Huge Protests in Romania

[edgitarra]

Amid the unrest, Bucharest police used tear gas against protesters, who threw firecrackers and smoke bombs at officers. Three policemen and two protesters were reported to have been injured in clashes.

They were not protesters, I repeat. The protesters ran when this happened. They were instigators of violence and unrest, Ultras Football supporters. During 6 days of protests there was not a single violent action reported. I repeat Ultras hooligans, hired by 2 mobsters who are also in the PSD party. Let us not make this mistake.

I don't want to break anyone's bubbles but I've been watching a lot of Russian Media about the situation in Romania, and heck, I have no idea where they get it from, but contains a lot of disinformation. And I also happen to know why. Moldova and Basarabia is like a Crimeea for the Russian. From here you get the point. So please, guys I know you like a lot Russia, and the overall image on the forum is quite pretty, but they aren't perfect. They have their dirty interests too, even if they are the lesser evil.

The protest were peaceful, they had one purpose in mind(stopping the decree), people now started to settle(only a few protesters), even though people want to bring the government down, I don't think it will happen because a government has to do its job. It is at the moment the worst political party but, they are better of starting to do their jobs, otherwise they will get kicked out of the government. Romanians are not foolish people anymore.

 

[edgitarra]

Hey Biuta, nice meeting you. I want to disagree with you on some stuff.

When this decree (which by the way has the number 13 out of all numbers...) was published, the President has joined a small group of people protesting in the plaza to encourage them and a Facebook campaign of support was launched.

The did not join any group of people. There was a number of 12,13 people went to the Victoria Square. The President only supported in general a population that can deem what is right or wrong, and what they want. It was a very general and open discussion which can lead to many interpretations.

The President came to the Parliament today and said that the resignation of only one Minister is not enough, but that advanced elections would be too much and that he leaves it to the majority party PSD to chose their course of action.

He left them to choose. But he also mentioned - as I watched the speech - that he strictly mentioned he does not support anyone who is in favor to bring down the government. He said that the Government should stay and do its job. Personally I agree to that, you should also check Cristian Tudor Popescu talking about this. It does not matter who is in the government as long as they stop their nitty-witty shitty corrupt workarounds and do their job honestly.

I have to mention that through the Romanian Constitution the role of the President is one of a mediator between the political forces of the country.
What I noticed in the images from the plaza where the people were protesting first against decree #13 and now for the Government's resignation, was the size and the quality of the banners, which point to a very well organized and financed protest, which, coupled with the fact that the mobilization, as well as the daily guidance for the protests was done mostly through social media, has, in my mind, all the markings of something that is more than a spontaneous movement and looks more and more like a coup.
The question is qui prodest?

I think you skipped this one, sorry to bring up some info that will contradict your view - Nobody supported me and my girlfriend but we volunteered to help in any way. She also did a website that relates to protest locations for free. Think this way
1. There were at least 15 hostels that gave free rooms to people
2. There were at least 50-100 companies that offered free food and tea, on their own expense.
3. Free transportation - in Romania from January or so, every student has free train transportation. Transport companies also offered free vehicles.
If you find it hard and think it was backed up - please do contact any company that offered this and ask for their pledge and financial loss, just because they gave stuff for free.
4. The mobilization was perfectly organized because people got united and involved in this - Kind of weird seeing how well people act when they are united isn't it?
5. Not a single protester got paid. Not single one! BUT

In the case of those 1000 people who protested at the Cotroceni Palace - they each got 100 Ron(romanian currency, aprox 25 dollars per protester), and also brought with state transportation at the urgency of Dragnea. Check the latest news on this, it is embarrassing. When people were asked why they were protesting in favor of PSD - one of them answered that Iohannis(the President) was using a psihotronic weapon to manipulate the crows. Let us be serious for a moment.


PS. Let us take the scenario that Iohannis is deeply involved in this situation and that everything was organized and it was a coup. Against whom? A bunch of thiefs and corrupt leaders who want to get away with their criminal activities? Well hell, then it's the kind of coup that I would like.
For all the others here, who are not romanians, try and study PSD and what the mineriad was. How many politicians who were in PSD and still are are involved in dozens of scandals, and criminal activity.

