How to interact with other?

[ana]

Galahad
Well I know what my friend is about, being subtle in a way that I don’t push his buttons, about well UFOs, "paranormal", conspiracies etc, etc. Subtle can be rather subjective isn’t it. If I would played the ‘attack’ card. Confronting him, I would just be another ‘nutjob’ most probably.

Are you aware you are using the words "played" and "attack" as a possible approach to help this person?

This ‘friend’ like most people I go with are quite ponerized. Last time I checked when he was out partying, he pissed with a bunch of other guys over a girl who was lying on the ground because she couldn’t handle the amount of alcohol she had taken.

The funniest thing he told me was: ‘And every guy just joined in, it was so -flicking- funny’ Just an example, He wouldn’t care about hurting my feelings. And for others for that sake. But I see what you mean, not trying to hurt my feelings. But he isn’t like that, really caring for others isn’t in his make-up. So for him seeing it as entertainment I wasn’t surprised at all.

I wonder how would you define the word friend , and how is it related to the person you are describing here.

 

[henry]

[quote author=Galahad]Did you really think that you were being followed?

You totally missed it. What I said before.

At mine experience, facts don't count. But playing on emotions, Humor does to do the trick, people don't want to research. They want to be entertainment. It's only when they have an impression, a feeling to check it out. Than maybe afterwards they get this 'spark' To want to know more.

‘We are being followed’

Ridiculous, is the most likely responds. What follows with laughter. Because of the insanity. Some people tend to laugh at scenario’s like this and in this case my friend.

Now you have created an opening. He wants to know why, he was entertainment. So with this I could talk about the subject, instead of him, since I know him, will ridicule it but if I got beyond this barrier of his. I could get his listening ear.

I guess you took it serious, that I think is because you didn’t found it funny at all.
[/quote]

hi bjorn,

Yes, I completely missed the humour. There was something completely 'off' in you conversation and reasoning that I was trying to better understand.

I think that people need to have the spark in them. That spark can't be lit for them, be it by humour or playing on emotions. Now, I may be once again misunderstanding what you are saying, but what you write above could also be seen as a form of manipulation. You have decided what is best for your friend, that he needs to look more deeply into the world, and so you set up a scene where you can introduce the subject to him through 'entertainment'.

That your friend ended up at a party doing what he did doesn't sound to me like he has that spark. Or if it is there, it will take a great shock, not 'entertainment', to make it felt.

 

[bjorb]

[quote author=alphonse]bjorn, if i read this correctly it is shocking. Did you really mean they urinated over a girl on the floor? or is it a mis-translation? I am really hoping it is a language thing. That is a truly awful tale. It would take an awful struggle to encourage or help someone to"awaken" who is operating on that level![/quote]

Saying something like that ‘out in the open’ It has the tendency to have emotional responses followed. It can be assumed that I tried to steer the discussion. Which isn’t my intention. Next time when saying something like that I will add further explanation.

You call it shocking, But really almost everybody laughed, saying how awesome that was. And to be exactly he wasn’t the one who started it, he just joined in. With his cell phone, just like many they took photo’s he even tried to show it me. But I passed that one. Just shaking my head. Such an event had a lot of people hearing about it. And most were all so exited when they told each other. ‘Did you hear that…..’ All laughing there head off.


I think this experience of mine is also a good example about 'ponerized':

A while ago, some ‘friend’ was talking about that he from his girlfriend had to choose a transcription between donating some money to an animal or human foundation.
Suddenly a ‘girlfriend’ of mine jumped up and said: ‘well sorry but I wouldn’t care about those Africans, but I adore animals. It’s so funny to see those expressions from mine cat. It’s like there almost human I tell you. I love to hug her all day.

So this guy responded in well pretty much agreeing on it, even adding that animals are helpless and humans who aren’t able to feed themselves are just trash. Its evolution he said, and there is nothing sad about evolution. Than I came in, saying that there ‘love’ for animals must be one hell of a twisted one. If they couldn’t even care for humans dying a horrible death. Telling them that hugging a little cute cat is better than hugging some disgusting dying African child isn’t it.

