How Not To Be
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seek10 said:
The process is actually described in Ponerology where an individual who has succumbed to "transpersonification" as Lobaczewski called it, then find out that the "ideology" that attracted them comes at a very high price.
Sebastian Haffner also talked about "transpersonification" vis a vis the conversion of normal people to the support (or at least not opposition to) the Nazis. He called it a "nervous breakdown". See:
http://www.sott.net/article/152271-Chaos-and-Consent-The-Logistics-of-the-One-World-Government
... where, in the end, Haffner writes the following:
Interestingly, Spiral Out has written a post in another thread that perfectly fits within this discussion of "How Not to Be" and I've put in bold a few lines that apply here specifically:
Spiral Out said:
I think I need to add a couple of things to my previous post.
It is obvious that Psyche has not "gone completely South" as the followers/supporters of the Nazis did, as Sebastian Haffner described. After all, she is still here and she had fairly rapid recognition of the implications of the choice she made under System 1, subconscious influence/drivers.
There are, of course, those who leave the work in one of the ways Haffner described;
In each individual case the process of becoming a Nazi showed the unmistakable symptoms of nervous collapse.
This appears to be what was driving Psyche, and was probably a result of coming face to face with the fact that what we are doing IS threatening to the PTB in a significant enough way that they have worked from the beginning, either through third party defamers, or directly via police and Fisc investigations.
More often, however, when people leave the work it is for the following reason:
A lot of people come here because they are "seekers of truth." They just don't want TOO much truth! They know that their former ideas about reality are bogus, and they are looking to replace them with new ideas that explain everything but without any pain. Because, of course, getting relief from pain is what they are initially after. Being told that they, themselves, are mostly responsible for their pain and you have to go through it to get out of it is NOT what they want to hear. And they will do exactly like any fundamentalist in any religion, look for texts to support what makes them feel good and ignore everything that suggests otherwise.
The same person who will quote something like:
... and will completely ignore:
... including the means of overcoming the Predator's Mind:
Castaneda further explains that infants are born with a glowing coat of awareness and that this is what the predator eats, to the point where only a narrow fringe is left. This narrow fringe is sufficient to keep man alive. This narrow fringe is man's self-reflection, where man is irremediably caught. From the book: '
This is not nebulous "go off and meditate or follow a path that makes you feel good" philosophy. Don Juan makes it explicit exactly what Sorcerers understand discipline as the capacity to face with serenity odds that are not included in our expectations. For them, discipline is an art: the art of facing infinity without flinching, not because they are strong and tough but because they are filled with awe.' "Sorcerers say that discipline makes the glowing coat of awareness unpalatable to the flyer," actually means and you can read it here: http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/adventures046.htm in full. But the essential thing is:
...and:
If you read the passage from the link above, you will realize that the process he describes for passing along those steps is a lot more painful and protracted than the method Gurdjieff developed and which we employ here, to some extent.
So, it seems that the "enjoyable path with a heart" is something quite other than one would suppose.
Getting back to the matter at hand, Haffner writes at the end of the cited quote:
I think Haffner was quite bitter because, as we well know, it is the Authoritarian personality he describes, not something that is national or ethnic. He also describes a society that is hystericized by being exposed to pathological material and being led by pathological individuals of various sorts. That leads them to the practice of subconscious selection and substitution as described by Lobaczewski:
All of us have been damaged by the pathology of our culture thus it is important to learn about our machine and face petty tyrants, beginning with our own System 1 processes. That amounts to employing discipline. A person who cannot deal with the process of mirroring - which is precisely facing petty tyrants of the programmed predator's mind - cannot grow their awareness. If you can't face your own inner petty tyrant, how the heck do you think you are going to face any external petty tyrant.
But fortunately, in the system we operate with here, this can be done somewhat gradually and incrementally. Only Psyche did NOT take advantage of it.
Now she is in a situation that she does not like and she realizes, too late, what she threw away with both hands. So, what to do?
Well, obviously, face the petty tyrants within and without and turn the lemons of her new life into lemonade. She is in a situation not too far different from what Castaneda described in his chapter about Petty Tyrants, so it should be rather simple to practice the attributes of warriorship one step at a time. Three is no reason she cannot continue to do what she does best within the network, to continue her practice of self-observation, to stalk her inner predator that is formed from all the programming of her socio-cultural experiences. And if she shows the Universe that she is really DOing this - and that can only be an energy dynamic, not something you think or talk about - then it is certain that the Universe will respond by opening a door to another reality.
