How to 'feed' yourself

[T.C.]

One of the earliest questions that formed in me when I first started to become acquainted with the Cassiopaean Material was, "If we're part of a control system that is rooted in the practice of feeding off others, then in order to detach from that control system, we have to stop feeding off others. But since it is said that STO beings feed each other, then there MUST be a fundamental need for feeding. Since we're not really in contact with STO beings, and aren't STO ourselves, then... How Do We Feed Ourselves?

This food for the self might also be described as "Soul Food". What are we asking for from the Divine Cosmic Mind when we say, "Be my daily bread as I give bread to others"? Personally, I've always thought of that as being more about knowledge - "Give me the knowledge I need in order to operate so that I can be of use to you." I think I was wrong - or at least, the devil is in the details.

I spent a long time away from the forum. Then, last March, I decided due to work commitments that I needed to get back on the diet, cut out gluten and dairy etc. After two months, I had a kind of awakening that forced me to change my whole life. I was accepted back to the forum (with open, loving arms!) and for many, many months I was what I now term, "At my best".

I had my revived ideals and principles and used these to formulate a daily to-do list that directed me in self/life-improvement. I would wake early, and study. Then I would work long hours in my job. Then I'd get home and study more. Then, I'd go to bed and repeat the next day. My diet was as perfect as my knowledge base (through the literature and experimentation) would allow for. I had a will of iron, unlimited motivation and with all of the above, a joy, gratitude and love towards myself, the Universe and the existence of both.

But as the close of last year drew in, something changed. Things started getting a little tougher. My will power was beginning to wane; I was becoming more stressed; I was starting to crave treat-like foods; I found it that little bit more difficult to get out of bed in the mornings; I couldn't read as much and when I did, couldn't concentrate as well on what I was reading and couldn't take it in as clearly. I started to ask, "What is wrong with me? What's changed? What's different?"

These last couple of months have been pretty hard. I feel like last year, I pushed a huge boulder to the top of a hill and the last two months, the boulder and I went rolling back down to the bottom again. Well, I pushed it up there last year, right? So I can do it again, right?

WRONG.

For all the different things I've tried, all the journalling I've done; for all I've contemplated, for all I've searched and asked, "What's changed? What's different? Why can't I do what I was doing before", all I've got back is the echo of my words from an abyssal void.

Was I lonely? I moved into my own place in October last year. Maybe it was a lack of human contact?

No. Even though I was in a houseshare last year, I didn't have any more contact than I do now. And in terms of socialising, I actually saw my friends a lot less often than I do now, and I was fine - I was the best I've ever been.

Was it workplace stress? It's true that throughout this time I've increased my hours at the music school where I teach. And there has been something about being there and working there that I've started to not like. But, the actual work itself - I mean, when I'm actually engaged with my students - I LOVE; and I'm very happy while I'm doing it. So, if there was something about the place that I'm not quite enjoying, I couldn't really put my finger on what it was. I'll return to this soon.

Was it the iodine? Well, I think it may have acted as a catalyst for what I've gone through over the last couple of months, but if it did anything at all, I think it's just speeded up a process that I needed to go through - speeded up a self-analysis and realisation I had to figure out.

Was it becoming more and more involved with the group? Maybe I'd been feeling a self-created pressure in terms of my relationship with the group; that the longer I've been back, the more I've felt I had to live up to some kind of (imagined) expectation of what a group member should be like. Well, yes and no - I'll return to this, too.

For the last week, I've speculated that the problem is that I've been living my life according to a list that was founded on originally authentic and important ideals and principles based on real feelings, but that as I'd been living my life by this list, I'd lost the original meaning of it and had ended up just going through the motions in an automatic way. I've kinda been experimenting with the idea that I've lost connection to my feelings, and there is truth in that; that my thoughts had become like a parent, telling me what I should do for my own good, but not involving my feelings in it, said feelings then rebelling via a kind of depression.

This was close - very close, but it wasn't my feelings, in isolation, that I wasn't involving in my life anymore...

Today, I've hit upon something that may explain everything.

It was ME.