And she laughed, saying: ‘your making me look so bad haha. Why are so mean?’ Than this ‘friend’ responded with: ‘yeah stop being such an -bad person-’ I just ended it with: ‘being with you guys really makes me feel less safe, seriously.’ And they laughed again.

No they don’t consider themselves ‘evil’, on the contrary I was the one being ‘the -bad person-’



[quote author=alphonse]bjorn, if i read this correctly it is shocking[/quote]

At mine subjectivity I find them ‘disgusting’ and that’s exactly why I won’t cut them off. That’s there only purpose towards me. 'Shocks' I experience because of it.



[quote author=Ana]I wonder how would you define the word friend[/quote]

A friend, you mean having a bond with someone.

What’s the use, If they are not interested in ‘objective truth’ only trying to fulfill there own subjective world.

Bonds are overrated. It’s only useful when truly trying to help each other through lessons.

Most bonds just exist so that they can feed off on each other.



[quote author=Ana]Are you aware you are using the words "played" and "attack" as a possible approach to help this person?[/quote]

[quote author=Galahad]but what you write above could also be seen as a form of manipulation. You have decided what is best for your friend, that he needs to look more deeply into the world, and so you set up a scene where you can introduce the subject to him through 'entertainment'.[/quote]

I was surprised that I could ‘reach’ him. I was a bit emotional towards this ‘success’ of mine. Which disabled me to be objective. I can see now how this conversation I had and explaining subtle contradicts each other.

So yes I tried to manipulate him into getting him into certain responses.

 

[knowledge_of_self]

This ‘friend’ like most people I go with are quite ponerized. Last time I checked when he was out partying, he pissed with a bunch of other guys over a girl who was lying on the ground because she couldn’t handle the amount of alcohol she had taken.

The funniest thing he told me was: ‘And every guy just joined in, it was so -flicking- funny’ Just an example, He wouldn’t care about hurting my feelings. And for others for that sake. But I see what you mean, not trying to hurt my feelings. But he isn’t like that, really caring for others isn’t in his make-up. So for him seeing it as entertainment I wasn’t surprised at all.

Umm wooow! I’m pretty surprised that you would think someone with this kind of mentality would genuinely be interested in the truth. Personally I not only would distance myself from people with this kind of mentality, I would never talk to them about such things as 9-11 or things of that nature. Also, I think people we associate with really affect one’s state of mind and other’s view of you. As Laura says, there is a lot you can tell about a person, from the people they choose to associate with. Also, the humour in your previous post went way over my head as does the above quote.

 

[knowledge_of_self]

[quote author=alphonse]bjorn, if i read this correctly it is shocking. Did you really mean they urinated over a girl on the floor? or is it a mis-translation? I am really hoping it is a language thing. That is a truly awful tale. It would take an awful struggle to encourage or help someone to"awaken" who is operating on that level!

Saying something like that ‘out in the open’ It has the tendency to have emotional responses followed. It can be assumed that I tried to steer the discussion. Which isn’t my intention. Next time when saying something like that I will add further explanation.[/quote]

I really don't think it needed further explanation. Personally I rather not have that picture be painted any more clear...

You call it shocking, But really almost everybody laughed, saying how awesome that was. And to be exactly he wasn’t the one who started it, he just joined in. With his cell phone, just like many they took photo’s he even tried to show it me. But I passed that one. Just shaking my head. Such an event had a lot of people hearing about it. And most were all so exited when they told each other. ‘Did you hear that…..’ All laughing there head off.

How can you stand to be around such individuals?

I think this experience of mine is also a good example about 'ponerized':

A while ago, some ‘friend’ was talking about that he from his girlfriend had to choose a transcription between donating some money to an animal or human foundation.
Suddenly a ‘girlfriend’ of mine jumped up and said: ‘well sorry but I wouldn’t care about those Africans, but I adore animals. It’s so funny to see those expressions from mine cat. It’s like there almost human I tell you. I love to hug her all day.

