way of thinking or though pattern one by one, you will get rid of these uncomfortable thoughts.
It won't happen in one night I think, so let's just take it easy, babysteps. :)

This is from Bringers of the Dawn, which might inspire you:

/Thought comes first. /Experience is always secondary. It is never the
other way around-that you have the experience and then you base the
thought around it. Always your experience is a direct reflection of what
you are thinking.

Clarity and recognition of your own power are the bottom line. Your
thoughts form your world /all of the time. /Not cafeteria /style-all of
the time. /Because you are bombarded with so many frequency-control
vibrations that attempt to keep you from being clear, you fluctuate. You
must, as a species, make it your intention to stay very clear, to stay
centered, and always to bring yourself into the moment. Stop living in
the future or living in the past, and always live in your now. Say to
yourself,

"What do I want? I want to accelerate my personal evolution. I
want Spirit to assist me in a greater capacity. I want my body to
regenerate itself. I want to emanate health. I am willing to give up
difficulty so that I can be a living example of what humanity can be."

It is this line of thinking - this commanding from your being and calling
out what you want with clarity - that brings you everything in acceleration.

[...]

Watch your patterns. If you find yourself denying that you created a
portion of your experience, and you don't want to own it as your
creation, simply look at it. Say, "Isn't this interesting - I do this all
of the time. I don't want to own what I am creating. If I don't like it,
I blame someone else. Let me see how long I will do this, and let me
come up with a solution to develop a different pattern of behavior."

Don't judge yourself. Begin to say to yourself, "I will accept
responsibility for all that I am involved in. I will accept
responsibility for everything that happens to me. If I don't like what
is happening to me, I will begin to ask myself why I create things that
I don't like. Maybe it's to get my attention about something so that I
can change what is really not working for me that I cannot see."

[...]

Do not be afraid of what you create. /Trust what you create. /Trust that
there is always something in it for you. Do not sweep your dramas under
the rug as if they are dirty old horrible things and you never wish to
see them again. Get finished with these dramas: stop cycling in them and
being lost in them. However, understand that the drama you have had with
your mother, your brother, your sister, your lover is something you may
use twenty years later to come to a whole new realization. So let these
life dramas be like a file for you. Finish them up, resolve them as best
you can, create peace, accept your part in them, and then let them cycle
back through your consciousness to teach you something. Let them be
ongoing treasures of experience for yourself rather than hackles that
you want to get past. Emotion is connected with these things, and
remember, emotion can take you into other realms of activity.

--

As always and as with everything, I could be wrong.

Sorry for the long post, hopefully it can be of help.

 

[Evolutionary1]

Hi all. I'm just catching up in this thread and happy to see how many are working to crack this issue. Thanks for all of your insights.

Interesting though how the devaluing of your/my worth and the "know-it-all" identity work together as two sides of the same coin! What got me past the fear of posting is knowing/trusting that the members here are replying out of love not to feed off you in any way. What also helps is knowing that the way to overcome the fear is by seeing it and practicing dealing with what comes up. Everytime I've allowed the fear to have it's own way, the situation only gets worse. It also helps me when I stop focusing on what I feel and help someone else even if it's just posting to the welcome thread. It stops the focusing on myself and places it in perspective (or so I think).
/quote]


So true! And this is an essential point that I will always keep in mind. By interacting here, I can hope to see how love actually manifests and how to move through the fear, using it as a tool for growth for myself and, eventually, others.

-Hi Evolutionary1

[quote author=Evolutionary1]Like my mother, I became somewhat obsessed with the idea of being pretty, though I was more secretive about it because I felt that there was something frivolous and destructive within this obsession and that "evolved" women shouldn't care so much about appearances. Mostly, I identified with being the "smart one," a "know-it-all." Or, like Truth Seeker, I identified with being "good and nice" so as to distract others--and myself, especially myself--from my essentially dishonest nature.

Those first 2 seems like they contradict each together, that causes a ‘conflict.’ The ‘good and nice’ program you say you identified the most with.

I guess what you mean with your ‘essentially dishonest nature’ Are those 2. Which you are trying to hide from others but also yourself. Do you think you do this by giving this ‘good and nice’ program more attention?

Yes, absolutely! I was too insecure physically to identify too strongly with being pretty, and, like I said, I was never comfortable with my preoccupation with appearance, so I certainly have a tendency to focus on being "nice" and "smart" to obscure my more superficial traits. Now, I am trying to see how being nice and "helpful" can be another way to serve self at the expense of others.

By my "dishonest nature" I was referring specifically to the fact that many of my thoughts and tendencies did not reflect the image of myself that I tried to project and I never felt whole because of the natural conflict caused by my contradictory nature. It caused basic fears of being "found out" as a phony, of having to see myself just how deep the lies went...they go pretty deep as you all know, but I won't stop digging now!



[quote author=Evolutionary1]For a while I've been fully aware of my lack of integration, of my tendency to be many false selves depending on circumstances[/quote]

Depending on the circumstances? they active according to them?

You mean it depends with what kinds of people you are, the mood of the surroundings? Events what are happening?
Can you be more specific?

Well, yes to all of the above. I noticed (and still notice) that I was more "role-playing" than being myself. I knew that I had no idea who I really was and that there was this "self" that I was when I was alone that I would protect from the outside world no matter the cost because it was not what I wanted people to see me as: it was selfish and insecure and petty and jealous and acutely unhappy with my life.


