Is gender a social construct?

whitecoast, for me they are the one and same and in my language and country those words have same meaning, maybe because we re not so enlightened, and it would be ok to keep that all gender aka conchita idiocy confined in the far west as far and long as possible but we know that that pathological drive never stops if someone does not stomp on it.
 
Corvinus said:
whitecoast, for me they are the one and same and in my language and country those words have same meaning, maybe because we re not so enlightened, and it would be ok to keep that all gender aka conchita idiocy confined in the far west as far and long as possible but we know that that pathological drive never stops if someone does not stomp on it.


In the words of the exorcist in the case of the possessed transsexual person recounted in "Hostage to the Devil" by Malachi Martin (a particularly creepy case):

"A bird doesn't fly because it has wings; it has wings because it flies."
 
whitecoast said:
Not only that, but countries that have greater social and economic equity between the sexes (such as Scandinavia) tend to have GREATER gender differences in occupation choices. Far fewer women go into engineering in Scandinavia than their North American counterparts, and the converse is true for men in nursing. So when you reduce as much as possible socioeconomic influences on a person's decision making, increasingly you're just left with gender expression more intimately linked to biopsychological causes (as opposed to psychosocial causes).

And this is precisely what makes the whole thing hilarious: This unending push for "equality" leads directly to even stronger male/female divisions or categorizations, which is exactly what those pushing the "equality" are supposedly fighting against.

The facts on the ground strongly indicate that IT DOES NOT WORK.

And then there is this:

Okay, so I don't agree with the gender-fluidity thing. I state my reasons. I am thus poo-pooed as stuck in old thinking, I'm called a conservative, a fascist, and eventually I'm thrown into some camp somewhere.

Well, what just happened there? I thought this was a war against discrimination and inequality? If the majority is different than me, that means I'm a minority. And we're all about giving minorities special rights and even passing laws to protect them even by suppressing free speech. So, where is my protection? Where are my special laws? After all, we just established that the New System that is all about protecting and empowering the Little People has turned me into a Little Person, but they're not protecting me. They're persecuting me!

IOW, same song, different verse. Fascism is simply wearing a new mask.
 
Scottie said:
Okay, so I don't agree with the gender-fluidity thing. I state my reasons. I am thus poo-pooed as stuck in old thinking, I'm called a conservative, a fascist, and eventually I'm thrown into some camp somewhere.

Well, what just happened there? I thought this was a war against discrimination and inequality? If the majority is different than me, that means I'm a minority. And we're all about giving minorities special rights and even passing laws to protect them even by suppressing free speech. So, where is my protection? Where are my special laws? After all, we just established that the New System that is all about protecting and empowering the Little People has turned me into a Little Person, but they're not protecting me. They're persecuting me!

You just did a terrible mistake: you applied logic and reason to an ideology that is absurd and self-contradictory. Why? Because it is powered by a black hole inside the souls of its proponents; by the reckless drive to make reality conform to their whims; by a pathological agenda of destroying the very fabric of reality; by the Freudian death drive itself.

There is no room for logic there, so no wonder the postmodernists declared logic a 'tool of oppression'. Oppression of their pathological world view that is. What's left is this:

Scottie said:
IOW, same song, different verse. Fascism is simply wearing a new mask.
 
luc said:
Scottie said:
Okay, so I don't agree with the gender-fluidity thing. I state my reasons. I am thus poo-pooed as stuck in old thinking, I'm called a conservative, a fascist, and eventually I'm thrown into some camp somewhere.

Well, what just happened there? I thought this was a war against discrimination and inequality? If the majority is different than me, that means I'm a minority. And we're all about giving minorities special rights and even passing laws to protect them even by suppressing free speech. So, where is my protection? Where are my special laws? After all, we just established that the New System that is all about protecting and empowering the Little People has turned me into a Little Person, but they're not protecting me. They're persecuting me!

You just did a terrible mistake: you applied logic and reason to an ideology that is absurd and self-contradictory. Why? Because it is powered by a black hole inside the souls of its proponents; by the reckless drive to make reality conform to their whims; by a pathological agenda of destroying the very fabric of reality; by the Freudian death drive itself.

There is no room for logic there, so no wonder the postmodernists declared logic a 'tool of oppression'. Oppression of their pathological world view that is. What's left is this:

Scottie said:
IOW, same song, different verse. Fascism is simply wearing a new mask.