It is obvious that Psyche has not "gone completely South" as the followers/supporters of the Nazis did, as Sebastian Haffner described. After all, she is still here and she had fairly rapid recognition of the implications of the choice she made under System 1, subconscious influence/drivers.
There are, of course, those who leave the work in one of the ways Haffner described;
In each individual case the process of becoming a Nazi showed the unmistakable symptoms of nervous collapse.
This appears to be what was driving Psyche, and was probably a result of coming face to face with the fact that what we are doing IS threatening to the PTB in a significant enough way that they have worked from the beginning, either through third party defamers, or directly via police and Fisc investigations.
More often, however, when people leave the work it is for the following reason:
A lot of people come here because they are "seekers of truth." They just don't want TOO much truth! They know that their former ideas about reality are bogus, and they are looking to replace them with new ideas that explain everything but without any pain. Because, of course, getting relief from pain is what they are initially after. Being told that they, themselves, are mostly responsible for their pain and you have to go through it to get out of it is NOT what they want to hear. And they will do exactly like any fundamentalist in any religion, look for texts to support what makes them feel good and ignore everything that suggests otherwise.
The same person who will quote something like:
... and will completely ignore:
... including the means of overcoming the Predator's Mind:
Castaneda further explains that infants are born with a glowing coat of awareness and that this is what the predator eats, to the point where only a narrow fringe is left. This narrow fringe is sufficient to keep man alive. This narrow fringe is man's self-reflection, where man is irremediably caught. From the book: '
This is not nebulous "go off and meditate or follow a path that makes you feel good" philosophy. Don Juan makes it explicit exactly what Sorcerers understand discipline as the capacity to face with serenity odds that are not included in our expectations. For them, discipline is an art: the art of facing infinity without flinching, not because they are strong and tough but because they are filled with awe.' "Sorcerers say that discipline makes the glowing coat of awareness unpalatable to the flyer," actually means and you can read it here: http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/adventures046.htm in full. But the essential thing is:
...and:
If you read the passage from the link above, you will realize that the process he describes for passing along those steps is a lot more painful and protracted than the method Gurdjieff developed and which we employ here, to some extent.
So, it seems that the "enjoyable path with a heart" is something quite other than one would suppose.
Getting back to the matter at hand, Haffner writes at the end of the cited quote:
I think Haffner was quite bitter because, as we well know, it is the Authoritarian personality he describes, not something that is national or ethnic. He also describes a society that is hystericized by being exposed to pathological material and being led by pathological individuals of various sorts. That leads them to the practice of subconscious selection and substitution as described by Lobaczewski:
All of us have been damaged by the pathology of our culture thus it is important to learn about our machine and face petty tyrants, beginning with our own System 1 processes. That amounts to employing discipline. A person who cannot deal with the process of mirroring - which is precisely facing petty tyrants of the programmed predator's mind - cannot grow their awareness. If you can't face your own inner petty tyrant, how the heck do you think you are going to face any external petty tyrant.
But fortunately, in the system we operate with here, this can be done somewhat gradually and incrementally. Only Psyche did NOT take advantage of it.
Now she is in a situation that she does not like and she realizes, too late, what she threw away with both hands. So, what to do?
Well, obviously, face the petty tyrants within and without and turn the lemons of her new life into lemonade. She is in a situation not too far different from what Castaneda described in his chapter about Petty Tyrants, so it should be rather simple to practice the attributes of warriorship one step at a time. Three is no reason she cannot continue to do what she does best within the network, to continue her practice of self-observation, to stalk her inner predator that is formed from all the programming of her socio-cultural experiences. And if she shows the Universe that she is really DOing this - and that can only be an energy dynamic, not something you think or talk about - then it is certain that the Universe will respond by opening a door to another reality.
Perceval said:
Nothing, there was nothing horrible about the Work, but on the contrary. And that is the horrible thing.
Laura said:
I'm sorry if I came across as creepy. I wrote the above and then spent the rest of the day, part of the night and morning crying. At some point in the night I just fell asleep from the exhaustion. If you would have been that fly in my room, you would have thought that I was in terrible physical pain, only that I was not. My muscles were contracting as the tears were falling from my eyes.
