Importance of freedom

[obyvatel]

[size=10pt]Indeed, Muxel.

It was quite a battle to work at freeing myself from those oppressive surrounding which were to a great effect hindering my ability to keep up the work on growing as an individual. You can only imagine the whirlwind of emotions and pretty much a non-stop feeback loop from my family. It was offensive on a daily basis to say the least.

While sometimes it can be useful to look for external freedom from truly oppressive situations, as stated earlier in the thread, it is internal freedom which is the deeper goal. Internal freedom is about being free from the mechanical reactions that are generated in us from our surroundings. While an admirable goal, it is usually involves a long and hard process. While on this path, there is an almost inevitable impulse to immediately fix what is seen as an undesirable reaction in response to the surrounding environment. One either wants to change the environment or to change the self immediately so that the feeling of discomfort goes away. However, the Work is composed of intentional suffering - which would include observing and suffering the current state of being that we are in without judgment or self-pity. From such suffering, the lesson inherent in the situation becomes clear and then there may arise creative solutions.

Something to keep in mind in general - not necessarily applicable to the specific context of your situation with family.

fwiw

 

[Alice17]

My reason for this posting is that it was intended to get the feedback of people who look for a deeper form of freedom, that is within us, and must be attained through hard work on oneself. Although, the importance of external freedom goes a long way, too.

Thank you for starting this thread CelticWarrior as it pertains very much to some recent personal experiences of my own, although different circumstances, and the comments posted are invaluable. I hope that these past few months have given you the lessons and understanding require at this point in your life. I really do believe that if you ask a question honestly enough your life becomes the answer.

The Work can be done in place by seeking to be able to observe the self. But, G. also recommends that one be a good obyvatel, a good householder, or rather one who can conduct ones worldly affairs in a functional manner, before entering The Work.

This is point that I find difficulty balancing in my life. All of the demands of survival in the situation I find myself in require a great deal of my attention. Contraints on my time, demands on my physical energy, mental focus, and emotional responses keep me quite occupied. However, it is in the middle those situations that I am able to sometimes possibly notice myself and, mostly later, reflect on my behaviors and reactions to the situation around me. It's somewhere in the meeting of my awareness of my reactions to the circumstance I find myself in that I am able to begin to asses what it is that I am really experiencing. And it's rarely pretty these days.

And then the questions arise, what steps could I have taken that would have possibly led me to another point at this time? Why did I make those choices? Why am I making the choices I am making RIGHT NOW?

And then there is this...

Freedom doesn't really play a part in this because there is no freedom. Everything happens.

So is there really even a choice to be made? Or am I merely drifting along on a current of event after event that has led me to here?

I will be honest and say that I can't even begin to comprehend what it means to strive for "true freedom".

However, the Work is composed of intentional suffering - which would include observing and suffering the current state of being that we are in without judgment or self-pity. From such suffering, the lesson inherent in the situation becomes clear and then there may arise creative solutions.

"Without judgment or self pity." Thank you obyvatel for so clearly stating something I have been struggling with for some time. I hope to eventually find some creative solutions.

 

[Buddy]

However, the Work is composed of intentional suffering - which would include observing and suffering the current state of being that we are in without judgment or self-pity. From such suffering, the lesson inherent in the situation becomes clear and then there may arise creative solutions.

"Without judgment or self pity." Thank you obyvatel for so clearly stating something I have been struggling with for some time. I hope to eventually find some creative solutions.

Hi Alice17. I ran across a particular you-tube video the other day. The narrator was doing a sort of ad-hoc presentation of working dopamine pathways in the brain. I was reminded of Laura's presentation of the "do it again pleasure center" as related to addiction and whatnot. The video itself is not really that important, but what struck me most was the very last statement the guy made before the video ended. He said "What you do when you get up from your computer, is whatever produces the most dopamine."

For the average person that is most likely very true and also useful. One of the ideas meant by the expression "do what IT doesn't want to do" relates to intentional suffering involved with deliberately going against repetitive behaviors and other habit patterns that keep us feeling comfortable - even in undesirable circumstances. Breaking some comfortable habit patterns can have a sort of "withdrawal effect" like with a drug addiction. IOW, it may sometimes feel unpleasant, but not in a life-threatening way. Visceral feedback that informs you with the knowledge that you actually can exercise more control than you thought you could can give you a little bit of that 'freedom' feeling, OSIT. That could be motivating. :)

 

[CelticWarrior]

While sometimes it can be useful to look for external freedom from truly oppressive situations, as stated earlier in the thread, it is internal freedom which is the deeper goal. ...usually involves a long and hard process... However, the Work is composed of intentional suffering - which would include observing and suffering the current state of being that we are in without judgment or self-pity. From such suffering, the lesson inherent in the situation becomes clear and then there may arise creative solutions.

