I'm feeling unwelcome here, post deleted

[Andromeda]

Maybe you should try and learn from past mistakes? You're not unwelcome here, unless you make yourself unwelcome here.

OK, so what would I be doing to make myself unwelcome here?

Hi Archaea, you've already gotten more than enough excellent food for thought from the responses here, but I'll add just this one more thing in case it helps to say it in another way. Since you asked.

It looks to me like your main problems are the following:

Attention seeking. You have hurts like most people do, but you expect others to fix them by giving you the kind of attention you want. Unfortunately, the kind of attention you want is NOT the kind of attention that has been doing you any good. Here is an example of the dynamic: Someone brings up a grievance or hurt. You basically say "Oh I understand THAT (even if you don't entirely), now everybody look how bad my grievance or hurt is!" Just imagine how that looks. If we were all little kids, you'd be the one that, after hearing about someone else skinning their knee, would bust in and demand the lollipop. Which leads to the next issue....

Lack of situational awareness. You have certain narratives that you make up willy-nilly to justify doing what you want instead of paying attention. You aren't paying attention to what is actually needed for others or when and how to express yourself. You may think something along the lines of "I'm just trying to communicate my feelings! Doing that is GOOD!" when a lot of times it's obvious to others that you are trying to steal the spotlight and jab at those you see as in positions of authority. You are too focused on yourself to see what might actually help the other person (and therefore yourself), or to make the effort to convey your feelings in a sincere way when, where, and how it is appropriate. Of course, no one is perfect at this, but I think you could do a LOT better if you tried. What about changing your focus from how complex you are to how complex the situation and the other people are? Which leads to the next issue...

Underdeveloped personal authority. You have a history of being covertly antagonistic to downright jerky towards the founders and moderators of this forum that you claim to appreciate. You want to dictate how you and others should be treated (especially when being jerky) even though you understand very little about healthy human relations at this point. You were probably hurt by someone in authority in the past and feel very powerless yourself. This happens to a lot of people and they deal with it in various ways. In your case, instead of using your energy to develop your own sense of internal personal authority, you try to make other people feel bad (unconsciously) thinking it will make you feel more powerful. That will never work. I'm pretty sure that the kind of personal authority you seek can only be built by learning self-discipline and learning to be kind to others. Probably the opposite of what you were originally taught about strength. There are other people who have been hurt that, for instance, try to help others with their problems. This CAN actually help if it comes from your heart. I think you should stop seeing yourself as a victim and then trying to bring others down to that level. What about finding strength in being cooperative and loving?


I'm sure you have many good qualities that can more than keep the above issues in line. You just have to start giving them the spotlight. Maybe by checking as best you can if your intended post has been hijacked by any of the programs listed will be a helpful practice to start with. And if you don't find anything wrong with what you write, you can always close with a sincerely meant "I know I have problems seeing things clearly sometimes, so I will wait for feedback and listen truly." Even if you don't write that, it might be a helpful attitude to ALWAYS have.

Yeah I can see that it is about my internal considering, a need for attention, which part of me doesn't want. If I don't want to be a part of what's happening here I can just not come to this website, then when my feelings change I can come back without bothering anybody. Getting my account deleted is a way of forcing myself not to come back.

You may also want to consider that you do these things so that you can feel like a victim in the end and blame others for the situation instead of looking at your own responsibility. Now, obviously, you are still here, and you've been around for a while, so I assume there is more to you than that. Maybe giving the bigger parts of yourself some more room to grow and feeding them instead of the smaller parts would be better? But then how do you know which is the big and which is the small? That's where sincerely asking and listening to others is important!

 

[CelticWarrior]

Maybe you should try and learn from past mistakes? You're not unwelcome here, unless you make yourself unwelcome here.

OK, so what would I be doing to make myself unwelcome here?

Hi Archaea, you've already gotten more than enough excellent food for thought from the responses here, but I'll add just this one more thing in case it helps to say it in another way. Since you asked.

