Jesus, Yeshua, Jesinavarah

[Laura]

Lost Gospel Revealed; Says Jesus Asked Judas to Betray Him

It should be noted that (unless there was some new discovery of which I am unaware), Q remains a hypothetical gospel reconstructed from common elements of two Canonical gospels.

While this subject comes up under the subject heading of Q hypothesis - (synoptics criticism), since the discovery of the Gospel of Thomas, it really isn't a hypothesis anymore. But it looks like that subject heading will stick. But more and more books are indexing Q as Sayings Gospel Q.

See: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/q.html

and:

http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/Laura-Knight-Jadczyk/lost_gospel.htm

By reading Q carefully, it is possible to catch sight of those earlier followers of Jesus. We can see them on the road, at the market, and at one another's homes. We can hear them talking about appropriate behavior; we can sense the spirit of the movement and their attitudes about the world. A sense of purpose can be traced through subtle changes in their attitudes toward other groups over a period of two or three generations of vigorous social experimentation. It is a lively picture. And it is complete enough to reconstruct the history that happened between the time of Jesus and the emergence of the narrative gospels that later gave the Christian church its official account of Christian beginnings.

The remarkable thing about the people of Q is that they were not Christians. They did not think of Jesus as a messiah or the Christ. They did not take his teachings as an indictment of Judaism. They did not regard his death as a divine, tragic, or saving event. And they did not imagine that he had been raised from the dead to rule over a transformed world. Instead, they thought of him as a teacher whose teachings made it possible to live with verve in troubled times. Thus they did not gather to worship in his name, honor him as a god, or cultivate his memory through hymns, prayers, and rituals. They did not form a cult of the Christ... The people of Q were Jesus people, not Christians. [...]

In Q there is no hint of a select group of disciples, no program to reform the religion or politics of Judaism, no dramatic encounter with the authorities in Jerusalem, no martyrdom for the cause, much less a martyrdom with saving significance for the ills of the world, and no mention of a first church in Jerusalem. The people of Q simply did not understand their purpose to be a mission to the Jews, or to gentiles for that matter. They were not out to transform the world or start a new religion.

Q's challenge to the popular conception of Christian origins is therefore clear. If the conventional view of Christian beginnings is right, how are we to account for these first followers of Jesus? Did they fail to get his message? Were they absent when the unexpected happened? Did they carry on in ignorance or in repudiation of the Christian gospel of salvation? If, however, the first followers of Jesus understood the purpose of their movement just as Q describes it, how are we to account for the emergence of the Christ cult, the fantastic mythologies of the narrative gospels, and the eventual establishment of the Christian church and religion? Q forces the issue of rethinking Christian origins as no other document from the earliest times has done. [...]

With Q in view the entire landscape of early Christian history and literature has to be revised. [...]

The narrative gospels can no longer be viewed as the trustworthy accounts of unique and stupendous historical events at the foundation of the Christian faith. The gospels must now be seen as the result of early Christian mythmaking. Q forces the issue, for it documents an earlier history that does not agree with the narrative gospel accounts. [...]

The issues raised are profound and far reaching. [...] They strike to the heart of an entrenched reluctance in our society to discuss the mythic foundations for attitudes and values, both shared and conflictual, that influence the way we think, behave, and construct our institutions. Q can hardly be discussed without engaging in some honest talk about Christian myth and the American dream. [...]

At first no one was in charge of the groups that formed around such teachings. Conversation and mutual support were enough to encourage an individual to act "naturally," as if the normal expectations of acquiescence to social conventions did not apply. As groups formed in support of like-minded individuals, however, loyalty to the Jesus movement strengthened, a social vision for human well-being was generated within the group, and social codes for the movement had to be agreed upon . Why not ask when in need and share what one had when asked, they wondered? Eventually, therefore, the Jesus movement took the form of small groups meeting together as extended families in the heady pursuit of what they called God's kingdom.

To explore human community based on fictive kinship without regard to standard taboos against association based on class, status, gender, or ethnicity would have created quite a stir, and would have been its own reward. Since there was no grand design for actualizing such a vision, different groups settled into practices that varied from one another. Judging from the many forms of community that developed within the Jesus movement, as documented in literature that begins to appear toward the end of the first century, these groups continued to share a basic set of attitudes. They all had a certain critical stance toward the way life was lived in the Greco-Roman world. They all struggled not to be determined by the emptiness of human pursuits in a world of codes they held to be superficial. [...] Despite these agreements, however, every group went its own way and drew different conclusions about what to think and do.The Lost Gospel by Burton L. Mack]

When fully analyzed and compared with other norms of the time, Jesus emerges as a man living the life of the popular philosophy of the Cynic. This is striking because the Cynics are remembered as distinctly unlovable because they promoted biting sarcasm and public behavior that was designed to call attention to the absurdity of standard conventions. Cynics were:

"critics of conventional values and oppressive forms of government. [...] Their gifts and graces ranged from the endurance of a life of renunciation in full public view, through the courage to offer social critique in high places, to the learning and sophistication required for the espousal of Cynic views at the highest level of literary composition. Justly famous as irritants to those who lived by the system and enjoyed the blessings of privilege, prosperity, and power, the Cynics were rightly regarded for their achievement in honing the virtue of self-sufficiency in the midst of uncertain times.

The crisp sayings of Jesus in Q show that his followers thought of him as a Cynic-like sage. [...]

These popular philosophers of a natural way of life did not wander off to suffer in silence. Their props were a setup for a little game of gotcha with the citizens of the town. [...] The Cynic's purpose was to point out the disparities sustained by the social system and refuse to let the system put him in his place. [...] The marketplace was the Cynic's platform, the place to display a living example of freedom from social and cultural constraints, and a place from which to address townspeople about the current state of affairs. [...] The challenge for a Cynic was to see the humor in a situation and quickly turn it to advantage. [...]

In our time there is no single social role with which to compare the ancient Cynics. But we do recognize the social critic and take for granted a number of ways in which social and cultural critique are expressed. These compare nicely with various aspects of the Cynic's profession. For example, we are accustomed to the social critique of political cartoonists, standup comedians, and especially of satire in the genre of the cabaret. All of these use humor to make their point. We are also accustomed to social critique in a more serious and philosophical vein, such as that represented by political commentary. And there is precedent for taking up an alternative lifestyle as social protest, from the utopian movement of the nineteenth century, to the counterculture movement of the 1960s, to the environmentalist protest of the 1980s and 1990s. The list could be greatly expanded, for much modern entertainment also sets its scenes against the backdrop of the unexamined taboos and prejudices prevailing in our time. Each of these approaches to critical assessment of our society (satire, commentary, and alternative lifestyle), bears some resemblance to the profession of the Cynic sage in late antiquity. [...]

Noting the Cynic's wit should not divert our attention from their sense of vocation and purpose. Epictetus wrote that the Cynic could be likened to a spy or scout from another world or kingdom, whose assignment was to observe human behavior and render a judgment upon it. The Cynic could also be likened to a physician sent to diagnose and heal a society's ills. [...] The Stoics sometimes claimed the Cynics as their precursors. [...]

[The Cynics] were much more interested in the question of virtue, or how an individual should live given the failure of social and political systems to support what they called a natural way of life. They borrowed freely from any and every popular ethical philosophy, such as that of the Stoics, to get a certain point across. That point was the cost to one's intelligence and integrity if one blindly followed social convention and accepted its customary rationalizations. [...]

What counted most, they said, was a sense of personal worth and integrity. One should not allow others to determine one's worth on the scale of social position. One already possessed all the resources one needed to live sanely and well by virtue of being a human being. Why not be true to the way in which the world actually impinges upon you [objectively]? Say what you want and what you mean. Respond to a situation as you see it in truth, not as the usual proprieties dictate. Do not let the world squeeze you into its mold. Speak up and act out. The invitation was to take courage and swim against the social currents that threatened to overwhelm and silence a person's sense of verve. [...]

The Jesus people are best understood as those who noticed the challenge of the times in Galilee. They took advantage of the mix of peoples to tweak the authorities of any cultural tradition that presumed to set the standard for others. They found a way to encourage one another in the pursuit of sane and simple living. And they developed a discourse that exuded the Cynic spirit. [...]

Beliefs were not a major concern. Behavior was what mattered and the arena for the action was in public. The public sphere was not subjected to a systematic analysis, however, as if society's ills had been traced to this or that particular cause. The social world was under review, to be sure, for the behavior recommended was intentionally non-conventional, mildly disruptive, and implicitly countercultural. But there is no indication that the purpose of this behavior was to change society at large. The way society worked in general was taken for granted, in the sense of "What more can one expect?" Instead, the imperatives were addressed to individuals as if they could live by other rules if they chose to do so. [...] It is important to see that the purpose of the change was not a social reform. The Jesus people were not organizing to fight Roman power or to reform Jewish religion.

Apparently many responded to the movement and associations of like-minded people began to form. And then, something very interesting happened... Suddenly, in the next layer of Q, a heightened sense of belonging to a movement becomes obvious because injunctions given as aphorisms now become rules supported by arguments. At this point, the idea of the "Kingdom of God" enters the picture. This "Kingdom" was, apparently, a realm or domain in which the rule of God is actualized. The rule of God is what the Q people said they were representing in the world. For the Jesus people, this meant something quite different from what Christians now assume it to mean. First of all, there was nothing at all apocalyptic about it (all that came later). For the Jesus people, the Kingdom of God was compared repeatedly to the natural process of growth as witnessed in Nature. Everything about this "Kingdom of God" was practical, having to do with things that can be accomplished in contrast to the conventional life.

God's kingdom can be announced, desired, affirmed, claimed, and signaled in a given human exchange. Thus the link between the notion of the rule of God and the pattern of Q's countercultural practices is very, very strong. [...]

If the present forms of rule were far from the ideal, and the people knew it, something other than philosophical speculation was called for. The ideal kingdom had to be imagined as an alternative order with some relation to the present status quo. [...]

The language of rule or kingship came to be used as a metaphor for personal self-control. The term king no longer had to refer to an actual ruler, and kingdom no longer had to refer to a political domain. "King" became a metaphor of a human being at its "highest" imaginable level, whether by endowment, achievement, ethical excellence, or mythical ideal. "Kingdom" became a metaphor for the "sovereignty" manifest in the "independent bearing," "freedom," "confidence," and self-control of the superior person, the person of ethical integrity who thus could "rule" his "world" imperiously.

Stoics internalized the image of the king and idealized the individual who ruled his passions and controlled his attitudes even in circumstances where others governed his existence. Their strategy was to be hopeful about the constructive influence of such individuals on society. A popular Stoic maxim was "the only true king is the wise man." Cynics were not as sanguine about the philosopher's chance of influencing social reform, but they also used the royal metaphor to advantage. In their case, taking control of one's life required extrication from the social scene. [...]

The use of the term kingdom of God in Q matches its use in the traditions of popular philosophy, especially in the Cynic tradition of performing social diagnostics in public by means of countercultural behavior. The aphoristic imperatives recommended a stance toward life in the world that could become the basis for an alternative community ethos and ethic among those willing to consider an alternative social vision. [...] The language of the rule of God in Q refers not only to the challenge of risky living without expectation that the social world will change but also to the exemplification of a way of life that like-minded persons might want to share. The God in question is not identified in terms of any ethnic or cultural tradition.

The match between the Cynics and the Jesus people is not exact in all cases because the Jesus people DID have an interest in the "Divine" aspect of "God." Unfortunately, there is little in the Q document that explains this Divine source other than the fact that the Jesus people represented it as a "Father" and those who could successfully resist the ruin of social evils were the "children of God." The way the Jesus people referred to God was a bit more serious than the way the Cynics referred to such ideas. The Q people were concerned with the care of their members as a "family." I would suggest that there was a perception of differences in human beings among the Q people, though Mack does not make a special point of analyzing that issue.