Most effective way to deal with those driven primarily by over-inflated ego is to pretend they do not exist... It removes their power. Even thinking about the toxic & devoting any kind of emotion to them only feeds them energy.

Visualizing a sphere of sea salt around oneself will also remove the residual negative energy created by the thought forms they either consciously &/or unconsciously produce.
 
The postmodernist ideologues and their philosophers indeed seem to have a schizoidal world view and their works contain what in Political Ponerology is called "schizoidal declaration". As Lobaczewski writes:

Political Ponerology said:
Their impoverished psychological worldview makes them typically pessimistic regarding human nature. We frequently find expressions of their characteristic attitudes in their statements and writings: "Human nature is so bad that order in human society can only be maintained by a strong power created by highly qualified individuals in the name of some higher idea." Let us call this typical expression the "schizoid declaration".

This is mirrored in the following description of post-modernism from the book "Explaining Postmodernism" mentioned above:

Explaining Postmodernism said:
Postmodern accounts of human nature are consistently collectivist, holding that individuals’ identities are constructed largely by the social-linguistic groups that they are a part of, those groups varying radically across the dimensions of sex, race, ethnicity, and wealth. Postmodern accounts of human nature also consistently emphasize relations of conflict between those groups; and given the de-emphasized or eliminated role of reason, postmodern accounts hold that those conflicts are resolved primarily by the use of force, whether masked or naked [PP: "Human nature is so bad...]; the use of force in turn leads to relations of dominance, submission, and oppression. Finally, postmodern themes in ethics and politics are characterized by an identification with and sympathy for the groups perceived to be oppressed in the conflicts, and a willingness to enter the fray on their behalf. [...that order in human society can only be maintained by a strong power created by highly qualified individuals in the name of some higher idea."]

To further understand how we got where we are and how people react to such pathological theories, Lobaczewski has this to say:

Political Ponerology said:
In spite of the fact that the writings of schizoidal authors contain the above described deficiency, or even an openly for- mulated schizoidal declaration which constitutes sufficient warning to specialists, the average reader accepts them not as a view of reality warped by this anomaly, but rather as an idea to which he should consider seriously based on his convictions and his reason. That is the first mistake
.
The oversimplified pattern of ideas, devoid of psychological color and based on easily available data, tends to exert an intense attracting influence on individuals who are insufficiently critical, frequently frustrated as result of downward social adjustment, culturally neglected, or characterized by some psychological deficiencies of their own. Such writings are particularly attractive to a hystericized society. Others who may read such writings will be immediately provoked to criticism based on their healthy common sense, though they also they fail to grasp the essential cause of the error: that it emerges from a biologically deviant mind.

Societal interpretation of such writings and doctrinaire declarations breaks down into main trifurcations, engendering divisiveness and conflict. The first branchis the path of aversion, based on rejection of the contents of the work due to personal motivations, differing convictions, or moral revulsion. These reactions contain the component of a moralistic interpretation of pathological phenomena.

[The reaction on the extreme right to the postmodernist nonsense may be a good example of this. A moralistic interpretation can lead to problems; it simplifies the matter and can breed extremist views, see right-wingers.]

The second and third branches relate to two distinctly different apperception types among those persons who accept the contents of such works: the critically-corrective and the pathological.

The critically-corrective approach is taken by people whose feel for psychological reality is normal and they tend to incorporate the more valuable elements of the work. They then trivialize the obvious errors and fill in the missing elements of the schizoid deficiencies by means of their own richer world view. This gives rise to a more sensible, measured, and thus creative interpretation, but is cannot be completely free from the influence of the error frequently adduced above.

[Today, this would be the well-meaning mainstream left who just goes along with the program, filling the blanks of the pathological theories while convincing themselves they're on the 'good side'. I think many of the senators I've seen on the recent hearing about bill 16 in Canada fall into that category.]

Pathological acceptance is manifested by individuals with psychological deficiencies of their own: diversiform deviations, whether inherited or acquired, as well as by many people bearing personality malformations or who have been injured by social injustice. That explains why this scope is wider than the circle drawn by direct action of pathological factors. Pathological acceptance of schizoidal writings or declarations by other deviants often brutalizes the authors’ concepts and promotes ideas of force and revolutionary means.

[Witness the leading SJW types who don't even have a clue about the postmodernist theories and just scream insulting nonsense at people who don't share their pathological world view. They just use postmodernism as some vague tool for their sick revolution.]

