Introvert and Extrovert

[Buddy]

Got'cha! Thanks for the feedback! :D

 

[Courageous Inmate Sort]

Anyway, one example of external consideration I practice is to intentionally keep a conversation balanced to the extent I can. If I'm the more animated one, I encourage my listener to talk about as much as I do by asking questions if necessary.

That is externally considerate only if the less animated person wants to talk. Otherwise, you are determining how the conversation should go based on what you think - not necessarily what is easiest or best for them (and thus you).

If the other person is the more animated talker, I find ways to participate in the conversation whether he likes it or not, but I do it in creative ways that make what I'm doing less obvious.

External consideration in this case would be to stay quiet and let the other person talk all they wanted, finding an exit point that is natural and not so abrupt as to make them uncomfortable (while not identifying with your discomfort). In other words, putting up with the 'unpleasing manifestations of others' without letting them know you are doing such a thing. This is what makes life easier on them (they get to do what they want to do), and you, because your energy is conserved, since most people like this aren't listening to you anyway, no matter how often you try to force them to. ;)

That is a new point of view for me, as I would tend to think more along Bud's line of reasoning. That is, trying to make the conversation "balanced".

It's an interesting experience to "detach" from our discomfort when we are the bored one, at least in my experience it kind of showed me how some people can be talking to you while at the same time talking for themselves. I mean, it doesn't matter a lot if you're really paying attention or just nodding a little, they just keep talking. After realizing how annoying this can be I always try to pay attention, it seems rude to do otherwise. But sometimes I just get exhausted and my mind drifts away until I get a chance to start talking to balance things out.

Another thing I noticed is that I am usually the bored person but sometimes I can clearly see that while I'm talking the other person's head is somewhere far far away.... More than that, I started to see a pattern regarding the people involved. While with certain people (most) I'm usually the bored one, with others (mainly people I'm closer to) I'm usually the excited person. In these latter cases when I'm able to perceive the lack of balance I usually try to stop talking and give the other a chance to go on.

Next time I'll try to be more externally considerate instead of trying to lead things into what I thought was balance.

 

[Woodsman]

I just have a couple of observations to add, (I was dealing directly with this subject today, and made a discovery which seemed really cool.)

My partner has very sensitive hearing, as do several of her 'introvert' friends. One of them, when visiting, I noted, actually came wearing little ear-plugs. The general noise of the world is painfully loud to her. My partner reports the same thing, and often finds she can't be around loud environments filled with lots of people. Another friend of mine also self-identifies as an introvert. For him, emotions and any stimuli are needed only in the tiniest doses in order to register a strong response. An embarrassing scene in a film, for instance, will cause him to leave the theater or crunch up in a ball and cover his eyes and ears while everybody else is laughing happily. He's also, as I found out later, what is known as a 'super-taster', that is, he has tens or even hundreds of times the number of taste-buds that most people do. His hearing is also very sensitive.

It struck us that perhaps some people who are 'introverts' are simply over-whelmed by society and retreat from it because they have more nerve-endings. The amount of stimulus required for the 'extroverts' to register a feeling is large compared to what more sensitive people require, and so they find they need to hide; they get worn out more easily while the rest of the world is happily bellowing at one another.

fwiw, I've met selfish people from both realms.

Also. . , I've noted that in enough cases to stand out in my mind, many of the 'introverts' in my life seem to be of the 'cooler' and 'deeper' astrological signs which make up one half of the Western chart. Pisces, Cancers, and Scorpios and such. But then, my friend with the super-taster gene is a Sag, so who knows?

 

[Buddy]

Good points, CIS. External Consideration is not as simple as we think sometimes, eh? Actually, I understand anart's points. In the first part I failed to mention that if my listener appears bored or disinterested, I have also, on occasion, wrapped it up to keep him from being drained (because I know how it feels).

In the second part, I have an advantage that will allow me to implement anart's suggestion. I can generate energy when needed due to my natural tendency to enthusiasm when interacting with people in general, so I can feed them what they want until I can find an exit as that wouldn't take too long anyway. :)

 

[Psalehesost]

It's an interesting experience to "detach" from our discomfort when we are the bored one, at least in my experience it kind of showed me how some people can be talking to you while at the same time talking for themselves. I mean, it doesn't matter a lot if you're really paying attention or just nodding a little, they just keep talking. After realizing how annoying this can be I always try to pay attention, it seems rude to do otherwise.

And there (bolded) internal considering enters. If you could successfully just nod a bit and so on without them noticing it, you'd be succeeding quite well in playing the external role - for this aim, if there's no difference in results, it doesn't matter if you genuinely listen or not. (though the predator, which has "given us our social mores", may disagree)

In this case, there's two possibilities for conscious struggle that I see: One is to ignore, go against, any such inner rules mechanically insisted upon that do not affect outward results - and, if you feel 'bad' or 'guilty' or any such doing so, struggle against that. The other is to really, in this example, pay attention and bear it without identification - but if paying attention is done because doing otherwise 'seems rude', is it a conscious struggle or a mechanical one - and so, can the 'without identification' fully succeed?

