Interfering with someone's Free Will to keep them from harm

[Gonzo]

Hi agni,

I would like to throw a possibility or two into the mix for consideration.

Your path is about you more than it is about anyone else. Could there be a chance that such situations have presented themselves to grant you opportunity to reflect on aspects of yourself, in particular a take charge mentality based on distrusting the capacity of others to make the right choice?

I think a safer approach would be to remind your father, and perhaps your mother, about the hazards, and allow them to make their own decision, after which, your role is to chose whether or not you can be party to supporting their decision. It is hard to respect another's conscious choice when it seems unhealthy, dangerous or potentially fatal.

It is one thing to intervene when someone's actions would cause immediate damage or death, but when their actions lead to intermediary events or processes that could ultimately cause damage, there is room for lessons to come to that person before it is too late. (I had a difficult time expressing that last thought, so I hope it made sense).

Finally, I wanted to take an earlier mentioned concept and turn it around for contemplation purposes. Instead of considering your father is looking for authority over him, perhaps he is seeking input to make a more informed decision or a risk assessment and still retains his right to make his own decision.

If your father were smoking, how would you feel is your sister kept throwing out his cigarettes? This one is a little harder because we know there are benefits to smoking but, aside from mainstream anti-smoking attitudes and social conditioning, there could be hazards as well.

Perhaps meditating on some of this would help clear up the free will question for you personally. I have been thinking perhaps this is such a significant component to our spiritual growth, that the answers might be slightly different for each individual, depending on their karmic record, life lesson plan and pre-arranged synchronicities with others.

Regards,
Gonzo

 

[Guardian]

Your path is about you more than it is about anyone else.

You sure positive about that Gonzo?

What if our path has absolutely nothing to do with our precious illusion of individuality whatsoever? Wouldn't that just be a kick? ;D

 

[FireShadow]

I hear ya...it's NOT a simply issue. Still in all, I'd lean towards doing whatever preserves life whenever I can. The way I look at is that if I wasn't supposed to interfere, then the universe shouldn't have put me there to begin with, 'cause the universe knew I was going to help if I could.

I can so relate to that attitude!

On a more serious note, perhaps we are to do "what is in us to do" then observe the results and learn from that...rather than second guessing what the lesson is beforehand? Perhaps the lesson is not what we think it is?

 

[agni]

Thank you all for food for though provided so far, I do appreciate it a lot. I will respond tomorrow, right now I am still chewing it & would need some time absorb and to reflect on that.

 

[Nienna]

I hear ya...it's NOT a simply issue. Still in all, I'd lean towards doing whatever preserves life whenever I can. The way I look at is that if I wasn't supposed to interfere, then the universe shouldn't have put me there to begin with, 'cause the universe knew I was going to help if I could.

But what if the Universe put you there to learn your own lesson?

 

[Guardian]

But what if the Universe put you there to learn your own lesson?

Well then hopefully I do...in the first couple of tries if possible.

If at first I do succeed, I'll try not to look astonished ;)

 

[nwigal]

I hear ya...it's NOT a simply issue. Still in all, I'd lean towards doing whatever preserves life whenever I can. The way I look at is that if I wasn't supposed to interfere, then the universe shouldn't have put me there to begin with, 'cause the universe knew I was going to help if I could.

But what if the Universe put you there to learn your own lesson?

Maybe the universe respects orneriness as a virtue...

 

[Guardian]

Maybe the universe respects orneriness as a virtue...

Well if that's the case, I think we got a whole forum full of very virtuous folks here :P

 

[agni]

Hi agni,

I would like to throw a possibility or two into the mix for consideration.

Your path is about you more than it is about anyone else. Could there be a chance that such situations have presented themselves to grant you opportunity to reflect on aspects of yourself, in particular a take charge mentality based on distrusting the capacity of others to make the right choice?

