Is it Objective comment, or a subtle insult?

neema

Jedi Master
Hello all,

Although I have posted on cass-chat before, this is the first post on here for me.

So the situation is actually an incident that occurred to me recently. In this situation, I am involved with conversing with two of my friends. These two friends are not well acquainted, and we all had decided to hang out and chat and get acquainted and have a couple of drinks. So after a few shots, an incident occurs. Old friend turns to new friend and just out of the blue, "hey you're a big guy you probably are good at fighting". Gets up and starts to pretend kick. The people in question are, Me=28 years, Old Friend=26 new friend=24. WE are not talking about kids here. The new friend is Russian (hence the big guy comment), and is very esoterically inclined. Old friend is into alternative media. Now I have been around a block couple times in my life, so I can see how easily a pretend kick can gradually and suddenly turn to a real one, with a bonus ride on the ambulance. So I stopped them, or should I say my old friend. How, well this is where my predicament comes in. I turned to the old friend and asked him in a firm tone, that "what the hell are you doing." "This is not how normal people interact with each other in this context." At that very moment since we live out in the countryside, the neighbour's dog started to bark. And quite funny I saw how my old friend, was acting just like an animal guard dog. And I turn to him and said, "You hear that dog, he is an animal. Right now it has no capability of thinking because of his animalistic instinct to guard. You are acting the same. If you insist on behaving and acting like a dog, well looks like he's looking for a fight." To which he responded that I have insulted his honour. And as I tried to explain to him that it was not meant as an insult, it just happened in that very moment that he was acting like a guard dog there was a guard dog barking. And further I tried to explain how this, is neither the time nor the place for such activity, and how these things have a huge possibility of going right out of hand and someone getting hurt. To which he no longer wanted to hear, and kept repeating to me that, what am I, "his dad". At which point I stopped. The advice that was given to me on the situation came from my spouse Nina. Since she observed the situation and she was not drinking, I believe her to be an objective observer in that situation. Her advice was simply that I was out of line and that I should have seen the consequence of such a comment. And yes it was an insult and I should have known better. And she also recommended actually to interact with this forum, as so I can work on seeing the consequences. Nina, maybe a tiny little girl on the outside, but she is wise beyond her years and has taught me many things. So her words are very influential to me. In the month or so since the incident I have been going through the situation in my head, and I believe Nina's advise to be on the money. This incident and others have made me realise how direct I am in general. And on more than one occasion "I say it the way it is". I think I am beginning to realise how that approach is very limited, if your goal is true understandable communication. I believe I failed because my emotions in that moment blocked me from putting myself in his shoes, and that is very different than when you say well if it was me and I was told that I wouldn't get insulted. To truly put your self in someone's place is to truly see it from their perspective according to their current knowledge input capabilities and all of their observable limitations. So I thought I would share this experience to the group. And ask how any of you guys would have interacted in that situation. Oh ya, the interesting thing about this whole incident is that my old friend in question is actually a security guard at a local hospital. Go figure! lol

Nima.
 

Beau

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The action of the old friend towards a stranger(to him) were not very smart. That being said, turning to him and saying in a certain tone "what the hell are you doing" probably was not the best way to deal with the situation. The old friend's ego was more than likely bruised, and being a guy he was not going to react in such a way as to be contrite about his actions. I'm not surprised at all that he was upset. Comparing his actions to an animal, while probably correct, isn't going to make him feel any better either.

But I do understand you trying to control the situation so that your new Russian friend did not get upset by the other guy's actions. It's a tough place to be, for sure. But hey, he's an adult too and you should not feel responsible for trying to control the incident so that it doesn't denigrate into actual fighting. The guy who threw the kick was being a jackass, in a sense. I say that because even though I don't think a little shadow boxing is going to hurt anyone, typically it's something that occurs between people who know each other and have a mutual respect, in case someone does accidentally land a blow. Two people who don't know each other might be tempted to defend their masculinity and then you have a possibility of a real fight.

So I guess the best course of action is to try and observe everything that's happening and think, Is saying "the way it is" going to benefit this situation, or only make it worse? In this case, it made it worse, apparently. There may be a time when it will be smart to not filter so I'm not saying you should stifle this part of you. For the most part, I appreciate that kind of person. But sometimes you have to be "wise as serpents and gentle as doves" :cool:
 

Beau

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BTW, I'm going to move this thread to The Work sub-section of the forum. It fits much better there :)
 

ScioAgapeOmnis

The Living Force
neema said:
Old friend turns to new friend and just out of the blue, "hey you're a big guy you probably are good at fighting".
I think that's an arrogant and presumptuous thing of him to say. He just insulted your "new friend"! That's like saying "hey you're black you're probably good at rapping, go ahead rap something!".