The only genuine conclusion I think I may have is "I cannot think with the way I think" and even then, I know I must guard myself in using it to justify the thinking patterns that run through my head.
I have no promises to give, what you see is what you get kind of thing. I know I have to read this entire thread again and pay special attention to the quotes.
I was thinking this morning about the quote "The foreign installation comes back, I assure you, but not as strong, and a process begins in which the fleeing of the flyers' mind becomes routine, until one day it flees permanently. A sad day indeed! That's the day when you have to rely on your own devices, which are nearly zero. There's no one to tell you what to do. There's no mind of foreign origin to dictate the imbecilities you're accustomed to."
Then I thought of the quote "There is a point of no return, that point must be reached".
Then this morning you Laura posted all this quotes.
I also thought of the following one:
I thought about adding, "if you are afraid of surviving, go and read the vast literature on survivalist stuff, it is really no brainer."
I think I need a cigarette and then proceed to follow the links and quotes cited in this thread. I need to catch up with almost an entire week of unread forum posts as well.
I'm not sure how this ties into this, but I remember Haffner also describing how following the news of the war, counting e.g. the enemy casualties, pre-programmed many Germans into seeing war and cruelties as an exciting game to be played, detaching them from feeling anything for the victims. And in a sense, the ground was laid for the Nazis to take over. Some, like Haffner, eventually snapped out of it, but many did not.
Psyche, I'm wondering if you're seeing life and the Work as some sort of a game?
Just a thought, fwiw.
Psyche, I'm wondering if you're seeing life and the Work as some sort of a game?
Just a thought, fwiw.
Aragorn said:
I'm not sure what you mean. I can say that two years ago it crossed my mind that I was a Nazi doctor in a past life, or at least related to it somehow, and that I failed back then. It is too early to say why the thought crossed my mind. At least for me. Was it a predator mind maneuver? I don't know. But I sure want to learn my lessons.
Ah, I was thinking more like if you see the Work more like an intellectual and exiting game of some sort? In the past I caught myself thinking like tha from time to time. Now I know that things are a whole lot serious than in a game. The Nazi thing was just something from the book, didn't mean to imply that you'd had characteristics of them.
Added: 'intellectual and exiting'
Added: 'intellectual and exiting'
Aragorn said:
It seems to me that in my case the times the Work manifested like a "game of some sort" were the times I fooled myself into thinking I was taking it seriously. For instance, I thought that being a doctor was a serious thing for the Work and while I was preparing the test, I ended up reinforcing the lies of the usefulness of such medical knowledge. Yeah, I would study pointing the errors in the textbooks, I wanted to write notes in all of them, but in the end succumbed to the pressure of studying them in X amount of time which then brought even more uncomfortable pressure that I invested on lies.
It seems to me that while it is not necessarily about a Nazi thing, we live in a very pathological world and I am part of it as a mainstream doctor. That is a lesson.
anart
A Disturbance in the Force
Gimpy said:
Yep, it's really just more melodrama - just like this passage:
p said:
Melodrama designed to provoke pity. That's all.
The fact is that most people who have ever received an objective mirror have cried until they thought they would never stop - most of us wallow in self-pity until we learn another way to be. It's not unusual or at all noteworthy. To use that purging of tears as a pity ploy, though, is not only counterproductive, it really shows how deeply embedded your "pity mechanism" is in your personality.
I'm glad that after your dreadful night of painful tears that you are now sufficiently recovered to catch up with forum posts.
But what I want to say here is this: Everyone pretty much operates based on System 1 goals that constantly seek to relieve discomfort and achieve a feeling of control. It is totally automatic and, until a great deal of work is done, System 2 is merely the servant of System 1. That is, the horses have the bit in their teeth and the driver of the cart is asleep or drunk. What people on the outside can see is the behavior and the RESULTS without being privy to, or influenced by, the narrative/private logic. That is, in the end, why it is easier for someone who is emotionally disconnected from a situation to more accurately infer what System 1 really is after than the individual who is busy making the narrative to act as a buffer between their actions and the interpretation that could be unfavorable. It can work something like this with the Datum being System 1 and the Goal being the objective, though it is covered over with a narrative that is created to explain it:
Datum 1: Feel bad because I don't get the respect and admiration I want in my current position. ----> Goal set: Move to Spain and work at hospital in ER. ER doctors get respect and admiration.
which leads to:
Datum 2: Would feel bad if my motives are questioned and I'm not supported. ----> Goal set: Convince self and others of good motives and being deserving of support.
which leads to:
Datum 3: Would feel bad if I look bad for leaving everyone and that would burn bridges that could be useful initially and later. ---> Goal set: Take Mr. Scott along as a bridge and extra support - at least temporarily.
which leads to:
Datum 4: Feel bad because my motives are being questioned. ----> Goal set: Continue on path but agree with whatever is said so that bad feelings go away and regain respect and admiration.