The passage of time and bitter experience has unfortunately not prevented this characteristic misunderstanding born of schizoid nineteenth-century creativity, with Marx’s works at the fore, from affecting people and depriving them of their common sense.

[Interesting that Marx still plays such a big role with various forms of postmodernist movements. However, what Lobaczewski wrote above about "brutalization" of the theories applies here as well - the activist types just take some vague concepts from Marx and run with it for their own purposes.]
 
Imagine if, for example, blind people started demanding "equal" rights with all other people, like the right to drive cars or something to that effect? Should the society in such case pretend that the blind have equal abilities with the sighted and start issuing driving licenses for them, so that the former didn't feel "discriminated", "insulted", "hurt", etc.? Obviously not, because that would result in multiple road casualties, detrimental for ALL members of such society, including the blind themselves.

Same goes for this gender-fluidity idea, IMO.
 
I think some people tend to take a rather naive tack when dealing with post-modernists, however they choose to manifest. They could be social-constructionists, or socialists, or anarchists or what not. One should never really take them, or what they say, at face value. Their main defense lies in the, largely post modern, belief that a person should be judged by their intent, as opposed to their results. It really doesn't matter how many hundreds of millions of people you kill, as long as you meant well.

I think Gellner, at least in "Words and Things" implicitly got onto this idea, that is that these people are playing a game, and they know they are playing a game, and in a way they are laughing at us because we just aren't in on the joke.

If you want to understand the entirety of liberal philosophy and post modernism, read Graham Greene's "The Destructors." You may remember a reference to that story in "Donnie Darko."

Set in the mid-1950s, the story is about the "Wormsley Common Gang", a boys' gang named after the place where they live. The protagonist Trevor, or "T.", devises a plan to destroy a beautiful two-hundred-year-old house that survived The Blitz. The gang accepts the plan by T., their new leader, and executes it when the owner of the house, Mr. Thomas (whom the gang call "Old Misery"), is away during a bank holiday weekend. Their plan is to destroy the house from inside, then tear down the remaining outer structure. Mr. Thomas returns home early, however, and the gang locks him in the outhouse. T. refuses to stop until the destruction job is complete, because even the facade is valuable and could be reused. Inside, they find a mattress filled with money—which they burn. The final destruction of the house occurs when a lorry pulls away a support pole from the side of the house. Mr. Thomas is released from the outhouse by the lorry driver to see the rubble of what once was his home. When the driver finds the situation funny Mr. Thomas is incensed, but he is still unable to stop laughing.

The purpose of the philosophy has really always been to service the resentment of the systemic unfairness of biological life. "Why should anyone suffer?" soon becomes "Why should anyone profit?" The logical course of action is to destroy all of life because it doesn't adhere to someone's disturbed ideal. The promulgation of the ideal, regardless of how silly it is, serves to promulgate the inevitable solution. How very convenient that the whole thing can be couched in the terms of "good intentions", and so serves to seduce people into its ideological sphere of control with the promise of good "belly feels", and at the same time serves to maintain people within the system (you can't be outside of it and still be a good person. There be racists, bigots, sexists! This idea is developed along different terms also by Gellner in his book on the psychoanalytic movement. The inescapability of the ideology is a dominant feature, not an accident. This feature is an essential inheritance of The Enlightenment.

People misunderstand the social construction of gender to be a serious theory subject to logic, it is not. It is a weapon. It was observed long ago that certain types of people are undesirable, quite naturally. They were undesirable because of their "identity", more often that not conferred on them by society, and largely because of objective criteria. Identities like "felon", "rapist", "promiscuous woman", "homosexual", "atheist" and so on. Early attempts at systematizing identity led to racism as a doctrine, which was conspicuously practiced by the left, not the so-called "right."

When a person is undesirable, violence against them is usually justified, that is regardless of how much you torture a serial killer, no one will really get up in arms about it. No one would really mind if a rapist is raped, or a murderer is murdered. This provided the psychopathic individual with an interesting opportunity, if only he or she could construct a system of thought where identities are malleable constructs that can be "adopted" at will as "defensive identities" and flung at enemies as "offensive identities."

Identity then, must not depend on objective categories. But once one does that, it behooves social participants to want to be in certain categories (the defensive ones) and to place anyone they see as a threat in the offensive ones (racist, bigot, sexist, child molester, rapist, 1 percenter and so on).

