Joe's bomb

[Guest]

Firstly I apologise for the length of this post. But if you look at the responses since my last, it's only fitting that I try to meet as many points as possible, which will contribute to it's length.


I responded to your initial post as 'nitpicking' because I have, as you say, an axe to grind.
Let it go on the record. I have been trying to 'manipulate you' as you put it into a discussion about prior events between the SOTT team and I.
And yes it has to do with my visit to France. I've been reluctant to mention it outright as I am not really sure how much personal information you and others are willing to discuss over the forum. For all I know, this whole post may be snipped.
So by this, I have 'hinted' in many posts in hopes that the concept would be acknowledged. It's a hard one to get across with just language. It also has something to do with people willing to admit that they aren't totally in control.

Joe wrote:
"Indeed you have met us personally, for all of 3 days, during which time you came across as a person loaded with programs, most of them involving your moving center stealing energy from everywhere else, which of course is mirrored in your chosen profession, which has seriously colored the 33 years of "observations" in which you seem content to place so much faith."

We are all loaded with programs. There is no end to that assumption. What is to say you aren't running just different programs? I have never denied that I run programs. You just observe the program and eventually it falls away, to be replaced by a more effiecient program that you need to disect to reach a higher understanding.

 

[dant]

Ark makes a point, in the given picture that taking the right path in the fork in the road
is the right path to take, and yet the left path is the incorrect path. Did I miss something
in the picture that give fore-knowledge in arriving to that conclusion?

The way I see it is this:

In the picture given, the left path shows me the fact the road continues and winds a bit,
up the hill, then then down below the horizon. The the right path however is truncated;
I cannot see ahead to know what is there? Perhaps a rock or a boulder blocking the way,
perhaps a cliff? It seems to me, a risky proposition?

At least the left road "buys me time" for at least I am still driving along that road until
I reach that horizon... and thus prepare for the next "fork in the road"...

Did I missing something?

 

[anart]

Hi - I realize that this post is rather directed toward Joe, but I have just a few questions about it, because some of the things you've said here don't make much sense, to me at least.

I responded to your initial post as 'nitpicking' because I have, as you say, an axe to grind.
Let it go on the record. I have been trying to 'manipulate you' as you put it into a discussion about prior events between the SOTT team and I.
And yes it has to do with my visit to France. I've been reluctant to mention it outright as I am not really sure how much personal information you and others are willing to discuss over the forum. For all I know, this whole post may be snipped.
So by this, I have 'hinted' in many posts in hopes that the concept would be acknowledged. It's a hard one to get across with just language. It also has something to do with people willing to admit that they aren't totally in control.

Perhaps this 'axe to grind' is the reason you have consistently come across as arrogant here on the forum - perhaps not - but why - if you have this 'axe' - would you not simply address those involved directly about it and ask what happened - instead of engaging in this passive-aggressive forum behavior? It just seems like an odd way to go about it.

We are all loaded with programs. There is no end to that assumption. What is to say you aren't running just different programs? I have never denied that I run programs. You just observe the program and eventually it falls away, to be replaced by a more effiecient program that you need to disect to reach a higher understanding.

Maybe that's not how it works for everyone - maybe some of us observe and remove the cause of the programs and they aren't replaced by another? You seem to be applying your own dynamic to everyone else.

You donot know enough about MY profession to assume it does as you stated. It CAN, just as writing books can steal energy from people as well. But you have never seen me perform and you are making assumptions based on what you think you know about circus. Mostly because you have maybe seen a few, and thats all.

How do you know why Joe is saying what he is saying? You seem very certain that you have all the answers - literally all of the answers. There is no way you can know what Joe may or may not know about what you do. You do, however, clearly exhibit signs of having a serious personal issue with Joe.

So I find a path that inspires others to look in-ward, overcome fear, to be humble, and observe ones weaknesses is a worthy path.

This stopped me cold - do you sincerely consider yourself to be humble? In any way? Seriously - do you really think you are humble?