OSIT.

 

[Courageous Inmate Sort]

My partner has very sensitive hearing, as do several of her 'introvert' friends. One of them, when visiting, I noted, actually came wearing little ear-plugs. The general noise of the world is painfully loud to her. My partner reports the same thing, and often finds she can't be around loud environments filled with lots of people. Another friend of mine also self-identifies as an introvert. For him, emotions and any stimuli are needed only in the tiniest doses in order to register a strong response. An embarrassing scene in a film, for instance, will cause him to leave the theater or crunch up in a ball and cover his eyes and ears while everybody else is laughing happily. He's also, as I found out later, what is known as a 'super-taster', that is, he has tens or even hundreds of times the number of taste-buds that most people do. His hearing is also very sensitive.

It struck us that perhaps some people who are 'introverts' are simply over-whelmed by society and retreat from it because they have more nerve-endings. The amount of stimulus required for the 'extroverts' to register a feeling is large compared to what more sensitive people require, and so they find they need to hide; they get worn out more easily while the rest of the world is happily bellowing at one another.

Woodsman, your description of your partner and friends made me think of the Highly Sensitive Person concept. I already bought the books by Elaine Aron but didn't have the time to read them yet. But you can find a lot of info about it online. It seems to explain the difference in the nervous system of some people that are more sensitive to certain stimuli. I thought you might find it interesting.

 

[Courageous Inmate Sort]

And there (bolded) internal considering enters. If you could successfully just nod a bit and so on without them noticing it, you'd be succeeding quite well in playing the external role - for this aim, if there's no difference in results, it doesn't matter if you genuinely listen or not. (though the predator, which has "given us our social mores", may disagree)

In this case, there's two possibilities for conscious struggle that I see: One is to ignore, go against, any such inner rules mechanically insisted upon that do not affect outward results - and, if you feel 'bad' or 'guilty' or any such doing so, struggle against that. The other is to really, in this example, pay attention and bear it without identification - but if paying attention is done because doing otherwise 'seems rude', is it a conscious struggle or a mechanical one - and so, can the 'without identification' fully succeed?

OSIT.

I think I understand your point Psalehesost. Forcing myself to pay attention because some "little I" thinks it's rude to do otherwise actually means that there is still some identification with a "have to be pleasant/nice" program.

Did I got it right? If so, one of mine typical rationalizations for this would be that maybe if I do pay attention then the outcome might be different. But thinking now of past experiences I would guess that this is just a rationalization and nothing more, since I don't think that my "active listening" changed the outcome at all.

This seems to relate to a discussion regarding maneuvering vs. manipulating I read at another thread. Maybe instead of acting in a way that I expect would bring change to the way the other person responds, the more STOish attitude is to objectively understand how the other person acts and "maneuver" around them. OSIT.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[Courageous Inmate Sort]

Good points, CIS. External Consideration is not as simple as we think sometimes, eh? Actually, I understand anart's points. In the first part I failed to mention that if my listener appears bored or disinterested, I have also, on occasion, wrapped it up to keep him from being drained (because I know how it feels).

Not simple at all! I resonate with your "I know how it feels" comment... When I'm "awake" enough to remember I try to put myself in the other person's shoes, so to say.

In the second part, I have an advantage that will allow me to implement anart's suggestion. I can generate energy when needed due to my natural tendency to enthusiasm when interacting with people in general, so I can feed them what they want until I can find an exit as that wouldn't take too long anyway. :)

I actually envy (if this is not too strong a word) who has this kind of natural tendency, I've been known to be too little enthusiastic in general. I think that's why I get into the "dicomfort zone" rather quickly.

 

[manitoban]

It's an interesting experience to "detach" from our discomfort when we are the bored one, at least in my experience it kind of showed me how some people can be talking to you while at the same time talking for themselves. I mean, it doesn't matter a lot if you're really paying attention or just nodding a little, they just keep talking. After realizing how annoying this can be I always try to pay attention, it seems rude to do otherwise. But sometimes I just get exhausted and my mind drifts away until I get a chance to start talking to balance things out.

One thing I have found regarding being externally considerate during conversations with others, is that the vast majority of people will quite happily talk away and are mostly unaware that the conversation is unbalanced. I've had conversations with people that are entirely one sided, with me listening and paying attention, but saying very little myself, and afterwords the person will say what a great conversation we had!