When I came back, I had become a conscious egoist, in Gurdjieff's terms. Everything I did, I was doing for ME. Even if I was working on something for the group, I was still doing it for me, for my benefit. If I was reading, I was reading for my benefit. If I was on the diet, it was for my benefit, to get myself healthy. Etc., etc., etc.

The longer I've been back, the more I've taken on the idea that "Everything I'm doing is for the group. The only reason I exist is to help the group." So that, even if I was doing something such as ironing my clothes, the motivation was, "I'm doing this because it's what a responsible group member should do."

Now, this is a trait that is very deeply conditioned in me. I was raised by a mother who taught me from day one that the only reason I exist is for HER, and so I was not important, I did not count and really, I didn't exist; that everything I did and was, was in reference to her. And our relationship was always a textbook feeding dynamic. The bolded part is also how my other relationships with women have played out.

Here's the kicker: I'm sure we can all agree that to feed off others is a selfish thing to do, but you know what, as selfish as it is, it ISN'T a self-focused thing to do - it's actually an other-focused thing to do. This is backed up by the fact that others have to allow us to feed off of them, so it's what they're asking for through THEIR actions and mode of being. By feeding off someone, we're actually doing something for them at the expense of our souls.

So we have this idea of being other-focused. When we're focused on others, even with the best intentions (I want to exist only to help others) we're neglecting our very selves. I recently began using food to self-medicate, self-comfort and self-soothe. I now realise it was because it was something that I could give to MYSELF without in any way being able to interpret it as doing something for someone else. And it was never hunger-driven; it was always emotionally driven. The emotional message has been, "Here I am! Notice ME! Do something for ME! Give something to ME! FEED ME!!"

"What's wrong with me? What's changed? What's been different compared to how I was last year?"

I had found self-love, last year. My life had become a reflection of that self-love. My life had become my gift to myself. Now, over the last few months, I tried to take that gift and give it to others first, instead, and I stopped actively loving myself - my life actions, even though they were exactly the same as they had been, were negating my existence rather than affirming it.

Another way this has reflected in my life experience: I said I'd come back to the subject of my job. Well, when I started there, the owners of the place were away at their home in Bulgaria where they spend six months of the year. They'd left the place to the care of their son, and he just let everything tick along under its own steam. Now, this meant that many things that should have been done, didn't get done, but for me it was great because being self-employed, I'm used to being my own boss and my attitude towards the place was that it's just another building where I go and teach. But since the owners came back, they've had to engage with straightening the place out, which also involves a kind of meddling in what I do and how I operate, and so what did I do? I changed my attitude towards the place. No longer was I going there for me, to do my work, under my own direction; I began going there for them, to work for them rather than working for myself. This explains why when I'm actually engaged in the teaching, I'm fine and I love it, but when away from there, there is a "spoiled" flavour to it, a reluctance to take on any more hours and a general dis-ease about having to go back there every day.

So, how do you feed yourself? You live your life primarily for you. Your motivations have to be for yourself. If you're doing the diet because the rest of the group are, then your emotional part won't get the message that this is for YOUR good. If you're doing your job for your boss rather than for yourself, then you'll resent having to go into work - for them - every day. If you're spending an hour a day reading sott because you've got the belief that you have to push yourself to learn about and keep up with what's going on in the world - because that's what the other members of the forum do - then your brain will not be receptive, it'll become defensive and you just won't be able to take in the information. If your drive to get out of bed in the morning is so you can serve others by serving others, excluding your existence then you'll hit the snooze button and roll back over.

Gurdjieff said: "In order to help others, one must first learn to be an egoist, a conscious egoist."

Egoist definition = One devoted to one's own interests and advancement.

I.E., someone who is doing The Work.

Live for yourself, do what you want to do FOR YOU, and the skills you develop and the life situation you get yourself into and the motivation you've got and the drive to do better and be better and look after yourself etc., etc., will become the things you can give to others and use to help others, when asked.

This is how you feed yourself. You DO what you do FOR YOU. Because what is feeding another other than doing something for them, either literally or figuratively?