Much like what SOTT and the Cassiopaean Experiment does, with is pay attention to the signs. I have always respected it. And I have always seen how I could lend a different perspective of the same goal.
Sadly I was judged by some of you as not having anything to offer. I could feel and see it. And there was nothing I could do but let it happen. A different instrument for the same melody...

Just asking for clarification, but did you ask if they felt this way - if this is what they perceived? I've never known any of the people at the Chateau to conclude that anyone has 'nothing to offer'. Could it possibly be that, because you did not receive the attention you are used to receiving - that since you were not the center of attention - that you understood that to mean that they thought you had nothing to offer? I've no way of knowing for certain, of course, but I do know these people well - and your description at this point simply doesn't ring true. Could it simply be that since you are used to being given a lot of attention, that when you were not, you read it as 'having nothing to offer'? I don't mean that in a 'you're wrong' way as much as in a 'you weren't used to being around people who do not expect you to perform' (or who are not impressed by performance) way.

<snip - not for lack of input, but I'll leave it to others>

So my 'stealing of energy' as you call it was a physical dialog in response to a direct request. And I'm curious what you mean by 'stealing of energy'. Did I make you feel sapped of energy or uncomfortable?

I think that Joe meant that your motor center steals energy from your other centers - that your centers are not balanced or working as they should - it is an internal 'theft' of energy from one center to another. This misunderstanding brings up the point that you seem to have a basic lack of understanding about what this Work is about and what it is not about. You also seem to be extremely self-impressed and certain that you have an understanding that others lack - even when given indications that this is not the case. In short, your cup appears to be full. fwiw.

 

[Nathan]

You just observe the program and eventually it falls away, to be replaced by a more effiecient program that you need to disect to reach a higher understanding.

You say observing the program is all it takes to make it fall away? My understanding is that once you've identified a program through self-remembering, you need to then intervene. I don't see how a program would simply "fall away" just by observing it. That seems a bit too easy.

If you are not intervening with these programs, then perhaps this is why Joe sees you as "loaded with programs" to begin with.

The glossary has definitions for programs, self-remembering and identification that I have found quite helpful.

 

[Renaissance]

I observed the routines of your household and saw something that might be detering your progress. It was also the reason I was invited, but I didn't think it appropriate to mention unless ASKED. I was waiting for the request but it never really happened. (...)

Laura's son asked, when we hung out a few times. He asked me the same question as Laura: How to make the physical vehicle function more efficiently to aid learning.

Several things above appear completely bizarre to me. If you were invited for input of how Laura or those in the house could use the physical body to improve the Work - this was asking. Asking needs not always to be explicitly verbal and I think you know this. Furthermore it appears, as you even state, that Jason and Laura both did verbally ask. So what were you waiting for?

Could it possibly be that, because you did not receive the attention you are used to receiving - that since you were not the center of attention - that you understood that to mean that they thought you had nothing to offer? I've no way of knowing for certain, of course, but I do know these people well - and your description at this point simply doesn't ring true. Could it simply be that since you are used to being given a lot of attention, that when you were not, you read it as 'having nothing to offer'?

Given that most of what you (greycat) talk about on this forum concern your 'abilities', not details of 'how' or 'why' (although you do on occasion provide why or how you think such), I'm also inclined to think you do so for attention. Maybe you were just waiting for this kind of attention at the chateau - thinking that it constitutes asking, when it does not.

 

[SeekinTruth]

I completely agree with Laura (and others) that what Joe said is true and needs no further comment. It simply cannot validly be argued that there is ever a time that no action is not better than incorrect action. If you know something is incorrect action (i.e. leads away from your goal/intent/path) and have a real choice of taking no action instead, it is clearly better to take no action. If, on the other hand, you don't know if something is a correct or incorrect action, it is still better to take no action until you have more data to be able to distinguish which is which. And if you think something is correct action, but later find out that it was not, you would rather have taken no action at all (after the fact) when you are already aware that it was the wrong action.