It looks to me like your main problems are the following:

Attention seeking. You have hurts like most people do, but you expect others to fix them by giving you the kind of attention you want.

Lack of situational awareness. You have certain narratives that you make up willy-nilly to justify doing what you want instead of paying attention. You aren't paying attention to what is actually needed for others or when and how to express yourself. You are too focused on yourself to see what might actually help the other person (and therefore yourself), or to make the effort to convey your feelings in a sincere way when, where, and how it is appropriate. Of course, no one is perfect at this, but I think you could do a LOT better if you tried. What about changing your focus from how complex you are to how complex the situation and the other people are?

Underdeveloped personal authority. I'm pretty sure that the kind of personal authority you seek can only be built by learning self-discipline and learning to be kind to others. This CAN actually help if it comes from your heart. I think you should stop seeing yourself as a victim and then trying to bring others down to that level. What about finding strength in being cooperative and loving?


I'm sure you have many good qualities that can more than keep the above issues in line. You just have to start giving them the spotlight. Maybe by checking as best you can if your intended post has been hijacked by any of the programs listed will be a helpful practice to start with. And if you don't find anything wrong with what you write, you can always close with a sincerely meant "I know I have problems seeing things clearly sometimes, so I will wait for feedback and listen truly." Even if you don't write that, it might be a helpful attitude to ALWAYS have.

Yeah I can see that it is about my internal considering, a need for attention, which part of me doesn't want. If I don't want to be a part of what's happening here I can just not come to this website, then when my feelings change I can come back without bothering anybody. Getting my account deleted is a way of forcing myself not to come back.

You may also want to consider that you do these things so that you can feel like a victim in the end and blame others for the situation instead of looking at your own responsibility. Now, obviously, you are still here, and you've been around for a while, so I assume there is more to you than that. Maybe giving the bigger parts of yourself some more room to grow and feeding them instead of the smaller parts would be better? But then how do you know which is the big and which is the small? That's where sincerely asking and listening to others is important!

Andromeda has made these points in such a way that shows the sacrifice/time/effort that it takes to understand how others can grow by showing the sincerity in listening. To YOU. This is the challenge that you must take upon yourself at this moment in time and truly work on what can help you no longer feel isolated or alone in what you hope to contribute here. There's no better undertaking than to take the chance at re-focusing your energies for a greater good, so this is a great honor to learn here.

Just be careful that you're not being disruptive of other members as Laura has pointed out. And yes there are always rules of behavior to be followed in any society or choice of school.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Attention seeking. You have hurts like most people do, but you expect others to fix them by giving you the kind of attention you want. Unfortunately, the kind of attention you want is NOT the kind of attention that has been doing you any good. ...

Lack of situational awareness. ... You are too focused on yourself to see what might actually help the other person (and therefore yourself), or to make the effort to convey your feelings in a sincere way when, where, and how it is appropriate.

Underdeveloped personal authority. You have a history of being covertly antagonistic to downright jerky towards the founders and moderators of this forum that you claim to appreciate. ...

You've got some great feedback here, Archaea. I hope you can see how the problems Andromeda wrote about above might relate to the 'covert antagonism' that you noticed in yourself. They all tie in to each other. For example, in the case of your deleted post, you were basically doing all of the above: seeking attention for your hurt feelings, but doing so in an inappropriate situation that was not beneficial for the person to whom you were responding, and antagonizing the forum founders and members in the process. You were acting in such a way as to reinforce the distance between yourself, that other person, and a more healthy outlook for both of you. Kind of like two schoolchildren who bond with each other over their dislike of their schoolteacher. As long as they have each other to reinforce their perceptions (that they have been mistreated, that the teacher is wrong, and that they are right), they will not be able to see the situation more objectively. They will have a more difficult time seeing things from the teacher's perspective, and what can be done in the future to have a healthier relationship with the teacher (and with each other). I don't think you were doing any of this on purpose. It probably just 'felt right'.