So this guy responded in well pretty much agreeing on it, even adding that animals are helpless and humans who aren’t able to feed themselves are just trash. Its evolution he said, and there is nothing sad about evolution. Than I came in, saying that there ‘love’ for animals must be one hell of a twisted one. If they couldn’t even care for humans dying a horrible death. Telling them that hugging a little cute cat is better than hugging some disgusting dying African child isn’t it.

And she laughed, saying: ‘your making me look so bad haha. Why are so mean?’ Than this ‘friend’ responded with: ‘yeah stop being such an -bad person-’ I just ended it with: ‘being with you guys really makes me feel less safe, seriously.’ And they laughed again.

No they don’t consider themselves ‘evil’, on the contrary I was the one being ‘the -bad person-’

No, narcissists usually don't see the error in themselves, but always in others. Again, how can you choose to associate yourself with people who you yourself see express such clear narcissism.

[quote author=alphonse]bjorn, if i read this correctly it is shocking[/quote]

At mine subjectivity I find them ‘disgusting’ and that’s exactly why I won’t cut them off. That’s there only purpose towards me. 'Shocks' I experience because of it.

Huh?!? Maybe the language is a barrier here because I seriously cannot fathom why you say that you wont cut them off. you say at your subjectivity you find them disgusting? What do you mean at your subjectivity? Do you mean you finding something wrong in their behavior is subjective? Are you saying that the shocks they give you, due to their behavior helps you see the 'good' in yourself? Please clarify.

[quote author=Ana]I wonder how would you define the word friend[/quote]

A friend, you mean having a bond with someone.

True friendship and a true bond is not overrated, it is normal.

What’s the use, If they are not interested in ‘objective truth’ only trying to fulfill there own subjective world.

In all that you've explained above, i see no one in your 'friendship' circle as objective or interested in objective truth. They seem very narcissistic and without empathy.

Bonds are overrated. It’s only useful when truly trying to help each other through lessons.

Most bonds just exist so that they can feed off on each other.

Again, true bonds and friendships are not overrated. They exist to help us and give us hope when we are in need, and vice versa. Most narcissistic bonds exist to feed off each other which seem to be precisely occurring in your own group of 'friends'.

 

[Renaissance]

Saying something like that ‘out in the open’ It has the tendency to have emotional responses followed. It can be assumed that I tried to steer the discussion. Which isn’t my intention. Next time when saying something like that I will add further explanation.

I was almost certain what you had said was a mistranslation. Your friends physically, and emotionally, and sexually assaulted an unconscious girl and you selfishly desire to be around them for the shock value? We're apparently talking about different kinds of shocks because if you really received a shock, I cannot see how you could call them friends.

And yes, expect an emotional response to this kind of violence. It is human to feel such things.

 

[Laurentien2]

But that was all, nothing else. He felt no obligation or curiosity trying to find out more. Nothing of that kind. To him it was just some entertainment.

That should have given you if not clear, good understanding that what ever knowledge given to him will be a wasted effort.

This ‘friend’ like most people I go with are quite ponerized. Last time I checked when he was out partying, he pissed with a bunch of other guys over a girl who was lying on the ground because she couldn’t handle the amount of alcohol she had taken.

Do you really believe that this guy may possess a connection whit is higher emotional center. My thought is that you are casting pearl before swine. Frequency fence take many form, OP are one of those, they are emotion reaction machine and force you to either react negatively to such behavior an withdraw energy from you or you do not react and accept their behavior as the norm of today society. Bjorn the path of access toward the way is a lonely path, you can't pull anyone whit you neither looking over your shoulder every step along it will accelerate your progression.

Citation de: alphonse
bjorn, if i read this correctly it is shocking

At mine subjectivity I find them ‘disgusting’ and that’s exactly why I won’t cut them off. That’s there only purpose towards me. 'Shocks' I experience because of it.

I'm glad to read this, We got a huge mountain to climb Bjorn an we most choose carefully what we bring in our bag. As we climb, we must not be afraid to discard the unnecessary.

 

[Helle]

At mine subjectivity I find them ‘disgusting’ and that’s exactly why I won’t cut them off. That’s there only purpose towards me. 'Shocks' I experience because of it.

