Interfering with someone's Free Will to keep them from harm

[curious_richard]

Sorry for the long sad story. But your thoughts and comments would be appreciated.

Here is my suggestion:

Ask her to write her obituary so it is ready when she dies. She should make it complete, listing ever person she can remember, everything she has done in this lifetime, and how she would like people to remember her when she is gone.

Maybe the life review would remind her why she is here.

 

[Gonzo]

Hi Sonrisa,

As you have seen this topic evolve, one of the interesting components is the fact that the moment one observes, they become part of the dynamic.

WARNING: POSSIBLE NEW AGE SURVIVOR REMNANTS AHEAD
(Thought I should preface my next thought)
I think we all have lessons that involve others through synchronicity, or as some might say, contracts with each other.

This security guard, who is obviously damaged and is having difficulty with certain programs interfering with her taking charge of her well being, was experiencing a crisis, the extent to which she was oblivious whether by design, programming or by intentional avoidance (perhaps resulting from some form of earlier wounding).

You opened the door by showing interest in asking how she was doing and she chose to let you know her symptoms.

At that point you have two choices: do something to help or do something to not help. Both choices are doing but one is more STO and the other more STS.

If the person fell unconscious at the very moment you asked if they wanted to go to the hospital without the chance to respond, how would you act?

Like most people (hopefully), you would call an ambulance and perhaps start first aid, resuscitation, CPR, etc., without the person's consent.

The reason we would act in such a way is because we cherish life, no matter how much the other person might not.

It gets confusing for us when we start hearing their drama and reasons why the might not want to live. But life that doesn't want to live $akes little sense to those of us who cherish the gift.

Whatever we decide, whether it is to continue saving someone against their will or to get drawn into their despair and agree they shouldn't live, our decisions align us in one of only two directions: creativity or entropy.

I am forming the notion that to do anything but to help someone live, is to help them not live.

This is becoming clearer for me, thanks to this and a few other relevant threads. There is one scenario I haven't yet been able to work through though. My mother-in-law suffered a few strokes and was eventually hospitalized. She decided she did not want to be revived. This is very difficult on the doctors and nurses who have promised themselves they are there to save lives, not end them. When she took another serious stroke that stopped her breathing, they had to respect the big "Do Not Resuscitate" sign on the wall above her bed and let her die. I saw how hard it was on some of the staff.

She could have been saved, but before she arrived at the hospital, her quality of life was already gone. She was a strong fighter, expending incredible effort to try to recover form paralysis of one side after a stroke only to be hit by another one, months later. Each time she was afflicted, she fought back and regained only some of what she lost.

But a time came when she decided she had had enough and no longer found any pleasure in living in a body that could no longer support life.

This created in me so many questions. Would it make sense to save someone if they will be in a vegetative state afterwards? How about if someone was already in a vegetative state. Would it make sense to try to revive them if they took a massive stroke, heart attack, organ failure, etc.?

What is life if we can't live it?

How can we tell if someone is living life?

Do we need a functioning body to live life, or can we experience life lessons while brain dead?

I think we come to a point where the defining term to use is "reasonable", we must make all reasonable efforts to protect and prolong life. Beyond that, we are merely fighting something mightier than us. It is up to each of us to determine what reasonable means.

I hope I have added to this discussion something beyond noisy rambling. I feel the topic central to respecting both free will and creation.

Thanks,
Gonzo

 

[Sonrisa]

Thank you, Richard and Gonzo, for your suggestions and insights. They are helping me get more clear about this situation, although I'm still wrestling with it.

The situation with my friend Mila has more "punch" for me right now, because I just realized that my own mother does not value her own life enough to protect herself from possible harm. Different situation, but the bottom line with my mom, too, is she "is not concerned" about the harm she could come to if she does nothing about her situation. She refuses to take action, and I cannot force her to. And I will be anguished if she does come to harm from a situation she could have protected herself from, if she chose to.

So what is the STO thing to do? Keep bringing up the fact of the existence of the danger that my mom, and my friend Mila, are in if they refuse to take care of the situations that threaten to ( abruptly) end their lives if they keep their heads in the sand? Or is that STS?

It feels awful to watch people I care about, dangle their lives over a cliff.

Sonrisa

 

[Nienna]

Sonrisa, this is how these two things, Mila and your mother, look to me. This is only my understanding at this time and it can change if there is further information that contradicts my understanding of these situations now.