Self-Importance is such a waste of energy. GreyCat, you are going through all sorts of strange contorsions to avoid something that can be quite obvious. You (as do I) have a lot to learn. Yet you have a certain attitude, a certain amount of baggage you are carrying (an unneeded burden) that is an obstacle to significant growth and advancement. It would be better for you to get rid of this. Gurdjieff's terms for Self-Importance (which comes from Castaneda) are Self Love and Vanity. These are all part of the Predator's Mind (among many other things) which keeps us meek and weak, complacent, self satisfied, routinary, contradictary, and running in circles.

I am quite new here and I am here to learn. I always remind myself that I really don't know anything. Comparing what I know to what I don't know, I can pretty confidently say that I don't know much worth mentioning. This attitude of sincere self measurement leads to two important results. It stops all tendencies to being complacent and self satisfied, because being ingnorant is not something I can honestly be satisfied with. And it creates a situation that not only makes it possible, but a great deal more probable that I will continue to learn; I will not miss too many opportunities to learn lessons which are the key to advancement from where I am currently.

Whereas if I already think I know it all (when I certainly do not), how would I learn anything?

 

[Laura]

I observed the routines of your household and saw something that might be detering your progress. It was also the reason I was invited, but I didn't think it appropriate to mention unless ASKED. I was waiting for the request but it never really happened. (...)

Laura's son asked, when we hung out a few times. He asked me the same question as Laura: How to make the physical vehicle function more efficiently to aid learning.

Several things above appear completely bizarre to me. If you were invited for input of how Laura or those in the house could use the physical body to improve the Work - this was asking. Asking needs not always to be explicitly verbal and I think you know this. Furthermore it appears, as you even state, that Jason and Laura both did verbally ask. So what were you waiting for?

That was certainly part of it. Since Greycat had been invited for a particular reason, the fact that he kept dancing around and offering nothing of substance was interesting to observe. I will admit that, considering the circumstances (I have a folder of email exchanges that lay out clearly what was wanted and expected), it never occurred to me that GC was waiting for me to fall on my knees and beg. (Exaggeration, but you get the idea.)

That, again, is a kind of legalistic nitpicking and avoidance of the crux of the matter that simply doesn't jive with our way of being.

Could it possibly be that, because you did not receive the attention you are used to receiving - that since you were not the center of attention - that you understood that to mean that they thought you had nothing to offer? I've no way of knowing for certain, of course, but I do know these people well - and your description at this point simply doesn't ring true. Could it simply be that since you are used to being given a lot of attention, that when you were not, you read it as 'having nothing to offer'?

Given that most of what you (greycat) talk about on this forum concern your 'abilities', not details of 'how' or 'why' (although you do on occasion provide why or how you think such), I'm also inclined to think you do so for attention. Maybe you were just waiting for this kind of attention at the chateau - thinking that it constitutes asking, when it does not.

Well, there was certainly an "agenda" behind GC. As noted, since he claimed in rather grandiose terms in quite a few emails to have learned "secrets" of the physical body, I expected him to know something truly interesting. With numerous food allergies, genetic hyperinsulinism and osteo-arthritis (including spurs on the spine) and a severely compromised physiology due to multiple accidents, what I really needed was someone who could figure out ways that I could move that did not cause pain. Nothing of that kind was ever brought forward and the few conversations we had on the subject persuaded me that he didn't know as much about the workings of the body as I did myself, having spent most of my life trying to figure out exactly what is up with my particular metabolism.

He, on the other hand, expected me to produce for him some "secrets of channeling" or whatever. Since we could observe that he was playing some kind of "cat and mouse" game, and that he certainly had misrepresented himself, we decided to just proceed with the visit in the "normal" way which excluded any such exchanges. After all, if you can observe that a person cannot drive, are you going to give him the keys to a car?

 

[Z...]

I have to say that all this makes alot of sense.

I dont know Grey Cat personally and all I have are his posts on the forum.
From the begining Gray Cat was one of the most intriguing forum members. He was talking about different interesting things , be it encounters with gray aliens be it acrobatics, but as the time passed it became obvious something is missing there.