This is the meta-game being played, and the rest is really a kind of ideational tar baby. If you interact with the actual stated ideas, you are trapped, and the more you interact and try to sort things out, the more trapped you will become.

In a sense this has been the problem of "The Enlightenment" as a whole, though it has evolved over time. We should all be so lucky as to get to name our movement. The Enlightenment sounds so much better than "The Ideas that destroyed western culture, and might destroy all of life."

The Enlightenment is really the Triumph of materialism and atheism. Even my beloved Gellner cannot escape the essential nature of secular thought, it's compulsion to atomization (and all the limitations that come with it) and its restrictive epistemology that not only eschews, but implicitly repudiates, a priori knowledge, i.e. transcendent knowledge. But wrapped up in this rejection of the transcendent is the rejection of objective truth and therefore objective moral standards. You can duct-tape it all together as much as you like, but post-modernism is just the movement of the children of The Enlightenment finally taking itself seriously.

Of course, each generation of liberals is never happy when the next generation is just more liberal than them, so they create sort of ridiculous reactionary positions like "Classical Liberal" and set them in opposition to "Neo-Liberal", which is really just Classical Liberal^2. It's a bit like Dragonball Z, there's an ever increasing level of Saijanness.

Asking if gender is socially constructed is like asking if the moon is made of cheese. No, it's not. What is more, if it was, it wouldn't matter because gender expression serves a pragmatic purpose, and there's no reason to tolerate people who want to "opt-out" of the system. We used to throw such people off cliffs, or burn them at stakes. There was a logic to it. When we stopped doing that we got rid of some knotty problems, but then inherited a whole bunch more.

The current work of the post-modernist, the progressivist, and the liberal is to control our interpretations of history (he who controls the past, controls the present) in order to keep one step ahead of anyone who might actually go back and look and get all kinds of ideas about traditionalism. They may even become conservatives. All of these arguments are couched within very specific and largely secular narratives that what we came from was very bad, and what we're going towards is very good. The real problem is that so many of our assumptions about what happened in the past are simply false. If we didn't have these false ideas, then many of the talking points of the post modernists, and liberals, would sound as absurd as they actually are. We often forget, that for a long time there was a struggle between the liberal progressive ideology and conservatism. It is only in the last century that it was more or less decided (around the 1960s) and conservatives mainly lost the fight (and thus became a kind of weaponized identity, largely akin to racist, sexist, homophobe). Since then we have had a sampling of the direction and evolution of liberal ideology in control and many people instinctively don't like it.

This seems to raise the issue that when we are talking about some specific vector of post-modernist thought that we are really talking about the underlying post-modernist leviathan poking some part of itself above the surface, and if you grab any bit of post-modernism and hold on, you'll get pulled under and see some shadow of the mass of this ideology. Its tendrils go everywhere, atheism, materialism, psychology and social psychology, Science-with-a-capital-s, anthropology, politics and its subdoctrines (anarchism, facism-anti-facism, anarchocapitalism, laissez-faire capitalism, socialism, feminism etc) and on an on. So really it is the hydra, and cutting off one head is not enough, you have to cauterize the wound whenever you excise its malignancy.
 
Atreides said:
In a sense this has been the problem of "The Enlightenment" as a whole, though it has evolved over time. We should all be so lucky as to get to name our movement. The Enlightenment sounds so much better than "The Ideas that destroyed western culture, and might destroy all of life."

The Enlightenment is really the Triumph of materialism and atheism. Even my beloved Gellner cannot escape the essential nature of secular thought, it's compulsion to atomization (and all the limitations that come with it) and its restrictive epistemology that not only eschews, but implicitly repudiates, a priori knowledge, i.e. transcendent knowledge. But wrapped up in this rejection of the transcendent is the rejection of objective truth and therefore objective moral standards. You can duct-tape it all together as much as you like, but post-modernism is just the movement of the children of The Enlightenment finally taking itself seriously.

Very interesting, and I think you put it very well. I still struggle with 'throwing out the enlightenment' so to speak, but there is no doubt that it contained the seed for the philosophical and spiritual crisis we find ourselves in. After reading Sheldrake's "The Science Delusion" and some other things about this topic, not to mention Laura's books, it became totally obvious to me that materialism/reductionism is totally absurd and riddled with contradictions and delusions - to the point I can hardly understand anymore how people would take this seriously! But there it is, most people do, and most scientists do. But this lets them enter a vortex of delusions they can never escape.