Mack continues to examine and identify the stages in the Jesus movement, including the point at which the movement experienced rejection, criticism, and censure. A sudden shift in tone is noted in the third layer of Q. This is one of the more interesting parts of the book which describes an extremely troubled phase of the movement. There is a concern with loyalty noted, which suggests that there had been pressure from some outside authority, and betrayal from within. At this point, the role of Jesus was expanded, and this seems to have been related to mutual recognition of other "Jesus people." The movement must have been growing quite fast and threatening the authorities, and some action must have been taken which resulted in the need to find criteria for who was or was not a real follower of the teachings. So it was that concern for loyalty to the teachings resulted in the need to recast Jesus as the authoritative founder of the movement whose teachings must be "kept". That is to say, the shift in focus was from the teachings to the teacher. The next step was, of course, loyalty to Jesus himself.

The question is, of course, what happened? The document doesn't tell us, though it hints at the nature of the problem by virtue of the additional text that dealt with the issues. There were, obviously, painful experiences that were turned to a lesson. Mack suggests that the formation of Jesus people "families" must have seriously offended certain authorities. He writes:

This concern for loyalty to the movement is matched by signs of social distress. Tensions within the movement are indicated by the saying on scandals and the instruction to forgive a brother if he has a change of heart. But changes of heart have apparently not been the rule. Families have been torn asunder and the divisions have been rationalized as fully in keeping with the importance and purpose of the movement. Painful? Yes, but to be expected.

It seems that families were being split, and ethnic conventions were being personally challenged over loyalty to the movement. The evidence indicates that this occurred in relation to Judaism.

The story of the Beelzebub accusation is about rejection, conflict, and labeling Jesus and his followers as agents of a foreign (Syrian) god. Jesus' retort about "your sons" turns the challenge back upon his questioners and directs the issue of conflict to the social world that Jesus shares with them. There are instructions about what to do in case one is called before the village authorities. [...]

The people of Q2 had not organized their movement to become a society with membership requirements and officers, much less with rites of entrance. But the rule of God that they represented was certainly in the process of being reconceived as a discrete domain or kingdom, and there was now a great deal of talk about "entering into" the kingdom or being excluded from it. [...] Loyalty to the Jesus movement had run up against the challenge of Jewish propriety and the question of belonging to the people of God as the children of Abraham, or Israel. And the Jesus people had taken this challenge seriously. The evidence for this includes the repeated appeals to biblical traditions, the preaching of John about the children of Abraham, the import of the Beelzebub accusation, and the list of counter charges leveled against Pharisees and lawyers. [The Lost Gospel by Burton L. Mack]

Here we find the most fascinating twist of all in the development of Christianity. If the Jesus people had not been attacked by the Jewish authorities, they would not have sought to justify their movement in terms of the Jewish religion. It was only in defense that they did this. They ran afoul of the Pharisaic code, probably because they had Jewish members whose families were horrified at the participation of their children or relatives in the new movement. The issue of loyalty came to be phrased as a "Jewish" question, and the Jesus people felt they had to answer it in Jewish terms.

One can easily understand how this situation might have developed if loyalties to the Jesus movement began to wear and tear at the fabric of families and villages in which Jewish sensibilities were strong. One can imagine a family worried about the involvement of some of its members in the Jesus movement. Attempts at dissuasion could have and must have taken many forms. But insisting upon traditional family loyalties, throwing up Pharisaic standards, and making arguments for preserving Jesus' identity were apparently the ploys that struck home. They were in any case the ones that got a response from the Q people. And they triggered a spate of counter-charges that determined the emerging self-identification of the Jesus movement. [...]

The charges against the Pharisees and lawyers are especially interesting in this regard. The issues under debate were just what one might expect - washings, giving to charity, tithes, justice, honor, and knowledge. The list combines items typical for the Pharisaic code of ritual purity with items for which scribal representatives of the temple system of courts and taxation would be known. Such standards had apparently been held up as exemplary by families and village leaders seeking to chide their Jesus people into postures of propriety. Apparently the people of Q were not impressed. [...]

True to their Cynic heritage, the Jesus people were still capable of engaging in a bit of caustic riposte. The Pharisees were like tombs (so much for their desire to be honored), and the lawyers treated people like beasts of burden (so much for their claims to know the law and administer justice). [...]

Lo and behold, the people of Q linked the Pharisees and lawyers to the history of what their fathers did to the prophets. ...

That is some ante. ...

It is clear that the offense had registered and that the defense would be to beat the Jewish exemplars at their own game. [The Lost Gospel by Burton L. Mack]

And so it was that the Jesus people turned to the labor of mythmaking. They had to find ways to best their critics by turning their own words against them. They began to search for self-justifying arguments, examples in support of their own movement. They were only doing it in the sense of the Cynic system of argumentation, but the results were nonlinear. What they presented as their arguments was then adopted as REAL, and the Jesus people made an implicit claim on the cultural heritage of the Jews.

It is clear that the individuals who did this were not well versed in the Jewish writings. They made no appeals to such obvious things as the promises to the patriarchs, the priestly covenants, the Mosaic law, the Davidic covenant, and so on. Most of the allusions to Judaism were taken from popular oral traditions that would have been available to non-Jews of the time.

It is almost as if, when challenged by a Jewish orthodoxy, the Galileans appealed to what they knew of the popular epic traditions of Israel generally shared by Jews, Samaritans, and Galileans. [...] The people of Q worked these stories to their own advantage on the one hand, and to the detriment of their detractors' claims to represent the true form of Israel on the other. [...]

The Jesus people were encouraged to think of themselves as "fortunate" because they were treated just as the prophets had been treated [by the Jews in ancient times.] The logic was that the epic tradition supported the Jesus people because they, like the prophets, registered appropriate criticism of the status quo. The motif of the killing of the prophets could also be cited to embarrass their detractors because they, just as the fathers always had done to the prophets, were wrongfully "persecuting" and "killing" the Jesus people. [...] The way the Jesus people of Q used the motif was not a particularly clever manipulation of the Hebrew scriptures of the logical thrust of the biblical epic. They simply took what there was in the Jewish reservoir of stock images and turned it against their detractors. [...]

Their achievement was a popping of pompous balloons and a freaky delight in seeing themselves reflected in the story at its most embarrassing turns. Think of Jonah. Were the Ninevites Jews? No. Did they not repent at Jonah's preaching? Yes. Now think of Jesus and the Jesus movement in the very same light, only brighter.

Remember the Queen of the South (Sheba)? Was she a Jew? No. Did Solomon withhold his wisdom from her? No. See? Something greater even than Solomon is here.

And the story of Noah? Be careful whose side you are on. Everyone else perished you know. It is going to be the same story... And the same goes for Lot and the city of Sodom. He was called out; they were destroyed.

So there is your epic, they seemed to be saying, if you want to know what we are about, read it. [...]

Their movement certainly was not generated by an apocalyptic hysteria or persuasion of imminent judgment any more than it was by a drive to reform or restore some ethnic identity based on the promise inherent in the biblical epic of Israel. In both cases, the appeal to examples from the epic and the threat of an apocalyptic judgment, the Q people invaded the territory of their Jewish detractors and used their own idioms against them.

And yet, once involved in such an imaginative exercise, polemical as it surely was at first, a curious fascination with the broadened horizon seems to have developed. To think of the Jesus movement taking its place in the grand scheme of things, from the very "foundation of the world" to the "day when the son of man appears" was not a bad idea. No one could have started, either with the thrust of the Hebrew epic, or with the pull of an apocalyptic hope, and come up with a plan for just such a movement as the Jesus movement. But once it was there as a movement in the process of social formation, worthy of the loyalties of those within and threatened by the cuffs of those without, finding a place in the sun was exactly what the movement needed. And what a place to take, aligned with the "little ones" whose pedigree reached back to the beginning and who already knew in advance how the final judgment would go. [The Lost Gospel by Burton L. Mack]

Mack next takes the reader through the process of exactly how the subsequent myth was built, layer by layer, and it is fascinating. Effectively, what happened was that a group of people created a myth of broad - even global - horizons by elaborating on the sayings of an unlikely sage of Cynic persuasion who was reconceived as a wisdom teacher, an apocalyptic prophet, the son of God, and the means of atonement for all the world's sins if people will just "believe." By degrees, Jesus was saying things that only the wisdom of God could reveal. An amazing accommodation with Jewish piety against which earlier battles had raged was made, and Jesus was now quoting scriptures as proof texts that he was the son of God whose kingdom would only be revealed at the end of time.

The most ironic thing about the development of Christianity as a global religion is that it has aligned itself with Judaism as a "daughter" when, the facts indicate that the adoption of a "Jewish" heritage was merely the result of a defensive maneuver. The Jesus people simply usurped the epic of their main detractors and used it against them. "Get off our backs. Your own history should tell you that what we represent is a critical voice in unhealthy times and has always been needed. See, we are OK even on your own terms." It was never intended to be a serious alignment.

The conclusions to be drawn from the story of Q are therefore obvious. The followers of Jesus were normal human beings, responding to their times in understandable ways, investing intellectual energy in their evolving social experiments, and developing mythologies just as any society-in-the-making does. As for methods and means toward the creation of a mythic universe, the Jesus people also performed according to normal patterns. They assessed their social and cultural context with critical care, laid claim to the cultural traditions most relevant and ready at hand, sorted out the combinations most appropriate to their movement, and borrowed creatively from the mythologies current at the time. [...]

Q's story puts the Jesus movements in the center of the picture as the dominant form of early group formations in the wake of Jesus, and it forces the modern historian to have another look at the congregations of the Christ. The congregations of the Christ will now have to be accounted for as a particular development within the Jesus movements, not as the earliest form of Christian persuasion and standard against which the Jesus movements have appeared as diluted accommodations to banal mentalities.[...]

Q documents a Jesus movement that was not Christian. The Jesus movement that produced Q cannot be shunted aside as a group of people who missed the dramatic events portrayed in the narrative gospels. They cannot be dismissed as those who mistook Jesus, failed to understand his message, or misunderstood their mission to found the church. The reason they cannot be dismissed is because they were there at the beginning. Q reveals what Jesus people thought about Jesus before there was a Christian congregation of the type reflected in the letters of Paul, and before the idea of a narrative gospel was even dared. [...]

Q is the best record we have for the first forty years of the Jesus movements. There are other snippets of early tradition about Jesus, but they all generally agree with the evidence from Q. [...]

Q's challenge is absolute and critical. It drives a wedge between the story as told in the narrative gospels and the history they are thought to record. The narrative gospels can no longer be read as the records of historical events that generated Christianity.

Q puts us in touch with the earlier history of the Jesus movements, and their recollections of Jesus are altogether different. The first followers of Jesus did not know about or imagine any of the dramatic events upon which the narrative gospels hinge. [...] All of these events must and can be accounted for as mythmaking in the Jesus movements, with a little help from the martyrology of the Christ, in the period after the Roman-Jewish war. The narrative gospels have no claim as historical accounts. The gospels are imaginative creations whose textual resources and social occasions can be identified. The reasons for their composition can be explained. They are documents of intellectual labor normal for people in the process of experimental group formation. [...]

