In Spain, now...

[loreta]

This is a little video from Portugal where we can see some manifestation against austerity. New income taxes are coming for them, new payments, people, like in Spain, have enough. It is interesting to see that the violence is not as hard then in Spain but it is a "little" more then before...

http://www.tvi24.iol.pt/videos/video/13720059/1

 

[caballero reyes]

Hi, Loreta.

Do you think independence would end the crisis in Catalunya?

 

[loreta]

Hi, Loreta.

Do you think independence would end the crisis in Catalunya?

Hi Caballero, I am not an expert about this subject but my impression is that there will never, ever be an independent Catalonia. They are talking in huge quantities of this theme in radios, tv, journals... but I think that Catalonia now is a genre of scapegoat and then instead of talking of the REAL problems they talk about Catalonia. The fact is that all the country here is crumbling, socially, economically, politically. The PTB need a scapegoat, someone to put a finger on: Catalans. Franco hated Catalonia. Maybe this anger for Catalonia is sub-conscious. But everyone is talking bad about Catalonia.

The Basque country is the most intelligent region of this country: they control their money and what they do with their money. Catalonia wanted the same thing. But I doubt. I don't live in Catalonia anymore so I don't know how the situation on the streets are. I imagine that Catalans want the independence but they are manipulated by the PTB, in that case Arthur Mass.

I start to think that Spaniards are all anarchists. That's what one of my teacher of South American literature told me years ago. I did not understand him at that time. Now I start to understand. I asked one of my friends if this can be true, that all Spaniards are, in their core, anarchists. He answer that yes, they are. Impossible to control, and always with a multitude of parties, organizations, visions of the world but impossible also to work all in the same direction. (Surely my point of vue is subjective or influenced by my reading about the Civil War... But what was cut drastically in those years seems to reborn now. Very strange to see this! :) )

Sorry if I was long, Caballero.

 

[MK Scarlett]

Hi, Loreta.

Do you think independence would end the crisis in Catalunya?

Hi Caballero, I am not an expert about this subject but my impression is that there will never, ever be an independent Catalonia. They are talking in huge quantities of this theme in radios, tv, journals... but I think that Catalonia now is a genre of scapegoat and then instead of talking of the REAL problems they talk about Catalonia. The fact is that all the country here is crumbling, socially, economically, politically. The PTB need a scapegoat, someone to put a finger on: Catalans. Franco hated Catalonia. Maybe this anger for Catalonia is sub-conscious. But everyone is talking bad about Catalonia.

The Basque country is the most intelligent region of this country: they control their money and what they do with their money. Catalonia wanted the same thing. But I doubt. I don't live in Catalonia anymore so I don't know how the situation on the streets are. I imagine that Catalans want the independence but they are manipulated by the PTB, in that case Arthur Mass.

I start to think that Spaniards are all anarchists. That's what one of my teacher of South American literature told me years ago. I did not understand him at that time. Now I start to understand. I asked one of my friends if this can be true, that all Spaniards are, in their core, anarchists. He answer that yes, they are. Impossible to control, and always with a multitude of parties, organizations, visions of the world but impossible also to work all in the same direction. (Surely my point of vue is subjective or influenced by my reading about the Civil War... But what was cut drastically in those years seems to reborn now. Very strange to see this! :) )

Sorry if I was long, Caballero.

This is trully interesting loreta, thank you for sharing! More food for thoughts... ;)

 

[caballero reyes]

If the Basque country control their money and what they do with their money. Do you mean the Basque country is on track to become independent?

About anarchy, not only Spain, I think the world is becoming anarchic, why there is so much turmoil in many countries, also in Mexico; but from the chaos, the stars are born.

 

[loreta]

If the Basque country control their money and what they do with their money. Do you mean the Basque country is on track to become independent?

About anarchy, not only Spain, I think the world is becoming anarchic, why there is so much turmoil in many countries, also in Mexico; but from the chaos, the stars are born.

I don't think the basques are asking now for the independence even if they feel very different from the rest of Spaniards. But you know, with the Catalans wanting the Independence maybe others provinces will ask the same. Before the civil war it happened. So maybe we will see the same pattern?

All the kids of the seniors of this village where I live are in the Basque region. They emigrated there during the hard times of Franco because over there they found work. It is a very interesting region and well organized, rich. But the economic situation is coming there also, less then in other regions but finally they will be touched as the others. I think they are having elections very soon.

