HOW THE SOUL CHOOSES HIS PARENTS FOR reincarnate?

Thanks for comments guys.

I can see now that my statement to Obyvatel was more of a demand born out of frustration, so apologies to him/her.

I'll need to be more vigilant with myself in the future to watch I don't slip into this mode again.

Anyway, all is lessons, and what better place to learn eh. Besides, a good sharp knock-back does wonders for the ego now and again.

Oh, and apologies to Kisito for having your thread completely hijacked!
 
electrosonic said:
Thanks for comments guys.

I can see now that my statement to Obyvatel was more of a demand born out of frustration, so apologies to him/her.

I'll need to be more vigilant with myself in the future to watch I don't slip into this mode again.

Anyway, all is lessons, and what better place to learn eh. Besides, a good sharp knock-back does wonders for the ego now and again.

Oh, and apologies to Kisito for having your thread completely hijacked!
Electrosonic hijacked is very nice, I read you all carefully, sometimes I do not answer, because I do not have an answer and my English is bad. Your short dialogue with obyvatel was abounding. I felt in the head of obyvatel and in yours, I took a lesson and I hope it will improve. And it seemed to me that the ego remains for us the heart of our misunderstandings. I do not think it's a simple matter of courtesy or syntax, but as explained in another thread, we may begin to be connected by common chakras, and we begin to see the first intention (feeling) of each and the other by decreasing the need of writing and speech. Some may just see the suseptibilité, but it seems to me that this is primarily a telepathic communication. It seems to me that we must work on our first intention (feeling), not just the writings and words that are veiled and face distortion of propriety and politeness.
 
In fact, seeing as how Kisito took the time to post, and Obyvatel took the time to answer, it seems an injustice not to bring the thread back to the original subject ...

So, back to the comment Obyvatel posted about 'Mouravieff's (the film of life is replayed over and over by default)' concept - personally, this idea doesn't resonate well with me at all.
Logically, I don't see the benefit of replaying the exact same life, with the exact same script, over again, as it seems sure that given the same game parameters, you'll only make the exact same mistakes/conclusions. (especially given the amnesiac state required each time we come back).

Maybe what happens is that the film script (and acting credits) get reviewed in 5D - each lesson reviewed in detail - and a subsequent incarnation with 'tweaked' film script parameters gets set in motion to elicit a different outcome?
This may be a life in a different body, with a different environment/time-frame, specifically designed to aid that particular learning process that was lacking from the last life?
And this tweaking process gets done between each life, to assist in the particular issues the soul/consciousness is trying to work through in each incarnation.

I do believe that without a greater knowledge of the incarnational cycles of souls v's 'partially developed souls' we're probably all going to be way off the mark in how this process is conducted. Add to that our 3D restrictive thinking & we're probably only capable of seeing the tip of the iceberg, as it were.

What if the real 'I' is actually the Higher Group Soul - and this group soul as a complete unit, is a combination of all the incarnations that stemmed from its consciousness - and only when all these consciousness units are returned back to the whole, we truly become our real 'I'?
So maybe, we are all just a small fragment of a larger soul unit, and it actually this larger group soul that's learning the lessons?
And with this in mind, it tailors each incarnational cycle to suit is desired learning requirements, by sending a fragment of its consciousness down to 3D in order to bring back the gained knowledge/lesson? (i.e us)
And that in turn, this Group Higher Soul is only a fragment of another complete Higher Soul unit, at a level above, and so on?

All that may well be totally out of left field to you all, but its the place where I'm currently at.
 
electrosonic said:
I do believe that without a greater knowledge of the incarnational cycles of souls v's 'partially developed souls' we're probably all going to be way off the mark in how this process is conducted. Add to that our 3D restrictive thinking & we're probably only capable of seeing the tip of the iceberg, as it were.

That's most likely the way it is. We don't have very much data to work with so we naturally try to fill in the gaps with speculations and guesses.

Since so many of us wanted to be here for the 'Grand Finale' it looks like space for all of us with 'prime' bodies for us to occupy is rather limited, so as a result the C's have mentioned to us: "sometimes you have to take what you can get"!
 