Unfortunately, when we have some deep wounds, they affect our behaviors in ways that will NOT lead to actually helping deal with those problems. The results of your wounds (e.g., the things Andromeda mentioned) cannot heal those wounds; they will just end up controlling you. You need a different set of tools. I'm sure we've all met people who are obviously 'living in the past'. They live and relive their past sufferings in ways that obviously aren't healthy. They constantly bring up past grievances, slights, insults, and hurts. And the result is that they never actually live in the present and for the future. They're stuck in their past suffering, which becomes their present suffering and will just continue on into the future. We all do this to a certain degree, even if it isn't so obvious as others. But the dynamic is the same.

So the question is, what can you do differently? You've got some good advice and suggestions already, but maybe it would be helpful for you to think about it yourself and try to formulate some ideas?

 

[Archaea]

I can see how the things Andromeda mentioned apply to me. I'll endeavor to keep them in mind:

-Attention seeking
-Lack of situational awareness
-Underdeveloped personal authority

I think the underdeveloped personal authority one is a big one. I think maybe that's another case of splitting, since I do appreciate the moderators, but at the same time I don't. It used to be hard for me to express my feelings, at some point I think I learned to keep them to myself, which I'm sure a lot of people did. I guess going all out expressing them may indicate a lack of situational awareness, maybe I should start doing some art or something.

I'm not sure my problems are going to get resolved any time soon, however, so I think I would like to get my account deleted or banned or whatever. This'll mean I can listen and gain situational awareness, while not engaging in attention seeking and disruptive behavior. I don't know what I'm going to do about personal authority though...

In the interests of being grateful, I'll say thanks for the sessions and the writing and the info and whatnot, it has helped me IRL.

 

[Buddy]

I think the underdeveloped personal authority one is a big one.

I don't know what I'm going to do about personal authority though...

Maybe start by withdrawing the request for ban or for account cancellation so that there's no pointer to an external reason why you don't post? Then maybe establishing more personal authority could mean just deciding on your own to post according to your best understanding of external consideration? If you do this, who else but you can take credit for it?

I found this while looking for an idea that might help. Here's proof that we CAN re-wire the brain by practicing...

_http://www.dailyliked.net/backwards-brain-bicycle/

 

[Sol Logos]

It's often hard to do but I find it most helpful to begin by noticing whatever comes my way that doesn't go "my" way. Then before jumping to any conclusions, I ask what my part in it was.

For sure everyone else has their part too, but when I focus mostly on that, I end up feeling like a victim. Actually its not my business to change everyone else and I can't anyway, I can only change things for myself, so it makes sense to start first with knowing me and my responsibility in it.

I'm not sure if that's helpful Archaea but its helped me.

 

[casper]

I found this while looking for an idea that might help. Here's proof that we CAN re-wire the brain by practicing...

_http://www.dailyliked.net/backwards-brain-bicycle/

,Thank you for sharing, very interesting, exactly, knowledge is not understanding ;)

 

[Keit]

I'm not sure my problems are going to get resolved any time soon, however, so I think I would like to get my account deleted or banned or whatever. This'll mean I can listen and gain situational awareness, while not engaging in attention seeking and disruptive behavior. I don't know what I'm going to do about personal authority though...

But this way you miss the opportunity to have the best tools that would assist you in this task. ;) Of course it would require you to have a basic self-control and think before posting (Is this post helpful or no more than attention seeking? Were you able to recognize the situation properly? And so on.) But then sometimes we can't really know our own motivations until they are being pointed out to us. This is the strength of the network - that you can use it to calibrate things you do and think. It's like a training ground, a true "Work" environment. In this sense going away or not posting is actually the worse thing you could do if your goal is to work on those issues. And we would be very happy to help you with your journey.

 

[casper]

I'm not sure my problems are going to get resolved any time soon, however, so I think I would like to get my account deleted or banned or whatever..