The average Christian is horrified to think that Matthew was either lying, or was mistaken, or he made it all up and didn't bother to inform the reader that he was making stuff up. Mack deals with this issue in some detail and even if the explanation will produce discomfort in many Christians, the explanation is "eminently understandable." The fact is, the authors of early Christian texts, following a tradition of Greco-Roman attitudes and practices with regard to sayings or maxims of a teacher, felt perfectly free to attribute new sayings, and even deeds, to Jesus. At various points in the history of these early groups, when certain tensions arose, it was seen as necessary and useful to recast the character of Jesus by speech attribution and narrative changes. This is exactly what was done, and the evidence is in the textual analyses. It was in this sense that the history of the Q community was traced.

At the first stage, the discourse was playful and the behavior public. The people of Q were challenging one another to live a life of integrity despite the social repercussions.

The second stage was that of forming groups. Apparently, these experiments in behavior produced satisfying results and more and more people were attracted to the idea. Human relationships became a particular focus, and there was no evidence of any idea of reforming society or any demand for conversion of outsiders.

And then, the third shift: apparently, when groups were formed, this attracted very negative attention. The distress signal in the text is evident, and it is also evident that it was not a consequence of weariness with reproach or discouragement, but rather that there was a definite and dangerous social conflict relating to certain members of the Q groups.

And then, another stage occurred, a period during which the people of Q began to see themselves as carriers of a social movement with a purpose in the grander scheme of things.

It was in this context that the ideas of the Christ cult of northern Syria overshadowed and even erased the memories and importance of Jesus, the Cynic teacher. As Mack points out, the cost of surviving the Roman-Jewish war must have been very high. This part of the discussion is particularly interesting, and one can speculate on the possibility of an esoteric tradition being combined with the social experiment and coverted into a history. The "real" Jesus disappeared from the story because the narrative gospels told a more exciting tale that promised wonderful things in terrible times, and Jesus became the "lynchpin" of all history.

Mack's conclusions regarding the importance of this event on our world are quite startling considering what has transpired on the world stage since he wrote this book.

The question now is whether the discovery of Q has any chance of making a difference in the way in which Christianity and its gospel are viewed in modern times? The question is quite serious, because neither the university, nor among knowledgeable people in our society, nor among the Christian churches, have the results of biblical scholarship ever made much of a difference. [...]

The discovery of Q effectively challenges the privilege granted the narrative gospels as depictions of the historical Jesus. The difference between the narrative gospels and modern retellings of the story can no longer lie in the distinction between history and fiction. The narrative gospels are also products of mythic imagination.

The difference lies in the status of the gospels as foundation stories for a religion in distinction from interpretations of that story in genres of a surrounding, secular culture. So the modern critic who seeks to understand a public outcry over Jesus is now confronted not only with the question of modern myth and ancient history, but also with the more interesting question of the reasons why the gospels are so hard for moderns to recognize as myth. [...]

Myths, mentalities, and cultures go together. Myths are celebrated publicly in story and song. Mentalities are nurtured just beneath the surface of social conventions by means of unexpressed agreements. Myths, mentalities, and cultural agreements function at a level of acceptance that might be called sanctioned and therefore restricted from critical thought. Myths are difficult to criticize because mentalities turn them into truths held to be self-evident, and the analysis of such cultural assumptions is seldom heard as good news.

Christian myth and Western culture go together. [...]

To acknowledge publicly that [the American Dream] may owe something to the legacy of western Christian culture is, on the other hand, taboo.

The exception to this general rule occurs, interestingly enough, when pressure on public policy and patriotism results in exaggerated expressions of those values for which our nation stands. We have a history of such platitudes: new world, new land, new people, righteous nation, manifest destiny, city set on a hill, liberty enlightening the world, a beacon for the homeless, one nation under God, moral majority, defenders of the free world, and new world order.

These truisms signal a messianic mentality.

When times are not perceived to be critical, it is easy to discount these expressions as the harmless formulations of a well-meaning people. Then we are willing to recognize the influence of Christian symbols on our self-understanding. But in periods of critical decision, when the rhetoric is used by our leaders in support of some national interest, few find it easy to blow the whistle and ask for debate on the reasonableness of attitudes rooted in religious convictions. Why? Is it because we do not dare, or because we do not know how to criticize our myths? [...]

We do not know how to talk about the mentalities that underlie a culture's system of meanings, values, and attitudes. Some cultural critics are saying that it is time we set to work at cracking that equation.

I also think that the time is right. Americans have lost their sense of our nation's innocence, though the rhetoric of the righteous nation continues to be heard from our leaders.

The recent history of what we have done with our technology and power throughout the world is troubling, as are the human cries for help from around a world grown small and yet too large to handle. The list of concerns has run off the page, and we seem to be overloaded with unsolvable problems and strife, and ecological responsibility. For thoughtful people, the issues have to do with assessing the chances for constructing sane and safe societies in a multicultural world while understanding the conditions for predation and prejudice, power abuse, and violence. In either case, it is irresponsible not to engage in public discussion of our own system of cultural values. [...]

In order to understand ourselves and register reasons for our social options, cultural analysis will have to include a comparative evaluation of mytholgies. And that means having a close look at our own mythology.

Q should help with this analysis by breaking the taboo that now grants privilege to the Christian myth. That is because the story of Q gives us an account of Christian origins that is not dependent upon the narrative gospels. ... Christian mythology can now be placed among the many mythologies and ideologies of the religions and cultures of the world. The Christian myth can be studied as any other myth is studied. It can be evaluated for its proposal of ways to solve social problems, construct sane societies, and symbolize human values. [...]

So the times are troubled for thinking Christians who wonder about the social and political consequences of Christian mythology in its secular dress.

The effect of Christian mythology has not always been humanizing. The Captain America Complex, a book by Robert Jewett has traced our zealous nationalism to its biblical roots.

Others have reflected deeply on the Christian persuasions that have undergirded colonial imperialism, the taking of the West, the Indian wars, and the slave trade.

Still others have studied the relationship of the gospel story to the profile of the American hero, the American dream, and the destructive politics of righeousness wherever we have intervened in the affairs of peoples around the world.

The conclusion seems to be that the Christian gospel, focusing as it does on crucifixion as the guarantee for apocalyptic salvation, has somehow given its blessing to patterns of personal and political behavior that often have had disastrous consequences. [...]

Q's challenge to Christians is therefore an invitation to join the human race, to see ourselves with our myths on our hands and mythmaking as our task. [The Lost Gospel by Burton L. Mack]

After reading Mack's book, Tony Bushby's The Bible Fraud is even sillier than I originally thought. It will have to join a host of others - including Holy Blood, Holy Grail, the Da Vinci Code, The Templar Revelation, The Jesus Conspiracy, Jesus the Magician, and just about everything that assumes a priori that there is ANYTHING even remotely historical in the narrative gospels - on the trash heap.

Yes, it's all a fraud, no doubt about that, but not exactly the way so many are claiming nowadays when they create their equally ridiculous "New Age" or "alternative" mythologies to replace the Dead Man on a Stick nonsense.

I say good riddance to all of it.

 

[Fearnot]

Gospel of Judas Pages Endured Long, Strange Journey

Having stumbled across this, Laura’s long-unanswered thread, I felt, shall I say "compelled," to pursue it at this time. A translation of the Gospel of Judas is now available, and may be found at
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/_pdf/GospelofJudas.pdf?fs=www9.nationalgeographic.com

Without broaching the question of authenticity of this "Gospel," note a couple of National Geographic’s misleading representations of some controversial aspects of this codex:

In this gospel, the Apostle Judas Iscariot is not a traitor but a hero, the chosen disciple. Jesus Christ asks Judas to betray him to the authorities.

I read this tortured translation allegedly-of-Judas several times, finding no indication that it vindicates Judas as not being a traitor or more precisely, as not being a betrayer, nor does it portray him as a hero. Furthermore, in the actual canonical Gospels, Jesus doesn’t "ask" Judas to betray Him, but endorses and encourages him to do so! Is National Geographic’s Mr. Handwerk just plain ignorant, or does he in fact deliberately obviate the canonical doctrine for deceitful reasons? Here is what the canonical Gospel of John states:

When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me... He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. -- John 13:21 and 13:26-27

Another example of Mr. Handwerk’s arrogant stupidity, or worse - deliberate betrayal of the integrity expected of a journalist, is demonstrated in his words:

St. Irenaeus's method was to savage alternative theological views and interpretations including the Gospel of Judas which he referred to as "fictitious histories."

Read the Gospel of Judas and reread Mr. Handwerk’s article. Perhaps you will join me in stating, "Really now, Mr. Handwerk, even my dog is smart enough to recognize your Judas chutzpa in promoting this piece of garbage."

- Mike

__________________
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. -- Revelation 22:11 (the last, and most ignored commandment in the Bible).

 

[dant]

Gospel of Judas Pages Endured Long, Strange Journey

To Fearnot:

"A closed mind does not allow the possibility of truth to enter it. It is like a door, tightly locked shut."

So which document(s) are 100% truth? The present day bible or documents retrieved from antiquity?

From your statement, it appears you have chosen the present day bible as 100% truth and there is no room for dialogue. Seems to me that you are perhaps guided by your own belief system and have choosen to remain subjective? Well, it IS a free-will universe and you have clearly chosen your path?

 

[Fearnot]

Gospel of Judas Pages Endured Long, Strange Journey

A closed mind does not allow the possibility of truth to enter it. It is like a door, tightly locked shut.

I reread my original commentary and the tone I present therein sure does appear as a closed and locked door. Thank you for pointing this out; yes, I do have my own belief system as you have well pointed out. Nonetheless, this belief system houses a methodology for assessing truth – I believe you have a personalized and well thought-out assessing truth-process of your own, and somewhere between the differences lies the possibility of open discussion.

So which document(s) are 100% truth? The present day bible or documents retrieved from antiquity?

My original error in my-presentation appears imprinted in your queries here. Your un-capitalized spelling of Bible seems either to signify deliberate contempt towards me (specifically my tone of presentation) or a general contempt for that book. For the sake of direction, I’ll assume both and follow a path that is more subjected to those who disregard the Bible as possessing authority.

Fact is, there are two recently discovered codices exonerating Judas Iscariot; the Gospel of Judas, and the Talmud of Jmmanuel discovered in 1963. Both open a can of worms, however, for the sake of my original argument, that is, that the Gospel of Judas is ancient disinformation (garbage), it is noteworthy that there is no agreement between the codices although both exonerate Judas.

One of the TJ's minor heresies is that the person who betrayed Jmmanuel [Jesus] to the arresting party and a little later committed suicide was Juda Ihariot, a young Pharisee who had been acquainted with Jmmanuel and the disciples, and not Judas Iscariot. Judas was Jmmanuel's designated writer as well as the treasurer for the twelve. (From http://www.tjresearch.info/ ).

This contradicts the Gospel of Judas which claims that Judas Iscariot betrayed Jesus as he had been told by Jesus to do.

Excluding the Bible for commonality in thought, we must agree that one or the other of these two non-canonical codices is a fraud. Because the Talmud of Jmmanuel is most likely new to the reader, judgment as to its authenticity is dependent upon independent assessment. As a historical note; the Gospel of Judas was written in Greek with a Gnostic slant. Webster’s 1828 dictionary defines Gnostic: "The Gnostics were a sect of philosophers that arose in the first century who pretended they were the only men who had a true knowledge of the Christian religion... They held that all natures, intelligible, intellectual and material, are derived by successive emulations from the infinite fountain of deity. These emanations they called aeons."

The aeon-theme is central to the Gospel of Judas, identifying it with the school of the Gnostics:

A great angel, the enlightened divine Self-Generated, emerged from the cloud. Because of him, four other angels came into being from another cloud, and they became attendants for the angelic Self-Generated. The Self-Generated said, ‘Let […] come into being […],’ and it came into being […]. And he [created] the first luminary to reign over him. He said, ‘Let angels come into being to serve [him],’ and myriads without number came into being. He said, ‘[Let] an enlightened aeon come into being,’ and he came into being. He created the second luminary [to] reign over him, together with myriads of angels without number, to offer service. That is how he created the rest of the enlightened aeons. He made them reign over them, and he created for them myriads of angels without number, to assist them.