 

[luc]

Hi T.C.,

This is a wonderful post, thank you

Indeed, I think we tend to forget that the Cs defined STO as "Serving oneself by serving others", in other words: there is still "feeding", but it's in a circle as opposed to a pyramid. We feed ourselves by feeding others, i.e. giving to others. But we also have to accept that we are "fed" in return, and acknowledge that we need it, and accept this gift from the universe. I think this is also one meaning of "be my daily bread, as I give bread to others" - we strive towards being fed by the universe, or "the circle", as opposed to stealing food from others.

In other words, "feeding ourselves" is still a valid motivation! What matters are the details: do we just "stuff" it into us, only for it to be robbed by other STS players unbeknownst to us? Or do we strive to nurture ourselves in a healthy way, by "looking outwards" - i.e. feeding ourselves so that we can give to others, which then comes back in a circle in unexpected ways?

As a practical example, I noticed a change in me over the last years - at the beginning, I was just "absorbing" the knowledge here and on sott, in a kind of selfish way - I want to learn, I want to know, I want to be safe etc. But with the application of the knowledge, things started to click more and more, and I changed to the point where nowadays, whenever I read something interesting or stumble upon something, think I have an insight or whatever, I feel an almost overwhelming urge to share. It's as if I just can't "stuff it in there" anymore, it wants out, it wants to re-join the circle! And for this, I hardly need any willpower, because the urge is so strong that I will just do it - no to-do-list needed. And that way, it feels right - both for me, and hopefully for others.

It's not that simple of course and the devil is in the details, but it's something I noticed. So I agree with what you wrote, that oftentimes it's not a good idea to think in terms of "I should do this" - yes, some of us need to work on our discipline and willpower (I know I do), but that's only one part. Perhaps more important is to follow our "curiosity in its pure form" (paraphrasing the Cs), which is essential if we want to really understand the knowledge we gather on a deep level. Only if we know on a practical level that it is helpful, and how it is applied to be helpful, can we give it back to others/"the circle". And I think we cannot really get there only by crossing out items on a to-do-list.
FWIW

 

[bjorb]

Hi TC

[quote author= TC]"If we're part of a control system that is rooted in the practice of feeding off others, then in order to detach from that control system, we have to stop feeding off others. But since it is said that STO beings feed each other, then there MUST be a fundamental need for feeding. Since we're not really in contact with STO beings, and aren't STO ourselves, then... How Do We Feed Ourselves?[/quote]

[quote author=December 10, 1994 ]Q: (T) Okay, and you said that the Lizzies feed on the negative energy?
A: Yes.
Q: (T) Who feeds on the positive energy?
A: You do.
Q: (T) How do we feed on the positive energy?
A: Progression toward union with the one, I.E. level 7.
Q: (L) In other words, you fuel your own generator instead of fueling someone else's. (T) You are at level 6, what do you feed on?
A: You have the wrong concept. We give to others and receive from others of the STO. We feed each other.
Q: (L) So, by feeding each other you move forward and grow but those of the STS path do not feed each other so must feed off of others. T) Now, you are talking to us now. This is considered STO?
A: Yes.
[/quote]



[quote author=TC]Gurdjieff said: "In order to help others, one must first learn to be an egoist, a conscious egoist."[/quote]

This can also be interpreted as : In order to help others, we must first be able to help ourselves. That implies recognizing our own needs.

To much ''spiritual work'' is devoted about ignoring our own feelings and desires for the sake of ''sacrifice'' for playing out an act of service.

True spiritual work is about figuring out and understanding our self-fish desires while trying to overcome it. Ignoring or shutting those desires out is not working on ourselves. That’s why I think that Gurdjieff made it clear that we should be fully conscious of our own egoist.

 

[Nienna]

Hi TC

[quote author= TC]"If we're part of a control system that is rooted in the practice of feeding off others, then in order to detach from that control system, we have to stop feeding off others. But since it is said that STO beings feed each other, then there MUST be a fundamental need for feeding. Since we're not really in contact with STO beings, and aren't STO ourselves, then... How Do We Feed Ourselves?