Either you're lying to us, or to yourself. That's one hell of a weird explanation as to not cut these 'friends' off, and a explanation you maybe sorta made up to tell yourself why you're still hanging out with them? Think about it for a second please..

Maybe you're still hanging around them, because you're afraid you will end up with no 'friends'?
Maybe you are afraid of feeling like an outsider?
Maybe you actually at some level find what they do, amusing and entertaining?
Maybe you have one personality here on the forum, and one all together differently with 'friends'? That's very normal and nothing to be ashamed off, it is however something to Work on.

In Mouravieff, fusion is the process of forming a 'real' or 'permanent I' out of the multiple little I's which generally constitute man's personality.

The process is explained with the analogy of a vase filled with iron filings. In the default situation, each filing points in its own direction. Shocks may cause displacement and rotation of the filings, causing heat. This heat is elsewhere referred to as the struggle between yes and no. Shocks and internal struggle may in time heat the filings to be hot enough so that they melt into a single block of iron.

I don't think the shocks you describe, is what it takes though.
Please think about this with an open heart and mind. ;)

Just my thoughts though.

 

[Z...]

At mine subjectivity I find them ‘disgusting’ and that’s exactly why I won’t cut them off. That’s there only purpose towards me. 'Shocks' I experience because of it.

Either you're lying to us, or to yourself. That's one hell of a weird explanation as to not cut these 'friends' off, and a explanation you maybe sorta made up to tell yourself why you're still hanging out with them? Think about it for a second please..

Maybe you're still hanging around them, because you're afraid you will end up with no 'friends'?
Maybe you are afraid of feeling like an outsider?
Maybe you actually at some level find what they do, amusing and entertaining?
Maybe you have one personality here on the forum, and one all together differently with 'friends'? That's very normal and nothing to be ashamed off, it is however something to Work on.

In Mouravieff, fusion is the process of forming a 'real' or 'permanent I' out of the multiple little I's which generally constitute man's personality.

The process is explained with the analogy of a vase filled with iron filings. In the default situation, each filing points in its own direction. Shocks may cause displacement and rotation of the filings, causing heat. This heat is elsewhere referred to as the struggle between yes and no. Shocks and internal struggle may in time heat the filings to be hot enough so that they melt into a single block of iron.

I don't think the shocks you describe, is what it takes though.
Please think about this with an open heart and mind. ;)

Just my thoughts though.

Hi Helle, all

From what he wrote so far on the forum I can conclude Bjorn is very young person studying at university possibly away from his parents. I can also conclude Bjorn is confused and lacking experience about many things. Bjorn's sense of humor and sensibility in general, which seems to have rubbed wrongly many other forumites even on other threads are nothing out of the ordinary for average kid of this day and age.
The question is Bjorn, do you want to be average?
While most of the things replied to Bjorn here are true and hopefully they will produce the real shock he needs, we must not forget that starting Work at that age is very difficult if not inappropriate.
Or maybe I am wrong- maybe Bjorn is made of entirely different material... Only time can tell.

Bjorn, I know it may sound harsh talking about you like this but I think you can take it. The fact that you are here amongst us could mean that you have that spark, now its the time to turn it into the flame. OSIT

 

[Renaissance]

From what he wrote so far on the forum I can conclude Bjorn is very young person studying at university possibly away from his parents. I can also conclude Bjorn is confused and lacking experience about many things. Bjorn's sense of humor and sensibility in general, which seems to have rubbed wrongly many other forumites even on other threads are nothing out of the ordinary for average kid of this day and age.

Since Bjorn seemed to be justifying severe behavior by looking at his surroundings for acceptance, I think it's important to make the distinction that while such behavior can be common, that it is also a sign of the immense degree of pathological infection in our world. It also appears that Bjorn has put himself in a position where he cannot have a meaningful relationship with another. All people are not so pathological and it is possible to find connections with more healthy people. Since Bjorn is here, I hope one of the things he is not lacking experience in is in having had a loving relationship with another, whether it is a sibling, a parent, grandparent, or a true friend. These things are worth fighting for Bjorn. In doing so, you recognize something in yourself that needs others, and in the process you can realize how genuinely important you are.