The Talmud of Jmmanuel was written in Aramaic, believed to be the language spoken by Jesus:

The translation of the Aramaic leaves of the first roll reads as if it is the original writing of the ministry and teachings of Jesus. However, it indicated that his original name was not Jesus, but had been Immanuel. His desire to have it be spelled starting with a "J" symbol is explained in Meier's Foreword to the TJ. The New Testament gospel most closely resembling the TJ is the Gospel of Matthew. It resembles the TJ closely in both wording, where the verses have close parallels, and in order, although each contains much text not contained by the other. Since 1986 I have been analyzing this Talmud and finding several hundred reasons consistent with its verses having been genuine and Matthew's verses having been derived from them.

As the overwhelming leaning of the Signs of the Times-themes appear to be of a Judaic/New Age-slant, and directly or indirectly shuns the Christian Bible, I have little doubt which codex will be dumped with thorough investigation – but I claim no victory because I consider both codices garbage (sorry, but that’s just me). Nevertheless, I do believe the timely discoveries of the two codices to be providential. My explanation for this may interest the reader.

The question that I've never heard asked is, "Why did Judas betray Jesus?"

Bear in mind that the Jewish people had been made subservient to a succession of oppressive world kingdoms at the time, namely Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome, extending throughout a period of over a half of a Millennium. Therefore the Pharisees were looking for a Messiah that would destroy their oppressors but instead Jesus came as the Prince of Peace. To me it seems evident that Judas knew that Jesus was the Messiah and believed that if he betrayed him Jesus would be forced to become the conquering Messiah envisioned by the Pharisees.

Expanding upon this preface, today, while the world faces potential war against "oppression," pseudo-Christians embrace a Gnostic vision inconsistent with their Bible, while those with a Judaic leaning lean towards a similar vision against oppression. The Prince of Peace is again betrayed under the assumption that Armageddon will force the Messiah to do away with oppression, and low and behold, a sign appears as the Talmud of Jmmanuel and the Gospel of Judas.

Judas hanged himself in the end – and humanity as a whole now faces suicide.

To me these codices appear as an "in your face" sign of the times.

I apologize for circumventing your questions; you have a complex belief system as do I; let’s avoid convolution. I’ll quit here.

-Mike

__________________
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. -- Revelation 22:11 (the last, and most ignored commandment in the Bible).

 

[dant]

Gospel of Judas Pages Endured Long, Strange Journey

I note you knew not of my intention of why I did not capitalize the "B" in bible, and yet you still do not know; but you have taken note of it and it compelled you to respond to make note of it. Perhaps therein lies your "sacred cows"? Since you offered to "open the door", I offer you my understanding of the matter.

To keep it simple as possible, Laura has posted, without comment, the subject of the Gospel Of Judas, as reported by the author: Brian Handwerk, representing National Geographic. Yes, she says in the title, "... long Strange Journey", and on the face of it, does appear very strange indeed. OSIT

The author Brian Handwerk, has made many statements, and all without providing any references or factual data in order to support these claims. Because it is written as a "report", and it is presented AS IS, it leaves the reader to their own interpretations. This to me is a red flag, and it immediately tells me not to take anything at face value, but to defer it for further research or to drop it completely.

Mr. Handwerk is attempting to show how the documents were obtained and proceeded to give his account of the history behind it. As for the veracity of the history and even of the contents of the document(s) itself, nothing was really being discussed to support or refute it. It remains, I think, an open discussion. Yes, I am sure there are going to be discussions abound about these document(s) from the layman to the theologian and to whomever cares to have a hand in it, but... the bable will continue for a long time, OSIT If my memory serves me correctly, I *think* similar documents were "discovered" and the C's had something to say about it. I don't recall the specifics.

But the way I see it, these document(s) may serve to keep people distracted and away from the real truth, to keep these belief systems running, to cause individuals to remain distracted, to keep them confused and busy, to get them to spin their wheels, ad infinitum so that they may never learn anything new at all. For some, I think, they may act on their emotional hangups (sacred cows) and might fly apart. It reminds me of the statement: "The trap is set, the bait is placed, all that awaits is a willing and ignorant victim."

The C's have said that 70% of the New Testament alone is false (30% is truth, sandwiched between 70% of lies)- and what is left is those little itty bitty of pieces that survived somehow and might give a hint of what Jesus might have left us, and we find these in certain places such as parables, perhaps. Just so you know, I have read, and re-read the bible, cover to cover, and I remember most, but not all of it. I do see truths in the book, but also in other books, and the more I read, the more I know. What I do not care about are relegious orders, dogmas, man-made laws, belief systems and so on, so I am trying very hard to purge these from my system and to find knowledge and to KNOW rather than what I BELIEVE.

In case you have not, please read the many discussions and essays written of the subject of Jesus, the (B)ible, and other related references not only here in this forum but also in the QFG site map: http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/site_map_qfg.htm

PS: Yes, I am avoiding the subject you wish to delve into but I am trying to stick to the subject presented by the author and do not wish to go into the subject of the veracity of the history of the documents nor the contents of "Gospel of Judas" and I hope I explained why. I was a little vague with the specifics to the above link in question, but if you follow the link given above, look into the section: "Esoteric History". I also offer you read "The Wave" and "Adventures of Cassiopaea". The rest is up to you.

 

[Bo]

The Christ of Benedict XVI

so i was surfing the web and i came accros some interesting information, didn't saw any post about this matter so i post it here.


The Pope is about to publish a book about Jesus. In so doing, he will share his deepest convictions about Jesus Christ



the link http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=7785

Why is the Pope writing an extremely important book, but choosing quite consciously to not formulate his teaching magisterially?

 

[thorbiorn]

The life of Jesus in the Cassiopaean transcripts

The life of Jesus in the Cassiopaean transcripts

Introduction
When beginning to read the first book in the trilogy of Mouravieff, I wondered if it would not be helpful to brush up my knowledge of Christianity. So I read the The Lost Gospel: The Book of Q and Christian Origins by Burton L. Mack, see review by Laura Knight-Jadczyk. (Edit 20080409: on _http://www.cygnus-study.com/ under ''Extra Biblical'' there is ''Q: The Lost Sayings Source'') Although it was very helpful indeed, I began to wonder what in fact the transcripts would have to say about the life of Jesus. Would it be possible to find the life of Jesus as depicted in the Cassiopaean transcripts? I soon discovered that there are quite a lot of references and that Laura and friends took VERY great care to get the information about Jesus as straight as possible. That is why many questions around the same subject were raised on various occasions. One also comes across the following:

Q: […] (L) I was reading some blurbs about Jesus on a mailing list. There are a lot of different ideas flying around. I realize that, in an earlier session, we asked about Jesus and you gave us a particular set of answers. I also know that you gave us a 'noise to signal' ratio about the accuracy of the information and how this relates to free will, and the problems of interference from various persons who are present have all been addressed. So, all things being considered, when we originally asked the questions about Jesus, I had the feeling that there was a lot of emotion weighing on those answers. Is that correct?
A: Maybe.
Q: Were the answers and information given about Jesus accurate?
A: Mostly.

Q: Was there anything about what was previously said about Jesus that was glaringly inaccurate?
A: Not glaringly, just naturally.

In the following presentation I have decided to include passages even when on the same topic, and almost identical.

The method used was to collect transcript segments about similar topics, and then put them in a sequence with headings between. There are many ways to connect the segments and each possibility may influence how one understands the context.
Although the post is long there is no content list. The main topics are in bold and to find them one can scroll down the page. After the main story there is a post with notes that did not fit into the main story but still may have interest.

About The New Testament as a source of information

Q: (L) What is the origin of the name Appolyon?
A: Light being?
Q: (L) Why is Appolyon called the "destroyer" in Revelation?
A: Backward for sake of deception. Bible corrupted.
Q: (L) You have often stated that the Bible is corrupted, I would like to know who, exactly, corrupted the Bible and when and how they did this?
A: Illuminati brotherhood for a thousand earth years.
Q: (L) Does this mean that up until a thousand years ago the Bible was fairly accurate?
A: No.
Q: (L) Is there any possibility that the Catholic church had anything to do with this corrupting influence?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Does the Catholic church have in its possession actual original texts of the Bible that have not been corrupted?
A: No.
Q: (L) Were there ever such texts in existence?
A: No.
Q: (L) Who wrote the book of Matthew?
A: Greek enforcers.
Q: (L) What are Greek enforcers?
A: Like your FBI.
Q: (L) Who wrote the book of Mark?
A: Same.
Q: (L) Luke and John?
A: Same?
Q: (L) Acts?
A: Same?
Q: (L) Are any books of the New Testament written by who they claim to be written by?
A: No. Remember this is 70% propaganda.
Q: (L) Is 30% then the truth or the actual teachings?
A: Close. Enough you must decipher from instinct through meditation.

Q: (L) […]I was asking about this story of the purported travels of Mary Magdalene, and you said that the people were not important, that the message was.[…]

Q: You once mentioned 'Greek Enforcers' who wrote the New Testament. Where did these Greek Enforcers come from?
A: Order of Thelon.
Q: Never heard of it. On another occasion you called the Nephilim 'enforcers.' Is there any relation between this order of Thelon and the Nephilim?
A: Maybe...
Q: Where is the headquarters of this group?
A: Sicinthos.
Q: Is that a place? Never heard of it.
A: Yes.

A: And who was Saint Augustine/San Augustin... Augustus, Augustine Monks, etc?
Q: Oh! Well, I never thought about that! I was going after St. Anthony and the Magdalene... St. Augustine was one of the early church 'fathers' who wrote a lot of things that became established church doctrine in general.
A: Or established early church "whitewash." […]

Contributing factors to the loss of accuracy

Q: (L) The chief thing I noticed about this period of the Dark Ages is that from the time of the 'birth of Christ,' for about 1300 years, there is an incredible lack of documentation. Now, there were some manuscripts written by Monks, such as Gregory of Tours and so forth, but in general, the only things that have survived from this period are things put out by Monks under the control of the church. It is as though the whole world became illiterate. Is this, in fact, the case? Was it that nobody was writing anything down during this period?
A: Close.
Q: (L) Was any part of this because of the control of the Catholic Church over writing and education, and that they opposed everything that did not support their views?
A: Close.

Q: Here it says: The Spanish Conquistadores and missionaries destroyed nearly everything that we could possibly use to learn about the South American civilizations. A sixteenth century eye-witness says that there was an emerald idol that was completely fantastic. Father Benito took this idol and had it ground up, stirred the powder in water, poured it on the ground and stomped on it. Cortez was given two circular calendars, one of gold and the other silver, as big as wagon wheels, with all kinds of hieroglyphs on them, which he immediately had melted down and cast into ingots. 'All over Central America, vast repositories of knowledge, accumulated since ancient times, were painstakingly gathered, heaped up, and burned by the zealous Catholic missionaries. In July, 1562, for example, in the main square of Monte, in the Yucatan, Father Diego de Landa burned thousands of Maya manuscripts, paintings and hieroglyphs inscribed on rolled up deerskins. He said: 'We found great numbers of books written in the characters of the Indians, but since they contained nothing but superstitions of the Devil, we burned them all, which the natives took most grievously, and gave them great pain.' Hancock says: 'Not only the natives should have felt this pain, but anyone and everyone then and now who would like to know the truth about the past. Diego de Landa participated in Spain's Satanic mission to wipe clear the memory banks of Central America. In the marketplace at Texcoco, they built a vast bonfire of astronomical documents, paintings, manuscripts, hieroglyphic texts, which the Conquistadores had forcibly extracted from the Aztecs during the previous eleven years. As this irreplaceable storehouse of knowledge and history went up in flames, a chance to shake off some of the collective amnesia that clouds our understanding was lost to mankind forever.' So, having read this sickening description about 'Spain's Satanic Mission' to destroy the past, I would like to have a comment on what was motivating the Catholic Church, the Catholic Missionaries, and Spain itself, since Spain has been designated as one of the areas where 'artifacts' may be still found. Could you comment?
A: You should not need commentary, as we have told you much about the desires of 4th density STS to obscure truth by manipulating 3rd density STS.
Q: Well, yes. But, Lord have Mercy. It just makes a person sick to think about it... all of this and the Library at Alexandria too! Was this the kind of stuff that was being done in Europe during the so-called 'Dark Ages?'
A: Yes.