Actually this is the first time you vere sincere in your posts Gray Cat, and I can read many things from your account of the visit to France.
But I am not goint to do it as I feel it is not my call.
I can only say one thing - healer doesnt think in way you demonstrated in your post.

I hope you will use this opportunity to learn something about yourself and maybe show us the true you one day. I will certainly look forward to it.

 

[Joe]

I responded to your initial post as 'nitpicking' because I have, as you say, an axe to grind,

Let it go on the record. I have been trying to 'manipulate you' as you put it into a discussion about prior events between the SOTT team and I.

Well, first of all I'd like to say that that is a long time to hold a grudge, during which time you have undoubtedly given it many "loops", with no one to provide feedback other than yourself. Secondly, yes it was a manipulation, yet you used quotes around the words 'manipulate you' and followed it with "as you put it", both of which suggest that you do not think that you were manipulating, when you CLEARLY were.

And yes it has to do with my visit to France. I've been reluctant to mention it outright as I am not really sure how much personal information you and others are willing to discuss over the forum. For all I know, this whole post may be snipped.

So by this, I have 'hinted' in many posts in hopes that the concept would be acknowledged. It's a hard one to get across with just language. It also has something to do with people willing to admit that they aren't totally in control.

What "concept" are you talking about here? The concept of "no action" Vs "wrong action" or some concept involved in your visit with us? Clarity is very important in posting to a forum, to make an extra effort to be clear is an act of external consideration, it also takes the focus away from our own often very subjective view and beliefs born of our self-referencing and forces us to present it in more objective terms that others can understand.

"Indeed you have met us personally, for all of 3 days, during which time you came across as a person loaded with programs, most of them involving your moving center stealing energy from everywhere else, which of course is mirrored in your chosen profession, which has seriously colored the 33 years of "observations" in which you seem content to place so much faith."

We are all loaded with programs. There is no end to that assumption. What is to say you aren't running just different programs? I have never denied that I run programs. You just observe the program and eventually it falls away, to be replaced by a more effiecient program that you need to disect to reach a higher understanding.

It is interesting that you chose to respond with defensiveness rather than thinking about what I said to you. It is somewhat of a classic self-calming maneuver for someone to respond to something that someone sees in us by pointing out that "well, we all have these problems. If we all have these problems, then "there is no reason to highlight mine."

Laura invited me to France in order to help 'whip her back into shape'. I'm assuming she did so because she though I knew something about how the body functions. It is my self-ESTEEM that is saying this.

No, this is self-importance. The situation was more along the lines of you contacting Laura and not-so-subtly suggesting that you could "help" in some way, to which she naturally responded that if you are in the area sometime that you could come and visit. To suggest that you got an unsolicited email from Laura one day where she said "come to France and help 'whip me back into shape' is a significant misrepresentation, but you are only lying to yourself, not to us.

I feel right using this word because I am aware, though careful observation, how I have managed to alleviate injury, sickness, and stress through the use of both movement and observation. It is self-esteem because I am aware of how I have both learned and progressed and made mistakes which inspire me to delve deeper in to self. I wasn't born naturally to do what I do. I was inspired to understand myself through physical experience. In doing so, I have seen into the mind and spirit.

"I have seen into the mind and spirit" is a rather grandiose statement, although it is not unusual from someone who can so seamlessly lie to himself. As for being "inspired to understand yourself through physical experience": yeah, you and about 6 billion others.

You do not know enough about MY profession to assume it does as you stated. It CAN, just as writing books can steal energy from people as well. But you have never seen me perform and you are making assumptions based on what you think you know about circus. Mostly because you have maybe seen a few, and thats all.

It is not surprising that you want to defend your profession, you are identified with it, it is you, it is all you have, so you must pump it up to preserve your own self-importance, self-calming and illusions.

When we met, I was harrowed by attacks. Several days before I had seen, clear as day, the first of a wave of negative entity attacks right in front of me. I awoke and looked at one draining me direct. And I was drained, I can tell you that.