[quote author=December 10, 1994 ]Q: (T) Okay, and you said that the Lizzies feed on the negative energy?
A: Yes.
Q: (T) Who feeds on the positive energy?
A: You do.
Q: (T) How do we feed on the positive energy?
A: Progression toward union with the one, I.E. level 7.
Q: (L) In other words, you fuel your own generator instead of fueling someone else's. (T) You are at level 6, what do you feed on?
A: You have the wrong concept. We give to others and receive from others of the STO. We feed each other.
Q: (L) So, by feeding each other you move forward and grow but those of the STS path do not feed each other so must feed off of others. T) Now, you are talking to us now. This is considered STO?
A: Yes.
[/quote]



[quote author=TC]Gurdjieff said: "In order to help others, one must first learn to be an egoist, a conscious egoist."[/quote]

This can also be interpreted as : In order to help others, we must first be able to help ourselves. That implies recognizing our own needs.

To much ''spiritual work'' is devoted about ignoring our own feelings and desires for the sake of ''sacrifice'' for playing out an act of service.

True spiritual work is about figuring out and understanding our self-fish desires while trying to overcome it. Ignoring or shutting those desires out is not working on ourselves. That’s why I think that Gurdjieff made it clear that we should be fully conscious of our own egoist.
[/quote]

To expand on this needing to do things for ourselves first in order to help others, it's been said in psychology books, and elsewhere on the forum that we first need to love ourselves in order to love others. After all, we have to have something to give in order to give it.

 

[bjorb]

[quote author= Nienna]To expand on this needing to do things for ourselves first in order to help others, it's been said in psychology books, and elsewhere on the forum that we first need to love ourselves in order to love others. After all, we have to have something to give in order to give it[/quote]

Yes, also : if you don’t love yourself you may attempt to fill it up through narcissism.


- I think its important to note that true self-love is not about Ego. Not that this being portrayed or said here. But I think it’s certainly something most people confuse it with. Thinking that being comfortable with oneself can only exists when they are able to lift themselves up above others through a make believe hierarchical structure.

 

[Solie123]

Great post T.C.! I really enjoyed reading it along with the replies. I will defiantly be bookmarking this post; I think it would be helpful especially for newbies who feel ‘useless,’ (sorry for the harsh word) because they think they aren’t contributing anything to the forum, when in fact, there perils, struggles, and accomplishments with in their own life is enough contribution.

To throw in another quote:

Be the change you want to see in the world ... We need not wait to see what others do.

I guess this might be going a little off topic but, your responsibilities begin and end with your own behavior (osit). Everything else is really outside of our control. Sometimes people take that as having some sort of responsibility of doing something for the universe, taking responsibility for the universe, (like a favor) when in fact I feel it means is taking control of your own life, for YOU. You can’t change the world for everyone, but you can change your own world.

It also reminds me of people who, ‘bit off more than they can chew,’ because I’ve seen it happen a lot. People put this tremendous effort (with all the best intentions) because they believe that they must, and in the end, they end up not doing anything and ‘falling off the wagon,’ because they don’t know why they’re doing any of it beside that they just think they should.

Thank you T.C. and all, much food for thought! 

 

[Aliana]

To expand on this needing to do things for ourselves first in order to help others, it's been said in psychology books, and elsewhere on the forum that we first need to love ourselves in order to love others. After all, we have to have something to give in order to give it.

Maybe a good example of that would be learning to parent yourself? A good parent understands that the well-being of their children is also dependent on their own mental, emotional and physical health. You cannot hope to raise well-adjusted children or to love them if you aren’t taking care of yourself, because if you get run down, you have nothing to give them. So, if we think of our group as a larger family that we want to help sustain, we could consider all of the effects of our own decisions – how they ultimately benefit or diminish us as having the same consequences for others we care about.

Those of us who didn’t have the benefit of healthy parenting, probably have more difficulties in this regard, I think. We don’t have good boundaries or a good sense of self, and often think that taking care of our own needs implies selfishness (messages that many of us got from our parents). What also happens, I think, is that we are so afraid of being selfish, we sometimes ignore our own real needs to the point that our inner brat can take the stage and start demanding its way – and that’s when we find ourselves engaging in things that don’t really replenish us, but do satisfy that brat!