First, your mother. To me, it seems that she has some very important lessons to learn. All you can do is give advice. It is up to her to utilize it. If she does not want to take your advice, this is her choice. Of course, you would be anguished if harm should come to her. But you are not her protector. She needs to learn her lessons in life, or not. It is up to her.

As for Mila. It seems to me that she is feeding on your concern for her. Why did she tell you how horrible she feels, then not go to the hospital? Maybe there is a reason other people do not care if she drops dead, which I think were her words. Maybe it is because even after someone tries to help her, she does not want the help to feel better because then she would not get the attention/feeding that she would rather have.

Also, since she did not take the meds after going to the hospital, maybe on another level she has decided that she really would prefer to exit this life? Who are we to stop her if this is her choice?

I think that it was a good thing for you to disengage from this feeding loop that developed. She obviously doesn't want to take care of herself, maybe she, too, has lessons to learn about her health. But it is up to her to learn them - or not. That's why we are here. To learn life's lessons. And if we don't, we come back until we do.

Does this mean that we don't help anyone who seems to be in a dangerous situation? I think that all we can do is offer a helping hand, or advice or whatever the situation calls for. If it is rejected, then this is the signal to us that we need to desist and let the lessons be learned.

However, I also cannot help but remember what Laura had told in the Wave series about the couple who went to a psychic about their unborn child. (This is very much paraphrased.) They were told it was a boy and that he would grow up to be a very important person. So once the child was born, the couple did everything they could to protect this young boy and make sure that he would grow up to be this important person. Instead, he died (sorry I can't remember how) and so the couple went back to the psychic in anger since she had told them that he would grow up an important person. They were told that they were so over-protective that they never let him learn any lessons that would have enabled him to be that important person that he was supposed to be so he exited that life to come back to other parents that would let him learn these important lessons.

fwiw

 

[Argonaut]

However, I also cannot help but remember what Laura had told in the Wave series about the couple who went to a psychic about their unborn child. (This is very much paraphrased.) They were told it was a boy and that he would grow up to be a very important person. So once the child was born, the couple did everything they could to protect this young boy and make sure that he would grow up to be this important person. Instead, he died (sorry I can't remember how) and so the couple went back to the psychic in anger since she had told them that he would grow up an important person. They were told that they were so over-protective that they never let him learn any lessons that would have enabled him to be that important person that he was supposed to be so he exited that life to come back to other parents that would let him learn these important lessons.

NE, I think you're remembering the following from Book 4, pg 32 (Edit: it was pg 34, actually)

I am reminded of a case Edgar Cayce once dealt with. Seems that a couple had a baby and obtained a reading for the child shortly after birth. They were told how special the child was and how many lessons he was going to learn, and what great things he would do as a consequence.

His parents only heard the "special" and "great things" part and ignored the "lessons" part. They began a lifetime of protecting the boy so that he would be ready to do his great work. Every time there was a problem, they stepped in and "fixed" it or helped him find the way out, and so on and so on.

Then, in his early 20s, the boy was killed in an auto accident. The parents were devastated. They went to Cayce and asked him "why? he was so special, you told us he had a great work to do!" And Cayce gave them another reading that pointed out the fact that the boy had a "life plan" before he was born, and that included getting some karma out of the way and learning some specific things by making certain mistakes and having to pay for them. It was all set up in a graduated way so that he would never have to deal with more than his skills could handle at any one time.

However, due to the interference of his parents, it was clearly seen by his higher self that the lessons were not being learned, that the parents were not being truly loving toward the "soul and its plan," and in order to prevent more and greater karma, as well as to get the lesson out of the way in the most expeditious way possible so that, at least, he would have time to return quickly for the next stage of his series of life plans, he would have to "check out."

I only knew because I had just read that passage about an hour before I logged in here and read your post. Kinda weird. :)

My question about this situation is, did Cayce share any responsibility for the boy's failed "life plan?" After all, it was his prophecy which triggered the parents to treat their child differently. Maybe he wrongly assumed that the parents would trust the prophecy to be fulfilled naturally rather than trying to MAKE it happen by force. Either way, the story makes an excellent point about Love vs. STS actions done in love's name.