And I give you my word, I reject the idea of protests, because I hate being in a group and dragged into the sentiment of the whole, the emontional aspects. I always try to support something I think has its worth, but I cannot bare to stay more than a few minutes in a protesting crowd.
Ed

 

[Aeneas]

I too am of Romanian origins and I am following the events with a lot of interest.
I agree with edgitarra that the article that Aeneas quoted might have some disinformation in it, however, if one looks at the series of events at a broader time scale and at some of the elements that are visible on the images broadcast from the plaza where the demonstrations are taking place, there are some things that lead me to suspect that there is more to the story than what is presented by the media.
Two years ago President Iohannis has been elected after a huge social media campaign in which voters, especially those in the diaspora, were mobilized through Facebook.
A little over a year ago the Government from the same party was forced to resign after another media campaign after a tragic incident in a night club, and the President has put in place what he called "his Goverment".
For the December 1st celebrations (Romania's National Holiday) the President has specifically stated that he will not invite the leader of the PSD Party, Liviu Dragnea, who is also the leader of the Representatives Chamber in the Romanian Parliament, and the leader of the ALDE Party, Calin Popescu-Tariceanu, who is also the leader of the Senate in the Romanian Parliament, to participate in the festivities.
The elections of December 8th have brought a winning coalition between PSD and ALDE with a comfortable majority.
The opposition has accepted the result of the election.
After the elections the President has tried to get the leader of ALDE (the same guy he did not invite to the festivities) to switch sides so that he can get a coalition formed from all the other parties and exclude PSD from the Government.
The winning coalition has then made a proposal for a Prime Minister. It was a woman and a muslim. The President has refused the nomination after a few days, with no explanation given.
A second nomination was made, for the current Prime Minister, Sorin Grindeanu, and after a few days of silence, the President has accepted the nomination via an SMS to the Prime Minister nominee and not via a public appearance.
In the new Year the new Government was installed and started executing on the plan for which the people voted them into power. I hear that out of forty something tasks they set for themselves for the first quarter, they have already implemented about thirty of them.
One of these measures is the controversial decree that appears to have started this crisis.
When this decree (which by the way has the number 13 out of all numbers...) was published, the President has joined a small group of people protesting in the plaza to encourage them and a Facebook campaign of support was launched.
The result was massive demonstrations in Bucharest and all of the main cities. These were for the main part peaceful, with a few isolated incidents on one night.
After a few days of protests during which the Government tried to explain the rationale for the contested decree, the Government has agreed to give up on that decree and send it to Parliament as a project for a law for debate.
At this point the discourse of the opposition forces has changed, it was no longer enough for that one contested decree to be cancelled, now it was a matter of honor for the Government to resign. Initially it was just the Justice Minister's head, but then it was also the Prime Minister, etc.
The President came to the Parliament today and said that the resignation of only one Minister is not enough, but that advanced elections would be too much and that he leaves it to the majority party PSD to chose their course of action.
I have to mention that through the Romanian Constitution the role of the President is one of a mediator between the political forces of the country.
What I noticed in the images from the plaza where the people were protesting first against decree #13 and now for the Government's resignation, was the size and the quality of the banners, which point to a very well organized and financed protest, which, coupled with the fact that the mobilization, as well as the daily guidance for the protests was done mostly through social media, has, in my mind, all the markings of something that is more than a spontaneous movement and looks more and more like a coup.
The question is qui prodest?

Thank you biuta for your input.

The president of Romanaia Johannis does not appear so innocent in this conflict. I highlighted a few points above and his behaviour looks more as one who is out to get his will and likely the will of his potential handlers in place. Like he would not accept a first nomination, the muslim woman. Then he would not publicly accept the second choice but chose to ok it via SMS. Then he actively participates in the protests. Next when the government pulls the decree in question, then he is not happy with just one resignation, but wants more. From a point of view of being a mediator, that is a little strange, don't you think, though he could be innocent. To little information to go by.

The previous government was thrown out because of austerity measures, so the people are hurting and are likely having enough. These divisions could be exploited by foreign agents. I am not saying this is the case, but it has been seen before.

What is more the protesters carried signs in English. Now I am not Romanian, but I still doubt that English is the most common language. Having signs in English is one of the hallmarks of color revolutions, and the protests have gotten attention from the international media.