Franco was very hard against Catalans, harder than with others. I have to read more about this. There is an extraordinary book about the Catalans, a not very known novel but it won the Gongourt Prize in 1967, in fact it is one of the most tragic novel I ever read: La Marge by André Pieyre de Mandiargues In Spanish it is called Al Margen. This is the link to information about this strange and almost unknown writer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9_Pieyre_de_Mandiargues

In English the novel have the title The Margin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Margin_(novel)

If I make noise with all this information please tell me. But for me everything is linked and literature and cinema can sometimes explain a situation better than anything else. In that case, this novel makes you understand what it was to live in Catalonia under the Franco's regime. Now Franco is not there anymore but the claims of Catalans are older than Franco himself and as new that a new born.

 

[Gertrudes]

Yesterday I went to Portugal in a little city that makes frontier with Spain, Fuentes de Oroño. I go there to buy sweet potatoes because I don't find them in Spain. I talked with a man about the economic situation. This man have a big store (but empty). He told me how difficult life is now for Portuguese. Now the government, he told me, wanted to pass a new law: they want to impose a new tax for every house or apartment owners. He said: "If people don't have money to eat, how come they will have money for this tax!" More than angry he was sad. Very gentle man.

True. My husbands' parents called two weeks ago and told us that they will likely have to leave the house they have lived in for 40 years! They are renting, and because of that tax, the rent price will have to increase beyond what the can afford. Adding to that, because the salary cuts each of them earns 100Euros less a month then they did 8 years ago. NOT good. They do have a plan b, as well as help from us and other family members when needed, but still, what about those without any help? This gives us a very grim perspective of the future...

Both me and my husband are Portuguese living in UK, and we would like to go back but frankly, if we're right at the axis of evil here, back home we would likely be jobless. Two of my cousins have now been jobless for over 18 months and are no longer entitled to any allowances.
The irony is that you have fantasy departments being created by our government in order to justify the outrageous commissions given to people belonging to said "departments". And I mean, OUTRAGEOUS, those with many, many digits.
If the situation weren't so sad and revolting, you could almost laugh when reading the names of said departments. Our agriculture, for example, is non existent, our farmers have long been payed not to produce. However, we have millions of euros being yearly payed to subsidiaries belonging to agricultural departments. There are PLENTY more of such examples, but I'll stop here before I start fuming real bad.

 

[Voyageur]

[quote author=loreta]

Franco was very hard against Catalans, harder than with others. I have to read more about this.

There is an extraordinary book about the Catalans, a not very known novel but it won the Gongourt Prize in 1967, in fact it is one of the most tragic novel I ever read: La Marge by André Pieyre de Mandiargues In Spanish it is called Al Margen. This is the link to information about this strange and almost unknown writer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9_Pieyre_de_Mandiargues

In English the novel have the title The Margin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Margin_(novel)
[/quote]

Don't know how extensive it was, however, it seems to me that the Chathars had close relations historically (lived/traveled/conversed) with people of Catalonia and Aragon. Wonder the links remaining today - blood links? Maybe that is why Franco, too, "was very hard against the Catalans"?

 

[David Topi]

If the Basque country control their money and what they do with their money. Do you mean the Basque country is on track to become independent?

About anarchy, not only Spain, I think the world is becoming anarchic, why there is so much turmoil in many countries, also in Mexico; but from the chaos, the stars are born.

Not exactly, the Basque country and Navarra, both got their economic privileges when they signed some treaty back in late 1800s, so they manage all their taxes and give back an specific sum to Madrid to contribute to the general wellfare of the country. This makes the Basque Country and Navarra two of the most viable and independent, economically speaking, regions of Spain. Catalonia just wants the same.


However, in this case, the independence claims are also a mask to cover all the corruption that the goverment of CiU (the party in power) has had for many years. They have now the perfect excuse to unite all catalans against spanish, and everybody has forgotten all the cases of abuse and corruption they had in the last years. I am so sick of those manipulations. It is extremely unlike that Catalans will get their independence from Spain, despite 1.5 million people asking for that in the street few weeks ago (there was a pro-spanish demostration and only a few thousand showed up). Society is being manipulated in catalonia, there is nothing on the regional TV but this topic. I live in Barcelona, which is the less "catalan" of the four provinces and I am not looking at the regional TV anymore.