[quote author=electrosonic]
So, back to the comment Obyvatel posted about 'Mouravieff's (the film of life is replayed over and over by default)' concept - personally, this idea doesn't resonate well with me at all.
Logically, I don't see the benefit of replaying the exact same life, with the exact same script, over again, as it seems sure that given the same game parameters, you'll only make the exact same mistakes/conclusions. (especially given the amnesiac state required each time we come back).
[/quote]

Perhaps a question to contemplate is "who benefits" from the situation Mouravieff describes, assuming it is valid? Then try to think "how" such a situation could come to pass, keeping in mind the allegorical tale of the "evil magician".

It is not easy to come to terms with what G and M were saying. It goes not only against cultural conditioning that affects us as fish in water, but also there is instinctive denial because if this were true, the picture is dark. So the common human reaction, even after being exposed to such information, is often to file it away in some corner, compartmentalizing it, without making connections between that information and other aspects of the human existence, like the question of soul.
 
I think the film analogy is very accurate. It is depressing, but it's the truth. After reading the 4th way material and having a few years to cogitate on it and observe, I've been pretty much convinced. Think of the average person's life. You're born, you go to some type of school, you find a mate, have kids, work until you die, and then do it all over again. You can do that thousands of times in dozens of different ways and never go anywhere. Sure there are probably variations on it depending on your "type" and personal preference, but the General Law likes this particular type of film because it keeps everyone in their place and the system keeps going. Look at history, it is clearly a "film." There are a lot of "spinoffs," the scenery changes and some of the characters, but it's the same story over and over again. Taking into account the whole OP/preadamic situation, I don't think a soul who is new to 3D has much in the way of choice or individuation, but is very gradually exposed to these higher energies through the endless repetition of the film. After a certain number of repetitions, a soul may have a dim impulse to choose something different, and then that's when lesson planning in 5D comes more into play. Maybe after you get far enough in the Work, the life review stage may become detailed enough that you acquire a sort of a "mission" for the last few lifetimes.

Also, I don't recall Mouravieff saying it was the exact same life over and over again, I do remember him saying that the General Law allows for a wide range of experiences as long as none of them really challenge the matrix or lead to any true evolution. The film is not carbon copied, but the general dynamic is always the same. I agree, and I think Mouravieff agrees that after you gain a certain degree of individuation, you can tweak the film to give you more of the types of experiences that you want, but you're still more or less beholden to the overall cycle, until in the course of one of these films, you stumble across something resembling the Work which gives you an aim. If you decide to follow the Path of Access, that has already built something of an attractor in you where the higher level lessons such as STS and STO, graduation to 4D, and cyclical time start to have some relevance to you. Until you have the beginnings of an aim to evolve, I don't think there is a whole lot for you and your guides to discuss in 5D. Before that point, they may drop little "hints" to give you perspective on things, but you have be able to make the choice to learn for yourself. I think Laura's development up to and after contacting the Cassiopaeans is a good 3rd density analog to this multi incarnational process. After you have something of an aim, you can modify the film to take you closer and closer to the Way with each successive lifetime. It is not a linear process, you kind of spiral towards it, because you are subject to the Law of Seven until you can create conscious shocks and you go back under the veil of forgetting each time, but I think each time you reincarnate something is preserved that makes it easier to get a little bit farther the next time around. So that's my theory of human evolution. It starts out purely mechanical, and gradually gets more and more conscious until you make it to the third threshold, which takes many lives. Each time you are still subject to the "film" but it has less of a hold on you because the experiences carry over from previous lifetimes and you can make the choices necessary to get you on the Staircase much more quickly.

In addition, I don't think that Gurdjieff and Mouravieff had any idea that the General Law is coopted by 4D STS. Casteneda seems to have some awareness, but I'm not sure if he really understood it at that level either. I can understand why the General Law is necessary to maintain the balance of an ecosystem when none of the souls are advanced enough to make good decisions, but I'm amazed at how difficult it is to progress once you decide to go off in your own direction. It seems that if the universe wants you to evolve, there wouldn't be so many stumbling blocks and dirty tricks that come up and try to keep you down. The only way I can reconcile that in my mind, is that the Lizzies, being 4D, have been given some liberty to tinker around with these lower level cosmic laws, and the General Law has been modified to make sure their energy farm continues to operate at peak efficiency. So the influence of 4D STS makes the whole phenomenon of the film much more difficult and confining, I think. We are food for the moon.