Problems will always be, the one you'll solve, there will be others.
Every problem is the next step to happiness. This is because every problem carries a lesson and an opportunity to strengthen some qualities that we lack to achieve happiness and success. In addition, most people see the causes of their problems in the external factors, while it is true that the real cause lies in ourselves, and the external factors are only emphasize.
The cause of the problem is each of our some of our flaws that we have not yet overcome the corresponding virtue. To solve the problem we must be willing to admit to himself weaknesses, shortcomings and remove them. Because they are the ones that are in one way or another attracted some trouble and problems. :)

 

[sitting]

I'm not sure my problems are going to get resolved any time soon, however, so I think I would like to get my account deleted or banned or whatever.

Hi Archaea,

That sort of remark is simply more attention getting.

If the desire is to leave ... then leave. There's no point in door slamming (quietly or loud.) But in my opinion, your exit would be a shame, as I've come across some highly insightful stuff in your postings years ago. Truly outstanding commentary.

There lurks within some inner belief that's causing this trouble. It would do you good to dig deep, really deep -- to find out what it is. I suspect it's greatly affecting you in other aspects of life as well. (Andromeda's perceptive observations are a wonderful starting point I think.)

I could be wrong.

FWIW.

 

[Joe]

Hi Archaea, since you've learned a bit from interacting here, maybe leaving would not be the best idea if you aim to achieve your goals. Maybe he best thing would be to stick around and try again. There's no limit on the number of chances you can have as long as you are sincere in your desire to work things out. I understand that it's natural to want to just walk away when problems are presented to you in the clear way that Andromeda presented them, but maybe the little determination and courage needed to keep on trying is what will make all the difference.

 

[Andromeda]

I think the underdeveloped personal authority one is a big one. I think maybe that's another case of splitting, since I do appreciate the moderators, but at the same time I don't. It used to be hard for me to express my feelings, at some point I think I learned to keep them to myself, which I'm sure a lot of people did. I guess going all out expressing them may indicate a lack of situational awareness, maybe I should start doing some art or something.

I'm not sure my problems are going to get resolved any time soon, however, so I think I would like to get my account deleted or banned or whatever. This'll mean I can listen and gain situational awareness, while not engaging in attention seeking and disruptive behavior. I don't know what I'm going to do about personal authority though...

In the interests of being grateful, I'll say thanks for the sessions and the writing and the info and whatnot, it has helped me IRL.

I think this is a very insightful post, Archaea. Except maybe for the part about wanting to be deleted or banned. Maybe that's just the part of you that wants the easy way, or wants reassurance that we don't want you to leave? I don't know. Anyway, we don't want you to leave, but I'm sure you'll let us know your decision about it.

I was thinking about your post and did a search on SOTT to see if there were any good articles that might apply. I found a few and even though a couple are slightly pop psychologyish, there are some clues that I thought were really good and might help a little.

As far as personal authority goes, I think the best thing to do is practice self-control in a healthy way. Not like suppressing your emotions, but learning to express them in an honest and beneficial way. The first step is to recognize that most of your negative emotions (but not all) are set off by something in the present that reminds you of something in the past that hurt you or made you feel bad. If you keep that in mind, you can put things in their proper place and manage how to express yourself better. You don't have to take your frustrations out in the present when, and how, it is not deserving. For instance, you can recognize that something has made you feel needy for attention because it reminds you of a past dynamic where you didn't feel you had enough. The feeling is rooted in the past but you're feeling a reflection of it now. Be honest about it to yourself and to others if necessary and then find a way to appreciate the attention that you DO get and have gotten even if it's not exactly the way you want it, such as fighting. That's the opposite of trying to trick or squeeze attention out of others unconsciously and to the detriment of yourself and others. The same thing goes for when you feel like being jerky because you feel helpless. This kind of honesty with yourself, and the organizing of internal stuff, grows a genuine sense of inner strength.

Also, GIVING cannot be overrated as a way to practice personal authority. If you can create something to give that benefits someone else in a real way, you are definitely not powerless. But you have to learn to give properly, and not just throw whatever at people.