I was going to post the article from Sputnik, but Angelburst beat me to it ;) In that article one can see the signs in English.

Edgitarra, I just noticed your response and I do hear you. The point I wanted to make is, that some people have an interest in exploiting normal tensions in a society and turn it in a direction that serves their aim and not those of the people. Corruption if I understand you is not a new thing in Romania, neither was it a new thing in Ukraine. It also means that influence is easily bought. In Ukraine, all of a sudden it became the key issue and it was certainly unifying and something that everybody could agree upon. But in Ukraine, the support for the protesters stopped, the moment the coup government got into power despite the fact that they are even worse than any before them, having turned Ukraine into a failed state and utterly neglected the ordinary people.

An interesting thing is the Romanian relationship with the IMF. _https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania-IMF_relations

In 1981 Romania took up a loan with the IMF of 1.5 billion dollars.

Romania made the last payment in 1989, a few months before the Romanian Revolution. According to Mugur Isărescu, Ceaușescu wanted to take the country out of the IMF, but he did not act out of the fear that he might lose the gold deposited at the organization.[14]

So at the end of 1989, Romania had no debt.

The revolution happened and new debt bondage followed by austerity measures, privatization, deindustrialization etc.

Fast forward to 2009:

While in January 2009, President Traian Băsescu said that the last thing Romania would do would be to sign an agreement with the IMF,[24] his tone softened to agree an IMF monitorization (but without any conditions put on by the IMF)[25] and eventually, Prime Minister Emil Boc signed the new agreement in June 2009, Boc arguing that the loan will be taken exclusively by the National Bank of Romania to consolidate its reserves.[26]

The IMF and EU agreement gave Romania a 20 billion € line of credit of which the National Bank of Romania and the Romanian government took 17.9 billion € and which should be gradually returned by 2023, giving a total average interest of 15% (2.74 billion €).[27]

15% intest in times when the interest Banks pay is zero is usury in the extreme, but that is the IMF and the EU troika for you!!!


The new government in Romania came to power with promises of ending the austerity measures (due to IMF loans and demands) and making it easier for people. This is not what the IMF and the EU want. And the IMF and the EU are well versed in stirring up trouble. Just ask Greece and they will tell you.

Then these protests happen within days of the new government coming to power. The protests should have been directed at the IMF and the Troika, but instead Romanians appear to just be pointing fingers at each other. Not unlike the Greek scenario where the Golden Dawn movement got stirred up to create divisions.

It is of course important not to try and think that every protest is a color revolution, but it is also important to know how normal peaceful protests of grievances can be taken over by players with money and influence.

 

[biuta]

@edgitarra I don't want to enter into any kind of polemic with you, the intention of my post was to offer some balance to everything else that was posted before. Let's agree that there is a lot of disinformation on both sides, all I am saying is that the President has thrown some fuel on the fire when he joined the demonstration in the first days (and he did do that - see here: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38714439.) and that now, rather than joining the protesters again and send them home as the reason for the demonstration is not there anymore, he is now redirecting the anger of the people towards changing the Government, when in fact that would not achieve anything new, i.e. the Government would have to be chosen from the same party, which, no matter how corrupt, etc. (as we well know ALL politicians, EVERYWHERE are corrupt) was voted by the majority of the people that participated in the elections last December. I still remember similar mob manipulation techniques used back in December 1989, June 1990 and later, and you can see the same techniques being used all over the World, through all the Spring or colored so called revolutions.
What I am trying to say is that, in my opinion, what happens now is in no way in the interest of Romania or the Romanian people. It might serve the interests of the opposition, which is no less corrupt than the party currently in power, but I think only a small political gain is possible, but for what price?
I am not questioning your good intentions, I am convinced that both yourself as well as most of the people offering free lodging, etc. did this with an open heart, really believing that you are doing something good. I also agree that the anger that is brewing under the surface is justified, there were too many years of irregularities, but to attribute that only to the party that has won the election I think is not fair. If they were the only corrupt ones, why did people vote for them? If people voted them, let's respect their vote and allow a legitimate Government to do its job and judge them on their actions rather than respond to emotional buttons that this or that man behind a more or less transparent curtain is pushing on.
Here is where I think the knowledge we can get from reading this website and the writings of Laura and other books recommended in this Forum, help one realize that it is possible to have two groups of people, both being convinced that they are right, and actually be right, since their realities are different, and both of them are right in their own reality. You, based on your own experiences and information you have, are convinced that you are right and the people currently demonstrating against the President are wrong. They believe that they are right and you are wrong. But in the end you are both part of the same people and if they voted somebody in power and they were more than you, then you should respect that vote, no matter if you like it or not. Here I find an interesting parallel in terms of what is happening in the US where we have similar protests of people who are not happy with the result of an election and someone is pushing their buttons. Once you realize this and you take a step back and look at the big picture and start to realize that people do not drop everything and go to gather in such big numbers without being instigated and then lead, their anger being captured and redirected for certain purposes, then it becomes very important to start asking yourself the question who benefits from what is happening. I don't want to start speculating on that end since there is no simple answer, usually there is more than one group involved and multiple converging interests. But I have no doubt that what is happening is not in the interest of Romania or the Romanian people.
To Aeneas's point, there are a lot of instances in which Romania was pillaged after 1990, all of those cases looking like they were taken right off one of John Perkins' EHM books.
Slowly Romania's wealth has changed hands so that now it returned to the situation in the 1930's when more or less anything of value is owned by foreign Corporations and Romania, if it still has a more or less decent standard of living, it is achieved on credit and I think sooner or later it will most likely suffer the same fate as Greece and then everybody will blame the Romanians for taking the loans, etc.