[quote author=Evolutionary1]In the mean time, I will do my best to put away inner considering and "get over myself"[/quote]

You may say to yourself which I also many times did, why can’t I just choose to be ‘myself’? But it isn’t that easy. When we become more aware of our own programs, we can in that progress choose to keep or either lose them. But only when we become AWARE, then we can choose.


Bjorn, I agree, and for now I am trying to put aside the program that criticizes and judges everything, at least until I have observed enough--with help :)--to see myself more clearly.

 

[Evolutionary1]

I totally screwed up the quoting in my above post. Sorry about that! It's kind of hit or miss with me--I'll have to check out that tutorial again...

 

[bjorb]

Hi Evolutionary and everyone.

About your way you did that post. Don’t matter about that. Really.

As for this topic. I think I have a lot to add. Who knows it may be useful. Anyway I have a lot to study right now. I will try to give some feedback in the beginning of next week.

Have a nice weekend. :)

 

[realitybugll]

I have a question and a comment.

question
I read a lot of people talking about the desire to be "liked" that they had or still have. I read all that has been written but I still don't understand the need to be liked very well. For me, I want to be loved; I want to be cared for, but down here on 3rd density most of us need that I think it's normal. Is that what it is meant when some of you say you wanted to be "liked" by everyone or by certain people etc...?

comment
I want to insert a quote here but the "topic summary" doesn't go back all the way to they beginning of the thread. Anyways, some people were talking about how they never learned/ were taught social skills etc. I don't believe most people consciously learn or are taught social skills. I think it's more about picking them up, and some people either do or they don't. this doesn't pertain to all, but some people who are 'good' at socializing were probably from an early age put in a lot of uncomfortable situations and they basically had to figure out how to interact with people to survive. Whereas the kid that always had his mom with him and was never subject to social situations alone never developed the skills so he's going to have problems when he gets older. Likewise children with 'best friends' that do everything together mostly likely have less of a necessity to get a grip on social skills because they have no need to. they are perfectly content hanging out with their friend. sorry if this is unclear, wish I had more time to expand.

I might post a personal response later.

 

[truth seeker]

Consider even, that when realizing not just you or I may feel anxiety, but the very persons we are anxious with, within their presents, they may in fact feel just the same.

Absolutely! I've only recently begun to realize this.

You are not alone here, anxiety comes in many forms, diet can add to this as can so much more; you’re asking the question and listing to others is awareness, which is looking at the self and outside the self with discernment.

Yes, it's really interesting looking at it from this side as well as freeing in a sense. Maybe I'm no longer carrying the burden of the illusion that says something is wrong with me.

However, what he did was to enroll in toast masters; he became a world leader in this venue, but what he learned was interesting in that the people were not really intent on analyzing him, what they really wanted was to listen to what he said, people want to be engaged, they want to learn and everything that made him anxious left when he figured that out.

That's a really great example of how we essentially make up a story in our mind and then interpret situations to support it.

Notwithstanding the above, there also seems perhaps another aspect to anxiety, perhaps it is intuitive and not conscious; and I may not be interpreting this correctly, so please help me out? But anxiety perhaps too can be born as stated, intuitively, when faced with the unknown, high strangeness, persons or situations that just can’t be comprehended and depending on ones experiences and knowledge base, anxiety can manifest in ways that can’t be rationalized, thus one may perceived the problem as being themselves when it was only triggered within the self and not indicative of the self? :/

Actually I think your interpretation is spot on and way better that I could have put it! This is basically what I was trying to say in terms of connecting it to the high strangeness factor as I believe that everything is connected. Nothing is separate. I'm not trying to place blame on strange situations, but rather just attempting to piece together how it all works. I will say that I've always been what is termed as an introvert. I don't however think of myself as shy. All through my life, I've always preferred to have a small group of close friends as opposed to many. This is all just to say that perhaps there needs to be a seed in order to be triggered? Maybe being introspective acted in my case as the seed and was then triggered by constant unusual situations (when I've told friends about these things, they at some point say: Why do these things only happen to you?). These unusual situations then caused me to try and understand/rationalize what was happening and one of the rationalizations was that maybe something is wrong with me. I think at that point, as a defense, I also thought (when I realized that not everyone was experiencing what I was) that something was also wrong with people if that makes any sense.

So basically, it was/is my interpretations of these events coupled with the growing anticipation of them recurring that caused the perceived confirmation. This, I think, is what links the two.

One thing that helps me in social situations is that I go into them with the expectation that most people really won't care that much about me enough to either like or dislike me, some people will like me, and some people will dislike me.

I've thought this as well. It's funny how you can know something intellectually, but really until you come to some understanding of how your own machine works and how you are contributing to a situation that the problem will change. I think what you're getting at is a valid point though. If I'm understanding you correctly, the lack of anticipation lessens the way the "confirmations" presented are perceived.

I think that that is the way I feel about myself: most of the time I have a neutral feeling about myself as I go about my day, sometimes I'm really happy to be me, sometimes I can't believe what a jerk I am, and sometimes I realize things about myself that fill me with horror and remorse and a desire to change.

All in all, I think I'm pretty happy to be me as I can't imagine what it would be to be someone else. I also recognize that no matter how good someone elses life appears, they also have their fair share of stuff to deal with. What really used to plague me was the feeling that my life had no purpose. Why was I here on this crazy planet? I knew that I wasn't here by accident, but still didn't feel as if I fit in. When I finally found this site/forum, it then fell into place for me and resulted in huge relief. I finally stopped beating up on myself and any thoughts of ending it quickly left.