The fact that you saw "a wave of negative entity attacks" is of little use to anyone. It is your subjective experience and you are of course free to assign any meaning to it you wish, which you already seem to have done.

The most common human fears are speaking in public and heights.

Sez who? Vertigo "afflicts" around 5-10% of the overall US population.

What my work does is (among other things.) is show people that those fears can be overcome.

Excuse me for saying, but this is not exactly "esoteric" work. Not that it is not laudable, but you seem to have a great need to think that you really are a worthy human being, a need which usually points a distinct and fundamental lack of belief in one's own self-worth. Such people often are very quick to accuse others of not valuing them enough.

Gurdjieff Wrote:

"There are several different kinds of 'considering.' "On the most prevalent occasions a man is identified with what others think about him, how they treat him, what attitude they show towards him. He always thinks that people do not value him enough, are not sufficiently polite and courteous. All this torments him, makes him think and suspect and lose an immense amount of energy on guesswork, on suppositions, develops in him a distrustful and hostile attitude towards people. How somebody looked at him, what somebody thought of him, what somebody said of him—all this acquires for him an immense significance.

"And he 'considers' not only separate persons but society and historically constituted conditions. Everything that displeases such a man seems to him to be unjust, illegal, wrong, and illogical. And the point of departure for his judgment is always that these things can and should be changed. 'Injustice' is one of the words in which very often considering hides itself. When a man has convinced himself that he is indignant with some injustice, then for him to stop considering would mean 'reconciling himself to injustice.'"

Perhaps there is some deep underlying injustice to which you, like so many of us, need to reconcile yourself?

But the most imporant work is the work of the Clown. People are petrefied of appearing out of control and awkward in front of others. The clown does this with true honesty. He is putting it on display for all to see. All the points which with he is the weakest are on display. He sees them, as do others. He cannot hide.

A clown is a man (or woman) who does silly things to make people laugh. Again you are attempting to ascribe a deeper significance to the general area of your profession than actually exists, while neglecting to give enough consideration to the reasons WHY you do this. You are not approaching the crux of the matter. You are avoiding it.

I have had many people thank me after shows for my honesty and vulnerabilty on stage. They have also said I showed them a new perspective and inspired them to broaden thier horizons on how they view thier lives. This can either be seen as 'bragging' or data to acknowlge that the intentions I aimed for were soild. So I find a path that inspires others to look in-ward, overcome fear, to be humble, and observe ones weaknesses is a worthy path.

People say a lot of things, much of it nonsense, because people are asleep. Here's G again:

Today we have only the illusion of what we are. We overestimate ourselves. [...]

Try for a moment to accept the idea that you are not what you think you are, that you overestimate yourself, therefore that you lie to yourself. That you lie to yourself always, every moment, all day long, your whole life. That the lie rules you to the extent that you cannot control it anymore. You are its victim. You lie everywhere. Your relationships with others, lies. The education you' re giving, your petty conventions, lies. Your learning, lies. Your theories, your art, lies. Your social life, your family life, all lies. And what you think of yourself, lies too.

But you don't stop from what you're doing or from what you're saying, because you believe in you.

You have to stop inside and observe. Observe without prejudice. While accepting for a time this idea of lies. And if you observe in this manner, paying of yourself, without self-pity, by giving all your false riches for one moment of reality, maybe someday you'll see all of a sudden something you have never saw in you before. You will see you are someone else from what you thought you are. You will see that you are two. One that is not, but takes the place and play the other's role. And the one that is, but so weak, so inconsistent, that just brought forth it disappears immediately. It cannot stand the lies. The smallest lie kills it. It doesn't fight, it does not resist, it is vanquished in advance.

Learn to look until you have observed the difference between your two natures, until you have seen the lies, the impostor in you. When you will see your two natures, that day, in you, the truth will be born. [...]

The more you will be willing to pay without reticence, without cheating, without falsity, the more you will receive. And from then on, you will meet your true nature. And you will see all the tricks, all the dishonesty it goes to in order to avoid paying cash. Because you have to pay with all the gratuitous theories, all the deeply rooted convictions, all the prejudice, all conventions, all 'I like it' and 'I don't like it'. Without bargaining, honestly, not just make believe. Trying to see while using fake money.