 

[Azur]

It also appears that Bjorn has put himself in a position where he cannot have a meaningful relationship with another.

If anything, it looks like Bjorn has noticed that there is dissonance between internal feelings and outside behaviour of others:

Bonds are overrated. It’s only useful when truly trying to help each other through lessons.

Most bonds just exist so that they can feed off on each other.

..and he's trying to sort it out.


If Bjorn is going through what I think he's going through (in an early stage of life), the above quote is an important observation that can be overwhelming, and effectively result in "shutting down" internally in the face of the unreal "Reality" that most live in here, but that depends entirely on why there is a disconnect felt there.


A psychopath trying to fit in, or a normal human being at a loss in a ponerized culture?

Most of us are in the latter category, and have spent enormous energy in developing ways to find out how to "trust" someone because of it. Looks to me that Bjorn is going through the same.

 

[bjorb]

[quote author=bjorn]Saying something like that ‘out in the open’ It has the tendency to have emotional responses followed. It can be assumed that I tried to steer the discussion. Which isn’t my intention. Next time when saying something like that I will add further explanation.[/quote]

[quote author=Los]And yes, expect an emotional response to this kind of violence. It is human to feel such things.[/quote]

You missed it?, Discussions which are of importance, are when interrupted most done by ‘keywords’ with have strong emotions attach to it. This to steer it to trivial points. Just to distracts or/ possibility: to feed of the attention.



[quote author=Deedlet]How can you stand to be around such individuals?[/quote]

[quote author=Deedlet]Huh?!? Maybe the language is a barrier here because I seriously cannot fathom why you say that you wont cut them off.[/quote]

The Seer Don Juan explained to Castaneda that it was the task of Warriors to learn to face these Petty Tyrants with temperance and to prevail against their torments. Dealing with Petty Tyrants called for four qualities of warriorship: control, discipline, forbearance and timing. Whereas to be defeated meant to act in anger, and potentially join the ranks of the Petty Tyrants.

Castaneda's Don Juan tells the story of his servitude as a worker in a mansion, under the supervision of a brutish slave driver who regularly worked his captives to death. He escapes once, gets shot and is healed by his to be teacher and master. Years later, Don Juan returns, following his master's advice and of his own accord to the house in order to derive further benefit from the petty tyrant. This time, Don Juan plays the role of a hard worker and devout Christian, to the point of leading a prayer circle among the servants. He attracts the attention of the owners of the plantation by his service and initiative, which can only infuriate the slave driver who thenceforth seeks for any opportunity to murder Don Juan. Finally, in the presence of the people of the house, including the owner's wife, he insults the slave driver and flees into the stables. The furious man pursues him there and is kicked to death by a horse.

The point is made quite clear: Toiling without complaining under the supervision of a brute given to excess and violence and doing so without fear or resentment, simply biding one's time certainly develops control over impulses, rids one of excess self-importance or vanity.

Dealing with Petty Tyrants called for four qualities of warriorship: control, discipline, forbearance and timing. Whereas to be defeated meant to act in anger, and potentially join the ranks of the Petty Tyrants.

There are cases of undercover agents who for years, try to find acceptance into joining high level psychopathic organizations. Let’s say the mafia. They play there role until it’s no longer necessary. When only they have enough evidence to neutralize them, they act.

What control, discipline, forbearance and timing they have. That's my goal.



[quote author=Los]Since Bjorn seemed to be justifying severe behavior by looking at his surroundings for acceptance, I think it's important to make the distinction that while such behavior can be common, that it is also a sign of the immense degree of pathological infection in our world.[/quote]

Justifying?: I wish I was there, because if I would. I could take some detailed pictures myself. Later on I would had helped and advised the victim to take charges against them. I had the evidence and with that I would gladly testify in court.

When the opportunity arises I will ‘nail them to the cross’ be sure of that.



[quote author=Helle]Maybe you have one personality here on the forum, and one all together differently with 'friends'? That's very normal and nothing to be ashamed off, it is however something to Work on.[/quote]

[quote author=Helle]In Mouravieff, fusion is the process of forming a 'real' or 'permanent I' out of the multiple little I's which generally constitute man's personality.