But as Loreta said, they need something to distract the attention of other stuff, so ignating the nationalist feeling and putting all the focus on it just seems to work for the majority of the people. I have so many friends just tweeting every nationalist claim and every hate against Madrid that I do not recognise them anymore. It is just incredible incredible.

 

[Tristan]

[quote author=loreta]

Franco was very hard against Catalans, harder than with others. I have to read more about this.

There is an extraordinary book about the Catalans, a not very known novel but it won the Gongourt Prize in 1967, in fact it is one of the most tragic novel I ever read: La Marge by André Pieyre de Mandiargues In Spanish it is called Al Margen. This is the link to information about this strange and almost unknown writer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9_Pieyre_de_Mandiargues

In English the novel have the title The Margin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Margin_(novel)

Don't know how extensive it was, however, it seems to me that the Chathars had close relations historically (lived/traveled/conversed) with people of Catalonia and Aragon. Wonder the links remaining today - blood links? Maybe that is why Franco, too, "was very hard against the Catalans"?
[/quote]

Interesting thought IMHO since I've come to a similar conclusion; Franco may not come to annihilate the Catalans and culture by itself and his forces however was very heavily influenced by a deep rooted feeling ie the catalonophobia and this feeling could come from those time and remained till now

 

[loreta]

Yesterday I went to Portugal in a little city that makes frontier with Spain, Fuentes de Oroño. I go there to buy sweet potatoes because I don't find them in Spain. I talked with a man about the economic situation. This man have a big store (but empty). He told me how difficult life is now for Portuguese. Now the government, he told me, wanted to pass a new law: they want to impose a new tax for every house or apartment owners. He said: "If people don't have money to eat, how come they will have money for this tax!" More than angry he was sad. Very gentle man.

True. My husbands' parents called two weeks ago and told us that they will likely have to leave the house they have lived in for 40 years! They are renting, and because of that tax, the rent price will have to increase beyond what the can afford. Adding to that, because the salary cuts each of them earns 100Euros less a month then they did 8 years ago. NOT good. They do have a plan b, as well as help from us and other family members when needed, but still, what about those without any help? This gives us a very grim perspective of the future...

Both me and my husband are Portuguese living in UK, and we would like to go back but frankly, if we're right at the axis of evil here, back home we would likely be jobless. Two of my cousins have now been jobless for over 18 months and are no longer entitled to any allowances.
The irony is that you have fantasy departments being created by our government in order to justify the outrageous commissions given to people belonging to said "departments". And I mean, OUTRAGEOUS, those with many, many digits.
If the situation weren't so sad and revolting, you could almost laugh when reading the names of said departments. Our agriculture, for example, is non existent, our farmers have long been payed not to produce. However, we have millions of euros being yearly payed to subsidiaries belonging to agricultural departments. There are PLENTY more of such examples, but I'll stop here before I start fuming real bad.

I am very sorry for your country and your family. In these countries, Portugal, Greece, Spain, it seems to me there is no light at the end of the tunnel. It is horrible! But people are angry. And anger is a very potent emotion. It can be very destructive. While the politicians don't care at all. It makes me mad.

Today I went to a friend and we listened to the news. I don't have tv at home in big part because the news, some years ago, made me really angry so I decided to be angry with other more interesting issues. So today I listened the news and they made me angry, again. We saw a big manifestation in Madrid with people who are against the hard measures. Intelligent people, aware people, a lot of students, teachers, fathers and mothers... That was ok. but just after this news they put another news about stupid students that are doing some parties for the beginning of their course. They do that a propos like saying: look what kind of students are against the government. And then we saw some African immigrants that arrived today in a boat, they were seen like savages. I mean, the news were showing them in that light. So anger, sadness, and much more is always there when I listen some news in tvs. This is really, really disgusting.

Concerning the Catalans I have to read much more. At home, a Catalan family, it was very dangerous to talk about politics, history, etc. Dangerous in the sense that these subjects were forbidden and it is interesting to try to find the why of this. Also, when Franco was in power it was forbidden to talk Catalan on the streets and at home nobody talked about this interdiction. One of my grand-mother was very Catalanist and it is too bad that she is not here anymore to ask her questions. I have an aunt that is in love with the Socialist Party, unaware of the extremely corruption of this party. Everyone almost has been manipulated with lies. And trying to tell members of my family some things about this is impossible. Hopefully they live very far away. ;)

 

[loreta]

Our government is becoming really, really fascist. Worst, in a sense, than Franco. Ok. lets see the new reform that they wanted to put in march:

*** Occupy a branch of a bank: 6 months of prison.

*** To interrupt the public transportation: up to 2 years of prison.

*** Defy the authorities: up to 4 years of prison because it can be seen as a "terrorist" act.

*** Assault a politician (it can be also to attack a policeman) up to 6 years of prison because in that case also it can be interpreted as an act of "terrorism".