 

[Sonrisa]

Sonrisa, this is how these two things, Mila and your mother, look to me. This is only my understanding at this time and it can change if there is further information that contradicts my understanding of these situations now.

First, your mother. To me, it seems that she has some very important lessons to learn. All you can do is give advice. It is up to her to utilize it. If she does not want to take your advice, this is her choice. Of course, you would be anguished if harm should come to her. But you are not her protector. She needs to learn her lessons in life, or not. It is up to her.

As for Mila. It seems to me that she is feeding on your concern for her. Why did she tell you how horrible she feels, then not go to the hospital? Maybe there is a reason other people do not care if she drops dead, which I think were her words. Maybe it is because even after someone tries to help her, she does not want the help to feel better because then she would not get the attention/feeding that she would rather have.

Also, since she did not take the meds after going to the hospital, maybe on another level she has decided that she really would prefer to exit this life? Who are we to stop her if this is her choice?

I think that it was a good thing for you to disengage from this feeding loop that developed. She obviously doesn't want to take care of herself, maybe she, too, has lessons to learn about her health. But it is up to her to learn them - or not. That's why we are here. To learn life's lessons. And if we don't, we come back until we do.

Does this mean that we don't help anyone who seems to be in a dangerous situation? I think that all we can do is offer a helping hand, or advice or whatever the situation calls for. If it is rejected, then this is the signal to us that we need to desist and let the lessons be learned.

Thank you, Nienna. I did a lot of thinking about both situations over the last several days. I came to the same conclusion regarding Mila that you did: that she was feeding on attention and concern I was giving her, and that she seemed to care more about the feeding than anything else. I had a talk with her this morning, and told her that if she didn't care enough about her own life to do what is necessary to take care of herself (including taking the meds prescribed for her, talking to her doctor, or getting a new doctor if she doesn't trust her current one), then I was not going to talk to her or spend more time with her. I told her that it was very upsetting for me to know that she was probably having a heart attack last Monday, and possibly again on Wednesday when she came back to work, and to be told by her that she refused to do anything about it, that she wanted to lay down and die. I did tell her that it was her choice, but if she chose to die without fighting, I was not going to engage with her any more. She was not very receptive to what I said, and wanted to argue with me. However, I told her I meant it, that she needed to hear what I said, and to make her own choices.

With my mother, yes, I have also come to the conclusion that she is making her own choices, and those choices now appear to be to do nothing about the danger she is in. This is the hardest one for me, but I know that these are her lessons, not mine, and I cannot protect her. This is very hard.

Thank you again, all, for your thoughts and insights.

Sonrisa

 

[nobodyslave]

Hi everyone,

This was a topic that I have been thinking about for the past few weeks due to my own personal experience. My family have recently discovered my Brother has become heavily dependant on alcohol, and he will refuse to admit he has a problem.

Mum took him to the doctors for some tests, which concluded his liver is suffering. Apart from his constant health problems, he has ended up losing his job and his relationship with his girlfriend is falling apart. He has also become a compulsive liar.

Mum has given him money, food and clothes. Basically all the things an able bodied man of 25 years should provide for himself. I can understand why she does this, being a parent myself I would not want my kids to go without the basics, but I can also see the damage that's being done by aiding someone in this situation. It's the “teach a man to fish” scenario.

My parents attended a support group for family members who are affected by alcohol abuse. They discovered that everything they had been doing was not only enabling the situation, but also escalating it. This opened their eyes a little, and Mum has since stopped giving him money.

To me, it seems that she has some very important lessons to learn. All you can do is give advice. It is up to her to utilize it. If she does not want to take your advice, this is her choice. Of course, you would be anguished if harm should come to her. But you are not her protector. She needs to learn her lessons in life, or not. It is up to her.

This rings true with me. My brother and I were very close growing up, and as his big Sis I have always felt protective of him, but I cannot protect him from himself. I have offered him advice a few of times, and at the time it seems like he is really listening, but then later his actions say otherwise.

It is frustrating to watch someone I care about willingly choose the path of self destruction, but I have to make a conscious effort to step aside, as this is his choice and I understand he needs to learn from this experience, I just hope he learns quickly before his health diminishes any further.

Thanks to all.

 

[Nienna]

NE, I think you're remembering the following from Book 4, pg 32 (Edit: it was pg 34, actually)

Yes, that is the one. Thank you for posting it.

