PerihelionX
Padawan Learner
Thanks for all the replies. I'm going to have to read up on states of awareness.
Induced Lucid Dreaming
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realitybugll
Jedi Council Member
fundamentally the aim of all ancient schools is the aim to develop these bodies the way I understand it starting with the astral.
but when you are using certain artificial methods maybe you are getting a faulty connection... I believe I have had this faulty connection. Gurdjieff says you are not born with a soul - that you have to develop the additional bodies starting with the 2nd. and this is by the foods (material, air, impressions) helping to crystalize it..
when I had the OoBE I was having a lot of work and struggle 4 years ago.. so that could have been a sort of catalyst which induced my experiences for three mornings in 1 week. but before that I was practicing methods and having frequent lucid dreams.. and I may not have had the experiences beforehand without practicing methods..
I do think better than practicing methods we should strive to develop self observation.. attention span, meditation etc..
it's true we can maybe be very productive with OoBE. but we can also be production in waking life which is 2/3 of life. sometimes both may go hand in hand that is my opinion. OoBE is a human experience a "higher experience" it could serve as inspiration for work.
But there is wrong crystallization which gurdjieff talked about. If you practice "methods" and negate real life - it is probably this wrong crystallization. But if you have a firm grip on waking life then maybe you can do this and it is natural thing. surely a lot of people have an interest in OoBE and I don't think it is an inherently destructive interest.
but when you are using certain artificial methods maybe you are getting a faulty connection... I believe I have had this faulty connection. Gurdjieff says you are not born with a soul - that you have to develop the additional bodies starting with the 2nd. and this is by the foods (material, air, impressions) helping to crystalize it..
when I had the OoBE I was having a lot of work and struggle 4 years ago.. so that could have been a sort of catalyst which induced my experiences for three mornings in 1 week. but before that I was practicing methods and having frequent lucid dreams.. and I may not have had the experiences beforehand without practicing methods..
I do think better than practicing methods we should strive to develop self observation.. attention span, meditation etc..
it's true we can maybe be very productive with OoBE. but we can also be production in waking life which is 2/3 of life. sometimes both may go hand in hand that is my opinion. OoBE is a human experience a "higher experience" it could serve as inspiration for work.
But there is wrong crystallization which gurdjieff talked about. If you practice "methods" and negate real life - it is probably this wrong crystallization. But if you have a firm grip on waking life then maybe you can do this and it is natural thing. surely a lot of people have an interest in OoBE and I don't think it is an inherently destructive interest.
shellycheval
The Living Force
timmyman
drugs, self induced chemical changes through excessive exercise/meditation, OBEs, etc., interfere with our ability to be "present" physically, mentally, and spiritually.
It is being present aka self-aware that is required to make progress in The Work, and to stay on the narrow path toward, "enlightenment" if you will, and a better
understanding of objective reality--truth.
shellycheval
Others can probably give more detail as I am pressed for time this morning, but my understanding is that "experiences" that are reality altering, like
drugs, self induced chemical changes through excessive exercise/meditation, OBEs, etc., interfere with our ability to be "present" physically, mentally, and spiritually.
It is being present aka self-aware that is required to make progress in The Work, and to stay on the narrow path toward, "enlightenment" if you will, and a better
understanding of objective reality--truth.
shellycheval
timmyman said:
When you chase experiences you are making a prejudgment that the present experiences are "unworthy" of you. This is untrue and is self-importance in action. The Work is about working with what we are given. Learn to walk before you can run. When you are ready the experiences will come to you.
Zadius Sky
The Living Force
timmyman said:
I wouldn't classify "chasing experiences" as good or bad. Anyone who's not involved in the Work can do what they want, but those who are needs to be aware that trying to alter one's reality (lucid dreaming, etc.) as a way to "gain" experiences drives one further into dream of the "past" (subjective) and away from the reality (objective).