 

[angelburst29]

The Romanian parliament has not supported on Wednesday the vote of no confidence in the ruling Social Democrat government headed by Sorin Grindeanu.

Romania's Parliament Votes Against Motion of No Confidence in Grindeanu Gov't
https://sputniknews.com/europe/201702081050471433-romania-grideanu-vote-motion/

The motion was initiated by the center-right opposition, namely the National Liberal Party and the National Salvation Front, with further support of the People's Movement Party.

The motion needed 233 out of 465 votes to pass, however, it was supported only by 161 lawmakers.

On Monday, Social Democrats' leader Liviu Dragnea said the government had no reasons to resign amid anti-governmental protests, adding that it fully supported Grindeanu.

Thousands of people took to the streets in Romania last week to express their discontent over amendments to the country’s Criminal Code issued by the government. The amendments envisaged reduced penalties for some graft offenses and pardon for several groups of prisoners. Although the amendments were repealed on Sunday, the protests demanding the resignation of the government have continued.

 

[angelburst29]

Romania’s Justice Minister Florin Iordache announced Thursday he decided to stand down amid historic anti-government protests that gripped the country over a graft decree.

Romanian Justice Minister Announces Resignation Amid Anti-Government Protests
https://sputniknews.com/europe/201702091050508085-romania-minister-resings-protests/

Romanian Prime Minister Sorin Grindeanu said Monday he was considering firing the justice chief over his handling of the scrapped decree that sought to relax anti-corruption rules.

The embattled minister argued on Thursday that all legal initiatives he had taken responsibility for were "lawful and constitutional."

"I have decided to resign from the post of justice minister," Iordache told reporters, as quoted by the Romanian news agency Аgerpres.

The Romanian parliament did not support on Wednesday the vote of no confidence in the ruling Social Democrat government headed by Sorin Grindeanu. The motion was initiated by the center-right opposition, namely the National Liberal Party and the National Salvation Front, with further support of the People's Movement Party.

 

[edgitarra]

Aeneas, here is a clarification to your article, the person that wrote it, Modeste Schwartz - works under an alias - Raoul Weiss. Read here and you will find out more. Just use translate to translate the article.

translation of a phrase

Who is behind these articles is a poet and translator of French origin. He was part of a group of left-wing intellectuals gathered around the philosopher and essayist François Bréda Insomnia literary café in Cluj-Napoca.

His real name is Raoul Weiss.

You can read one of the few articles (dating from 2014) in which Schwartz and Weiss together appear as signatories.
Schwartz (schwarz similar to pronounce and means black in German) and Weiss (white, in German) are the same man. Nor is the use of pseudonyms or vehemence about his texts have not managed to get an explanation.

On the contrary.