But...

Atreides said:
The current work of the post-modernist, the progressivist, and the liberal is to control our interpretations of history (he who controls the past, controls the present) in order to keep one step ahead of anyone who might actually go back and look and get all kinds of ideas about traditionalism. They may even become conservatives. All of these arguments are couched within very specific and largely secular narratives that what we came from was very bad, and what we're going towards is very good. The real problem is that so many of our assumptions about what happened in the past are simply false. If we didn't have these false ideas, then many of the talking points of the post modernists, and liberals, would sound as absurd as they actually are. We often forget, that for a long time there was a struggle between the liberal progressive ideology and conservatism. It is only in the last century that it was more or less decided (around the 1960s) and conservatives mainly lost the fight (and thus became a kind of weaponized identity, largely akin to racist, sexist, homophobe). Since then we have had a sampling of the direction and evolution of liberal ideology in control and many people instinctively don't like it.

I see your point, but to add some thoughts: I like the idea Jordan Peterson always emphasizes - that there is always a struggle going on in society between conservative forces and those forces that seek to renew/change society. Right now, there's clearly a huge imbalance, which oddly enough puts the conservatives in the role of revolutionaries that rightly seek to bring back more traditional values.

However, this has not always been the case. Part of the reason I think that the postmodernists were able to hijack society the way they did was because in the 50's, the imbalance was more towards conservatism, and many people didn't like it. When my father tells me how he grew up in post-Nazi Germany, for example, I can kind of understand why his generation turned into revolutionary zealots, misguided as their movement was. I mean, they had Nazi teachers and Nazi nurses who still practiced the Nazi education method as outlined in popular books written under the Nazis and still widely sold in the 50's and 60's. These methods aimed at killing the bonds to their parents so that they would bond with the state instead. It was brutal. Their parents were traumatized, harsh and unstable. Children were put into cupboards for hours, beaten and ridiculed if they didn't conform to their educators' harsh and often misguided ideals. So I would say this represented the other extreme, and it wasn't good either.

Thinking about it, maybe there is a direct line from the enlightenment to this 'conservative' stage of the 50's too: after all, the authoritarian Prussian school system and the harsh education that went along with it was in part a consequence of the industrialization, which in turn was in part a consequence of the enlightenment and the 'death of god'. The Nazi education and the 50's in Germany (and elsewhere) were of course based on these Prussian ideals, even though the Nazis took it one step further with their destruction of the family bonds. So, maybe the pre-enlightenment times had some advantages as well, though human suffering and ponerization seem to be human universals. Just some thoughts.
 
You bring up some very good points. I really don't have an answer to anything specific, just some thoughts or ideas that may or may not be worth thinking about.

luc said:
I see your point, but to add some thoughts: I like the idea Jordan Peterson always emphasizes - that there is always a struggle going on in society between conservative forces and those forces that seek to renew/change society. Right now, there's clearly a huge imbalance, which oddly enough puts the conservatives in the role of revolutionaries that rightly seek to bring back more traditional values.

That is true. The logical conclusion is that each force should act in distinct opposition in order to be effective, otherwise one force will dominate. It is the intellectual fabianism of secular systems of thought which get us into this mess. The point is to represent a force in life and actually fight for it. The universe works because parts of the universe do what they are meant to do, a lot. It would be very bad if Gravity decided to consider the perspectives of other forces in the universe. Maybe it would decide, some of these other universal forces might have a worthwhile position - at which point the universe would explode and everyone would die.

There is nothing wrong with those messages in the body which signal cellular apoptosis, but if that's all they do, then you'd die. It's easy to wear the pretense of disaffected enlightenment - but it wears thin the closer you get to the cliff.

luc said:
However, this has not always been the case. Part of the reason I think that the postmodernists were able to hijack society the way they did was because in the 50's, the imbalance was more towards conservatism,

Is that true, or is it part of the narrative?

luc said:
and many people didn't like it. When my father tells me how he grew up in post-Nazi Germany, for example, I can kind of understand why his generation turned into revolutionary zealots, misguided as their movement was. I mean, they had Nazi teachers and Nazi nurses who still practiced the Nazi education method as outlined in popular books written under the Nazis and still widely sold in the 50's and 60's.