Something to keep in mind in general - not necessarily applicable to the specific context of your situation with family.

fwiw

Very insightful, Obyvatel. However, I neglected to mention in any earlier posts that after putting up with such undesirable behaviours and my own reactions to those situations, that there was infact a lot of inward observation while journaling how I reacted and taking notice of what to do in order to overcome those mechanical factors that were driving me to challenge the situations with emotional outbursts. Until after quite some years, I found it was very necessary to be on my own, and of course, who doesn't want to live independently and have their own space to sing, dance, live without being subjected to ridiculous persons who cannot undo their subjective tunnel-vision, and deeply embeded mechanical behaviours that are beyond stubborn. I would say it was my goal to, in fact, to have that intentional suffering and use it to my advantage so that I may carry the experience with me when I moved into my own home sweet home. Afterall, it's not just about the outcome but the journey itself that makes everything very... interesting. Thanks for making me think about observing and the lessons of creative solutions. :)

 

[CelticWarrior]

Thank you for starting this thread CelticWarrior as it pertains very much to some recent personal experiences of my own, although different circumstances, and the comments posted are invaluable. I hope that these past few months have given you the lessons and understanding require at this point in your life. I really do believe that if you ask a question honestly enough your life becomes the answer.

I'm glad I started it, too. Yes, I agree that asking honest questions to yourself, and of course, to others so that they may reflect and give objective feedback, is seriously a great thing to have and appreciate. Well, I mean it's necessary to be in the company of those who will care enough to help you see the truth in yourself and truly awaken. As for the past few months, I've gotten new challenges to face in my new home, and experiences to write down, and using creative solutions as Obyvatel mentioned.

This is point that I find difficulty balancing in my life. All of the demands of survival in the situation I find myself in require a great deal of my attention. Contraints on my time, demands on my physical energy, mental focus, and emotional responses keep me quite occupied. However, it is in the middle those situations that I am able to sometimes possibly notice myself and, mostly later, reflect on my behaviors and reactions to the situation around me. It's somewhere in the meeting of my awareness of my reactions to the circumstance I find myself in that I am able to begin to asses what it is that I am really experiencing. And it's rarely pretty these days.

And then the questions arise, what steps could I have taken that would have possibly led me to another point at this time? Why did I make those choices? Why am I making the choices I am making RIGHT NOW?

And then there is this...

Freedom doesn't really play a part in this because there is no freedom. Everything happens.

So is there really even a choice to be made? Or am I merely drifting along on a current of event after event that has led me to here?

I will be honest and say that I can't even begin to comprehend what it means to strive for "true freedom".

Alice 17, you are never drifting along on a current as long as you are doing the necessary work in order to attain such freedom inwardly. It's rare indeed. Not many are willing to work hard on seeing their true natures and wanting very much to change them with a lof of objective mirroring. It's quite refreshing to know that you are on here and are posting your questions as I'm sure enough that we have all thought about these ideas in our daily lives. Struggling with yourself can be quite the challenge, but in my opinion, it's worth it since it can produce the intentional suffering you'll need in order to achieve real results. I hope you are journaling, it really does play a huge role in observing your actions after they have, well, happened

 

[Sol Logos]

Interesting thread thanks for the insights. I've done some type of what you call journalling before. This method came from an AJ Miller talk about uncovering the deeper emotions. So each day you write down all the little annoyances or frustrations, even anger but we often don't let ourselves get angry that much. So this is on an anger column. Then next to that you write what might be the corresponding fears associated with each on the “anger “column under a new “fear”column.

So say for example my annoyance was about working with a person on autopilot, someone extremely fixed in their ways that says something like "you have to do it like that because that's the procedure!" And what if the “procedure” was illogical and I'd do it much better my own way
etc. So there's the annoyance in me in this situation, I might be annoyed I have to work with ignorant people for example. So what’s the fear there? I might be afraid that I’d get into trouble or that others might see me as a problem – so I’m really afraid of being reprimanded or afraid of other people not liking me. I’d write that down on the “fear “column.

Then the last column is a “need / desire” column, which is basically stating what need isn’t met or what I’m not doing as a consequence of having these particular fears. In this instance maybe I’d have just said what I believe or even go to management and tell them how I could do things better by not following the procedure. So my need might be to be heard and I just want to say what’s on my mind or I may have a need to contribute and so I desire to help implement or create better systems of doing things.