Learning the difference between selfish behavior and self-compassion may be helped by projecting scenarios of the outcomes of specific behaviors and asking ourselves if the things we do or want will ultimately make us stronger or not. Will they re-generate us or just provide distractions? Sometimes, I think we have to travel down a road before we can see where it’s leading, but with continued awareness we can catch ourselves before we get too far down a diversionary path.

If we want to be the change we want to see in the world, we have to nourish our inner light.

 

[Ennio]

Those seem to be some good distinctions, aleana - especially coming to terms with what one's actual needs are versus those things we may do that feed the lesser or more "selfish" parts of ourselves.

This discussion reminds a little of this passage from Gurdjieff's 'Last Hour of Life':

[...]

Freedom is worth a million times more than [political] liberation. The free man, even in slavery,
remains a master of himself. For example, if I give you something, let’s say, a car, in which there
is no fuel, the car cannot move. Your car needs a special fuel, but it is only you who is able to
define what kind of fuel is needed and where to get it.

You have to define yourself how to digest my ideas to make them yours, so that they belong only
to you. Your car cannot work on the same fuel my car is working on. I suggest to you only the
primary material. You have to get from it what you can use. So, more bravely, sit down at the
steering wheel.

[...]

I think that what G is saying here is that when we bring as much conscious attention to that part of ourselves that can consciously choose how we're fueling ourselves, we're in a better position to determine what works and what doesn't - which I think is what T.C. is getting at.

Another word for digestion (as G. uses it), may be assimilation. How do we assimilate the ideas presented here - on this forum - so that they become the basis for feeding or fueling ourselves in the most constructive ways possible? And on the subject of being constructive, and what that means, Solie said:

I think it would be helpful especially for newbies who feel ‘useless,’ (sorry for the harsh word) because they think they aren’t contributing anything to the forum, when in fact, there perils, struggles, and accomplishments with in their own life is enough contribution.

We can empower ourselves from exactly where we are by acknowledging to ourselves what IS, and take it from there. How often do we block ourselves from moving forward by imagining some abstract ideal of what we should be, instead of working with what we CAN do and improve upon.

 

[happyliza]

Thanks TC - you are spot on for where I am at the moment, but didn't realize it until I read your post. Exhausted from 'saving' others but no fuel/feeding for myself atm - on some things anyway. NEVER will I lose the yearning to learn. But applying it is owning it and understanding it. Without your post I just would not have been able to decipher what was actually going on here.

And thank you for all the helpful replies. That fuel is nectar!

TC you are right about needing the 'feeling' component, centre - in tandem. And it seemed to disappear sometimes - perhaps in the maelstrom, stress, desperation of the situation - whatever, it waxes and wanes, through lack of nurturing! Aim is pointless without the anchor of feeling. There is no inner 'ownership; a rudderless course. The I should, I must kills it.

I too will bookmark this thread - like many important ones recently. :)

 

[obyvatel]

One of the earliest questions that formed in me when I first started to become acquainted with the Cassiopaean Material was, "If we're part of a control system that is rooted in the practice of feeding off others, then in order to detach from that control system, we have to stop feeding off others. But since it is said that STO beings feed each other, then there MUST be a fundamental need for feeding. Since we're not really in contact with STO beings, and aren't STO ourselves, then... How Do We Feed Ourselves?

This food for the self might also be described as "Soul Food". What are we asking for from the Divine Cosmic Mind when we say, "Be my daily bread as I give bread to others"? Personally, I've always thought of that as being more about knowledge - "Give me the knowledge I need in order to operate so that I can be of use to you." I think I was wrong - or at least, the devil is in the details.

The bolded idea is on the right track.



[quote author=TC]
Today, I've hit upon something that may explain everything.

It was ME.

When I came back, I had become a conscious egoist, in Gurdjieff's terms. Everything I did, I was doing for ME. Even if I was working on something for the group, I was still doing it for me, for my benefit. If I was reading, I was reading for my benefit. If I was on the diet, it was for my benefit, to get myself healthy. Etc., etc., etc.