Were NAZIs conservative? This brings up the issue of left/right distinctions. For liberals, these distinctions are important and profound. To anyone outside the liberal ideology it's the difference between an Episcopalian and a Methodist. Which is to say, none.

luc said:
These methods aimed at killing the bonds to their parents so that they would bond with the state instead. It was brutal. Their parents were traumatized, harsh and unstable. Children were put into cupboards for hours, beaten and ridiculed if they didn't conform to their educators' harsh and often misguided ideals. So I would say this represented the other extreme, and it wasn't good either.

Thinking about it, maybe there is a direct line from the enlightenment to this 'conservative' stage of the 50's too:

This whole discussion is complicated by natural forces. Much of the problem we are discussing might not have happened if so much of the world hadn't be wracked by war and revolution at the start of the 20th century. I think these things go far deeper and start much earlier. An interesting point would be, depending on your bent, what caused the 50s is an interesting historical investigation. The narrative here is core to modern liberalism, after all, the 50s is marked by racism, segregation and so on (also all conveniently practiced exclusively by the left). It's a rather neat attack on conservatism, because if the narrative is accepted, then conservatism must be racist, sexist and bigoted. There is nothing worth conserving (this is the opinion of modern post-modernists anyhow). Even modern conservatives are often compelled to accept the narrative. The emotional, mental and moral destructiveness of this doctrine cannot be overstated.

luc said:
after all, the authoritarian Prussian school system and the harsh education that went along with it was in part a consequence of the industrialization, which in turn was in part a consequence of the enlightenment and the 'death of god'. The Nazi education and the 50's in Germany (and elsewhere) were of course based on these Prussian ideals, even though the Nazis took it one step further with their destruction of the family bonds. So, maybe the pre-enlightenment times had some advantages as well, though human suffering and ponerization seem to be human universals. Just some thoughts.

This is I think largely a product of the liberal narrative. The idea that National Socialism and Hitler somehow had their genesis in the bad old rough Prussians and not the limp wristed pontificating of Marxists is obviously attractive to liberals as it relieves them of responsibility and conveniently puts that responsibility on the shoulders of their ideological rivals.

On this topic it's very easy to miss the forest for the trees. It's like trying to talk about a political movement without considering the effects of pathology and psychopathology on it's participants, which won't get you very far. When it comes to post modernism it's not a question of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, it's a question of whether or not to climb to the top of the tower first.
 
luc said:
FWIW, Jordan Peterson recommends this book on postmodernism (haven't read it yet):

Explaining Postmodernism: Skepticism and Socialism from Rousseau to Foucault
by Stephen R. C. Hicks

Tracing postmodernism from its roots in Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Immanuel Kant to their development in thinkers such as Michel Foucault and Richard Rorty, philosopher Stephen Hicks provides a provocative account of why postmodernism has been the most vigorous intellectual movement of the late 20th century. Why do skeptical and relativistic arguments have such power in the contemporary intellectual world? Why do they have that power in the humanities but not in the sciences? Why has a significant portion of the political Left - the same Left that traditionally promoted reason, science, equality for all, and optimism - now switched to themes of anti-reason, anti-science, double standards, and cynicism? Explaining Postmodernism is intellectual history with a polemical twist, providing fresh insights into the debates underlying the furor over political correctness, multiculturalism, and the future of liberal democracy. This expanded edition includes two additional essays by Stephen Hicks, *Free Speech and Postmodernism* and *From Modern to Postmodern Art: Why Art Became Ugly*.

_https://www.amazon.com/Explaining-Postmodernism-Skepticism-Socialism-Rousseau/dp/0983258406

First edition of the book is available as YT audiobook, or mp3 and PDF files on Hicks's website:
http://www.stephenhicks.org/explaining-postmodernism/

I'd recommend it for everyone who may have problems with understanding some parts of Gellner's writing, as I have, or as a very good and accessible introduction to the postmodernism phenomena. A bit different approach but fully relevant to the problem at hand.
 
Atreides said:
luc said:
However, this has not always been the case. Part of the reason I think that the postmodernists were able to hijack society the way they did was because in the 50's, the imbalance was more towards conservatism,

Is that true, or is it part of the narrative?

I don't know, I really don't. To me, it seems that yes, the liberal types are exaggerating the evilness of the 50's, that's mostly the narrative of the 68 generation who bullied their way up the ladder of power and scream their version of history from their tower ever since. However, that doesn't mean that society was great in the 50's either, or that those who wanted change back then didn't have a point. But I'm not sure about all this.