Much like what SOTT and the Cassiopaean Experiment does, with is pay attention to the signs. I have always respected it. And I have always seen how I could lend a different perspective of the same goal.

What you do has little resemblance to what SOTT or Cass does. This is more self-calming and lies to the self.

Sadly I was judged by some of you as not having anything to offer. I could feel and see it. And there was nothing I could do but let it happen. A different instrument for the same melody...

"Judging" implies making an assessment of someone or thing without considering all, or rejecting out of hand some of the available data. We do not do this. We use all available data. So we did not judge you, yet you decided yourself, with no feedback from others, what others were thinking about you. That's extreme self-importance which is often linked to a distinct and fundamental lack of belief in one's own self-worth. Such people often are very quick to accuse others of not valuing them enough.

Did you ever hear the joke about the guy looking for a wrench?

His car broke down one night on a deserted strip of road. He got out and realised he needed a wrench to fix the car. So he set off to look for a house. After a while he saw one. As he approached he realised that the lights were off, and that the inhabitants were probably fast asleep in bed. He then got to thinking about the likely, no PROBABLE, response he would get if he knocked on the door:

"they'll probably be really annoyed if I wake the up" he thought to himself, "I mean, I would be."

But still, he needed the wrench. '

'They'll probably start shouting at me and calling me all sorts of names' he mused, 'I mean, what are they gonna think of me calling on them at this time of the night?'

As he got closer and closer to the house, these thoughts increased in severity until he was convinced that the people in the house would really let him have it if he knocked on the door.

Still he needed the wrench.

So he built up his courage and knocked on the door. Someone opened a window above, leaned out and asked "yes, can I help you?" to which the man responded:

"FINE! YOU CAN KEEP YOUR *!%*!! WRENCH"

Concurrently that path refines my Will and physical vehicle to endure physical trama and mental fatigue. For what is imminently going to happen to the planet, it just might keep me alive. Or not. But at least the BARE MINNIUM preperations have been met for me to continue, my path.

Physical trauma and mental fatigue probably mean that you are overworked in your job, and yes, you are still alive, thereby meeting the bare minimum requirements to continue existing in 3D. Six billion others are currently doing the same. Soon there may be much less.

Which is the point I have been trying to make, which you sidestep each time.

I can't side-step a point unless you actually make it, which you haven't until now, and if you make a point that is sacrosanct because it is tied up with your own self-worth, or more exactly, a lack of self-worth, then I have no choice but to sidestep it to avoid getting squashed by it because it needs both lanes of the highway, and then some.

I observed the routines of your household and saw something that might be detering your progress. It was also the reason I was invited, but I didn't think it appropriate to mention unless ASKED. I was waiting for the request but it never really happened. That is the nature of patterns (programs.) You don't realize you are imbedded in them until you are ripped from them. It usually is accompanied by considerable discomfort.

So who are you talking about here? You or us? In any case, as Laura said, you lacked the knowledge to be able to help anyone here, mainly because "helping" us was entangled with your own need for validation as a person. There was not much chance of any help therefore. But don't worry, the universe is well able to take care of itself.

I find the best way to help people change thier patterns is to be inspired by a new way of functioning. If they are, they ask.

It s unfortunate that you can't be inspired to change your own patterns. Then you might be in a position to really help. Those who would help others must first help themselves.

Laura's son asked, when we hung out a few times. He asked me the same question as Laura: How to make the physical vehicle function more efficiently to aid learning.

We went out and chopped wood together. My technique was different than his.

I was using just the axe and trying to combine awareness of movement to find the proper striking point to cut the log. It resulted in an outcome that sometimes succeeded, and other times not. Givin time, I would have learned more about how to make a more efficient strike.

Laura's son produced a wedge and suggested it would be a much faster way of chopping wood. He placed the wedge and struck with
the blunt side of the axe. He struck the wedge and, due to an improper angle, the wedge flew into the air coming dangerously close to striking him. The next time he managed to split the log.