The longer I've been back, the more I've taken on the idea that "Everything I'm doing is for the group. The only reason I exist is to help the group." So that, even if I was doing something such as ironing my clothes, the motivation was, "I'm doing this because it's what a responsible group member should do."
[/quote]

It is possible that you started identifying with the group - as in developing social identity in psychological terms. Like other things there are skillful, mutually beneficial ways of doing this as well as unskillful ways of doing this.

[quote author=TC]
Now, this is a trait that is very deeply conditioned in me. I was raised by a mother who taught me from day one that the only reason I exist is for HER, and so I was not important, I did not count and really, I didn't exist; that everything I did and was, was in reference to her. And our relationship was always a textbook feeding dynamic. The bolded part is also how my other relationships with women have played out.
[/quote]

This could be another form of identification - specifically codependency in psychological terms.

[quote author=TC]
Here's the kicker: I'm sure we can all agree that to feed off others is a selfish thing to do, but you know what, as selfish as it is, it ISN'T a self-focused thing to do - it's actually an other-focused thing to do. This is backed up by the fact that others have to allow us to feed off of them, so it's what they're asking for through THEIR actions and mode of being. By feeding off someone, we're actually doing something for them at the expense of our souls.
[/quote]

Nope. Going down the wrong track here imo.

[quote author=TC]
So we have this idea of being other-focused. When we're focused on others, even with the best intentions (I want to exist only to help others) we're neglecting our very selves.
[/quote]

Nope. Going down the wrong track here imo.

[quote author=TC]
I recently began using food to self-medicate, self-comfort and self-soothe. I now realise it was because it was something that I could give to MYSELF without in any way being able to interpret it as doing something for someone else. And it was never hunger-driven; it was always emotionally driven. The emotional message has been, "Here I am! Notice ME! Do something for ME! Give something to ME! FEED ME!!"
[/quote]

There is emotional hunger.

[quote author=TC]
"What's wrong with me? What's changed? What's been different compared to how I was last year?"

I had found self-love, last year. My life had become a reflection of that self-love. My life had become my gift to myself. Now, over the last few months, I tried to take that gift and give it to others first, instead, and I stopped actively loving myself - my life actions, even though they were exactly the same as they had been, were negating my existence rather than affirming it.
[/quote]

Can you point out exactly what you were trying to give others which started this perceived dynamic of losing love for your self?

[quote author=TC]
Another way this has reflected in my life experience: I said I'd come back to the subject of my job. Well, when I started there, the owners of the place were away at their home in Bulgaria where they spend six months of the year. They'd left the place to the care of their son, and he just let everything tick along under its own steam. Now, this meant that many things that should have been done, didn't get done, but for me it was great because being self-employed, I'm used to being my own boss and my attitude towards the place was that it's just another building where I go and teach. But since the owners came back, they've had to engage with straightening the place out, which also involves a kind of meddling in what I do and how I operate, and so what did I do? I changed my attitude towards the place. No longer was I going there for me, to do my work, under my own direction; I began going there for them, to work for them rather than working for myself. This explains why when I'm actually engaged in the teaching, I'm fine and I love it, but when away from there, there is a "spoiled" flavour to it, a reluctance to take on any more hours and a general dis-ease about having to go back there every day.
[/quote]

Seems like you do not like taking directions from others. So your motivation went down when the owners came back. And you are explaining it by "feeding self" vs "feeding others".

[quote author=TC]
So, how do you feed yourself? You live your life primarily for you. Your motivations have to be for yourself. If you're doing the diet because the rest of the group are, then your emotional part won't get the message that this is for YOUR good. If you're doing your job for your boss rather than for yourself, then you'll resent having to go into work - for them - every day. If you're spending an hour a day reading sott because you've got the belief that you have to push yourself to learn about and keep up with what's going on in the world - because that's what the other members of the forum do - then your brain will not be receptive, it'll become defensive and you just won't be able to take in the information. If your drive to get out of bed in the morning is so you can serve others by serving others, excluding your existence then you'll hit the snooze button and roll back over.
[/quote]

Here you are talking about imitation. When we start learning something new, be it a skill or be it a way of living, we often start by imitating others. Imitation is instinctive and unconscious. It is better if we learn to do something only after understanding what is it and why is it worthwhile to do - but it does not always work that way. Especially, fitting in to a group is often a powerful motivator which encourages imitation.