As you say, these questions can't be answered I guess without taking ponerization, psychopathy and even more esoteric 'lines of force' into account. All I know (I think) is that from a bird's perspective, there seems to be a trend towards spiritual destruction happening in stages for a very long time. Materialism, Marxism, Nazism, postmodernism etc. all play their part in that as far as I can tell.

Still thinking about all this and you gave me some interesting food for thought, thanks for that.
 
Laura said:
Another angle of postmodernism:


https://youtu.be/Tb2iFikOwYU

Watch it; it's not what you might think. But it lays bare the problem of our times.

Still listening to the YT video but was immediately reminded of this site (dubbed, "Library of Hate"):
_http://archive.is/LRe05
Basically it compiles a whole lot of statistics related to race, gender, etc.
Some would label it as racist (the publisher/site owner even admits as much and call the stats as "hatefacts") but from a scientific point of view it should just be regarded as just data.
 
Atreides said:
luc said:
However, this has not always been the case. Part of the reason I think that the postmodernists were able to hijack society the way they did was because in the 50's, the imbalance was more towards conservatism,

Is that true, or is it part of the narrative?

I think it is part of the narrative. I think postmodernists are deluded because they ascribe to themselves and society at large a level of intellectual and emotional sophistication or development that they simply do not have. Sitting on ones rear end all day in a cushy university or government job affords a lot of time to imagine that, because our technological, 'modern' society is so evolved, humans must be too. 'We're ready for the stars! Unleash the boundless human potential and creativity! Let every man and woman be free to define the world as they see fit and make it so!' NO THANKS. Because most people are not so evolved, they are, to coin a phrase, not long out of the trees and are dominated still by animalistic drives. Or to describe it more palatably, adults humans are like children. What parent would think it a good idea to give free reign to their child's ideas of how the world should be organized and then let them set about doing it. Maybe throw in a few boxes of matches for good measure.

There is more than enough evidence to show that critical or rational thinking goes out the window when human's emotional/survival button is pushed, and with it all of the ideas of enlightenment and "The Enlightenment". If these postmodernists in their cushy government or university offices were engaged in the kind of hard work in the kind of societies that have defined most of human history, they would be far less inclined (and have far less time) to dream of such fanciful social orders that will bring only chaos to the very fragile structures of human society.

The only thing that ever has or ever will hold human society together through good times and bad is basic values and codes of behavior agreed upon by all (or the majority) because they know from experience that they work. That doesn't mean they are ideal, but they are the best human has really ever had, and wise people know it and know not to rock the boat by allowing a ground swell of deranged intellectuals to force us all to throw off the 'shackles' of the only thing that can keep human society from descending into abstraction-based mindless chaos.
 
Well, I always considered gender and sex the same thing. If you're male, you're male, and that's it, and it's pretty well fixed on 3D. A difference I do see is in what is defined as gender roles, and I do believe some intellectuals had a legitimate beef with these preconceived notions. There was the old model that the man was responsible for providing a house and an income, and he was supposed to be kind of like GI Joe, or maybe some kind of high-powered businessperson, and the woman stayed at home and was, to be as concise as possible, essentially a baby machine. Now there are biological underpinnings that may predispose males and females to have certain tendencies in this direction, but to hold up that model as the only model of "success" I find a little narrow-minded and I think there was some justified rebellion against it. So in my opinion gender roles, which are a social construct albeit with some biological influence, should be a bit less rigid to eliminate this whole manufactured men are from Mars, women are from Venus dichotomy. You see a little bit of that with stay at home dads, but the gulf of separation is still vast. If a woman wants to be a baby machine, that's fine, and if a man wants to hug and hold hands with his male friends, that's fine who cares.

The twist seems to have occurred where the libtards are saying that your agreement or disagreement with these gender roles somehow changes your physical biology, which is completely absurd. It's so obviously absurd and they're so desperate to "create their own reality" that anyone who bursts their solipsistic bubble and doesn't reinforce their illusions must be eliminated because it causes an element of truth to intrude on their carefully constructed delusion. An effeminate man is still a man; I don't understand why this is so difficult to understand, and why a whole additional layer of abstraction signifying nothing really, has to be created to sort yourself into what kind of man you are. Why can't people be who they are without having to don these superfluous masks?

Well, it's divide and conquer and destroying people's ability to function as conscious units by getting them to deny the most basic facts about our world. Eventually you're just left with a bunch of vapid shells ripe to be "taken over."
 
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