Another thing I thought of was that maybe taking a martial arts class or something similar would be good? It might be difficult for you to find a teacher that you can respect enough, but if you could I think it would be great for you to sort of 'voluntarily submit yourself' to something that is good for you in a safe way. The teacher doesn't have to be a perfect person (idealized parent) but someone who is generally decent and knows their trade. This could help you learn to tell the difference between being controlled or misused and making the decision to let go of rebellion, contrariness, and complete control when YOU CHOOSE TO in order to learn.

Anyway, here are the articles I found:

Mandala Therapy: Anger management method (Doesn't necessarily have to be about anger, can be useful for any feelings)
http://www.sott.net/article/182517-Mandala-Therapy-Anger-management-method

Losing your temper can delay healing (Basically, out of control anger slows healing)
http://www.sott.net/article/149548-Losing-your-temper-can-delay-healing

Appropriately channeled anger proves beneficial to health and relationships (On expressing anger and other neg. emotions in a healthy way. But don't forget that most of your anger really comes from past experiences and will need to be "expressed" psychically toward the deserving person/situation)
http://www.sott.net/article/304549-Appropriately-channeled-anger-proves-beneficial-to-health-and-relationships

Anger Management: Using your 'wrong' hand to stir your tea helps train your self-control (This one is fun and funny. I think it mostly points to being present and aware while practicing your will. The opposite of being automatic)
http://www.sott.net/article/242768-Anger-Management-Using-your-wrong-hand-to-stir-your-tea-helps-train-your-self-control

Researchers show that dwelling on the past negatively impacts self control in the present (Remembering and acknowledging past pain and need has it's place, but don't stay there)
http://www.sott.net/article/301927-Researchers-show-that-dwelling-on-the-past-negatively-impacts-self-control-in-the-present

The neuroscience of gratitude: Small acts of generosity (How generosity and gratitude can create a positive feedback loop to benefit both the giver and receiver)
http://www.sott.net/article/304378-The-neuroscience-of-gratitude-Small-acts-of-generosity

Key to learning: Curiosity linked with psychological, emotional and social benefits (This one is great. But don't forget there is a difference between genuine curiosity and asking questions you think you know the answer to. Must let go of the answers to allow real curiosity!)
http://www.sott.net/article/303321-Key-to-learning-Curiosity-linked-with-psychological-emotional-and-social-benefits

Also, if you haven't read it already, Strangers to Ourselves by Timothy Wilson is a really great book.

 

[Andromeda]

I found this while looking for an idea that might help. Here's proof that we CAN re-wire the brain by practicing...

_http://www.dailyliked.net/backwards-brain-bicycle/

Oh my goodness. That's a great example, Buddy! I would like to try it.

 

[sitting]

Also, GIVING cannot be overrated as a way to practice personal authority. If you can create something to give that benefits someone else ...

I hope C's will forgive my usage of their phrase ... but YES, YES, YES!

And what Archaea can GIVE (and has given) is through respectful - insightful - and sincere postings. In this very forum. Some of his remarks in years past made a strong impression on me. (And perhaps on others as well.) We often forget the import of silent acknowledgements.

My comment to him is:

Do not underestimate your innate abilities. And do not over-estimate what may appear as liabilities. A realistic understanding of both is essential. And "giving" is the true means to spiritual growth & attainment.

I could be wrong.

FWIW.

 

[Andromeda]

And what Archaea can GIVE (and has given) is through respectful - insightful - and sincere postings. In this very forum. Some of his remarks in years past made a strong impression on me. (And perhaps on others as well.) We often forget the import of silent acknowledgements.

Oh, definitely! Just because you make mistakes and have programs doesn't mean you haven't done things of great value for others, or that everything in the past is worthless. The same for all of us. And it's true that you don't always hear about it if you've helped someone. Unfortunately, we more often hear when we've made a mistake! But then, we don't really do everything we do for the praise, but because we care about things, right? And, if you are paying close attention you can often see the positive effects at some point and feel pleased at that.

My comment to him is:

Do not underestimate your innate abilities. And do not over-estimate what may appear as liabilities. A realistic understanding of both is essential. And giving is the true means of growth & attainment.

I could be wrong.

FWIW.

Absolutely agree.