Imitation is just the first step in learning, the beginner stage in skill acquisition. From there, one can move on to subsequent stages, if he is aware of where he is and has some idea where he wants to go.

[quote author=TC]
Gurdjieff said: "In order to help others, one must first learn to be an egoist, a conscious egoist."

Egoist definition = One devoted to one's own interests and advancement.

I.E., someone who is doing The Work.

Live for yourself, do what you want to do FOR YOU, and the skills you develop and the life situation you get yourself into and the motivation you've got and the drive to do better and be better and look after yourself etc., etc., will become the things you can give to others and use to help others, when asked.
[/quote]

Agree

[quote author=TC]
This is how you feed yourself. You DO what you do FOR YOU. Because what is feeding another other than doing something for them, either literally or figuratively?
[/quote]

There is skillful feeding and unskillful feeding. Skillful feeding is done with a commitment to goodness. It benefits self and others. Teaching music to someone and getting compensated adequately in return can be an example of skillful reciprocal feeding.

Being an enabler or recipient in a codependent relationship can be an example of unskillful reciprocal feeding.

Doing things for others is rarely without self-interest. The smart thing, imo, is to learn how to do it skillfully and consciously, so that there is mutual benefit.

 

[Kika]

Thanks T. C. and others,

I once read the sentence, which I took as a fact of life (rule).

Religion is a faith in other people's experience and spirituality stems from our own experience.

I enjoyed reading this thinking. Cheers.

 

[bjorb]

Hi TC

It seems you question everything you do now. Trying to find the right reasons for it. I think that’s really excellent and essential for The Work. Maybe I can help.



[quote author= TC](I want to exist only to help others) we're neglecting our very selves.[/quote]

No concern for the self doesn’t imply that we should sacrifice our well-being. If we can’t take care of ourselves, mentally as well as psychically. We wouldn’t be able to help others.


[quote author= TC]So that, even if I was doing something such as ironing my clothes, the motivation was, "I'm doing this because it's what a responsible group member should do."[/quote]

Don’t do it for the group. (Don’t identify/attach yourself) Do it for others. (Trying to be a good 4STO candidate) But I think you mentioned the group because it’s the best way to serve humanity?


[quote author= TC]By feeding off someone, we're actually doing something for them at the expense of our souls.[/quote]

No, energetically feeding happens because people desire to enrich their Ego. It only shows the emptiness of their souls they attempt to fill up with the energy of others.


[quote author= TC]it ISN'T a self-focused thing to do - it's actually an other-focused thing to do. This is backed up by the fact that others have to allow us to feed off of them, so it's what they're asking for through THEIR actions and mode of being[/quote]

Feeding of others is always a self-focused/centered thing to do.

What exactly do you mean with ''allow'' I think that I am somewhat understanding what you are getting it but I am not entirely sure. Can you give a short example of what you understand as a feeding mechanism between 2 people? In that way I might understand it better.

 

[T.C.]

As a practical example, I noticed a change in me over the last years - at the beginning, I was just "absorbing" the knowledge here and on sott, in a kind of selfish way - I want to learn, I want to know, I want to be safe etc. But with the application of the knowledge, things started to click more and more, and I changed to the point where nowadays, whenever I read something interesting or stumble upon something, think I have an insight or whatever, I feel an almost overwhelming urge to share. It's as if I just can't "stuff it in there" anymore, it wants out, it wants to re-join the circle! And for this, I hardly need any willpower, because the urge is so strong that I will just do it - no to-do-list needed. And that way, it feels right - both for me, and hopefully for others.

Actually, I understand that completely because that's what inspired this thread in the first place. I've been processing a lot of stuff and I thought I'd gotten to the bottom of it all, so I wanted to share the realisation in case it might be useful to others.

With each layer of the onion that I peel off, it's like I'm refining a framework that's trying to explain what's going on with me. I now know how a theoretical scientist feels and works, trying to come up with a theory that many unresolvable problems will all fit into.