Here's a thread on why phenomenon chasing is detrimental to the Work (with links of examples provided):
https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=23283.0
In regards to lucid dreaming, the C's said that it can be "useful for entertainment mainly" (Session 03 Sept 2008).
Just saw RedFox's post. :)
anart
A Disturbance in the Force
That depends, and, as always, the devil is in the details. If they have an interest to have the experience itself and nothing more, that is really pure STS - it's 'desire' and trying to bend things to ones will - trying to 'make it happen'. The reality is that OOBEs and lucid dreams are a normal part of human experience and they happen as they happen. Most of my dreams are "lucid" according to how these people who push the "lucid dreaming experience" define it. Big deal! It's just dreaming to me and just what happens naturally. I've also had what is defined as 'out of body experiences'. Big deal! That's just part of human experience and it's my suspicion that a lot of people experience that and just can't bring it back to conscious recall, so they don't 'remember' it, which is why some people think it's such a "big deal". It's not.wetroof said:
What is a big deal is learning how to master ones mental and emotional states - learning how to BE and, in that, becoming what we can only define as immortal - the real Work - that's a big deal because it could be the reason we are here (the alternative reason being just to be "food for the Moon") and accomplishing it is such a vanishingly rare thing. I'd get a LOT more excited about being the master of my own mental/emotional states (I'm not currently) than I ever would about the fact that most of my dreams are "lucid" or that I've occasionally recalled out of body experiences - like I said - big deal. Compared to actually accomplishing the kind of self-mastery necessary to escape this time loop and help others do the same, the whole lucid dream and OOBE subject is all nonsense. This is, of course, just my personal understanding, fwiw.
timmyman
Padawan Learner
Thank you so much for clearing all that up :)
as for experience chasing in my account. It is what got me started down on this path in the first place. It was the quest to find god. I now of course know better but i still can not deny that it was experience chasing with all that is bad about it (drugs, extreme lifestyle, living recklessly, you name it) that got me where i am today. So in a sense you need the bad to see the good?
as for experience chasing in my account. It is what got me started down on this path in the first place. It was the quest to find god. I now of course know better but i still can not deny that it was experience chasing with all that is bad about it (drugs, extreme lifestyle, living recklessly, you name it) that got me where i am today. So in a sense you need the bad to see the good?
PerihelionX
Padawan Learner
I remember that the Cs once said that curiosity in it's pure form is a spiritual function. I think genuine curiosity toward any subject can be fruitful.
Curiosity is not supposed to circumvent good judgement.
It may be argued that the Cassiopaean experiment is comparably dangerous to astral projection, and that curiosity played a part in it. But Laura has the knowledge and knows what she's doing. You don't plunge into the jungle without adequate supplies and an understanding of it, unless you expect to be eaten. Is that the curiosity you're wishing to satisfy?
Laura has a long list of books anyone who wants to attempt channeling should read. Maybe you should consider them?
It may be argued that the Cassiopaean experiment is comparably dangerous to astral projection, and that curiosity played a part in it. But Laura has the knowledge and knows what she's doing. You don't plunge into the jungle without adequate supplies and an understanding of it, unless you expect to be eaten. Is that the curiosity you're wishing to satisfy?
Laura has a long list of books anyone who wants to attempt channeling should read. Maybe you should consider them?
realitybugll
Jedi Council Member
okay, I believe this is a well reasoned approach. I also think people have a similar experience perhaps at other levels of awareness. but when it filters down to ordinary consciousness it is a particular event which must have some mechanism. I'm still too attached to dreaming and OoBE to call it nonsense though. For Laura - communication with the C's was part of her personal work? so not experience chasing. and I believe that at least one guy (Robert Monroe) has had communication with 6th density entities through astral projection which he calls Inspecs (intelligent species).
anart
A Disturbance in the Force
wr said:
It shows, but it's good that you recognize that. Really, though, being attached to dreaming and oobes is no different than being attached to yawning or eating, since both are also normal human functions. Identification is identification and its base is always - always - illusion.
wetroof said:
It's not at all comparable, and I think you know that. Laura engaged in a critical channeling experiment over many years, with the vast majority of her effort focused on nuts and bolts research - you really can't get farther away from OOBEs and lucid dreaming than that - in fact, I'd say that the two are diametrically opposed.
wr said:
Anyone can say anything...