My parents attended a support group for family members who are affected by alcohol abuse. They discovered that everything they had been doing was not only enabling the situation, but also escalating it. This opened their eyes a little, and Mum has since stopped giving him money.

This is what I have found to be true. Until they hit rock bottom and THEY want to change, change will never occur. And your mother giving him clothes and money was enabling him. Until he can see how alcohol has ruined him and his life, there is no reason that he will see to change. It is a tough lesson to learn, but it's one he has to learn on his own.

To me, it seems that she has some very important lessons to learn. All you can do is give advice. It is up to her to utilize it. If she does not want to take your advice, this is her choice. Of course, you would be anguished if harm should come to her. But you are not her protector. She needs to learn her lessons in life, or not. It is up to her.

This rings true with me. My brother and I were very close growing up, and as his big Sis I have always felt protective of him, but I cannot protect him from himself. I have offered him advice a few of times, and at the time it seems like he is really listening, but then later his actions say otherwise.

It is frustrating to watch someone I care about willingly choose the path of self destruction, but I have to make a conscious effort to step aside, as this is his choice and I understand he needs to learn from this experience, I just hope he learns quickly before his health diminishes any further.

Thanks to all.

I know this very well, nobodyslave. It is heartbreaking and maddening to have to watch someone you care about ruin their lives. But for almost all alcoholics, they have to hit rock bottom before they even see a glimmer of the harm they are doing to themselves.

My heart goes out to you during this terrible time. Stay strong.

 

[nobodyslave]

My heart goes out to you during this terrible time. Stay strong.

Thank you for your words and support Nienna Eluch, it is much appreciated. :)

 

[agni]

Did I just interfere with my dad free will ?

In last week visit, I went through my parents refrigerator to see what they eat and saw a box of ice-cream. I've asked what a hell is that out of surprise and dumped in the garbage. Apparently he does not feel pain from cancer anymore because of chemo, thus he feels resuming to old eating habits is ok now (and they are really horrible). He was upset with mom later on, for not telling me that she eats ice cream too. My sister told me that he actually would eat the whole freaking can.

Do I start treating him as being a parent and him being a kid, deciding what should be on his diet ? Or shall I leave it up to him ?

 

[Guardian]

Do I start treating him as being a parent and him being a kid, deciding what should be on his diet ? Or shall I leave it up to him ?

That's a toughy, but I'd say trying to control his diet at this point is the right thing to do....mainly because Chemo TOTALLY screws up a person's mental functioning. I've been through it with several close friends, and their thought processes were seriously scrambled for months...even years after the Chemo.

I think tossing the ice cream would fall under the duties of a caretaker while the patient is unable to make clear, rational choices, which require a memory...which takes quite a while to recover after Chemo.

 

[curious_richard]

Did I just interfere with my dad free will ?

I think probably not. He can buy more ice cream.

Do I start treating him as being a parent and him being a kid, deciding what should be on his diet ?

Is it possible that he is secretly "asking" for that? If that is the case, then I don't see anything wrong with giving that assistance. Perhaps he has trouble controlling his desire for junk food? Or maybe (like a child) he is hoping for an authority to set up boundaries? Obviously I do not know anything. These are just possible ideas.

Or shall I leave it up to him ?

If he is not really asking for your help, then you may be interfering. Maybe. Or maybe a little light friction between family members is just what he needs right now to sort something out. Or maybe he is doing this for YOU because YOU have to sort something out.

Well, I hope my words help make things more clear. :)

 

[agni]

That's a toughy, but I'd say trying to control his diet at this point is the right thing to do....mainly because Chemo TOTALLY screws up a person's mental functioning. I've been through it with several close friends, and their thought processes were seriously scrambled for months...even years after the Chemo.

I think tossing the ice cream would fall under the duties of a caretaker while the patient is unable to make clear, rational choices, which require a memory...which takes quite a while to recover after Chemo.

Thank you Guardian. For some reason I did not anticipate effect of chemo on thought processes.

I mean, not to excuse me not taking care of him in that sense, I do not see his memory impacted or his rationality. Even before chemo he did not a reason why should he change diet, because as he says it's too late. He was holding on the good diet for about 2 months, now I think because he was in pain and may be, fear of failing my expectations (yes, narcissism). Now that's is gone, his attitude changed - diet may be would help if I would be younger he says. He does not really believe in impact of food on health (despite seeing improvement in his blood pressure), because he goes into deep lengths of reasoning defending his old habits of food indulgence, trying to prove the point no one knows anything about health and affect of foods, and tries to blame that no one detected his cancer earlier which is the reason of his suffering.