I don't think it's really about changing as that implies that something is wrong and requires fixing. I think of it more as growth. Essentially, there is nothing wrong with you. In my opinion (and experience) this is an incorrect perception that only leads to shame and other negative feelings and impatience with oneself. Whatever you have done (or think you've done) you did at the time based on the knowledge you had. You are now gaining knowledge and that will in turn (I think) change the past, present and future. How do I think this happens? I think it happens when insights gained from the intake of knowledge start to influence the decisions you are making and will make which then affects past (or what will become the past), present and future. If you ever decide (again based on knowledge gained) to make amends for something you did in the past, that too will affect "change". Does that make sense?

I think what has helped me most in dealing with all of this is just to accept, as I said before, that some people just won't like me. No matter what I do, how hard I try, how well meaning I am, they'll just never like me, and that's okay. Right now I'd rather be a person that other people respect because I've earned it, because of my actions and being, rather than a person who is just liked for whatever.

That's very freeing somehow for me. It lets me be free to work on myself. My aim is to live a responsible life, do some good in the world, be externally considerate, work on getting rid of my own pathologies, make amends if it's appropriate and if I can with anyone I've hurt, and increase my level of objective knowledge and the level of my being.

If I can do all of that, I don't care what most people think of me. I only give that power to a few: and only after I've checked them out for awhile. If I respect them, then I care. I care a lot.

What will be interesting for me to eventually look into is if the people who I think don't like me really don't! Am I projecting or not...

These kind of programs or this way of thinking is quite beneficial to the ''bad guys'' ''out there'', because I think that thinking too much about yourself inhibits you to be yourself and if you can't be yourself, how could you ever help yourself or even others?

Your mind is the predators mind. The predator tells you that it is important how people think about you, on some level I think it is important to take into account of what you're doing and saying, this is where External Consideration comes into place, but it is not a ''good'' thing if you keep on having uncomfortable chaotic thoughts on what you're doing all the time, which makes you feel uncomfortable.

Wouldn't it be better to know what you're doing and saying and being comfortable at the same time?

I think Self-Love is the key here. How much do you love yourself? Did your mother ever told you she loves you?

Good points made.

I think I do love myself, but honestly at this point I'm in the process of redefining what love is. I'll really need to take a look at what my current definitions are (which I think are more based in reality) and compare it against what I used to think loving myself entailed.

My mother would tell me at times that she loved me, but it wasn't really part of the fabric of our lives if that makes sense. It didn't feel natural, but rather forced. In her defense though perhaps she did feel uncomfortable but in her attempt to push past that said it anyway. In short, I'll say that while I felt loved, I didn't feel understood/seen and sometimes accepted. Sometimes I felt as though I wasn't really wanted because of circumstances surrounding my conception and birth, not because of anything she specifically said or did. Once she became a mother, she devoted herself full time to it.

You said :

I never really felt heard.

If I understand that correctly, did you mean that she never really paid attention to who you Really are?
And now, maybe you are trying to find that kind of attention from other people, the kind of attention your mother never gave you, perhaps.
Perhaps you didn't feel that you were ''enough'' for your mom. Perhaps you weren't that what your mother expected you to be. The perfect daughter, defined by her own needs.
And now you maybe try to be the perfect friend, so that you won't go through those small traumas again, traumas which you probably have been ignoring or forgetting most of the time. The same feelings that you were experiencing during those traumas will pop up in certain circumstances, but might not be recognized as what they truly are.
But maybe you can find out now.

She had expectations of what our relationship was going to be. I believe she wanted us to be really close like some mothers and daughters are (where they do everything together until one dies).

Around age 8, she switched me from one school to another which really made me angry at the time. It's not so much that I expected to be included in the decision, but we never even talked about it. There was also the issue with being dressed up (perfectly) from a child. I rebelled from the age of 12/13 in regards to dressing/looks. It just wasn't who I was. The situation however, that pretty much completely broke my trust was when at age 13/14 I found out the truth concerning my birth that my mother wouldn't/couldn't tell me. I found out by looking through old documents and piecing events together by date. I remember to this day how upset I was. In retrospect, it's a completely common situation but it was the unspoken truth (which felt like a lack of trust on her part even though I couldn't name it at the time) that did a lot of damage.

A large part of the issue was from lack of communication. I remember trying many, many times to communicate with her. The subject depended on the response. If it was an uncomfortable subject, she tried to put it off (really in hopes that I would forget about it or drop it). If it was "comfortable" you could only get so far until it would become uncomfortable in which case response would result.

Looking back on all of this, I clearly understand that it wasn't personal, it only felt that way. She (and my father to a similar extent) were products of the time and their own upbringings. They also (I believe) had their own issues with not feeling self empowered. They lived their lives always keeping their heads down so as to not "cause trouble". This was what people (and more specifically black people and other minorities) felt they had to do to survive. This, I'm starting to see, is how ponerization of society affects the family and by extension individuals.

Here is something I found on another website:

_http://www.bravenewkitty.com/?p=111

When you grow up in an invalidating environment—that is, one in which you aren’t valued and appreciated, whatever form that may take—it’s likely you struggle to “feel heard.” Furthermore, it’s likely you struggle with it without even knowing what it is. But feeling heard is one of the most important things a person needs to feel safe, nurtured, respected, and loved. It’s the very cornerstone of connection and the basis of all meaningful human interaction.