To go a bit deeper - why the process starts with my anger, then fear and only then what the need or desire not met under all this is - is because I want to know the deeper need / desire. There’s plenty of other desires like getting drunk or maybe something more sinister like beating up these ignorant people etc. But these are reactionary to the anger and fear, but that’s not helpful to me as I’m seeking to know why all these frustrations and fears are there and work on releasing them.

Master Yoda says this best:

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering”

So now equipped with knowing what I really want to be doing, the exercise is to go and do it. At that point I notice my whole comfort bubble bursts and it’s that comfort bubble that’s usually a good indication for me that my growth and learning has also stagnated.

I came across a great quote from Paul Misiunas yesterday about how illogical it really is to seek these comfort bubbles we like to call home. I feel it’s really spot on:

“In the closure of the door to constant awareness we tend to find that the comfort and safety of our little corner of the universe to be completely acceptable. Why change what we find to be suitable to our sense of self? In so becoming we find being and as the ocean expresses itself as a flowing upon the sands of time we live life until that eventual moment when the tide turns and the sands give up the life previously bestowed. The ebb and flow of potential sets and leaves no footprints so what then becomes the purpose of finding home? In tracking the false images of thought it can be made to appear that one is making progress but in fact just because one looks in the mirror and sees one’s self doesn’t mean that one is enlightened to any degree. That which is seen is that which we see. Making up a good story to go along with it is just another tale being told in a world full of tales”

So it’s not just about seeing me accurately but acting on the realisations I have from the process that really starts the growth. I’ve noticed that coming to this forum helps me to break my comfort bubble. Thumbs up!

 

[StrangeCaptain]

So is there really even a choice to be made? Or am I merely drifting along on a current of event after event that has led me to here?

I think the answer to these questions for many of us are no and yes, respectively. I don't want to give this as a definitive answer, but in the sense of being in the stage where we understand that we are completely identified with our mechanical natures, i.e. the shifting of our personalities from one I to another according to the prevailing external influence. Because of this realization, it seems to me that the I's that we are familiar with have not made a choice to be here.

About 2/3 of the way through chapter 17 of "In Search of The Miraculous," Gurdjieff is quoted as saying

There is not and there cannot be any choice of the people who come into touch with the 'ways.' In other words, nobody selects them, they select themselves, partly by accident and partly by having a certain hunger. Whoever is without this hunger cannot be helped by accident. And whoever has this hunger very strongly can be brought by accident to the beginning of a way in spite of all unfavorable circumstances.

And soon afterwards...

A man, if he is hungry, has a chance to come into contact with the beginning of a way.

The discussion afterwards is oft-quoted in this forum as Gurdjieff discusses the "good obvyatel" as the type of person who is most likely to be able to assign proper value to a way once it has been found.

 

[CelticWarrior]

So is there really even a choice to be made? Or am I merely drifting along on a current of event after event that has led me to here?

I think the answer to these questions for many of us are no and yes, respectively. I don't want to give this as a definitive answer, but in the sense of being in the stage where we understand that we are completely identified with our mechanical natures, i.e. the shifting of our personalities from one I to another according to the prevailing external influence. Because of this realization, it seems to me that the I's that we are familiar with have not made a choice to be here.

About 2/3 of the way through chapter 17 of "In Search of The Miraculous," Gurdjieff is quoted as saying

There is not and there cannot be any choice of the people who come into touch with the 'ways.' In other words, nobody selects them, they select themselves, partly by accident and partly by having a certain hunger. Whoever is without this hunger cannot be helped by accident. And whoever has this hunger very strongly can be brought by accident to the beginning of a way in spite of all unfavorable circumstances.

And soon afterwards...

A man, if he is hungry, has a chance to come into contact with the beginning of a way.

The discussion afterwards is oft-quoted in this forum as Gurdjieff discusses the "good obvyatel" as the type of person who is most likely to be able to assign proper value to a way once it has been found.

I'd be lost without the hunger. And of course, my beginning like most to the 'ways' is by accident since certain people I have interacted with in life have had similar conflicts with their mechanical natures and sought to do something about them.

I have to add a quote from Gurdjieff that has been on my mind all this time throughout this topic of "importance of freedom", and based upon the conditions in aquiring man's hidden posibilities:

"The fourth way requires no retirement into the desert, does not require a man to give up and renounce everything by which he formerly lived... a man must be prepared for the fourth way and this prepartation must be acquired in ordinary life, and be a serious one embracing many different sides. Furthermore a man must be living in conditions favorable for work on the fourth way, or, in any case, in conditions which do not render it impossible."

And of course, he says: "...it has to be found." Again, it's something that needs that 'hunger' otherwise it cannot exist without it and progress has to be made with conscious effort.