I think a safer approach would be to remind your father, and perhaps your mother, about the hazards, and allow them to make their own decision, after which, your role is to chose whether or not you can be party to supporting their decision. It is hard to respect another's conscious choice when it seems unhealthy, dangerous or potentially fatal.

It is one thing to intervene when someone's actions would cause immediate damage or death, but when their actions lead to intermediary events or processes that could ultimately cause damage, there is room for lessons to come to that person before it is too late. (I had a difficult time expressing that last thought, so I hope it made sense).

Finally, I wanted to take an earlier mentioned concept and turn it around for contemplation purposes. Instead of considering your father is looking for authority over him, perhaps he is seeking input to make a more informed decision or a risk assessment and still retains his right to make his own decision.
...
Perhaps meditating on some of this would help clear up the free will question for you personally. I have been thinking perhaps this is such a significant component to our spiritual growth, that the answers might be slightly different for each individual, depending on their karmic record, life lesson plan and pre-arranged synchronicities with others.
...

Hi Gonzno,

I think I know what you mean. It does make sense. I think this is a lesson for all involving parties, everyone is presented an opportunity to learn something from this. And well enough, it could be/is different for anyone. We are only responsible for our part of the lesson, if it makes any sense.

I do still believe, it is choice that my dad capable of choosing on his own. I think, my part is to assist him making educated choice, perhaps with help of mother as well, since they both do shopping together.

If your father were smoking, how would you feel is your sister kept throwing out his cigarettes? This one is a little harder because we know there are benefits to smoking but, aside from mainstream anti-smoking attitudes and social conditioning, there could be hazards as well.

Interesting you've brought up smoking. He actually does not believe me fully about information I provide him about food impacts on health, because I smoke and as former smoker he knows about "hazards" of smoking, and won't be convinced otherwise. He feels, that I, just like him use arguments not to quit smoking, and use information about it's benefits to defend my habits. So, in that sense he considers me a hypocrite.

So given all this, I have spoken to my parents about it again. I wanted to find out what is the drive behind father not so healthy habits. I found out that what I think is the major one, is hardship of breaking up long established habits that have been practiced for most of the life. Which, I have compared with drug addiction, where it's pretty much a personal war, where either habit defeats you or you defeat the habit. I've told him, that there are chances that cancer has "mind" of it's own, and could be interfering with decision making since it cares about own survival, and survival of organism just like with any parasite is least of it's concerns. Which made sense to him somewhat.

He said he reads about cancer diets as well, but has problem believing information because of such a vast discrepancies in such theories & suggestions. He says, he simply does not know whom to believe. I've suggested to find more scientific approach to this, where one does not take a suggestion for face value, but researches about elements in foods that are cancerogenic and feed/fuel cancer, then go from there, and suggested sugar, gluten & casein to start from. Figure out things that logically make sense (he is very logical person), and apply the knowledge to the diet, eliminating things in diet based on own scientific research. To which he agreed and sounded comfortable with.

And he promised, again, that now he is eating healthy since last conversation and will follow my suggestions.
So, we'll see. It is in his hands, I believe.

In meanwhile, it was more then interesting to observe, how I was so tempted to use their own dirty narcissistic methods (since that's the language they use) - "I thought you care about us more, then about food (along with tone of disappointment) But I've dodged the temptation. It was scary to observe it's rise, though... Vengeance from my side, perhaps ?

And not to be a hypocrite, I am doing the same thing here & right now, "asking" for an advice, while I am the one who should be going through complete friction of figuring it out and learning lessons.

There is nothing wrong with asking. I thought the wording of your original post ("Do I... Shall I...") to be a little humorous, as it suggests the command, "I order you to give me orders." But after peeling back the top layer of words, it seemed that you were really just asking for advice. :)

I did not see that I came across so strongly - ordering/demanding an answer. Does everyone see it in same way ? Because, I do not see that at all and it would be interesting to find out more about it. But I won't be surprised if I do. Thing is, I really do not demand an answer at all from my perspective. I see it more as thinking aloud, aka question to myself. I do not even expect people to reply to anything I post period, I see it as a gift from a person if they do, which I really appreciate. I do not feel entitled to any of the answers provided. If that's really the case where what I say presents in such demanding way, it's really a big concern I should be looking into.