SeekingtheTruth
Jedi
The very first experience I had with lucid type dreaming ( that I remember) was when I was four years old. What I've learned is
1. It may be used as a forum for disinformation
2. It may also be used as a forum for learning about ones assumptions. There appears to be a feedback loop between assumption and the dream's "physical laws". Thus, it may serve as a prep school for learning how to let go of limiting assumptions and opening one's self to unlimited possibilities.
3. Not every dream has meaning and attempting to derive meaning from all of them is counterproductive and a drain of mental energy.
4. Some dreams do have meaning and, for me, these type of dreams have a different "flavor" so to speak. Knowing the "flavor" is a learning process. For me, the "flavor" was recognized in retrospect. If you don't know what you don't know then system 2 has no data in memory storage for comparison. Once the "dream symbol" has played out its dynamic in reality then system 2 has "flavor" data in storage connected to dream data which is also connected to system 1. If you know the "flavor" then it becomes easier to discern significant dream symbols from insignificant ones. Thus, it seems to me that "dream data" if discerned correctly can help system 2 develop coherency
with system 1 in reality.
5. Anything that effects or activates the seeking system (drugs, alcohol or substance which increase activity if the dopaminergic system will cause major confusion in system 2's ability to recognize "flavor" coming from system 1.
6. If you are attempting to do The Work then it may be utilized as prep school for observing emotions and its connection to the feedback loop of the "dream field". If something in your dream is attacking you then the usual response is fear or anger. If you working on trying to observe your emotions then you can observe it in "dream time" and you can see how watching it changes the surrounding "dreamscape"
This may lead to bringing your emotional horse under conscious control in reality.
This is my current thinking about the possible benefits of this type of dreaming as it relates to Doing the Work. Of course, I am basing this on my experience thus it is more of a "theory" in progress. FWIW
"flavor" correctly.)
1. It may be used as a forum for disinformation
2. It may also be used as a forum for learning about ones assumptions. There appears to be a feedback loop between assumption and the dream's "physical laws". Thus, it may serve as a prep school for learning how to let go of limiting assumptions and opening one's self to unlimited possibilities.
3. Not every dream has meaning and attempting to derive meaning from all of them is counterproductive and a drain of mental energy.
4. Some dreams do have meaning and, for me, these type of dreams have a different "flavor" so to speak. Knowing the "flavor" is a learning process. For me, the "flavor" was recognized in retrospect. If you don't know what you don't know then system 2 has no data in memory storage for comparison. Once the "dream symbol" has played out its dynamic in reality then system 2 has "flavor" data in storage connected to dream data which is also connected to system 1. If you know the "flavor" then it becomes easier to discern significant dream symbols from insignificant ones. Thus, it seems to me that "dream data" if discerned correctly can help system 2 develop coherency
with system 1 in reality.
5. Anything that effects or activates the seeking system (drugs, alcohol or substance which increase activity if the dopaminergic system will cause major confusion in system 2's ability to recognize "flavor" coming from system 1.
6. If you are attempting to do The Work then it may be utilized as prep school for observing emotions and its connection to the feedback loop of the "dream field". If something in your dream is attacking you then the usual response is fear or anger. If you working on trying to observe your emotions then you can observe it in "dream time" and you can see how watching it changes the surrounding "dreamscape"
This may lead to bringing your emotional horse under conscious control in reality.
This is my current thinking about the possible benefits of this type of dreaming as it relates to Doing the Work. Of course, I am basing this on my experience thus it is more of a "theory" in progress. FWIW
"flavor" correctly.)