Absolutely! I believe that further, it's the validation of who you are (you're very soul and existence) and every human being requires it as much as the air they breathe.

And how about those guilt feelings?

I know she was probably a very difficult person to be around. But she also is here, because it is here where she fits. And she has her own lessons to learn. Just like you are special in your way, she is too, in her way.
The way she treated you might be because she was treated the same way or in a similar way when she was an innocent child.
When you realize that, and perhaps you have, it is time to not follow your family's steps anymore and that you start making your own.
Be the one who understands and listens to people, be the one who truly pays strict attention to objective reality right and left.

Your mother perhaps didn't love herself the way she maybe claimed she did, but maybe You Can.
Maybe you Can stop all the lying to Yourself and others.

Definitely! And this is the lesson plan right now. After everything that's happened, I really hold no blame or anger in my heart (I let go of that long ago). My task now is to learn from it.

Live your life the way You want it, don't let the predator take that away from you. Take challenges. If you have the opportunity to be with a lot of people, take that opportunity and try to Be there without having those uncomfortable thoughts. I truly think it is possible, through (self) knowledge. I also think the breathing program will be of great help. Also asking the Divine Cosmic Mind for help in this might be helping as well.

The one thing I've always been able to do is live the life I wanted. I look forward (well not always) to facing this particular challenge. The breathing program, In my opinion is really helping.

When I was 13 I was friends with a girl who was being picked on by another girl. I talked with the bully some times, but never liked her and never hung out with her.
I asked the girl who was being bullied: ''Would you be friends with that girl if you could?'' And she said ''Yes''
That was just the strangest thing I've ever heard, yet understandable in some way.
To not be bullied anymore is to be friends with the enemy. I guess.

I was reminded of that when I read:

It's odd because I've never been interested in being popular but yet I've always struggled with the feeling that I wanted people to like me even if they were a jerk.

I thought that it might be interesting. It seems that both of you just need that kind of attention you never had, so much that it just doesn't matter anymore from who it comes from.

--

So in a nutshell, there are three things I've noticed:

- little Self Love
- need for attention, to be heard
- desire to be the ''perfect'' person

It's funny that bjorn said in the beginning:

This story of yours can also be an excuse all together, to not confront yourself.

You are afraid to be in the center of the attention, even though that is what you DO desire. And it also clashes with you trying to be all perfect so that everyone who is paying attention to you will continue on paying attention to you without having weird thoughts about you.

Mixed and opposite thought patterns at once.

Perhaps if you clear each way of thinking or though pattern one by one, you will get rid of these uncomfortable thoughts.
It won't happen in one night I think, so let's just take it easy, babysteps. :)

I wonder if sometimes the word attention is used when what is really being pointed to is validation. Attention has the feeling of wanting people to fawn over you when what it feels like to me is the desire to be seen (without eyes), heard (without ears) but rather with the heart... To do this perhaps needs to start with looking/confronting what is in our own heart. To recognize and validate own own (inner) bully/predator so that they can then become an ally?

Another connection that's occurring to me: Perhaps it's the real "I" that desires to be validated but when that happens, the false "i" (bully) is afraid of the truth validation brings and so tells the self lies (false interpretations/perceptions) so that the blame is laid on the real "I" by the "I" and thus focus is removed from the false "i" which keeps it intact. Does that sound completely crazy? Do I even have the concepts correct (I'm just beginning to read Ouspensky).

Sorry for the long post, hopefully it can be of help.

Not at all! It was extremely helpful! Thanks!

I have a question and a comment.

question
I read a lot of people talking about the desire to be "liked" that they had or still have. I read all that has been written but I still don't understand the need to be liked very well. For me, I want to be loved; I want to be cared for, but down here on 3rd density most of us need that I think it's normal. Is that what it is meant when some of you say you wanted to be "liked" by everyone or by certain people etc...?

I beginning to think we're using the word like when what we really mean is validation which I also think is a form of love.

comment
I want to insert a quote here but the "topic summary" doesn't go back all the way to they beginning of the thread. Anyways, some people were talking about how they never learned/ were taught social skills etc. I don't believe most people consciously learn or are taught social skills. I think it's more about picking them up, and some people either do or they don't. this doesn't pertain to all, but some people who are 'good' at socializing were probably from an early age put in a lot of uncomfortable situations and they basically had to figure out how to interact with people to survive. Whereas the kid that always had his mom with him and was never subject to social situations alone never developed the skills so he's going to have problems when he gets older. Likewise children with 'best friends' that do everything together mostly likely have less of a necessity to get a grip on social skills because they have no need to. they are perfectly content hanging out with their friend. sorry if this is unclear, wish I had more time to expand.

I think you have a point here. I was pretty sheltered as a kid. I had friends and social activities, but it was really around high school that the shift began. At this point, if one doesn't learn or become comfortable with social skills, I believe it can really affect the rest of your life. This is the point where interactions start to mature and people really start to notice each other and themselves (meaning their own thoughts). I think prior to that, we're too involved with ourselves to be interested in what others think. Perhaps this is why so many people start to drink/do drugs around this time, not just to fit in but also to lessen the stress of these interactions by finding a way to dissociate...