Another factor that assisted in loss of knowledge.

Q: (L) Well, one of these periods in history was around 1054. This is a very interesting time. It just so happens that there are no European records of this supernova which was recorded by the Chinese, Japanese, and perhaps even the Koreans. Yet, there are no European records. What happened to the European records?
A: Europe was in a "recovery mode" at the "time."
Q: (L) Recovery from what?
A: Loss of civilized structure due to overhead cometary explosion in 564 AD.
Q: (C) There were certain historical facts you picked up, so that doesn't make sense to me. (L) On the other hand it might, because there is some stuff from Gregory of Tours that is real bizarre. What effect did this have on the civilized structure? Was it a direct effect in terms of material, or did it have effects on people causing them to behave in an uncivilized and barbaric way?
A: Well, the burning fragmentary shower ignited much of the land areas in what you now refer to as Western Europe. This had the results you can imagine, causing the resulting societal breakdown you now refer to as "The Dark Ages."
Q: (L) Well, it damn sure was dark. There is almost a thousand years that nobody knows anything about!
A: Check Irish or Celtic, and French or Gallic records of the era for clues. There were temporary "islands of survival," lasting just long enough for the written word to eke out.

The name of Jesus

Q: (L) Who was Jesus of Nazareth?
A: Advanced spirit.

Q: (L) Ask about this letter S*** sent from some source that states that Jesus was a mythical character.
A: No, Jesus was not mythical.

Q: (L) What was Jesus actual name?
A: Jesinavarah.

Q: (RC) Is the word "Jesus" derivative of Isis or Zeus?
A: Neither, Jesus is moniker only.

The parents of Jesus

Q: Did Jesus descend from the house of Judah?
A: Is it important really?

Q: (L) Was Mary a true virgin when she gave birth?
A: No
Q: (L) Did she conceive in the normal way?
A: Yes.

Q: (L) Was Jesus born from an immaculate conception; that is did his mother not have sex with a man in order to conceive him?
A: No.
Q: (L) She did have sex with a man in order to conceive him, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Who was the man with whom she had sex to conceive Jesus?
A: Tonatha.
Q: (L) And who was this individual, Tonatha?
A: Acquaintance.
Q: (L) How old was Jesus mother, Mary, when she conceived Jesus?
A: 19.

Q: (L) Now, it has been discussed before that Jesus was probably the product of a genetically selected impregnation, could you comment on this and why this would be.
A: There was no genetic selection of the impregnation. That is incorrect.
Q: (L) Okay, then what was it?
A: It was a natural conception.
Q: (L) Well what I meant was that the person was selected to be the biological father.
A: Well, that is always the case in every single birth that occurs in your level of density.
Q: (L) Could you comment on the idea that is implicit in this that Jesus was illegitimate?
A: Obviously if one feels that this would put a shadow or stain on him in some way, or the knowledge that he imparted, then you have not been paying attention. Did you not hear what was said about obsession as opposed to knowledge? Those who are truly, within themselves, at all points of development, trying to seek greater knowledge, will not be blocked by any ideas relating to illegitimacy as you refer to it. Those who are obsessed, by choice, rather than trying to seek true knowledge, will indeed be blocked at that point. It is all up to the choice of the individual. If you choose to develop and gain knowledge then you are never blocked or obsessed at any point about anything ever. However if you choose to limit your knowledge or become obsessed then you are constantly finding yourself blocked and this will manifest in all your life experiences. That is part of the individual soul development pattern. It is all based on choice. Therefore it is not possible for you to interfere with another's choice to acquire knowledge or not and how it is or is not done. There is no need to try to alter another's perceptions because that would be to interfere with free will. If one chooses to be obsessed rather than to be illumined, that is their choice!

Q: (L) Was Joseph upset to discover that Mary was pregnant?
A: No.
Q: (L) How old was Joseph when he married Mary?
A: 39.
Q: (L) Was Joseph unable to father children?
A: Close.

Q: (L) I would like more details about the man you say is the biological father of Jesus. Once again, what is his name?
A: Tonatha.
Q: (L) You said he was an acquaintance of Mary's?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Was he selected for some reason to be the biological father of Jesus by other beings or powers.
A: Close.
Q: (L) Can you give us any details about him. What was his lineage, where did he come from, etc.
A: He was a member of the white sect.
Q: (L) What is the white sect?
A: AKA Aryans. Andarans. (Laura's note: Who are the Andarans?)
Q: (L) Was Mary a member of the Essene group?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Was this man also a member of the Essenes?
A: No.
Q: (L) This person, Tonatha, was chosen to be the biological father of Jesus?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Why did Mary not marry him?
A: Feelings were extremely transient.
Q: (L) You are saying she was fickle?
A: No. Influenced by telepathic suggestion.
Q: (L) Was she already betrothed at this time?
A: No. Hypnotized level 1.

Q: […] I was reviewing our Jesus pages for the net, and on the subject of this life of Jesus that you gave, the few details, you mentioned that the biological father of Jesus was an individual named Tonatha. Then, you said that this individual was a member of what you called the 'White Sect' also known as Aryans. Aryans are not precisely known as a sect, but what sect is there among Aryans that you were referring to; what is it called?
A: White sect.
Q: So, they call it the White Sect. Is it like the White Brotherhood?
A: Those of fair complexion who wear white robes.
Q: (T) We call them KKK here! (L) Similar to the Templars? Is there, for example, a name that they call themselves?
A: White Sect.
Q: And when they call themselves this, in what language did they create this moniker?
A: Aramaic.
Q: So, we need to know what it is in Aramaic. What kind of teachings did they follow?
A: Similar to the monks of orthodox Christianity.
Q: If they were similar to the monks of orthodox Christianity, then the activities of this individual in being the biological father of Jesus, would that not be considered to be breaking one's monkly vows?
A: All can be forgiven a singular indiscretion.
Q: So, this Mary knew this individual who was, for all intents and purposes, a monk in this sect and the hypnosis was activated and possibly in him also... was he also hypnotized level 1 as you said about her?
A: Close enough.
Q: He was a monk and he had taken vows, this event occurred and this child was conceived, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Was she also a member of some sort of order?
A: No.
Q: Was she in any way a sort of Temple virgin or did she had spent her whole life preparing to be the vessel for this child?
A: No.
Q: Is it true that the Essene community that was attempting to prepare a vessel for the coming of the messiah, that this was their whole plan, their work?
A: No.
Q: This sect existed... where was this monastery or group located?
A: Near today's Haifa.
Q: Where, in fact, was this child born?
A: [Many spirals] Nazareth.

Q: […] Did he ever know who his biological father was, that his father was a member of this White Sect... did he know that?
A: Vaguely.

Born in the reign of Augustus

Q: Okay. In the original grail stories, St. Anthony was a later insertion to the scenario via Rennes le Chateau. The original hermit was St. Augustine. I find this to be strange, since Jesus was supposed to be born in the reign of Augustus, and many strange things have happened in the month of August to us...
A: Perseid. Connection? What is it?
Q: Are the Perseids part of the remains of Kantek?
A: Refer to data given re: comets, Oort Cloud, and twin/dark star phenomenon. Then interface with legend or legends.

'The Virgin' Mary is celebrated on the 15th of August and the Perseids peak on the 12th.

The birth of Jesus, "the star" and the Magi

Q: […] One of the ancient apocryphal texts recounts the story that Joseph, husband of Mary, the mother of Jesus, described the night that Jesus was born and in that account, he described an event that could only be "frozen time." In other words, he said that time stopped. He described people sitting at dinner with their food half-way to their mouths, arms frozen, jaws frozen in the act of chewing, and the same effect with cattle and so forth. But, that he was on his way to get a midwife when this occurred. Did, in fact, time stop at the time of the birth of Jesus?
A: Time "stops" for many at many times according to their individual sensitivity levels.
Q: According to sensitivity level. Why does sensitivity level have something to do with time stopping?
A: It has stopped for you too.
Q: Does it ever stop for the whole planet at once?
A: It never "started."

Q: (L) What date, counting backwards in our calendrical system, was Jesus born on?
A: 01 06 minus 14.
Q: (L) What time of day was he born?
A: 6 am.
Q: (L) Was there any unusual celestial event in terms of star or planet alignments at that time?
A: No.

Q: (L) What was the star the Magi saw in the East that led them to the place where he was born? Was there an event where the Magi came to present gifts?
A: Close.
Q: (L) Who was it that came to present him gifts?
A: 3 prophets.
Q: (L) What country did these prophets come from?
A: Iran. Also known as Persia.

Q: (L) What gifts did the magi/prophets bring to Jesus as a baby?
A: Gold; spices; clothing.

Q: (L) What was the "star" that indicated to the prophets...
A: Spaceship.
Q: (L) What kind of space ship?
A: Mother.
Q: (L) Where did this mothership come from?
A: Other realm.
Q: (L) Does that mean other realm as in dimension or density?
A: Yes.

Q: (L) What other realm did the mother ship come from that was sighted by the magi?
A: 5th density.
Q: (L) And what was the purpose of the appearance of this mother ship at the time of the birth of Jesus?
A: Too vague.
Q: (L) Was it here for specific purposes relating to the birth of Jesus?
A: To lead the prophets.
Q: (L) Was that the main purpose?
A: No. Also observation of event and encoding.
Q: (L) Encoding of what?
A: Infant.
Q: (L) Was that encoding done physically or telepathically?
A: Both.

Q: (L) Was Jesus genetically altered?
A: After birth and during childhood.

Q: (L) What realm or area did Jesus come from before he was born into the earth in the body of Jesus of Nazareth?
A: 5th density.
Q: (L) He was a fifth density soul?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Had he had any other incarnations in other human bodies on planet earth?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) How many incarnations did he have before he achieved fifth density?
A: 1009.
Q: (L) Was Melchizidek an incarnation of Jesus?
A: No.
Q: (L) Was Joshua, the right hand man of Moses an incarnation of Jesus?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Are there any other incarnations of Jesus with which we would be familiar if you were to name them?
A: Yes. Socrates.
Q: (L) What was the spiritual relationship of Jesus to John the Baptist?
A: Pact.
Q: (L) What was the spiritual relationship of Jesus to Mary, his mother?
A: Pact.
Q: (L) There was no other spiritual relationship in the sense of being combined souls?
A: No.
Q: (L) Were either Mary or John the Baptist fifth density souls?
A: Both.

Q: Did he have a twin?
A: No.
Q: Was Judas Iscariot his brother?
A: No.
Q: Did he have a brother named Jude or Judas?
A: No.
Q: Did he have brothers and sisters?
A: No.
Q: Is any part of the nativity story true?
A: Slight.