This type of situation is great practice in being externally considerate, because the predator wants to get it's share of attention and talk and it takes effort to just focus on the other person without needing to speak about ourself.

 

[Jacques]

One thing I have found regarding being externally considerate during conversations with others, is that the vast majority of people will quite happily talk away and are mostly unaware that the conversation is unbalanced. I've had conversations with people that are entirely one sided, with me listening and paying attention, but saying very little myself, and afterwords the person will say what a great conversation we had!

It is so true and when we have the opportunity to speak, most of the time the other person does not listen to what we are saying but she is already thinking about what she is going to say as soon as we have finished to talk.

 

[Woodsman]

It's an interesting experience to "detach" from our discomfort when we are the bored one, at least in my experience it kind of showed me how some people can be talking to you while at the same time talking for themselves. I mean, it doesn't matter a lot if you're really paying attention or just nodding a little, they just keep talking. After realizing how annoying this can be I always try to pay attention, it seems rude to do otherwise. But sometimes I just get exhausted and my mind drifts away until I get a chance to start talking to balance things out.

One thing I have found regarding being externally considerate during conversations with others, is that the vast majority of people will quite happily talk away and are mostly unaware that the conversation is unbalanced. I've had conversations with people that are entirely one sided, with me listening and paying attention, but saying very little myself, and afterwords the person will say what a great conversation we had!

This type of situation is great practice in being externally considerate, because the predator wants to get it's share of attention and talk and it takes effort to just focus on the other person without needing to speak about ourself.

It is so true and when we have the opportunity to speak, most of the time the other person does not listen to what we are saying but she is already thinking about what she is going to say as soon as we have finished to talk.

From these observations, I get a sudden image of society as being full of little humming birds or insects all buzzing around trying to feed on each other under the guise of human interaction and conversation. I wonder, however, there might be something more going on as well...

I noticed at a young age that some "conversations" left me feeling energized and others depleted. Not wanting to deplete people, I found that it was possible to be an "entertainer", you could talk and people seemed to enjoy listening and laughing. There was an attention feeding going on, I think now, but also there was a sort of payment for that attention in the form of some out-going energy which people valued. Either information or comedy. I don't know if that left people feeling tired after or not. I'll have to observe more closely next time I leave a good performance/lecture as an audience member and see how I feel.

Anyway, the BEST conversations, I find, are those with people where you don't feel you have to hold up the whole conversation by yourself, (entertaining), and where there's a good back/forth with each side listening and letting stuff in. In this case, both people would leave the conversation feeling charged up. These people became my best friends. It's like a good conversation creates energy out of thin air. A good conversation can spin for hours and hours, and only ends when our bodies crave sleep or our schedule demands we leave off.

What is going on with that sort of connection? Is it just that the balance is so mutual that the same energy is just used very efficiently? Sometimes, I get the impression that we are creating a bon-fire of energy, or a controlled nuclear reaction of some sort which peters out when the people disengage.

 

[Courageous Inmate Sort]

What is going on with that sort of connection? Is it just that the balance is so mutual that the same energy is just used very efficiently? Sometimes, I get the impression that we are creating a bon-fire of energy, or a controlled nuclear reaction of some sort which peters out when the people disengage.

Maybe this transcript from Splitting Reality may give us some clue?

08-18-02
Q: (T) How do I get in the groove?
A: Networking works. Attention is a bi-directional signal. It works best in an exchange.
Q: (T) Can it be the energy itself has changed? Or that each person brings different energy?
A: Resonance that is pure is a property of co-linearity. It can resonate thereby to a stronger signal of similar purity.

 

[deleven]

[/quote]

It's an interesting experience to "detach" from our discomfort when we are the bored one, at least in my experience it kind of showed me how some people can be talking to you while at the same time talking for themselves. I mean, it doesn't matter a lot if you're really paying attention or just nodding a little, they just keep talking. After realizing how annoying this can be I always try to pay attention, it seems rude to do otherwise. But sometimes I just get exhausted and my mind drifts away until I get a chance to start talking to balance things out.

One thing I have found regarding being externally considerate during conversations with others, is that the vast majority of people will quite happily talk away and are mostly unaware that the conversation is unbalanced. I've had conversations with people that are entirely one sided, with me listening and paying attention, but saying very little myself, and afterwords the person will say what a great conversation we had!

This type of situation is great practice in being externally considerate, because the predator wants to get it's share of attention and talk and it takes effort to just focus on the other person without needing to speak about ourself.

It is so true and when we have the opportunity to speak, most of the time the other person does not listen to what we are saying but she is already thinking about what she is going to say as soon as we have finished to talk.

From these observations, I get a sudden image of society as being full of little humming birds or insects all buzzing around trying to feed on each other under the guise of human interaction and conversation. I wonder, however, there might be something more going on as well...