It would be interesting to hear other people's take on this.

edit: fixing big blue posts

 

[obyvatel]

I wonder if sometimes the word attention is used when what is really being pointed to is validation. Attention has the feeling of wanting people to fawn over you when what it feels like to me is the desire to be seen (without eyes), heard (without ears) but rather with the heart... To do this perhaps needs to start with looking/confronting what is in our own heart. To recognize and validate own own (inner) bully/predator so that they can then become an ally?

Another connection that's occurring to me: Perhaps it's the real "I" that desires to be validated but when that happens, the false "i" (bully) is afraid of the truth validation brings and so tells the self lies (false interpretations/perceptions) so that the blame is laid on the real "I" by the "I" and thus focus is removed from the false "i" which keeps it intact. Does that sound completely crazy? Do I even have the concepts correct (I'm just beginning to read Ouspensky).

I do not think that the Real I needs any validation from external sources - it exists by itself. Also I don't see much of a practical difference between the attention and validation part as far as work on the self goes. Both are normal and both are internal considering and seek to bolster the image of the self through others. Most of us do it perhaps because of narcissistic wounding in the formative years that did not let us develop a healthy sense of self love. Self love has been and still is a tricky concept for me. The "self" is fragmented into many parts - and love is said to related to knowledge. Observation of the fragmented self illuminates some parts which are instruments of the predator's mind while some other parts which are different. My current understanding is that self love of the beneficial kind is about gaining objective knowledge about this divided internal state and then nurture/encourage those parts of the self that are "higher" ( for the lack of a better term) and struggle against those parts which are "lower"- instruments of the predator's mind. It seems that this is the process of growth - it involves both nurturing care and a bitter struggle at the same time.
Seeking validation for ideas and thoughts through networking is beneficial; however seeking validation for the essential self is a property of the predator's mind - osit.

From Narcissistic Family By Pressman and Pressman

A major stumbling block faced by many individuals who are products of narcissistic families is their overwhelming need for external validation. ...... The tendency to generealize lack of approval of specific behaviors (words, ideas and so forth) to lack of approval of oneself as a human being is one of the more problematic areas for these individuals.

This tendency may well be the root cause of some forms of social anxiety. I agree with Parallax about the other type of anxiety

But anxiety perhaps too can be born as stated, intuitively, when faced with the unknown, high strangeness, persons or situations that just can’t be comprehended and depending on ones experiences and knowledge base, anxiety can manifest in ways that can’t be rationalized, thus one may perceived the problem as being themselves when it was only triggered within the self and not indicative of the self?

However discerning whether it is some sort of projection coming from the self or something truly coming from outside could be a challenge sometimes - osit.

 

[webglider]

What will be interesting for me to eventually look into is if the people who I think don't like me really don't!

Why does this matter?

Am I projecting or not...

I can't answer that question for you, but I can ask another: Why are you spending so much time on this?

If the working hypothesis on this forum is true - that most people are composed of groupings of little i's each of which is hardly aware of the others - it stands to reason that someone's groups of i's that liked you yesterday may not like you today for some reason - maybe today you remind them of their 4th grade teacher, their mother, or a bully they had a bad experience with in middle school, or they ate something that disagreed with them, or they just had a fight with their signifcant other, their child, or they had a disturbing dream they now don't remember. Who knows? Probably they wouldn't even know either if you asked them.

I don't think it's really about changing as that implies that something is wrong and requires fixing. I think of it more as growth. Essentially, there is nothing wrong with you. In my opinion (and experience) this is an incorrect perception that only leads to shame and other negative feelings and impatience with oneself. Whatever you have done (or think you've done) you did at the time based on the knowledge you had. You are now gaining knowledge and that will in turn (I think) change the past, present and future. How do I think this happens? I think it happens when insights gained from the intake of knowledge start to influence the decisions you are making and will make which then affects past (or what will become the past), present and future. If you ever decide (again based on knowledge gained) to make amends for something you did in the past, that too will affect "change". Does that make sense?

I don't think shame is a bad thing if it's connected to remorse. There are some things I've done for which I feel shame and remorse, and I think it's healthy that I do. Yes, I was at a different level of development at that time, but my actions did affect others, and I do have to take responsibility for what I did.

That type of shame which comes from inside is different from the feeling of shame that is implanted externally.
I'll give you an example.

I used to be a high school teacher. High school kids are always shaming each other, and some kids take that those feelings to heart and as a result feel badly about themselves.

Well, one day I was running late so I got dressed in a hurry and ran out of the house. I made it to my first class on time, but halfway through one of the kids called out: "Hey, Ms. W is wearing two different color shoes." All the kids started laughing hysterically. So what I did was say: "You're right. Look at this, isn't this the craziest thing?": and I extended each foot so that the kids could see that the shoes didn't match. When they saw that I wasn't upset, they stopped laughing and we went on with the lesson.

At the beginning of each of my four remaining classes, I began the lesson by making an announcement about my mismatched shoes. Each time the kids began to laugh, but stopped. Since I couldn't be humiliated, it wasn't fun to keep going.

Another example of this concerns a pair of really ugly, but sturdy, boots that I wear everytime it snows and the streets are icy. One day when I wore my ugly boots one kid called out: "Hey Ms. W, those boots are U-G-L-Y.

So I said: "Yes these boots are really ugly, and but I love them. They keep me warm, and I don't slide all over the ice on the street."

After a beat or two, another kid called out: "I wish that I had those pair of boots. I wore these stupid shoes and I fell twice this morning."