Actually, having said that, I think there is another datum and goal that may override all others:
Datum 5: I'm in a relationship with Mr. Scott and I find that he doesn't excite me the way I want to be excited but if I dump him, people will think that I engaged in the relationship just to get to the Chateau, I'll lose admiration, respect, financial support etc. ----> Goal set: Create reasons to move to Spain, but do so in such a way that I continue to receive support. Make it look like I want Mr. Scott to come too, but make sure things are arranged to that I can ease out of the relationship by absence. Who knows? I may meet someone who excites me and will give me the support I want/need and that will change everything.
Then:
Datum 6: I'm in Spain and find I've jumped out of the frying pan into the fire. ---> Goal set: Get active on the forum to fish for support, admiration, respect, and possibly another juicy Knight in Armor to save me.
But what I want to say here is this: Everyone pretty much operates based on System 1 goals that constantly seek to relieve discomfort and achieve a feeling of control. It is totally automatic and, until a great deal of work is done, System 2 is merely the servant of System 1. That is, the horses have the bit in their teeth and the driver of the cart is asleep or drunk. What people on the outside can see is the behavior and the RESULTS without being privy to, or influenced by, the narrative/private logic. That is, in the end, why it is easier for someone who is emotionally disconnected from a situation to more accurately infer what System 1 really is after than the individual who is busy making the narrative to act as a buffer between their actions and the interpretation that could be unfavorable. It can work something like this with the Datum being System 1 and the Goal being the objective, though it is covered over with a narrative that is created to explain it:
Datum 1: Feel bad because I don't get the respect and admiration I want in my current position. ----> Goal set: Move to Spain and work at hospital in ER. ER doctors get respect and admiration.
which leads to:
Datum 2: Would feel bad if my motives are questioned and I'm not supported. ----> Goal set: Convince self and others of good motives and being deserving of support.
which leads to:
Datum 3: Would feel bad if I look bad for leaving everyone and that would burn bridges that could be useful initially and later. ---> Goal set: Take Mr. Scott along as a bridge and extra support - at least temporarily.
which leads to:
Datum 4: Feel bad because my motives are being questioned. ----> Goal set: Continue on path but agree with whatever is said so that bad feelings go away and regain respect and admiration.
Actually, having said that, I think there is another datum and goal that may override all others:
Datum 5: I'm in a relationship with Mr. Scott and I find that he doesn't excite me the way I want to be excited but if I dump him, people will think that I engaged in the relationship just to get to the Chateau, I'll lose admiration, respect, financial support etc. ----> Goal set: Create reasons to move to Spain, but do so in such a way that I continue to receive support. Make it look like I want Mr. Scott to come too, but make sure things are arranged to that I can ease out of the relationship by absence. Who knows? I may meet someone who excites me and will give me the support I want/need and that will change everything.
Then:
Datum 6: I'm in Spain and find I've jumped out of the frying pan into the fire. ---> Goal set: Get active on the forum to fish for support, admiration, respect, and possibly another juicy Knight in Armor to save me.
Laura said:
I don't know of what else I'm capable. I didn't brought it up, in my mind I rationalized it as "must not bring up Mr.Scott up because you must protect him, this is after all the public forum".
If all these feelings and thoughts are part of it, then yes, there seems to be a hell lot more to it.
I was not really colinear but I wanted so badly a Knight in Shining Armor that would save me all the work to do things for myself. How is that for an aim? With time I realized that things were certainly more difficult than I thought it would be. Worse, that meant that I didn't love anyone, much less Mr. Scott, but only myself. He was the last screen I had to really face myself and how dare it was taken from me?!
All this time I have shown only regard to myself for self-preservation purposes?! This is the sort of person I am? Yes, it seems like it.