The process is explained with the analogy of a vase filled with iron filings. In the default situation, each filing points in its own direction. Shocks may cause displacement and rotation of the filings, causing heat. This heat is elsewhere referred to as the struggle between yes and no. Shocks and internal struggle may in time heat the filings to be hot enough so that they melt into a single block of iron.
[/quote]

Maybe this is more or less the same

[quote author=C']A: They didn't crystallize, they split.

Q: (L) So one difference is that some people crystallize to survive, and some people split to survive. Is that it?

A: Yes

Q: (L) And I guess if you split to survive, all you have to do is bring yourself together and merge, and therefore it is somewhat easier than somebody who has crystallized and has to break everything down. Is that it?

A: Yes
[/quote]

A personality you create so it meets the circumstances. Right? I had all kind of different ‘little I’ Still have some which I can recognize, I am dealing with it. But at mine viewpoint it does not appears that I have different one on this forum.

[quote author=Helle]Maybe you're still hanging around them, because you're afraid you will end up with no 'friends'?

Maybe you are afraid of feeling like an outsider?
[/quote]

You mean loneliness? That was painful especially when I started ‘the work’. But I think I overcame that in general. For some time I always looked back. Focusing my energy on well mine ‘emotional blockages’ But I am quite happy. I look forward in life. Meaning I can focus mine energy more on things like, achieving more knowledge and awareness.



[quote author=Corto Maltese]we must not forget that starting Work at that age is very difficult if not inappropriate[/quote]

What’s the alternative considered the circumstances. Pain/Hate was my motivation, ‘I was forced’. ‘The work’ is now for several years un ongoing activity for me. I don’t just started it.



[quote author=Azur]Most of us are in the latter category, and have spent enormous energy in developing ways to find out how to "trust" someone because of it. Looks to me that Bjorn is going through the same.[/quote]

I care about my parents, my little sister and brother. I need to protect them.

It may look that I don’t believe in friendship I, far from it. Like Deedlet said:

[quote author=Deedlet]Again, true bonds and friendships are not overrated. They exist to help us and give us hope when we are in need [/quote]

But for what do I need a bond for, to share ‘trivial’ things?
I can trust people. But only from observation. Still there ‘world’ and mine contradicts each other. There is nothing to gain. There are a lot more people who are I think are ‘good at hearth’ than they are not.
I also go along with ‘those kind’ It’s not that I am fully surrounded by narcissism. It’s more that I see them regular because of the circumstances.

At times I am quite social, I am not a stranger to people. But there are things who have priority.

I can be mistaken entirely, but maybe and if you can understand now:

I rather have a bond with hatred.

Those ‘friends’ are the ‘best’ I ever had.

 

[Oxajil]

bjorn, shouldn't your goal be to Know yourself? How can you try to know others if you don't even know who you are?
I think there is no need to be in such contact with such people to be able to do the Work.

Even though there is this:

In Castaneda's book, Don Juan even says that if one does not have a petty tyrant to begin with, one must go seek one out. In practice, diverse levels of petty tyrants occur naturally. They cannot always be confronted directly or bypassed. Castaneda gives an outline for how such a situation can be turned around and used as a catalyst for growth and how one can expose the petty tyrant while oneself maintaining the higher ground.

It is better though to first have some self-knowledge before going after any petty tyrants. (imo)

 

[Tigersoap]

I rather have a bond with hatred.
Those ‘friends’ are the ‘best’ I ever had.

I don't know Bjorn but it looks like you enjoy putting yourself through difficult situations just for the sake of it.
Maybe you'd like to pretend that you're not like them and that it makes you feel special ?

Bjorn, seriously, you're no hero or masked avenger.
You're just ponerized like the rest.
Stop hanging around pathological individuals playing this spiritual undercover spy game in your head.

 

[Z...]

I rather have a bond with hatred.

Those ‘friends’ are the ‘best’ I ever had.

This I find very difficult to understand. Can you explain better.