What did Jesus look like?

Q: (L) What did Jesus look like? How tall was he?
A: 5'9"
Q: (L) What color eyes did he have?
A: Blue.
Q: (L) What color hair did he have?
A: Strawberry blond.
Q: (L) What was his skin tone?
A: Fair.
Q: (L) What was his weight?
A: 160.
Q: (L) Was he muscular?
A: Average.
Q: (L) Was he what we would consider handsome?
A: Open.
Q: (L) Is there anybody I or F*** would know who bears a resemblance to him in facial features?
A: Maybe.
Q: (L) Could you name someone?
A: Scanning....

Q: (L) The other night when we were talking about Jesus, I asked if there was any historical person we knew who resembled him and said you were scanning.
A: No.

Education

Q: (L) Jesus grew up to the age of twelve, at which point he was Bar Mitzvahed, is that correct?
A: He was Bar Mitzvahed at the age of 10.
Q: (L) Did he at that time receive training elsewhere?
A: Aramaic rite.
Q: (L) Did Jesus, during the course of his growing up years travel to other countries and study under other masters?
A: No.
Q: (L) Where did he receive his teaching or training?
A: Channeled to him.

Q: (L) Okay what was his occupation?
A: Carpenter

The family life of Jesus

Q: (L) Did Mary and Joseph, once together, subsequently have other children?
A: No. But Jesus did.
Q: (L) Jesus had children? Who was he married to?
A: Was not.
Q: (L) You mean he had illegitimate children?
A: Subjective institutionally.
Q: (L) Who was the mother of these children?
A: There were three women.
Q: (L) There were three women?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Are they mentioned in the Bible?
A: One is but not by name.
Q: (L) Who was one of them?
A: Alicia.
Q: (L) What was the name of the second one?
A: Rafea.
Q: (L) The third one?
A: Vella. Romans.
Q: (L) All three of them were Romans?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) And what happened to the children?
A: Survived and multiplied fruitfully.
Q: (L) How many children were there from the three mothers?
A: Three.
Q: (L) Is that, as some people claim, the true meaning of the search for the Holy Grail, that it is not a cup but the "Sang Real", or holy blood line?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Are there any descendants of Jesus living today?
A: 364,142.

Q: (L) I wanted to ask what was Jesus' blood type?
A: B negative.
Q: (L) A lot of people say it was AB...
A: No.

Q:[…] How can I find if there is going to be a connection between the Aryan/Jewish bloodline of Jesus and the Merovingian/Plantagenet? bloodline? Does it exist?
A: Only to the extent of the shared origins of the essenes and the Celts.

Q: (L) You say that Christ gave into temptation, could you please clarify what that means to us?
A: Three women represented sexual temptation. He felt bad after each. He washed himself and asked for strength and forgiveness.

Q: (L) […] previously you said that Jesus had sexual relations with women after he was Christed, is that correct?
A: No. Before.
Q: (L) So, after he was Christed he had no sexual relations?
A: Correct.

Q: […] did Mary Magdalene exist as a person?
A: Yes.
Q: Was she the wife of Jesus?
A: No.
Q: Did Jesus have a wife?
A: Yes.
Q: Who was his wife?
A: Anatylenia.
Q: Who was this person?
A: The wife of Jesus.
Q: What was her background, her nationality?
A: Nazarene.
Q: Does that mean that she was from the east?
A: Possibly, if viewed that way.
Q: Did they have any children?
A: Yes.
Q: How many?
A: Three.
Q: What was the family name?
A: Marnohk.
Q: What did his wife do when he ascended into the stat of hyperconsciousness which you have previously described?
A: Awaited her turn to transition.
Q: Did she continue to live in the same general area, or did she move to Europe.
A: Same.

Q: You said he had children by three Roman women and he also had a wife?
A: Close enough.

Q: (L) You said that Jesinavarah had three children with three Roman women. I never asked if they were male or female children. Were they male or female?
A: Vella? What would you suppose?
Q: (L) The names Vella, Rafae and Alicia were given as the names of the three women who were the mothers. Was I mistaken and did I garble it when it was really the names of the children?
A: Sometimes, one follows another.
Q: (L) What were the names of the children of Jesus?
A: You have the clues, and your quest has been admirable so far, why stop now?

Q: I want to clarify the issue of Jesus' wives. The first time we asked, you said that Jesus was not married, but had three children with three Roman women. The second time we asked, you said he had a wife, Anatylenia, and had three children with this one woman. My question is: did he have six children, three with one woman, and one each with three other women?
A: No.
Q: He had a wife and not the three Roman women?
A: No.
Q: Did he have a wife?
A: Three women, all were wives, in the "Biblical sense."
Q: Now, Anatylenia was one of these Roman women?
A: Yes.
Q: Who were here parents? What was her patronym?
A: Sermalain and Galleinia.
Q: There were three children, one from each woman?
A: Yes.
Q: Male and female children?
A: Yes.
Q: How many of these children were male?
A: Two.

The Illumination of Jesus and his mission

Q: (L) Was Jesus an individual who had psychic or unusual powers from birth?
A: Close.
Q: (L) Did he have an awareness from the earliest times of his life that he was in some way special or chosen?
A: yes.

Q: (L) Was Jesus Christed in the sense of having some special mantle of power falling over him at the time of his baptism?
A: Nearly correct.
[…]

Q: […] At what age did he receive this enlightenment?
A: Was progressive.

Q: (L) Was Jesus special, Christed as it is called, in any way?
A: Quick exalted to end the wars and civil entrancement; Zindar council.
Q: (L) What is the Zindar Council?
A: Two cycle exchangers mission.
Q: (L) What does that mean?
A: References vast.

Q: (L) During a previous reading we asked several questions about Jesus of Nazareth known as the Christ. The question was asked: "Was Jesus special, that is, Christed, in some way?" The answer came back was: "Quick exalted; wars; civil entrancement. Zindar council." I would like to know the meaning of these references.
A: Quick exalted refers to a sudden boost of awareness level as related to your previous questions about knowledge. Sometimes that acquisition can occur in a surge and sometimes this is referred to as illumination. Jesus acquired his knowledge by having complete faith in his ability to acquire the knowledge from a higher source. This faith caused an equal balancing interaction with higher sources, which allowed him to gain supreme knowledge simply by having that faith. Remember that the resources for the acquisition of knowledge in the space/time ere of Christ were much more limited than they are now. There were few options open for acquiring true knowledge except total and complete faith. And this one was instilled with the awareness that total and complete faith would cause dramatic and spectacular acquisition of knowledge; also would cause dramatic and spectacular progression of the soul being. Therefore, the faith was felt, the knowledge was received.
Q: (L) What was the source of the knowledge?
A: The source was the sixth level of density which is where we reside and we also were involved in that as well.
Q: (L) What does the term "Civil entrancement" mean?
A: Civil entrancement is a complete balancing of one's useful energies to a level where there is no experiencing of over balancing on the positive or negative side which is preferable for meditation in a mass form.
Q: (L) What is the Zendar Council?
A: Zendar Council is a sixth level density council which spans both physical and ethereal realms and which oversees dramatic development points at various civilizational sectors in lower density levels.
Q: (L) I would like you to expound a bit on the life of Christ in terms of chronology of events. Could you tell us about his understanding about himself, his interaction with higher sources, his state of being Christed, and what was the true work he came her to do and how did he accomplish it?
A: His awareness of who and what he was gradually came as he grew. He was taught by us through his faith as described previously. And you should have faith as well because you would find things would come to you as "knowings" more often than even now. Jesus awareness of his mission and his actions pertaining to it were part of the natural progression of his growth and development. The information about his "miracles" has been largely corrupted by writings which have been passed down after the actual event period. Most of these writings are by entities who wish to confuse and corrupt all humanity for previously stated purposes. The idea was that if one perceived Jesus as performing physical miracles, then your entire understanding of what the life experience here on earth and on this plane is, and the meaning for it all, is also corrupted and the knowledge is blocked which is the goal of those who have done this. Jesus' purpose and plan was to teach knowledge to all who sought but did not have the strength to express as great a level of faith as he had to acquire the knowledge as he did from higher sources. If they were open and willing to learn they could be taught by hearing. He had only very limited success in imparting faith to others because faith comes solely from within and that is one of the most difficult things for beings on your plane to acquire.

Q: (L) Rudolf Steiner called Christ "The most sublime human principle ever to unfold on earth," is this an accurate statement?
A: One interpretation.
Q: (L) He also said: "The Christ, who in the course of this evolution lived 3 years in the body of Jesus of Nazareth..." Is this a correct statement? Did the Christ statement enter Jesus at age 30?
A: Formed then.
Q: (L) How did this sublime being, the Christ, dwell in a human body?
A: Natural process caused by supremely pure faith and thought.

Q: (L) Did the Christ spirit descend into the body of Jesus in his 30th year?
A: No.
Q: (L) What happened?
A: Formed within him. And it could do thusly in anyone who reaches such levels of service to others plus faith and supreme levels of pure thought.

Where Jesus moved and worked

Q: (L) Did he at any point in his life travel to India?
A: No.
Q: (L) Did he travel to Egypt and undergo an initiation in the Great Pyramid?
A: No.
Q: (L) He lived his entire life in Palestine?
A: Near. In that general area. The Bible is not entirely accurate.

Q: […]Where, precisely, did this person who came to be known as Jesus live?
A: Aramaia.
Q: Where is that?
A: In what is now Lebanon.

Q: (L) Did he own his own home?
A: No.

Jesus among the people

Q: His name was Jesinavarah, as you said before. During his lifetime, did he have a large following?
A: Towards the end, and after.

Q: (L) When Jesus attended the marriage at Cana, whose wedding was it?
A: Did not happen.
Q: (L) Did Jesus feed thousands of people with a few loaves and fishes?
A: No.
Q: (L) Are you saying that all the miracles of the Bible are myths?
A: Remember this is corrupted information altered after the fact for purposes of political and economic gain and control.

Q: (L) Did he raise Lazarus from the dead?
A: No.
Q: (L) Did he raise anybody from the dead?
A: No.

Q: (L) Did he walk on water?
A: No.
Q: (L) Did he turn water into wine?
A: No.
Q: (L) Are these all just stories?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) What is the purpose of the stories?
A: Control.

What Jesus really did

Q: (L) Tell us what Jesus really did.
A: He taught spiritual truths to those starving for them.
Q: (L) And what was the basis of these spiritual truths?
A: Channeled information from higher sources.
Q: (L) What is the truth that Jesus taught?
A: That all men are loved by the creator and are one with same.
Q: (L) Did he perform miracles?
A: Some.
Q: (L) Can you tell us about one or two of them?
A: Healing.
Q: (L) Was he able to literally heal with the touch of his hand?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Did he perform exorcisms?
A: Close.
Q: (L) Is Reiki the method he used to heal; or something similar?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Is there any way to enhance the Reiki energy to make it powerful enough that one could do in a very short time what now takes quite a while?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) What can one do to enhance the Reiki energy?
A: Attain lofty spiritual purity.

Q: (L) I would like to know, in the description of the Pentecost, it was said that the disciples gathered in a room and prayed for days and days and suddenly a wind came rushing in and flames danced over their heads and they all began speaking in tongues. I would like to know if this event or something similar occurred?
A: No.
Q: (L) In other words, the true baptism of the "Holy Spirit" was when Jesus breathed on his disciples and transmitted something like the Reiki initiation?
A: Close.

Q: (L) Let's go back to Jesus. Are the only miracles he did healing?
A: No.
Q: (L) What other kinds of miracles did he do?
A: Telekinesis.