Did I just interfere with my dad free will ?

I think probably not. He can buy more ice cream.

Yeah, I know. I actually have no doubts about that.

Do I start treating him as being a parent and him being a kid, deciding what should be on his diet ?

Is it possible that he is secretly "asking" for that? If that is the case, then I don't see anything wrong with giving that assistance. Perhaps he has trouble controlling his desire for junk food? Or maybe (like a child) he is hoping for an authority to set up boundaries? Obviously I do not know anything. These are just possible ideas.

On essence level, I see that he is "asking" that, while I feel he is way too prideful to actually do that.. Definitely he does have issues controlling his indulgence and yes, I also have the feeling he asks for authority (and this is difficult for him, because he feels he needs to pose as an authority figure all the time, aka making an image of alfa male or something). So, yeah, I have a feeling that this friction in family dynamics might have something to do with that, which makes things little bit more complicated.

Even while he was on pain killers, which does not allow alcohol intake, which he is well aware about, he asked my sister if he could drink a bottle of beer. She said, sure - go ahead. He replied - but this is not allowed with painkillers. My sister replied, so why are you asking then ? He got upset. That kinds of things makes me think he is looking for some kind of authority or someone setting up boundaries for him, because despite all of his alfa-male like images, he is very passive person.

On one hand I assume responsibility of caretaker, while on grand scale it could be an interference with his lessons (overcoming authority programing for an example) which possibly is not beneficial in long run. But who am I to decide that anyway ? Thus, dilemma.

And not to be a hypocrite, I am doing the same thing here & right now, "asking" for an advice, while I am the one who should be going through complete friction of figuring it out and learning lessons. See what I mean ? Boy, free will is complicated ! :)

 

[Guardian]

On one hand I assume responsibility of caretaker, while on grand scale it could be an interference with his lessons (overcoming authority programing for an example) which possibly is not beneficial in long run. Thus, dilemma.

I hear ya...it's NOT a simply issue. Still in all, I'd lean towards doing whatever preserves life whenever I can. The way I look at is that if I wasn't supposed to interfere, then the universe shouldn't have put me there to begin with, 'cause the universe knew I was going to help if I could.

Your reaction to finding the poisonous food sounds almost instinctive. Could you ignore such threats to your ill parent without ripping your soul to shreds? The universe could have given him a daughter who didn't give a damn about him if that was the life lesson he needed.

And not to be a hypocrite, I am doing the same thing here & right now, "asking" for an advice, while I am the one who should be going through complete friction of figuring it out and learning lessons.

I think we're allowed (and encouraged) to learn from each others life lessons. Nobody has time to learn everything...I don't think our poor old Earth can survive that long.

See what I mean ? Boy, free will is complicated ! :)

Yes it is...and all we can do is take it one bucket of ice cream at a time. Running your options by a bunch of thinking folks helps narrow down your choices and see them "through other eyes" so to speak. I don't think asking for advice, info etc. negatively effects your free will because the ultimate decision is still yours.

 

[curious_richard]

And not to be a hypocrite, I am doing the same thing here & right now, "asking" for an advice, while I am the one who should be going through complete friction of figuring it out and learning lessons.

There is nothing wrong with asking. I thought the wording of your original post ("Do I... Shall I...") to be a little humorous, as it suggests the command, "I order you to give me orders." But after peeling back the top layer of words, it seemed that you were really just asking for advice. :)

[quote author=agni]
See what I mean ? Boy, free will is complicated ! Smiley
[/quote]
[quote author=Guardian]
Yes it is...and all we can do is take it one bucket of ice cream at a time.
[/quote]
I sense something profound there, like one of those koans. Maybe it would go like this:

The student asks the Master, "Master, is there Buddha nature in a bucket of ice cream?" The Master replies, "For me to answer, you must bring me a bucket of ice cream." The student buys a bucket of ice cream and brings it to the Master, eager for an answer to his question. The Master says no word, and dumps it in the garbage. And thus the student was enlightened.

Then the Master struck the student with a stick, for that is the nature of koans.