Gets up and starts to pretend kick.
But if your new friend is not interested in "pretend kicking" then your old is not just arrogant and presumptuous, now he's inconsiderate and put your new friend in a very uncomfortable situation, imho. I personally don't like being pretend-kicked, I will not pretend kick back, but I would entertain the thought of really kicking if saying "stop" does not work.

The new friend is Russian (hence the big guy comment), and is very esoterically inclined.
What connection does his Russian nationality have to the big guy comment? I'm Russian but I'm not a "big guy".

I turned to the old friend and asked him in a firm tone, that "what the hell are you doing." "This is not how normal people interact with each other in this context."
Right, only inconsiderate and arrogant people would do something like this! It is childish and can be offensive and extremely irritating. I'd not be surprised if your "new friend" never chooses to "hang out" with your old friend ever again - I wouldn't!

At that very moment since we live out in the countryside, the neighbour's dog started to bark. And quite funny I saw how my old friend, was acting just like an animal guard dog. And I turn to him and said, "You hear that dog, he is an animal. Right now it has no capability of thinking because of his animalistic instinct to guard. You are acting the same. If you insist on behaving and acting like a dog, well looks like he's looking for a fight."
Right on the money in my opinion.

To which he responded that I have insulted his honour.
You cannot insult the honor of someone who has no honor. So he's wrong, his behavior was inconsiderate and disrespectful, and although "honor" is a pretty subjective and vague term that is often used interchangeably with EGO (like you friend used it), the only honor you insulted was his ego in my opinion. Personally I see nothing wrong with what you said, it was mild in comparison to what I'd probably want to say in a similar situation if my "friend" did something like this.

To which he no longer wanted to here, and kept repeating to me that, what am I, "his dad".
Your friend is using distorted reasoning conditioned into him by the pathocracy (or he's a psychopath himself). You are acting as a good friend to both, your "new friend" and your "old friend" by saying what you did, since it was correct! Your friend is hurt because his ego cannot handle it, but that is NOt the same as being insulted - but what he said to your new friend WAS an insult! He's right though - you're not his dad, and so you're not stuck with him, and so if he continues to act this way you have the option to choose not to hang out with him. But apparently he's not planning to stop since he doesn't even grok that he did anything wrong and in fact made YOU the enemy even if you actually did the right and decent thing. And I What sort of "alternative media" does he like, must be the likes of Alex Jones...

Just my 2 cents.
 

Laura

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Yeah, what you said was pretty inflammatory and just poured fuel on the fire. The old saying is: "a Soft answer turns away wrath." So you could have just said, "Yeah, he's a pretty big guy - and so are you - but I'm enjoying chilling out and if you want to get rowdy, wait 'til I'm gone... I get sick at the sight of blood... I'm a wimp... " And if you say something like that in a joking way, and follow it with a serious question for the rowdy one to answer, it will distract him and give him a face saving way to back down. And then, remember that this friend who gets rowdy with just a couple of drinks is maybe not someone you want to hang out with.
 

Russ

Jedi Master
This seems to be relevant - Bataris Box:

http://www(dot)aegis-training.com/Aegis_Training_for_Security/LINKS/attitude_lock_in%20.htm

Edit: HAHAHHA I just noticed its on a security guard training website!! ;)
 

kenlee

SuperModerator
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neema said:
Hello all,

Although I have posted on cass-chat before, this is the first post on here for me.

So the situation is actually an incident that occurred to me recently. In this situation, I am involved with conversing with two of my friends. These two friends are not well acquainted, and we all had decided to hang out and chat and get acquainted and have a couple of drinks. So after a few shots, an incident occurs. Old friend turns to new friend and just out of the blue, "hey you're a big guy you probably are good at fighting". Gets up and starts to pretend kick. The people in question are, Me=28 years, Old Friend=26 new friend=24. WE are not talking about kids here.
I've seen "playfights" turn into real fights so your friend was acting immature here. Regarding your very last statement, I'd say that we ARE taking about kids here because most men are very insecure and they can have a major emotional "religious crisis" if they lose at even a simple idiotic game of tidily winks. So, considering what I said in my last statement then for your friend to play the "kick that big hulking Russian bear next to him" game might indeed lead to a major world war. Not too smart.

The new friend is Russian (hence the big guy comment), and is very esoterically inclined. Old friend is into alternative media. Now I have been around a block couple times in my life, so I can see how easily a pretend kick can gradually and suddenly turn to a real one, with a bonus ride on the ambulance.
Indeed, so far so good. Imo, your observation is a wise and realistic one.