That's what obyvatel picked up on. I thought this thing about, "You've got to live your life for you and do everything for yourself" finally ticked all the boxes of the issues I'd been having, but some of the issues were a little too "square hole-like" for me to fit the round peg of the theory into, as hard as I was trying.

Today, I've hit upon something that may explain everything.

It was ME.

When I came back, I had become a conscious egoist, in Gurdjieff's terms. Everything I did, I was doing for ME. Even if I was working on something for the group, I was still doing it for me, for my benefit. If I was reading, I was reading for my benefit. If I was on the diet, it was for my benefit, to get myself healthy. Etc., etc., etc.

The longer I've been back, the more I've taken on the idea that "Everything I'm doing is for the group. The only reason I exist is to help the group." So that, even if I was doing something such as ironing my clothes, the motivation was, "I'm doing this because it's what a responsible group member should do."

It is possible that you started identifying with the group - as in developing social identity in psychological terms. Like other things there are skillful, mutually beneficial ways of doing this as well as unskillful ways of doing this.

I think what I'd identified with was actually what the group represented to me - good in the world - but it was unfortunately conflated with a belief that the group can make the world a better place! And so being a group member meant that I could help change the world, and I took on that responsibility and it stressed me out!

[quote author= TC]So that, even if I was doing something such as ironing my clothes, the motivation was, "I'm doing this because it's what a responsible group member should do."

Don’t do it for the group. (Don’t identify/attach yourself) Do it for others. (Trying to be a good 4STO candidate) But I think you mentioned the group because it’s the best way to serve humanity?

Yes, I think that's spot on.

[quote author= TC]it ISN'T a self-focused thing to do - it's actually an other-focused thing to do. This is backed up by the fact that others have to allow us to feed off of them, so it's what they're asking for through THEIR actions and mode of being

Feeding of others is always a self-focused/centered thing to do.

What exactly do you mean with ''allow'' I think that I am somewhat understanding what you are getting it but I am not entirely sure. Can you give a short example of what you understand as a feeding mechanism between 2 people? In that way I might understand it better.
[/quote]

I'm thinking like, if someone is loud and brash in social situations because they're an attention seeker, then those who give them attention (energy) must choose to do so. By the same token, someone can be quiet and withdrawn in order to garner attention/energy, and again those who give it are choosing to do so.

 

[bjorb]

[quote author= TC]I'm thinking like, if someone is loud and brash in social situations because they're an attention seeker, then those who give them attention (energy) must choose to do so. By the same token, someone can be quiet and withdrawn in order to garner attention/energy, and again those who give it are choosing to do so.[/quote]

I wouldn’t say they really choose to do so since they are not conscious of it. It are false personalities interacting with each others. Its a mechanical feeding mechanism.


[quote author= TC]I think what I'd identified with was actually what the group represented to me[/quote]

Be careful, I can’t tell if this is the case but try to never attach your Ego to any group. Like passionate football fans do for example.


[quote author= TC]That's what obyvatel picked up on. I thought this thing about, "You've got to live your life for you and do everything for yourself" finally ticked all the boxes of the issues I'd been having, but some of the issues were a little too "square hole-like" for me to fit the round peg of the theory into, as hard as I was trying.[/quote]

Our polarity is STS so it should be difficult to comprehend what it means to truly serve others. But with super-efforts. We can become good STO candidates. :)

 

[David]

‘How to feed yourself’ doesn’t sit with me somehow, not that it matters... would it be more helpful to think in terms of ‘how to free ourselves,’ or ‘to be free of feeding’ since it seems that the false personality/programs that burden the mind with all sorts of thoughts/confabulations, where awareness is reduces to a small bubble..... me me me.

And if its a false I that thinks there’s an obstacle to overcome, its probably nothing more than a false obstacle (illusion)... existing only as a program/thought pattern that limits being... and something that requires work to open up to possibilities, and effort to acquire new habits, that aid in the development of being in real life, without anticipation, without identification, perhaps just acceptance, without much in the way of conditionals, as to how something should be...

I could be wrong... specific situations and all that...