After that we went on with the lesson.

Now I didn't have the where-with-all to react like this when I was their age and I often fell shamed and inadequate. So luckily I had the chance to go back to high school where the kids taught me how to handle myself in the world, (I learned by watching how the self-confident ones handled such situations.)

I watched my daughter struggle with experiences of feeling shame when she was in middle school. There was a group of girls who made just about everyone feel bad. Although my daughter had many friends, all of them were affected negatively by this particular group of girls.

But it wasn't just these girls who were hurtful. One day one girl who had been her best friend since they were three came over to my daughter with another girl and asked: "Who do you like better - me or her?

My daughter really didn't know what to say, and finally - after many demands from the two girls - she of course said that she like the girl she had known the longest best.

So her "best friend" said: "You mean you don't like my friend."
And the other girl said something equally shame inducing, and then they both laughed and walked away.

I wouldn't have known what to say to such a set-up at her age either, but now I do. If I could go back in time, or take my daughter's place for that exchange, I would say, "What makes you think I like either of you?"

I would say it with a smile on my face so that they wouldn't be able to know if I meant it or not.

But of course, that's because now I wouldn't care.

So now, it's very rare that I allow anyone to affect how I feel about myself UNLESS I cause them injury of some kind. Then it's my responsibility to own up to what I've done and make amends.

I'm just wondering truth-seeker if you had those kinds of experiences in school when you were younger. Is that why you care so much whether or not others like you? Because at that age, being put in those situations is hell and can affect someone for a long, long time.

 

[truth seeker]

What will be interesting for me to eventually look into is if the people who I think don't like me really don't!

Why does this matter?

Am I projecting or not...

I can't answer that question for you, but I can ask another: Why are you spending so much time on this?

This is the crux. It's probably as bjorn said. If I'm busy getting caught up in this, it keeps me from confronting the real issue and I end up going round and round with it.

I'm just wondering truth-seeker if you had those kinds of experiences in school when you were younger. Is that why you care so much whether or not others like you? Because at that age, being put in those situations is hell and can affect someone for a long, long time.

Perhaps... Around the age of seven, I had two instances where someone attempted to bully me. Both times I confronted them and had no more issues with them. Now in junior high/high school is where it started to get away from me. This is where I started to realize that I wasn't universally liked. This was where I started to feel "different".

While I didn't experience the both ends against the middle game that your daughter did, there were definitely some instances of one ups manship going on. I felt completely comfortable in defending others, but now when it came down to being my own advocate I was frozen unless it was a situation that was overt (someone coming directly up to me and saying something nasty or something affecting my safety). The subtle situations left me confused as to what was happening and unable to get a handle on what was going on until way after it was over. Unfortunately, I didn't develop skills to recognize this type of behavior much less take any action.

A couple of positive things:

This week I had two unexpected social functions come up with which to practice. The usual conversation started in my head but I decided to ignore it. I wouldn't say that I did great, but it was okay. Each time I started to feel uncomfortable, I switched focus to what people were saying. This was made more difficult because I'm in Belgium and don't speak dutch which the majority of people were. Now I'm trying to find a way to figure out what to do when there is a group conversation going on in a different language (do I try to follow along which makes people think I understand what they're saying or just stand there but not really engage which is rude?). Either way, I actually look forward to figuring it out.

The second function was also more difficult because we couldn't leave at any time but rather had to be there for 6 hours which seemed like forever initially. Again, I practiced shifting focus and I think I did okay for the most part.

What I'm starting to find out is that some of the high strangeness I've experienced concerns this same dynamic. The same perceptions that I use to confirm social anxiety mirror the perceptions that confirm the unusual situations if that makes sense. I think this is one connection between the two.

I wonder if sometimes the word attention is used when what is really being pointed to is validation. Attention has the feeling of wanting people to fawn over you when what it feels like to me is the desire to be seen (without eyes), heard (without ears) but rather with the heart... To do this perhaps needs to start with looking/confronting what is in our own heart. To recognize and validate own own (inner) bully/predator so that they can then become an ally?

Another connection that's occurring to me: Perhaps it's the real "I" that desires to be validated but when that happens, the false "i" (bully) is afraid of the truth validation brings and so tells the self lies (false interpretations/perceptions) so that the blame is laid on the real "I" by the "I" and thus focus is removed from the false "i" which keeps it intact. Does that sound completely crazy? Do I even have the concepts correct (I'm just beginning to read Ouspensky).

I do not think that the Real I needs any validation from external sources - it exists by itself. Also I don't see much of a practical difference between the attention and validation part as far as work on the self goes. Both are normal and both are internal considering and seek to bolster the image of the self through others. Most of us do it perhaps because of narcissistic wounding in the formative years that did not let us develop a healthy sense of self love. Self love has been and still is a tricky concept for me. The "self" is fragmented into many parts - and love is said to related to knowledge. Observation of the fragmented self illuminates some parts which are instruments of the predator's mind while some other parts which are different. My current understanding is that self love of the beneficial kind is about gaining objective knowledge about this divided internal state and then nurture/encourage those parts of the self that are "higher" ( for the lack of a better term) and struggle against those parts which are "lower"- instruments of the predator's mind. It seems that this is the process of growth - it involves both nurturing care and a bitter struggle at the same time.
Seeking validation for ideas and thoughts through networking is beneficial; however seeking validation for the essential self is a property of the predator's mind - osit.