So I stopped them, or should I say my old friend. How, well this is where my predicament comes in. I turned to the old friend and asked him in a firm tone, that "what the hell are you doing." "This is not how normal people interact with each other in this context."
Whoa! This is where you were probably throwing fuel on the fire. Better to neutralize the situation with something like humour rather then re-affirming his agression by saying to him "what the hell are you doing." That's a challenge, bro!

At that very moment since we live out in the countryside, the neighbour's dog started to bark. And quite funny I saw how my old friend, was acting just like an animal guard dog.
It might be that the dog was warning you since you were the one who noticed the barking dog. Perhaps the dog was warning you to "properly" warn your friend?

And I turn to him and said, "You hear that dog, he is an animal. Right now it has no capability of thinking because of his animalistic instinct to guard. You are acting the same. If you insist on behaving and acting like a dog, well looks like he's looking for a fight."
Hey, yo, take your own advice!

To which he responded that I have insulted his honour. And as I tried to explain to him that it was not meant as an insult, it just happened in that very moment that he was acting like a guard dog there was a guard dog barking. And further I tried to explain how this, is neither the time nor the place for such activity, and how these things have a huge possibility of going right out of hand and someone getting hurt. To which he no longer wanted to here, and kept repeating to me that, what am I, "his dad".
Better for you to act like a friend at this point rather then like a lecturing dad.

At which point I stopped. The advice that was given to me on the situation came from my spouse Nina. Since she observed the situation and she was not drinking, I believe her to be an objective observer in that situation. Her advice was simply that I was out of line and that I should have seen the consequence of such a comment. And yes it was an insult and I should have known better. And she also recommended actually to interact with this forum, as so I can work on seeing the consequences. Nina, maybe a tiny little girl on the outside, but she is wise beyond her years and has taught me many things. So her words are very influential to me. In the month or so since the incident I have been going through the situation in my head, and I believe Nina's advise to be on the money. This incident and others have made me realise how direct I am in general. And on more than one occasion "I say it the way it is".
I think Nina gave you good advice. I think what happens is that we start off advising someone and then we end up "telling them."

I think I am beginning to realise how that approach is very limited, if your goal is true understandable communication. I believe I failed because my emotions in that moment blocked me from putting myself in his shoes, and that is very different than when you say well if it was me and I was told that I wouldn't get insulted. To truly put your self in someone's place is to truly see it from their perspective according to their current knowledge input capabilities and all of their observable limitations. So I thought I would share this experience to the group. And ask how any of you guys would have interacted in that situation. Oh ya, the interesting thing about this whole incident is that my old friend in question is actually a security guard at a local hospital. Go figure! lol

Nima
Well, I don't see you as failing at all. It's a learning process. Someone once said that perfection is not being perfect but it's just getting better and better at what you do. So it's a learning process. I'm not sure what I'd do. I'd most likely take my friend aside and advise him without lecturing. Maybe I'd let him know that I'd seen guys get into stupid fist fights doing things like he was doing but I'd phrase it in such a way so as to make it easy for him to make up his own mind on the issue.

But then again it's easy for me to say that since I now have had the advantage of learning something from your own experience that you have just posted here... :)
 

neema

Jedi Master
Hi guys tanks for the responses, and since I have had some time to think and also discuss it with my new friend (A), I have come to even further conclusion which I am going to share.


beau said:
BTW, I'm going to move this thread to The Work sub-section of the forum. It fits much better there :)
Yes I agree thanx.

Laura said:
Yeah, what you said was pretty inflammatory and just poured fuel on the fire.
Yes that is also my conclusion. If the goal is to communicate, and not jut try to make a point, but to truly want to communicate, my approach reduced any chance of it occurring.

Laura said:
The old saying is: "a Soft answer turns away wrath." So you could have just said, "Yeah, he's a pretty big guy - and so are you - but I'm enjoying chilling out and if you want to get rowdy, wait 'til I'm gone... I get sick at the sight of blood... I'm a wimp... " And if you say something like that in a joking way, and follow it with a serious question for the rowdy one to answer, it will distract him and give him a face saving way to back down.
That to me sounds like a very logical approach to that situation, also further since I have discussed it with (A); I have learned that actually it was not such a big deal for him. Also we further agreed that actually it was a mater of self importance on my part and a sort of a lesson abridgment. In a sense I should not have been afraid of the lesson at hand for the individuals in question, and should have allowed the universe to flow as it should and the key would be timing as to when to discuss the philosophical side. One thing he did admit which I brought to his attention was the hidden energy dynamic at play, and feeding aspects of such an interaction.