Q: (L) Are there any other miracles he did that are outstanding?
A: Miracles are subjective.

Why demons and evil spirits were afraid of Jesus

Q: (L) Do demons and evil spirits fear anything?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Do they fear any power that we, as humans, possess?
A: Yes. Knowledge.
Q: (L) Do they fear religious symbols, signs or figures?
A: No.
Q: (L) Is there any name or sign or symbol that can halt their activity?
A: Sometimes.
Q: (L) Were they afraid of Christ?
A: Yes. Because of his knowledge. The mass of his knowledge raised his vibrations. Knowledge is truly power.

Jesus in the story about the adulteress

Q: (L) What did Christ write on the ground in the story about the adulteress who was about to be stoned?
A: Look into soul.
Q: (L) That is what he wrote?
A: Yes. Translation.

The story of Mary Magdalene washing Jesus' feet

Q: I have an idea relating to the ancient gods and heroes... they all had these massive amounts of hair, and it seemed that cutting off the hair caused them to lose their strength in some way. Was this totally symbolic, or was it actually believed that they had to grow their hair?
A: Symbolic.
Q: What was the hair symbolic of?
A: Virility.
Q: Okay, virility. What was the symbology where women were concerned such as in the story of Mary Magdalene washing Jesus' feet and drying it with her hair?
A: Act like a brush.
Q: What was the symbology of using a brush on the feet?
A: Cleansing.
Q: Why would the feet require cleansing in the symbolic stories? Why was this a symbolic act?
A: One's standing emanates from the ground upon which one stands.
Q: How does one's standing emanate from the ground upon which one stands and how does this relate to one's feet being dried with hair?
A: Energy arises from within planet. You would not want to corrupt that with filth on the soles, would you?
Q: How does anything on the soles of the feet corrupt energy? People have dirty feet all the time! Gosh, they must be completely corrupted. Unless this was a particular ritual activity in which it was extremely important to have clean feet.
A: Would dirt on your eyes corrupt your sight?
Q: Of course! But nobody ever thinks about dirt on the body as being something that corrupts your energy.
A: Nobody?
Q: Alright, in general. So, this was a purification of energy process...
A: Symbolic of same in depiction.
Q: What was the purpose for which this ritual act was being performed? She was washing his feet before the crucifixion, or some sort of symbolic cleansing was taking place, am I correct?
A: Close.

The last days in the story of Jesus

Q: (L) Was Jesus crucified?
A: No.
[…]
Q: (L) Was somebody crucified on a cross and represented to be Jesus?
A: No.

Q: What does the cross symbolize?
A: The symbology is not the issue. It is the effect.
Q: What is the effect of the cross?
A: All that has followed it.
Q: Could you list some of these to give me a clue?
A: You know these.

Q: This event that is described in the New Testament as the crucifixion was obviously a symbol for something else. You have told us that this was a symbolic story...
A: More like propaganda.
Q: So, the crucifixion was not symbolic of some other hidden meaning, or event?
A: See "Gods of Eden."

Q: (L) There was no crucifixion, there was no resurrection after three days, is that correct?
A: Close.
Q: (L) Okay, what is the truth on that matter?
A: Left earth plane on ship after extended sleep state.
Q: (L) When did he go into this sleep state? Did he just go in one day and go to bed and go to sleep and then a ship came and picked him up?
A: Close.
Q: (L) So he appeared to his followers to have died?
A: They thought this.
Q: (L) Did he get up and say anything to anybody before he left on the ship?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Did he come back to life...
A: Yes.
Q: (L) And then he told them things he had seen in his extended meditative sleep, is that what happened?
A: Close.
Q: (L) Okay, what happened?
A: Told prophecies then proclaimed eventual return.
Q: (L) Was this information he got during this period of extended sleep?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) How long was he asleep, or in this state of semi- death?
A: 98 hours.
Q: (L) And then, a ship arrived and took him away, is that correct?
A: Yes. Upon pillar of light.

Q: You said that he was not crucified, that he was taken up into a ship on a beam of light - at what age did this happen?
A: Age is not measured.
Q: At that time, according to our measurement, how many years did he spend on the earth plane before he was taken up in this beam of light?
A: 43.
Q: Okay, when he was taken up in this beam of light, where did this event occur?
A: The Sea of Galilee. [Note: name of Galilee and possible relation to Gaul?]
Q: On the shore?
A: Yes.

Q: (L) Details about Jesus' extended "sleep" state.
A: He spent 96 hours in a comatose state in a cave near Jerusalem. When he awoke, he prophesied to his disciples and then exited the cave. 27,000 people had assembled because of mother ship appearance and he was taken up in a beam of light.

Q: (L) The passages attributed to Jesus in Matthew 24 and Luke 21, where Jesus predicts the end of the age and his return, is that fairly accurately rendered?
A: Close.

Q: (L) In the recent past you indicated that chapter 24 of Matthew and chapter 21 of Luke, were given by Jesus after his extended sleep state. Now, both of those chapters refer to the present time as being like the days of Noah. Is that a correct assessment?
A: In a sense and individual events are as yet undetermined.

After Jesus left the Earth plane

Q: (S) What about the prayers that are directed to Jesus?
A: Jesus is one of us in "special service" sector.
Q: (L) Like a "green beret?"
A: No, more like a "beige beret."
Q: (L) What is a 'beige beret?'
A: Just our term.
Q: (PZ) Well, I have just always wondered if this praying business is a bunch of malarkey. (L) Oh, no. (PZ) If I pray a rosary, I am praying to the Virgin Mary. Who is she? Where is she?
A: "She" is here too.
Q: (PZ) Does that prayer go directly to her and does she then send you out to do whatever?
A: She is not really a she. And when you write to "Ann Landers," does she really see it? And Good night.

Q: (RC) […] Don't you have to pray in the name of Jesus for protection?
A: Prayers are not necessary for protection once channel, or more appropriately, conduit is properly grooved!

Q: (L) Is there any special power or advantage in praying in the name of Jesus?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Well, if he didn't die and release his spirit into the earth plane, how is this power conferred?
A: Prayers go to him.
Q: (L) And what does he do when he hears the prayers?
A: Determines their necessity against background of individual soul development.
Q: (L) You said that when a person prays to Jesus that he makes some sort of a decision, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Well, how can he do that when millions of people are praying to him simultaneously?
A: Soul division.
Q: (L) What do you mean by soul division?
A: Self explanatory.
Q: (L) Do you mean soul division as in cellular meiosis where a cell splits and replicates itself?
A: No.
Q: (L) Does Jesus' soul divide?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) How many times does it divide?
A: Endlessly as a projection of consciousness.
Q: (L) And what happens to this piece of soul that is divided or projected?
A: Is not a piece of a soul.
Q: (L) What is it?
A: It is a replication.
Q: (L) Is each replication exactly identical to the original?
A: Yes. And no.
Q: (L) In what way is the replicated soul different from the original?
A: Not able to give individual attention.
Q: (L) Are any of us able to replicate in this manner if we so desire?
A: Could if in same circumstance. The way the process works is thus: When Jesus left the earth plane, he went into another dimension or density of reality, whereupon all "rules" regarding the awareness of time and space are entirely different from the way they are perceived here. At this point in space time his soul which was/is still in the physical realm, was placed in a state of something akin to suspended animation and a sort of advanced form of unconsciousness. From that point to the present his soul has been replicated from a state of this unconsciousness in order that all who call upon him or need to be with him or need to speak to him can do so on an individual basis. His soul can be replicated ad infinitum--as many times as needed. The replication process produces a state of hyper- consciousness in each and every version of the soul consciousness.

Q: (L) Is Jesus, in fact, in a state of suspension, voluntarily, in another plane of existence, having chosen to give up his life on this plane in order to continuously generate replications of his soul pattern for other people to call upon for assistance?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) If one calls upon him more than once, does one get a double dose?
A: Define.
Q: (L) If one repeatedly calls upon Jesus does one get repeated replications or additional strength, power or whatever?
A: No.
Q: (L) In other words, once one has truly made the connection, that's it?
A: That's all that's needed.
Q: (L) Has any other soul volunteered to perform this work?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) How many souls are doing this work at the present time?
A: 12.
Q: (L) Can you name any of the others?
A: Bhudda. Moses. Shintanhilmoon. Nagaillikiga. Varying degrees; Jesus is the strongest currently.

Q: So, you are saying that a man named Jesinavarah lived in Palestine at about that period, was a teacher, achieved Christhood, and was taken up into a UFO and is in another dimensional time warp doing some kind of work... is that the case?
A: Yes. Replicated consciousness.

Q: (V) Is the Godspark the portion of the Creator that lives within us, the soul, so to speak?
A: Sounds good.
Q: (L) If the godspark is the soul within us, does anybody have godsparks times 2 or 3 or so on? That is more than others?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) What type of person would have more Godspark than anybody else?
A: Jesus has Godsparks ad infinitum.
Q: (L) How does Jesus have Godsparks ad infinitum?
A: Soul replication for communication purposes.
Q: (L) So, every time we call upon Jesus, we are replenishing our Godspark?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Would you describe these soul replications as being more like a template or hologram?
A: Hologram.
Q: (L) And what is his connection to the Creator that enables him to do this soul replication?
A: Volunteered.

'You also said something about Christ returning'

Q: And you also said something about Christ returning. Is that also true?
A: Discover.

Q: You also said that Jesus was going to return; that he would emerge from this other density experience and come as a teacher. Is this because he is the number one teacher doing this work at the time?
A: More because the messenger most capable of delivering the message, because of expectations.
Q: And what message is he going to deliver?
A: Wait and see.
Q: You mean that we, the three of us sitting here, will see him and hear this message at some point in this reality?
A: Maybe.
Q: Would we have instant recognition?
A: Wait and see.

Q: (L) […] If part of the use of this psychomantium is to bring the earth to the point of 4th density transitional adjustment, is part of that project also an opening of a doorway for Jesus, who is in the state of suspended animation as you have previously described, to re- emerge into the world?
A: Or re-emerge into the consciousness.
Q: (L) Of who or what?
A: All 4th density inductees.
Q: (L) Well, you once said that he was actually in a flesh body in this 'time warp' in a state of suspended animation, so to speak, or a place of no time...
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Is something going to happen where this singular individual, Jesus, is going to...
A: No need for that.
Q: (L) So, at the point of this 4th density transitional adjustment, what will Jesus, in his state of suspended animation be doing? Will he continue in that state forever, or will he make some shift of his own?
A: The shift is yours. Afterwards, you can see that which you cannot yet see.
Q: (L) Sure! But, the big problem seems to be getting to the point of that shift! That seems to be the mission, the quest, the objective of all of this... or am I off base here?
A: Not "objective," just is.

For commentary on the Revelation of John see the files by Laura: http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/666.htm , http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/thebeast.htm and http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/thebeast_2.htm

The first file contains large parts of a transcript from 941016. It ends:

Q: (L) In other words there may be areas of Lizzie control on the planet and areas under the control of Christ?
A: Christ does not control.

to this one could add

Q: (L) Is the place of safety a physical location on the planet?
A: No.
Q: (L) Is the place of safety a hyperdimensional state of being?
A: Yes.

*********************************************************************************************************

Notes
While collecting the above there were some segments that did not fit in but still may be of interest.

Moses and Yahweh

Q: (L) Who was Yahweh.
A: Fictional being.
Q: (L) Who was the god that spoke to Moses on the mount?
A: Audible projection of Lizards.
Q: (L) Did Moses at any time realize that he had been duped by the Lizzies?
A: No.
Q: (L) Yet, the other night you said that Moses is also doing work with Christ on another plane, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Well, if he was misled by the Lizzies, how did he get to be a good guy?
A: Taught afterward.
Q: (L) After what?
A: Plane transfer.
Q: (L) Did Moses die?
A: No.
Q: (L) Who took him?
A: Us.