Dear all, thank you for your suggestions & comments !

 

[curious_richard]

I thought the wording of your original post ("Do I... Shall I...") to be a little humorous, as it suggests the command, "I order you to give me orders." But after peeling back the top layer of words, it seemed that you were really just asking for advice. :)

I did not see that I came across so strongly - ordering/demanding an answer. Does everyone see it in same way ? Because, I do not see that at all and it would be interesting to find out more about it.

I am sure you were just "asking".

The humor is when someone means one thing and there is a misunderstanding, then when everyone understands the mistake, then it is funny. I was just looking at the words and grammar directly, and I thought it was a little funny that I first read your words one way, and then I understood that my first idea was a little different from what you meant. Please don't think I intended anything other than a little humorous note.

 

[agni]

I thought the wording of your original post ("Do I... Shall I...") to be a little humorous, as it suggests the command, "I order you to give me orders." But after peeling back the top layer of words, it seemed that you were really just asking for advice. :)

I did not see that I came across so strongly - ordering/demanding an answer. Does everyone see it in same way ? Because, I do not see that at all and it would be interesting to find out more about it.

I am sure you were just "asking".

The humor is when someone means one thing and there is a misunderstanding, then when everyone understands the mistake, then it is funny. I was just looking at the words and grammar directly, and I thought it was a little funny that I first read your words one way, and then I understood that my first idea was a little different from what you meant. Please don't think I intended anything other than a little humorous note.

Thanks for clarifying curious_richard ! I see what you mean. I just wanted to find out more for what it is, about something possibly I might be consciously not quite aware about.

 

[Gonzo]

Your path is about you more than it is about anyone else.

You sure positive about that Gonzo?What if our path has absolutely nothing to do with our precious illusion of individuality whatsoever? Wouldn't that just be a kick? ;D

Hi Guardian, I hope you read beyond the first sentence of my post before reacting, otherwise, it might be difficult to understand out of context that which I was already having difficulty expressing

What I was trying to say to agni, and it appears she understood my convoluted communication, was that each person's path should be their primary focus. G

Unless you come to this life with no karma and no plan, then you path is your path. You may have planned to come into this life with the major purpose to affect someone else, but that then is your path and yours alone to focus on.

Otherwise you might find yourself investing more time deciding what is best for others and less on what is best for yourself.

A biblical verse just came to mind (wow, that's rare) - Luke 6:41 (had to look it up):

41 "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

42 "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye.

This is a synchronous world, IMO. We all affect other individuals and whatever we do affects the collective whole, but for us to do our job, we have to work on ourselves to see the objective truth.
I might have misunderstood your response, but I cannot conceive an individual path that does not involve our illusions insofar as working to see through them.

I hope that adds some clarity and less mud to the water.

Regards,
Gonzo


edit: mod fixed quotes

 

[HowToBe]

Your path is about you more than it is about anyone else.

You sure positive about that Gonzo?What if our path has absolutely nothing to do with our precious illusion of individuality whatsoever? Wouldn't that just be a kick? ;D

What I was trying to say to agni, and it appears she understood my convoluted communication, was that each person's path should be their primary focus. G

Unless you come to this life with no karma and no plan, then you path is your path. You may have planned to come into this life with the major purpose to affect someone else, but that then is your path and yours alone to focus on.

Otherwise you might find yourself investing more time deciding what is best for others and less on what is best for yourself.

The problem, I think, is talking about what someone's "path is about". If all is lessons, then one's path is ultimately "about" those lessons, which come in the form of choices and related experiences. The path is about the path.

We can only make decisions for ourselves to begin with, and I think this is what Gonzo is emphasizing. I may be wrong, however.