My response was that both techniques were valid, but that mine burned more calories.

Which was the answer to his initial question. It's easy to cut wood with a wedge.

But you stand to work several principles at once if you do it with just the axe. You gain, strength, loose weight, calm and center the mind to act more precisley. Much more beneficial to understanding than having a pile of logs.

Again you attempt to assign deep significance to mundane things where no such significance exists. It seems to me that this is the result of an impoverished spiritual life, where, because there is so little richness in the inner life, such richness and depth must be assigned to external things. It is born of a deep need that is most likely the result of an upbringing at the hands of narcissists, where the rich inner life of the real I of the child was repeatedly denigrated and dismissed and the child instructed, on pain of withdrawal of love, that real value lay elsewhere, in the physical body or its workings.

So my 'stealing of energy' as you call it was a physical dialog in response to a direct request. And I'm curious what you mean by 'stealing of energy'. Did I make you feel sapped of energy or uncomfortable?

No, I meant your motor center is dominant and misuses the energy of the other centers. You think with the energy of the moving center, you feel with the energy of the moving center, while your intellectual and emotional centers are underdeveloped through this lack of correct use of energy

When I sat beside your fire, I could sense what you were thinking. You were judging me on assumptions. There was no dialog, nor would it have convinced you, I think, as you were already quite clear how you felt about me.

So you are psychic now? You knew exactly how we felt about you. Can you even see how self-important and bordering on the delusional this statement is? Can you see how unlikely it is that anyone, unless they are truly psychic, would ever get a correct understanding of what someone else thought of them without actually asking them?

You seem to have a great need to think that you really are a worthy human being, a need which usually points to a distinct and fundamental lack of belief in one's own self-worth. Such people often are very quick to accuse others of not valuing them enough.

Towards the end of my stay you mentioned that Laura's current physical state is a form of 'voluntary suffering'. I could not disagree more.

Does it not occur to you that you are in no position to agree or disagree on the real cause or reason of Laura's or anyone's life situation? Particularly when you have virtually no experience of living with and observing that person? Does it not strike you as extreme self-importance that you would deem yourself to be in such a position?

The signs are clear that she is under heavy attack as she is a very clear channel to 6D STO. I was invited to try and help with that progress. But the whole situation was closed and shut upon my arrival. I could not offer advice unless asked, and there questions never arose.

You were not "invited" to "help with the progress" of anything. YOU suggested that you could offer some ideas for exercises for Laura and others, but as Laura has said, you did not seem to know enough about the specific situation to help, despite what you claim.

Healing is very very hard. But it's possible.

Yes, and you are neglecting your own healing.

The Cassiopaean Material was directly responsible for a state of psychic 'awakening' that I am experiencing right now. What you shrugged off as 'just bleedthrough' has been becoming much more clear since I saw you all. I have regular encounters with both mirror work, OBE's, and meditation. Each layer I peel away brings me closer to that.

Well apparently you are on a different path than the rest of us. You are aware, I hope, that the esoteric tradition states that such phenomena are a "distraction" from the path?

Joe

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

So I find a path that inspires others to look in-ward, overcome fear, to be humble, and observe ones weaknesses is a worthy path.

Just a quick note - The above list can be said for anything if you really stretch it, osit. Imagine almost any profession, including the military itself saying the above. I'm sure you can see how most of the above applies if you really try to make it apply to any profession/activity. Clown, acrobat, lawyer, mountain climber, sky diver, professional athlete, private investigator, doctor, psychologist, etc. There are elements of the above in each of these professions, which can even include being a Ninja, an assassin, a CIA spy, an army veteran, a gladiator, a standup comedian, an actor, etc. Any of those people can describe their profession like you did and to a large degree can be "right" in a certain sense if you really think about it.