*** Put or give information in the public medias (read the Web) about meetings that disrupt public order (read manifestations...), up to 1 year of prison.


So now, my friends, let me go and take a good cigarette. I need calm.

Edit: Here the information in Spanish plus a little video.

http://www.lasexta.com/noticias/nacional/gobierno-pretende-frenar-indignados-golpe-reforma-penal_2012101700174.html

 

[MK Scarlett]

Our government is becoming really, really fascist. Worst, in a sense, than Franco. Ok. lets see the new reform that they wanted to put in march:

*** Occupy a branch of a bank: 6 months of prison.

*** To interrupt the public transportation: up to 2 years of prison.

*** Defy the authorities: up to 4 years of prison because it can be seen as a "terrorist" act.

*** Assault a politician (it can be also to attack a policeman) up to 6 years of prison because in that case also it can be interpreted as an act of "terrorism".

*** Put or give information in the public medias (read the Web) about meetings that disrupt public order (read manifestations...), up to 1 year of prison.


So now, my friends, let me go and take a good cigarette. I need calm.

Edit: Here the information in Spanish plus a little video.

http://www.lasexta.com/noticias/nacional/gobierno-pretende-frenar-indignados-golpe-reforma-penal_2012101700174.html

Oh my! This is extremly disturbing, as you said!

The World is really going worse and they obviously are producting a close-futur hell. It is already for many of us, but tomorrow we will all be touched by these kind of decisions in Europe. We should consider it is against us and not only against the others. I do not really know how much time people here and there will need to be able to understand what is going on here! Surely when these reforms will come knock their door.

The only way for us, for all of us, everywhere in the world or almost, that is to stay at home for at least one week. What does it mean? Stay home, not go to work, not go to shopping, not go to visit doctors (maybe except for an emergency, it could be a bad example), not go to school, not use the public transportations, not use car, train, plane, not go to the museum, NOTHING! Maybe for those who live near the country, they could do some walks, but nothing which could make work the "machine".

I guess that in one week we would have won. Just one week, let's think about it.

Without forget the fact, that we would not need to go down the streets and finally receive hurts and teargas from the collaborationist cops. Did you ear the same sound than sionist?

 

[loreta]

Mk Scarlett I think it is a good idea to be at home during a week. That reminds me something that happened in Spain long time ago during Franco regime: they raised the price of the tickets of bus and tranvias (a kind of electric train transportation, like those in Lisbon) and every one, I mean everyone refused to take any kind of transportation at all. So you had people who had to walk maybe during 3 hours to go to work, for example. After a week or so the prices of the tickets returned to the normality. There you have an example of what we can do against the system. But: people have to do it. And more and more I think about this idea more and more I think it can work. Why this excellent idea is not put on people by the leaders of the anti-system movements? Maybe because these leaders of these movements are bought? Something to think about. Because in the end, these manifestations wont change anything.

 

[MK Scarlett]

Mk Scarlett I think it is a good idea to be at home during a week. That reminds me something that happened in Spain long time ago during Franco regime: they raised the price of the tickets of bus and tranvias (a kind of electric train transportation, like those in Lisbon) and every one, I mean everyone refused to take any kind of transportation at all. So you had people who had to walk maybe during 3 hours to go to work, for example. After a week or so the prices of the tickets returned to the normality. There you have an example of what we can do against the system. But: people have to do it. And more and more I think about this idea more and more I think it can work. Why this excellent idea is not put on people by the leaders of the anti-system movements? Maybe because these leaders of these movements are bought? Something to think about.

They might be bought you're right, and also too indoctrinated to try to think by themselves.

Because in the end, these manifestations wont change anything.

Nope, they will not change anything, you're right here too. It is like if people would need to become as some revolutionars, as if they had this in their blood, as if this blood was heating up, for a part of them at least. But this part could be able to lead one manifestation which could become one of the most worse reprisals against a population. Act without think.