I noticed at a young age that some "conversations" left me feeling energized and others depleted. Not wanting to deplete people, I found that it was possible to be an "entertainer", you could talk and people seemed to enjoy listening and laughing. There was an attention feeding going on, I think now, but also there was a sort of payment for that attention in the form of some out-going energy which people valued. Either information or comedy. I don't know if that left people feeling tired after or not. I'll have to observe more closely next time I leave a good performance/lecture as an audience member and see how I feel.

Anyway, the BEST conversations, I find, are those with people where you don't feel you have to hold up the whole conversation by yourself, (entertaining), and where there's a good back/forth with each side listening and letting stuff in. In this case, both people would leave the conversation feeling charged up. These people became my best friends. It's like a good conversation creates energy out of thin air. A good conversation can spin for hours and hours, and only ends when our bodies crave sleep or our schedule demands we leave off.

What is going on with that sort of connection? Is it just that the balance is so mutual that the same energy is just used very efficiently? Sometimes, I get the impression that we are creating a bon-fire of energy, or a controlled nuclear reaction of some sort which peters out when the people disengage.

"Don't get me started" is what I've been known to say. Yes, the lure of the entertaimer is most seductive. Curious typo. I've found myself having developed a certain stealth persona out in the General Law world generally trying to fly under the radar but always on the lookout for the best friend type of conversant. Of course you don't know until you engage somewhat then, eggads, another one. Not generally a problem as this has to be an opportunity for growth. Opportunities for assessing, manuevering, or understanding. All is lessons. What is this idea of being bored anyway? I remember from my Scn days that boredom was right above anger on the emotional tone scale. Sort of an upper harmonic of apathy. Certainly not a pleasant state to be in but ripe with opportunity for inner non- consideration while remembering that everyone is in struggle.

I liked Gimpy's term 'ambivert'. Could apply both ways though. The nominally introverted until times of leadership are demanded. Or the out-going life-of-the-party type who cowers in the corner or leaves the baby in the crib at the smoke detector going off.

 

[cubbex]

Pretty much. It is still STS because we will always be, as long as we are here, STS. The best you can do is strive to follow that part of you that is great instead of that part of you that is small. Small steps, until one day you turn around and realize you've walked up quite a steep hill.

I think there is no big steps, just the illusion about them.

Its a natural process, the important thing is to achieve the growth.

I've had conversations with people that are entirely one sided, with me listening and paying attention, but saying very little myself, and afterwords the person will say what a great conversation we had!

:P Or those who never talk in a conversation, and say the same. Lol wut I said to my friend, you didn't even talk.

What I've found that is a real problem in conversations, is for example, the ones that just want to talk about something they like and nothing more, and the don't really care what others want to talk, they want to talk strictly about something they want. Why this people need others to talk about it?? if they can be talking just with themselves happily. Or why they can't look for people who are able to talk upon such things???

So maybe the balance or unbalance do not depends on who dominates or and who do not, but it does with the portion of participation that each member wants to give, and in which way they want to participate.

 

[Bluestar]

One thing I have found regarding being externally considerate during conversations with others, is that the vast majority of people will quite happily talk away and are mostly unaware that the conversation is unbalanced. I've had conversations with people that are entirely one sided, with me listening and paying attention, but saying very little myself, and afterwords the person will say what a great conversation we had!

This type of situation is great practice in being externally considerate, because the predator wants to get it's share of attention and talk and it takes effort to just focus on the other person without needing to speak about ourself.

Yes, I have been in situations like this. At the start of the conversation, I wait for a break in which I might interject. If it does not occur, I patiently wait for a breath or pause. Sometimes this does not occur as well. There have been times where I have interupted and asked if the person would like some feedback. This depends on the topic of discussion, if I actually have anything worthwhile to say. Sometimes a smile is all I can offer.

There have been times in a group discussion where there are some strong personalities and I can not interject loud enough. Where I say something and then another person in the group will say the exact same thing I had just said and everyone will acknowledge him/her. Sometimes I will say "I just said that" or times where I just stay quiet. Having to decide where I want to spend my energy. I have to admit there have been times this has happened, before this forum and the work here, where I felt rejected and unappreciated, ignored as if my words held no value. Now I just go with the flow of a conversation whether my involvement is utilized or not. Sometimes I can learn a lot from my silence about the group dynamics or the conversation at hand. There may be some residual feelings of my not having a voice sometimes and now I try to see where these feelings come from.

Is it sometimes I am an introvert while other times that I am more extrovert? Does it depend on the group dynamics of the other personalities within the discussion? Am I actually being externally considerate by holding back my voice if I truly have something worth while to say? Or is this a self preservation thing happening where I do not want to expend the energy out to those that have not asked? Hmmn, will definitely be more aware the next time this comes up.