As far as the Real I, my personal speculation on it is that the definition changes depending on what density you're on. In 3D, the work is to build the Real I in the organism, so that your mind/body/spirit complex has one consistent will and not shifting personalities that appear under different circumstances. In 4D, I think the work is to build the Real I across all of the various versions of yourself in parallel dimensions/timelines. You perceive your unity with all of these Is, some STS and some STO. I don't know if this work is completed in 4D, the Cassiopaeans have spoken of souls whose native level of density is 5th, so perhaps this is something that is started in 4D and perfected during a long cycle in 5th that happens after 4th and before 6th. Nevertheless, this is how you become the 6D STO being, which is perfectly balanced with STS reflections, because it has integrated all of the various versions of itself into one consciousness, both the sacred and the profane. I think the work on 6D is to build a Real I with your soul group/social memory complex, beings that are similar to you but different, and then on 7D all of the soul groups merge into the Absolute, the I of the universe.
 
Logically, I don't see the benefit of replaying the exact same life, with the exact same script, over again, as it seems sure that given the same game parameters, you'll only make the exact same mistakes/conclusions

I agree if this applies to someone who is not aware of the work and information here but for you i see the benefit.

The book Strange Life of Ivan Osokin by P.D Ouspensky talks about this topic...

"The final chapter's description of the shocking realization of the mechanical nature of existence, its consequences, and the possibility/responsibility of working in an esoteric school."

"He discovers that because human choices tend to be mechanical, changing the outcome of one's actions is extremely difficult. He realizes that without help breaking his mechanical behavior, he may be doomed to repeat the same mistakes forever."

"Acceptance of personal accountability is necessary in order to effect an increase in the degree of freedom of the individual."

I read in one of G's writing long ago something like - Objective truth/Knowledge is a "material" - in the universe there is only so much "material" to go around like anything else. There isn't enough for everyone so you above quote does have a benefit - its natural to keep in the same path for organic life the universe to keep going.
 
Menna said:
I read in one of G's writing long ago something like - Objective truth/Knowledge is a "material" - in the universe there is only so much "material" to go around like anything else. There isn't enough for everyone so you above quote does have a benefit - its natural to keep in the same path for organic life the universe to keep going.
I wonder if that's really true or it's just a "twist" based on the idea that a planet needs a certain degree of mechanical laws to maintain its ecosystem at the lowest levels, so the esoteric knowledge is not available to all at the same time. It seems if this was an STO planet, such knowledge would be available to all of the souled "Adamics" and they could all potentially graduate, while the "Preadamics"/OPs could gain access to the higher centers by being put on the step behind the Adamics who graduated and help direct their society. Since this is an STS planet that is being factory farmed, such knowledge is hidden and made as difficult to assimilate as possible because it would potentially impact the "profitability" of the operation for our 4D masters. I just personally find it difficult to believe that in a universe with infinite diversity and unlimited possibilities, that Truth is a scarce commodity that must be carefully rationed. Yes, there's a kernel of truth there, but I think a lot of this "scarcity" is artificially imposed from above.
 
I mis spoke when I said universe I should of said here on Earth. Like anything else IMO its a resource. Also the value of people repeating the same life over and over again enables those who want to do "The Work" and break free from the general law the ability to do so while organic life and the world keeps spinning. All the talk about STO planet and what could be leads me to say...ok...I dunno if you change one thing others are changed its tough to connect knowledge that is learned based on principals applied in this reality and then make connections of what if things were this way. You can always surmise that what is applicable here is applicable if this changed but everything else stays the same. I have lessened the amount of surmising I have done in the work and I feel it has left me with more energy. This is just my experience people can obviously do what they want.
 
Richard S said:
electrosonic said:
I do believe that without a greater knowledge of the incarnational cycles of souls v's 'partially developed souls' we're probably all going to be way off the mark in how this process is conducted. Add to that our 3D restrictive thinking & we're probably only capable of seeing the tip of the iceberg, as it were.