From Narcissistic Family By Pressman and Pressman

A major stumbling block faced by many individuals who are products of narcissistic families is their overwhelming need for external validation. ...... The tendency to generealize lack of approval of specific behaviors (words, ideas and so forth) to lack of approval of oneself as a human being is one of the more problematic areas for these individuals.

This tendency may well be the root cause of some forms of social anxiety.

These are very good points/distinctions you made. I really want to take some time to think about this. Thank you obyvatel.

 

[anart]

This is the crux. It's probably as bjorn said. If I'm busy getting caught up in this, it keeps me from confronting the real issue and I end up going round and round with it.

Yes. It's an internal negative feedback loop. I think this was touched on earlier in this thread, but what it really comes down to - in all cases like this, be it social anxiety or just shyness and everything in between - is Inner Considering. You are the focus of all your thought and attention.

All of it is Inner Considering. Once seen as such, and understood as such, it is often much easier to change it. If you can practice External Consideration in such situations, you'll find your social anxiety has no room to fit in, as it were - since you're concentrating all of your Effort (thought and energy) on External Consideration. fwiw.

 

[Voyageur]

obyvatel quotes;

From Narcissistic Family By Pressman and Pressman

A major stumbling block faced by many individuals who are products of narcissistic families is their overwhelming need for external validation. ...... The tendency to generealize lack of approval of specific behaviors (words, ideas and so forth) to lack of approval of oneself as a human being is one of the more problematic areas for these individuals.

Particularly so if one is from a Narcissistic family; but perhaps not only that, perhaps this can be developed from within the global/social psyche too?

Quote from: truthseeker
What will be interesting for me to eventually look into is if the people who I think don't like me really don't!

Is this because we seek such validation and when it does not feedback we feel different, become conversationally and socially aloof? Often people have this wish to have everyone like them and will go to all levels and means to project in effort to get this feedback, OSIT. It may become a circular behaviour loop and in social settings, fitting into all manners of groups and conversations with the intent of being liked, validated, and understood may cause one to act in ways not natural to their general nature. When the feedback is not validated does one thus take this as not being liked?

Politicians will often say and do things or manipulate to engage people to like them – to their political ends; this is so of work environments where being liked is getting along, even if it’s to the detriment of oneself. Much in this way gets swept under the rug to attain this goal and if the perception is otherwise, then one may think, they must not rally like me?

If perhaps the people who work here on this forum in effort to have their “Eyes Wide Open” and then one takes this general network thinking into the community at large and communicates it, in effort to be liked, validated and understood, one may think this to be impossible. In social settings whether school, work, gatherings, etcetera, is this any different? you will be liked "(words, ideas and so forth)", and not liked, which is natural given the global mindsets; Lobaczewski says “…life itself provides variegated condition…” So it could be said that manipulation of conditions, to sway to the liked side, being validated, may set up all kinds of social anxiety pitfalls if things are not perceived as one expects?

 

[truth seeker]

Quote from: truthseeker
What will be interesting for me to eventually look into is if the people who I think don't like me really don't!

Is this because we seek such validation and when it does not feedback we feel different, become conversationally and socially aloof? Often people have this wish to have everyone like them and will go to all levels and means to project in effort to get this feedback, OSIT. It may become a circular behaviour loop and in social settings, fitting into all manners of groups and conversations with the intent of being liked, validated, and understood may cause one to act in ways not natural to their general nature. When the feedback is not validated does one thus take this as not being liked?

One thing that occurred to me this morning is that I basically felt responsible for my mother's emotional well being and find that this is one of the things working in this loop." I'm uncomfortable, am I also making others uncomfortable?" So I am in essence at some point my mother or my mother's child, never myself but I'm working to correct this.

Yes. It's an internal negative feedback loop. I think this was touched on earlier in this thread, but what it really comes down to - in all cases like this, be it social anxiety or just shyness and everything in between - is Inner Considering. You are the focus of all your thought and attention.

All of it is Inner Considering. Once seen as such, and understood as such, it is often much easier to change it. If you can practice External Consideration in such situations, you'll find your social anxiety has no room to fit in, as it were - since you're concentrating all of your Effort (thought and energy) on External Consideration. fwiw.

Yes, this was what happened at the two gatherings I was at last week. It was the first time I really felt that I could get past this.

 

[bjorb]

[quote author=Oxajil]These kind of programs or this way of thinking is quite beneficial to the ''bad guys'' ''out there'', because I think that thinking too much about yourself inhibits you to be yourself and if you can't be yourself, how could you ever help yourself or even others?[/quote]

Indeed how farther we are removed from ‘ourselves’ thus the harder it will be to see creation as it is.


[quote author=webglider]I think what has helped me most in dealing with all of this is just to accept, as I said before, that some people just won't like me. No matter what I do, how hard I try, how well meaning I am, they'll just never like me, and that's okay. Right now I'd rather be a person that other people respect because I've earned it, because of my actions and being, rather than a person who is just liked for whatever.[/quote]

What others my think about you. I think the right approach is, and on everything else – to not anticipate on it.

Being worried about what others may think about you and caring about others are 2 separate things.

I think you understand that, but it's more to clarify. Also to everybody else. Maybe it's something to think about.


-Hi Evolutionary1

[quote author=bjorn]Depending on the circumstances? they active according to them?