After I wrote Raoul Weiss and I asked him about this, he has deleted all references on Facebook.

https://pressone.ro/alb-si-negru-cine-e-modeste-schwartz-autorul-conspirationist-promovat-de-dughin/

 

[Aeneas]

Aeneas, here is a clarification to your article, the person that wrote it, Modeste Schwartz - works under an alias - Raoul Weiss. Read here and you will find out more. Just use translate to translate the article.

translation of a phrase

Who is behind these articles is a poet and translator of French origin. He was part of a group of left-wing intellectuals gathered around the philosopher and essayist François Bréda Insomnia literary café in Cluj-Napoca.

His real name is Raoul Weiss.

You can read one of the few articles (dating from 2014) in which Schwartz and Weiss together appear as signatories.
Schwartz (schwarz similar to pronounce and means black in German) and Weiss (white, in German) are the same man. Nor is the use of pseudonyms or vehemence about his texts have not managed to get an explanation.

On the contrary.

After I wrote Raoul Weiss and I asked him about this, he has deleted all references on Facebook.

https://pressone.ro/alb-si-negru-cine-e-modeste-schwartz-autorul-conspirationist-promovat-de-dughin/

Thank you for the clarification! It is always useful with more info in order to objectively assess any situation.

 

[biuta]

I found this article, which, while has to be taken with a grain of salt considering the source, I think gives a fairly accurate description about the political landscape in Romania in the last 25+ years and, in my opinion, shines some light regarding what might be actually going on and why.

 

[Aeneas]

Things are still stirring in Romania. It is again a call for the elected government to resign and with expats making a presence.One wonders why expats who neither pay taxes in the country, nor live there under the laws are so keen to topple the democratically elected government (AND on top of it waving EU flags).

At least 440 people injured, including 24 gendarmes, in clashes between anti-government protesters & riot police in Bucharest, Romania -- Sott.net

At least 440 people injured, including 24 gendarmes, in clashes between anti-government protesters & riot police in Bucharest, Romania


RT
Sat, 11 Aug 2018 09:10 UTC


© Daniel Mihailescu / AFP
Hundreds of people have been injured after a massive anti-corruption rally in Bucharest, spearheaded by expats calling on the government to resign, turned violent, forcing riot police to use water cannons and tear gas.

Bucharest's Victoriei Square became a scene of violent clashes with police warning the protesters in advance that they would not tolerate disorder. Despite the warnings, several groups of protesters calling for the resignation of the Social Democrat Party-led government tried to break through a security line. Police responded by firing tear gas and deployed water cannons against the crowd.


© Inquam Photos/Octav Ganea via Reuters
A massive anti-corruption rally in Bucharest

​

At least 440 people, including 24 gendarmes, received medical treatment after being injured in the rally, authorities said. At least 65 people were transported to hospital, nine of whom were gendarmes.

​

© Inquam Photos/Octav Ganea via Reuters
Police uses a water cannon against an anti-government rally in Bucharest
What eventually grew into a massive, 60,000-strong rally began at noon, when roughly 200 expats gathered to protest corruption, low wages and attempts by the PSD to weaken the judiciary. Initiated by diaspora associations, Romanians living abroad waved the national tricolor and EU flags and chanted slogans against the government and the Social Democratic Party (PSD), such as 'Down PSD!', 'Thieves!' and 'Resign!' They also held banners reading 'Citizens have the right and duty to defend Romania', and 'No: Corrupt Romania, Corrupt MPs'.

​

At 5:00 pm the rally officially took off under the careful watch of authorities. At least 30 ambulances, three emergency services motorcycles and 13 fire engines were deployed for Friday's rally.

Before authorities moved in to curb the unrest, the head of the Romanian Gendarmerie Service, Marius Militaru, urged all women and children to leave, warning that provocateurs might use them "as a shield to protect themselves." Militaru noted that the violent crowd threw bottles and pieces of asphalt at police lines.

​

Law enforcement pushed the crowd from the square to adjacent streets. While most activists went home, a few pockets of rowdy protesters continued to engage the police into the night.

SOTT Comment: A couple of key ingredients in there suggest 'color revolution' - that this was led by 'diaspora Romanians', and that they were waving EU flags, i.e. they weren't nationalists.