That's most likely the way it is. We don't have very much data to work with so we naturally try to fill in the gaps with speculations and guesses.

Since so many of us wanted to be here for the 'Grand Finale' it looks like space for all of us with 'prime' bodies for us to occupy is rather limited, so as a result the C's have mentioned to us: "sometimes you have to take what you can get"!

We do have data. It just is not so accessible. The data is equal to the number of times you have incarnated in the past 309000 years. And what interest would a person have in the grand finale if they had not struggled for numerous lifetimes on this 3D STS plane?
 
electrosonic said:
In fact, seeing as how Kisito took the time to post, and Obyvatel took the time to answer, it seems an injustice not to bring the thread back to the original subject ...

So, back to the comment Obyvatel posted about 'Mouravieff's (the film of life is replayed over and over by default)' concept - personally, this idea doesn't resonate well with me at all.
Logically, I don't see the benefit of replaying the exact same life, with the exact same script, over again, as it seems sure that given the same game parameters, you'll only make the exact same mistakes/conclusions. (especially given the amnesiac state required each time we come back).

Maybe what happens is that the film script (and acting credits) get reviewed in 5D - each lesson reviewed in detail - and a subsequent incarnation with 'tweaked' film script parameters gets set in motion to elicit a different outcome?
This may be a life in a different body, with a different environment/time-frame, specifically designed to aid that particular learning process that was lacking from the last life?
And this tweaking process gets done between each life, to assist in the particular issues the soul/consciousness is trying to work through in each incarnation.

I do believe that without a greater knowledge of the incarnational cycles of souls v's 'partially developed souls' we're probably all going to be way off the mark in how this process is conducted. Add to that our 3D restrictive thinking & we're probably only capable of seeing the tip of the iceberg, as it were.

All this pretty much rings true for me too. It feels like there is some logical inconsistency with the film concept. If it is an endless stream of re-runs, how did we get stuck in this series in the first place? Who is the screen writer? I would think that there has to be a reason or cause for the particular script. Karma? Why don't we all have the same script? 6 billion unique scripts and yet all repeating? What about the overlap of lifetimes? What if somebody waits a long time to reincarnate? What if you travel through time? What about all the missing people from the script who actually attain the second birth? Was I always born in 1950? What about those past life memories in other ages? The Ceasar/Jesus soul incarnated 1000 times as Caesar? I thought he was Socrates too according to the C's. The film script concept is just so limiting and full of holes.

I do agree the lessons have to be learned and an unlearned lesson will repeat until we 'get it'. Mouravieff missed the boat on a lot of stuff. I don't not believe it because it sucks. I usually embrace the suckage, but the film concept just feels, "off" to me too.
 
Neil said:
Also, I don't recall Mouravieff saying it was the exact same life over and over again, I do remember him saying that the General Law allows for a wide range of experiences as long as none of them really challenge the matrix or lead to any true evolution. The film is not carbon copied, but the general dynamic is always the same.

OK, I gotcha - kind of like a series of templates. That's more like what it seems to me.

Neil said:
In addition, I don't think that Gurdjieff and Mouravieff had any idea that the General Law is coopted by 4D STS. Casteneda seems to have some awareness, but I'm not sure if he really understood it at that level either. I can understand why the General Law is necessary to maintain the balance of an ecosystem when none of the souls are advanced enough to make good decisions, but I'm amazed at how difficult it is to progress once you decide to go off in your own direction. It seems that if the universe wants you to evolve, there wouldn't be so many stumbling blocks and dirty tricks that come up and try to keep you down. The only way I can reconcile that in my mind, is that the Lizzies, being 4D, have been given some liberty to tinker around with these lower level cosmic laws, and the General Law has been modified to make sure their energy farm continues to operate at peak efficiency. So the influence of 4D STS makes the whole phenomenon of the film much more difficult and confining, I think. We are food for the moon.

I view the general law as the water in our fish bowl. Maybe it includes the fish bowl too. It is there. We are swimming in it. The 4D STS are gradually adding salt water and we are fresh water fish. Or maybe the general law is like the playing field and rules of a ball game.