You mean it depends with what kinds of people you are, the mood of the surroundings? Events what are happening?
Can you be more specific?
[/quote]

[quote author=Evolutionary1]Well, yes to all of the above. I noticed (and still notice) that I was more "role-playing" than being myself. I knew that I had no idea who I really was and that there was this "self" that I was when I was alone that I would protect from the outside world no matter the cost because it was not what I wanted people to see me as: it was selfish and insecure and petty and jealous and acutely unhappy with my life.[/quote]


Try to ask yourself the same question I asked Truth seeker to do:

[quote author=bjorn]I ask did you ever succeed in being the center of attention in a ‘good way’ having everybody’s approval. Did you still hate it then? Or did you somehow enjoy it?[/quote]

[quote author=truth seeker]No, I never liked being the center of attention. It feels awkward - even in situations when I knew that people probably weren't judging me. What I'm realizing is that I'm the one judging me![/quote]

[quote author=bjorn]Yeah, that one was to clarify more, or you demand it from others or yourself.

So I though well what if people recognize you. How do you feel then. But if you still at that moment feel awkward. Than I think it’s like you said
[/quote]

[quote author=truth seeker]What I'm realizing is that I'm the one judging me![/quote]

[quote author=bjorn]You have something to proof against yourself. Maybe some ‘false personality’ who keeps you telling that you have to show some kind of appearance all the time.[/quote]

You see there is a difference. Do you demand it from yourself, others, both? Maybe that question can give some clarification on that.



[quote author=Evolutionary1]I am trying to see how being nice and "helpful" can be another way to serve self at the expense of others.[/quote]

[quote author=bjorn]Well from my part, it’s sometimes difficult to see or that I am doing it for myself or for others. So I don't tend to leap to fast when somebody is asking for help. I am working on that.[/quote]




[quote author=bjorn]You may say to yourself which I also many times did, why can’t I just choose to be ‘myself’? But it isn’t that easy. When we become more aware of our own programs, we can in that progress choose to keep or either lose them. But only when we become AWARE, then we can choose.[/quote]

[quote author=Evolutionary1]Bjorn, I agree, and for now I am trying to put aside the program that criticizes and judges everything, at least until I have observed enough--with help Smiley--to see myself more clearly.[/quote]

Well yeah put it aside but don’t ignore it! This program will keep ‘whispering in your ear’ Like you said, just observe it.

It will be quite a difficult. I mean you can’t go back on your own programs. To which should you built on. What keeps you stable?



[quote author=pentagram13] I read a lot of people talking about the desire to be "liked" that they had or still have. I read all that has been written but I still don't understand the need to be liked very well. For me, I want to be loved; I want to be cared for, but down here on 3rd density most of us need that I think it's normal. Is that what it is meant when some of you say you wanted to be "liked" by everyone or by certain people etc...?[/quote]

There can be a huge difference in what you are implying. Our machine can have all kinds of explanations in what love may be. 2 people can say to each other that they desire to be loved but mean with it something completely else. They though that they understood each other when really the opposite can be true.



[quote author=webglider]My daughter really didn't know what to say, and finally - after many demands from the two girls - she of course said that she like the girl she had known the longest best.

So her "best friend" said: "You mean you don't like my friend."
And the other girl said something equally shame inducing, and then they both laughed and walked away.[/quote]

I still know a few of my childhood friends, with most even with the ones I just see very often, well I always have to smile when I see them and it goes both ways. Back when I was a kid as soon as the sun was up I was on the street. Like many kids.
We played soccer all day. Having a snow fight. Having adventures in the forest and being a rascal most of the time. Those memories are really the ones I cherish most deeply.

I guess there really is some kind of bond between all of us. But still there are always a few who will betray it nonetheless.

Like what happened to your daughter. Breaking a bond like that. People who do that. I think they also throw away there past. How shameful. You really are trash if you do that.

 

[davey72]

To add my viewpoint.

I wouldn’t know. Just to keep everything on the table. This story of yours can also be an excuse all together, to not confront yourself.

To round it all up, it’s there ‘sleep’ state which horrors you. You have observed others, did you also observed yourself?

You have some Social Anxiety? The problem I guess lies with you not with them.

Maybe you can ask yourself, Am I afraid that:

- Meeting new people.
- Being the center of attention.
- Being watched while doing something.
- Making small talk
- Being teased or criticized.

If you are afraid what other people may think about you than you also demand something from them.


What I don’t really understand, can you clarify what you mean by your Social Anxiety. How do you experience that?

I can totally relate to what she is saying. One thing i have noticed in the last few years is that abot 80% of people i walk by, sit on the bus across from, etc, seem to stare at me intently, and do double takes. I know there is some paranoia there, but i am not imagining the fact that people,(not just women) are always staring at me lately. I always think i have a booger on my face,er sumthin, but never do. I would never have told anyone this, if i didnt totally relate to what Truth Seeker was saying, and quoting. It reminds me of what my mother told me about this one place we lived in when i was 3. she said i would , all of a sudden, get terrified, and say that there were eyes in the window, or the door,etc. the one thing i do remember is the man in my closet every night. Oddly, she also told me that when she was pregnant, (and single), she moved into this suite with a landlord couple that reminded her of the old couple in "Rosemary's baby". They were soo nice, and eventually offered my mother ten thousand dollars for her baby(me). When she said no, they became very mean, and abusive, and basically chased her out. As she was moving out, she met the new tenant. Another young, single pregnant girl.