ScioAgapeOmnis said:
Your friend is using distorted reasoning conditioned into him by the pathocracy (or he's a psychopath himself). You are acting as a good friend to both, your "new friend" and your "old friend" by saying what you did, since it was correct! Your friend is hurt because his ego cannot handle it, but that is NOt the same as being insulted - but what he said to your new friend WAS an insult! He's right though - you're not his dad, and so you're not stuck with him, and so if he continues to act this way you have the option to choose not to hang out with him. But apparently he's not planning to stop since he doesn't even grok that he did anything wrong and in fact made YOU the enemy even if you actually did the right and decent thing.
I disagree. Although at the time I had a similar thoughts to ones you have mentioned, and do agree with in principal, but as it has been so famously been used, "the devil is in the details." I now think that my actions ware based on emotions and in actuality did "fail" both of my friends.

First; I failed my new friend, by not allowing or having confidence in he's ability to handle the situation and hence learn and grow naturally as it should, and not as I see it.
Second, the more significant one in my opinion, I failed my old friend by not being able to communicate with him as it could have led to actual insight and growth. I guess it boils down to the purpose of my actions, and in my goal of communication I failed. I believe my Ego program of wanting to be right, kicked in and kicked me right into the matrix. No pun intended lol. And who knows I know guys have weird bonding rituals and maybe this was such a thing. In the end, as ark says, "it's in the details"

And what's interesting that's how we grow by learning from our "failures" or lessons by paying attention to the details.

ScioAgapeOmnis said:
And I what sort of "alternative media" does he like, must be the likes of Alex Jones...
lol its funny you should mention that, I don't know if he is into Alex but I know he loves David Ike.

thnaks nima.
 

neema

Jedi Master
neema said:
And who knows I know guys have weird bonding rituals and maybe this was such a thing.
I noticed this in my response that was interesting. Bonding rituals, now isn't that a hidden energy dynamic at play??


kenlee said:
Whoa! This is where you were probably throwing fuel on the fire. Better to neutralize the situation with something like humour rather then re-affirming his agression by saying to him "what the hell are you doing." That's a challenge, bro!
Agreed. Humor is an excellent way to contain self importance imo.

kenlee said:
it might be that the dog was warning you since you were the one who noticed the barking dog. Perhaps the dog was warning you to "properly" warn your friend?
Interesting, never thought about that, than again that dog is always barking at something.

kenlee said:
Hey, yo, take your own advice!
Again Agreed.

kenlee said:
Better for you to act like a friend at this point rather then like a lecturing dad.
It's funny how clear that is to me now :)

Nima.
 

ScioAgapeOmnis

The Living Force
In hindsight I think reacted kinda emotionally to this situation as it hit a little too close to home. I went through some pretty "bad" experiences with certain bullies in school and your old friend just reminded me of the sort of behavior I saw in them. Any opposition I voiced to their actions were always met with a "how dare you" type of reaction like I attacked them just by being upset or defending myself. So when I see something like that happening to someone else I might have too much of a hair trigger due to the emotions that get fired up :\
 

neema

Jedi Master
I also think in my situation it hit close to home so to speak.
When I think back to that situation, my self-importance program is a creation of past experiences with bullies, as most of my high-school life I was the 'outcast'. Goes to show how important it is not to identify with past experiences, and merely reflect back and see as to the lesson at hand.

nima.
 

Redrock12

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
All psycho-analyzing aside, with friends like Old Friend, you don't need enemies. It seems this guy likes to pick fights when he's been drinking, and most probably with individuals who he probably figures he can beat without too much trouble. In fact, drinking may give him the excuse he needs to punch somebody's lights out; ie, be a bully
But if in fact drinking does cause him to be aggressive, then maybe he should seriously consider permanent abstinence, especially if this is an ongoing problem. And perhaps you should check your own motives in choosing to associate with folks like Old Friend, especially if he has a history of this kind of behavior.
Having grown up in an environment where this kind of an incident was not uncommon, I get the feeling that-and I may be wrong-you are attempting to trivialize his behavior. The next time he has a few drinks, he could very well end up maiming or even killing somebody or vice versa. Such incidents should be taken much more seriously.
 

Joe

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neema said:
So the situation is actually an incident that occurred to me recently. In this situation, I am involved with conversing with two of my friends. These two friends are not well acquainted, and we all had decided to hang out and chat and get acquainted and have a couple of drinks. So after a few shots, an incident occurs. Old friend turns to new friend and just out of the blue, "hey you're a big guy you probably are good at fighting". Gets up and starts to pretend kick. The people in question are, Me=28 years, Old Friend=26 new friend=24. WE are not talking about kids here.
I kind of had to smile at the comment "we are not talking about kids here", because the scenario you depict immediately brought to mind a typical scene at the home of my 5 and 8 year old nephews. I do understand however that you probably meant that your friends are adults (at least in body) and could have done more damage than kids.

Joe
 
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