Now...if we can just learn how to play Calvinball. (hope that isn't too obscure of a reference: Watterson, a great American philosopher) My mind took a sharp left turn there.

This might be one of those "You had to be there" type of remarks. My apologies if that is true. I was trying to lighten things up a bit. Silly, I know.

Here is from Wiki:

"Calvinball is a game invented by Calvin in which you make the rules up as you go along. Rules cannot be used twice (except for the rule that rules cannot be used twice). No Calvinball game is like another." etc. (from Calvin and Hobbes)

I suppose I am likening Calvinball to the law of exception.

Yes, we are all slaving under the general law. But hey, at some point, one of the lessons might be that you will never learn enough lessons! Yes, we are chained by so many things. Yes we have to learn the nature of the chains and why we are chained here. But, are we ready to quit embracing our chains? As G said, more and more mankind loves and is even proud of his slavery. Theoretically we are on the cusp of the possibility of walking away from the crap table. (ironic and possibly humorous Las Vegas gambling addiction analogy)

Is it possible that the 4th way, if held as a rigid obsession, can be an impediment to the possibilities the 4th way exists to offer?

I don't mean to be flippant. I aim to be encouraging. When I was a young man, and kind of depressed and complaining, a wise man once told me: "No rest for the wicked and the pure of heart don't need any." I have never forgotten that. It was a 'thanks, I needed that' sort of moment for me.
 
Speaking non-theoretically, I think the whole film aspect is a repeat of themes. If you are someone caught in certain programs, you are doomed to replay the same patterns. I've personally noticed some themes in my life that repeat. Overcoming such patterns requires alot as they push you against what you are used to.

I can imagine that in a new life, new world, I'll probably choose conditions that will replay the same themes until they have been learnt. I think they are learnt when you no longer feel constricted by them, when you don't repeat the patterns.
 
Thinking about the film analogy made me think about fractal analogy.
If, in universe, everything is of fractal nature, the bigger questions about reincarnation and soul choosing can be viewed through the prism of this life, how we learn and progress here now .. living this life. And all repeating themes of our life are archetypes which are common for us all. In glossary they are defined as universal ideas or principles which can be applied generally for all people but with infinite varieties.
I can see why it could be possible to return many times and have the same life like in story about Ivan Osokin, until we choose other ways of being ‘alive’ …
It seems true that without repeating, we do not learn. Both Mourafiev and C’s, if I remember correctly, have said the same thing: What we have here is rapid learning, in opposition to the slow learning process on higher densities where everything is more ‘relaxed’. Thinking about the fact that we choose to come here, and who know how many times return … makes me wonder why we chose STS environment? But maybe … to be in such risky STS environment, and yet longing to become STO, well isn't it an excellent ‘playfield’!
The grand scheme, the ‘bigger fractals’ we are part of, are maybe inaccessible to our understanding. But look how we can observe ourselves and others, small fractal units of grand scheme, infinite varieties of living beings here around us. This place is so rich, like a small-package universe.
Only .. there is that word, that uncomfortable word - “the experiment” , which always shakes my view on everything .. That on this planet there is some ‘specific situation’, some extraordinary situation, which is not usual or typical, and then I think – maybe no previous concepts could be applied, because here is some bizarre play in work, with maybe unexpected outcomes …
I apologize if off topic, I am still learning how to write (on the forum).
 
I was reading Wave 8 (Debugging the Universe) today and, in relation to the general thread topic, there was a session when the C's mentioned about events occurring depending on an individuals "lesson profile" or whatever. So, I'm guessing the soul that we have, that sees and knows a lot more than us, chose certain parents to be "brought up by" because they could see the lessons that would ultimately come from this upbringing or family.

Q: (P) Okay, let's say that I have a little child who is dying of leukemia, and I am praying with everything in me, and the child dies anyway. I don't get it. What's the deal here?

A: Wrong. If the child dies, that is your lesson profile

and going from what the C's constantly reminded us of "all there is is lessons, this is all just one big school" - then I'm thinking the soul KNEW where we'd end up, what lessons we'd sort of go through, and for these lessons to manifest, the soul "chose" these parents. But, not the parents in particular, just the path. IMO
 
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