Who was St. Issa of India?

Q: (L) Who was St. Issa of India.
A: Lama Kirtanah.
Q: (L) Where was he from?
A: Palestine.
Q: (L) When was he in India?
A: 13 and 14 AD

About purported travels of Jesus

Q: Okay. You said that he was taken up and is doing this replicating. All these other people are saying that he went here and there and is buried here or there. Is any of this true?
A: No.
Q: Who is responsible for these stories? Some of them are quite old.
A: Many.
Q: What is the purpose of these stories?
A: Mixed.
Q: Is there any particular group of people that is seeking to obfuscate or confuse this issue?
A: Maybe.
Q: Who might that be?
A: Telltale signs lead you to the signpost.
Q: So, this could be a positive thing?
A: Partly

About the 'abomination of desolation' as disinformation

Q: (L) […] We were discussing earlier this evening the 'abomination of desolation' as written about by the prophet Daniel and also spoken of by Jesus. What is this?
A: Disinformation.
Q: (L) Are you saying that the abomination of desolation IS disinformation, or that the writing about it is disinformation?
A: Both.
Q: (L) Can you tell us anything to clarify this point?
A: In what way? Q: (L) Who, or what was the source of that information as prophesied by Daniel?
A: Illuminati.

And Isaiah?

Q: (L) What was the source of the prophecies of Isaiah?
A: Fiction.

Maybe originally Daniel had a valid source;

Q: (L) Who was the angel who communicated with the Prophet Daniel?
A: Us.

Jesus did not descend.

Q: (L) What was the source of the belief that Christ descended into hell during the course of his so-called death?
A: Superstitions created hundreds of years after his work.

With regard to Melchizidek.

Q: (L) Why is Jesus described as being a priest after the order of Melchizidek?
A: We told you that 70 per cent of the Bible is false.
Q: (L) Well, 70 per cent would equal an amount that could consist of the entire old testament.
A: Yes.

About mono atomic substances.

(F) Well, did Jesus take this gold powder? (L) Did Jesus take this powder?
A: No.
Q: (L) Did Adolph Hitler take this kind of powder, or something similar?
A: Yes.

About animal spirits, and shamanism

Q: (L) According to shamanistic teachings, one can have animal spirits or guides. Is this correct?
A: Partly. You have them if you believe you have them.
Q: (L) If believing in them makes it so, is this belief beneficial?
A: All belief is beneficial at some level.
Q: (L) Did Jesus of Nazareth believe in animal spirits or totems?
A: No.
Q: (L) Is it just New Age revival of superstition?
A: Shamanism is subjective and limits. Lizard inspired.

About John the Baptist

Q: (L) Did John the Baptist really lose his head?
A: No.

About Paul

Q: (L) Who did Paul encounter on the road to Damascus.
A: Spirit of the 6th density.

Q: (L) D4's next question: what did Paul say during his out of body experience, and why were these things not 'lawful for a man to speak?'
A: Jesus said: "Give to Caesar that which is Caesars."
Q: (L) How does that apply to this question?
A: Ponder for learning.

Q: When the person who was later represented as Jesus lived, was that, as Paul described it, a New Covenant of Blood?
A: No.

About the Revelation of John

Q: (L) Who gave John Revelation?
A: The Lizzies.

Q: (L) If the Revelations are from the "bad" guys, are they an accurate portrayal of the end times?
A: Close.

The basis of the Gnostic texts

Q: (L) What is the basis of the Gnostic texts such as the apocryphon of John?
A: Ancient atheists.

About the Shroud of Turin

Q: (L) I would like to know if the Shroud of Turin was ever wrapped around Jesus.
A: No.
Q: (L) Was it wrapped around somebody who was crucified?
A: No.
Q: (L) How was it made?
A: Wrapped around Roman worker.
Q: (L) What caused the image on the shroud?
A: Body oils, hormones and other physiological chemicals.

Q: (L) Okay, forget that. Now, I am reading this book called "The Jesus Conspiracy" about the Shroud of Turin. Now, we once asked about this and you said that the image was of a Roman worker. Apparently this worker was crucified. Was this individual who was crucified, done so in the specific manner as was described for Jesus, with deliberate intent to create the illusion that the image on the Shroud HAD to be of Jesus, since Jesus was the only person who could have possibly suffered all these exact wounds as described in the Gospels?
A: No. Crucifixion was once a "popular" punishment method.
Q: (L) Can you tell us approximately what year this Roman worker was crucified who left his image on this shroud?
A: 399 A.D.
Q: (L) Okay, it has been tested and said that this individual had type AB blood, which has then led a lot of people to say that Jesus' blood type was AB...
A: But it is not.
Q: (L) Well, the science of histology has shown that type AB did not even EXIST at the time of Jesus...

Descendants of Jesus

Q: (L) Are there any fifth density souls on the earth today or any of recent times we would recognize?
A: Yes. Arafat. Sadat. Pope John V.

Q: (L) Were any of the descendants of Jesus famous individuals that we would know.
A: Yes. Yassar Arafat. Churchill.

Q: (L) On a couple of occasions it has been mentioned that Yasser Arafat was a fifth density soul and that he was a descendant of Jesus of Nazareth. What is there about him that demonstrates these qualities or these genetics?
A: Have you not seen? Imagine what it would be like to be Yasser Arafat. Look at your perception. What is he doing now?
Q: (L) Well the pro-Jewish point of view is not favorable to him.
A: Well, what you describe as pro anything is an obsession. And, as we know, obsession blocks knowledge which in turn blocks the ability to protect oneself against negative occurrences. Not a good idea. If you were following circumstances, Yasser Arafat is now trying to take the world upon his shoulders by making peace with the Israelis who have been enemies for a very long time. And, therefore, he is now a peace maker and knowledge dispenser.
Q: (L) In that particular conflict between the Jews and the Arabs, which side has the greater validity?
A: All sides have equal validity. It is only with individuals we find negativity or positivity.

About Course in Miracles

Q: […] (L) […]I do want to ask about the "Course in Miracles" that is supposed to be channeled by Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit. Is this true?
A: No.
Q: (L) What is the source that this is channeled from?
A: Variable sources.
Q: (L) Are they good guys?
A: Some.
Q: (L) So, even the "Course in Miracles" must be taken with a grain of salt?
A: Good idea.

Apparitions and information in the name of the Virgin Mary

Q: (L) I have been reading recently about the shrine at Lourdes where the Virgin Mary supposedly appeared to Bernadette Soubirous...
A: Energy focusing center.
Q: (L) What kind of energy is focused there?
A: Positive due to consistent prayer patternings.
Q: (L) Okay, what appeared to Bernadette?
A: Imaging energy consciousness wave.
Q: (L) Was this image out of her own mind?
A: Close.
Q: (L) The healings that take place...
A: Because of the concentration of positive energy.
Q: (L) What or who has been causing the apparitions of the Virgin Mary at Conyers, Georgia?
A: Deceptive field.
Q: (L) What energy is behind this?
A: Lizards.
Q: (L) Why?
A: Confusion campaign part of bigger picture and plan.
Q: (L) What is the bigger picture and plan?
A: Conquest.
Q: (L) How will that aid their conquest?
A: By dispersing knowledge.
Q: (L) Dispersing as in breaking apart or scattering?
A: Spreading thin. Confusion does this. You are being bombarded with confusion in this era.

Q: (B) Are the Lizards behind any of the apparitions of the Virgin Mary around the world?
A: Yes. All of them.
Q: (B) What is the purpose behind this?
A: Diversions and disinformation so that knowledge will be dispersed, therefore more will be open to attack.
Q: (L) If you think about it, propagating belief in the "old time religions" which include belief in hell or purgatory tend to put a person in a very vulnerable position because then they are open to thoughts of guilt, sin, and are therefore susceptible to thought control and terror.
A: Yes.

Q: (SV) There is a book out called "Mary's Message to the World" by Ann Kirkwood. Is this book a transmission from the Virgin Mary?
A: No.
Q: (L) Who is this transmission from?
A: Various thought centers.
Q: (L) Why do these thought centers identify themselves as the Virgin Mary?
A: For purposes of familiarity.
Q: (L) Are these thought centers STS or STO?
A: Open. Discover by studying previously given information. You should review the material regularly, not just to familiarize yourselves with data, but also to learn by piecing together thought pattern segments!
Q: (L) If I remember correctly, there have been numerous presentations of the Virgin Mary put forward for disinformation purposes by the STS groups. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Have there also been presentations of the Virgin Mary put forward by the STO groups?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) So, depending upon the results, and the teaching, that would be what would enable one to determine whether it is STO or STS?
A: Partly.
Q: (L) Is there some other measuring stick that we can use to determine whether teachings are correct or incorrect?
A: Wisdom by way of instincts; all there is -- is lessons.
Q: (SV) I was thinking about that earlier today. If you are under attack, how do you know if your instincts are correct? (L) Are instincts different from emotions?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) How can you tell the difference between instinctive knowledge and emotional reactions?
A: Emotions involve wishful thinking, instincts are "gut feelings," psychic in nature, and are stronger. When it is wishful thinking, there is always psychic instinct seeping through which you can access if you use reason and examine your lessons of the past.

thorbiorn

 

[Laura]

The life of Jesus in the Cassiopaean transcripts

Excellent collection! Thanks!

 

[observer]

The life of Jesus in the Cassiopaean transcripts

Thank you thorbiorn for this. I just don't understand one thing: was Jesus born on June 1st or January 6th?

 

[Al Today]

The life of Jesus in the Cassiopaean transcripts

Back in my Mormon days, I was told JC was born on June 6.

 

[Zadius Sky]

The life of Jesus in the Cassiopaean transcripts

My uncle believes that JC was born on March 6th.

 

[observer]

The life of Jesus in the Cassiopaean transcripts

My uncle believes that JC was born on March 6th.

I think C's transmitted June 1st, since Mercury archetype (mind, awareness, consciousness) is related to Gemini energy.

 

[NormaRegula]

The life of Jesus in the Cassiopaean transcripts

Yes...many thanks for putting this together, Thorbiorn!

There was always a part of my being that sensed Jesus was a person, spiritually advanced, and who had a specific mission....just not the propagandized and confusing (hah...downright violent, fear-inducing) life and end times scenario that millions seeking spiritual truth have been led to believe for two thousand years.

It was also interesting to read Laura's questions ("illegitimate" kids...no stupendous miracles...no raising of the dead!) and comments at that time in her journey. The C's handled it well...like many of the moderators on this forum have done with newbies who show positive signs of wanting to overide instilled programs.

The Christmas holiday push is almost in full swing here in the US of A. (Well, it's been that way in a lot of stores since shortly after Labor Day!) The spend, spend, spend atmosphere and "Jesus is the reason for the season" platitude, (which means spend your dough at Family Christian Bookstores...or Wal-Mart like a good American consumer) while the world burns is depressing. Listening to "I Heard the Bells on Christmas Day" sung by Andy Williams doesn't help ease the situation with those of us just beginning to awaken to the horror of it all.

Reading the C's take on Jesinvarah's struggles, faith, and true mission to serve others brings hope, knowledge, and another chance to ponder the future in a more objective manner. Thanks, again!

 

[Laura]

The life of Jesus in the Cassiopaean transcripts

It was January 6.

 

[NormaRegula]

The life of Jesus in the Cassiopaean transcripts

It was January 6.

That's close to the Orthodox Christian calendar that celebrates Christmas on January 7th.