But what good is it that so many different fields, professions, and activities have the potential to inspire and make people reflect and fight their fears etc - I don't see how that is reflected in the world. These professions have existed for hundreds and thousands of years, and during that entire time humanity has been enslaved and continues to be enslaved, and people who go to the circus do not come out "enlightened" in any way shape or form, people who see standup comedy or go to court or are fans of sports or join the military etc do not become "enlightened", nothing ever changes.

And I mean no offense or disrespect for your life and chosen profession, but the phrase "bread and circuses" always had a negative connotation and for a good reason, where circus is an agent of distraction for the populace, something that keeps them asleep and their senses "entertained" so that the do not really ever wake up or see what is truly going on around them, see the terror if their situation. Not that circus is inherently bad or anything, but like other forms of entertainment that we currently have, the PTB have judged its affect on humanity more accurately than the very participants in such activities. Actors say the same thing about their art, about how they inspire inner reflection and want to "give a message" to mankind and all that, and at the end of the day, movies and theatre and TV is just another major distraction that does the exact opposite of what it convinces itself it should be doing. It's no wonder that the PTB know us better than we know ourselves.

So what you said above sounds to me like self-calming, something that many people say about their chosen professions to rationalize it as something much more than it really is, and that it has a much greater affect on others than it really does. Maybe the potential for all of the above IS there, but that potential exists in MANY professions, and yet, looking at the world, the potential is simply not actualized, is not nearly as effective or beneficial as it presents itself to be or claims to be.

In fact, even Jerry Springer can make that claim about his show - show real human pain, real suffering, real mistakes, real stupidity, and makes the viewers reflect on their own lives and try to "fix" them so they do not end up in such situations. So Jerry Springer is actually a very beneficial education show that is supposed to be improving our society and making people learn from the mistakes of others, and reflect upon the stupidity and ignorance of mankind as all the programs and emotional blindness of the participants of the show are exhibited over and over. And yet, somehow, other than being potentially a really distorted advertising campaign for the show, all those beneficial affects for society from Jerry Springer are nonsense. But if you really stretch your mind you could almost fit that square peg in that round hole and almost be convinced that it makes some sort of convoluted sense, but seeing the objective affects and seeing the objective reality instantly proves otherwise.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Again, I apologize. I sumbitted my post without refreshing/updating the thread & reading the new posts. It's because I load what I'm going to read & sign off, reading offline... and then forget to refresh.

But, what Ark said, the example he gave certainly has a point. However at the point you saw the Y in the road, you would see the tree as well and know that continuing to drive straight (i.e. no action) would be the MOST "wrong action." And the other points by Joe & Laura are certainly true too. It is however, as implied by them and the C's, and as ScioAgapeOmnis said, not necessary to learn painfully if you can learn without pain. I certainly agree that we tend to, or at least can, learn a whole lot from our mistakes, perhaps more than not making a mistake because if we are intent on learning rather than making it seem to us and others that we never make mistakes, we tend to remember the lesson of the mistake because we have "paid more" for the lesson than we could have. But we get just as much pain and suffering as we need to finally learn the lesson at hand if we can't learn it with no pain at all, or so I think.

 

[Guest]

Joe: " The situation was more along the lines of you contacting Laura and not-so-subtly suggesting that you could "help" in some way, to which she naturally responded that if you are in the area sometime that you could come and visit. To suggest that you got an unsolicited email from Laura one day where she said "come to France and help 'whip me back into shape' is a significant misrepresentation, but you are only lying to yourself, not to us."


GC: If I wasn't clear before, I will now. I contacted Laura via email after reading her website to thank her for the information as I found it mind blowing. We corresponded now and again (I never saved the emails.) and the subject of my profession came up. She mentioned some of her physical ailments and I mentioned that I might be able to help as keeping the body in optimal condition is a matter of survival for me. I also mentioned that I would like to sit in on one of the C's sessions. Her reply was, I believe "Well, why don't you just come by for a visit.".
I had some time avalable and I flew into Lion to meet her.
The fact of the matter was that I WAS invited and I don't think Laura would have unless she thought I could somehow help.
It's really hard to exchange a dialog with people who are trying to belittle you like a child. Yes, I'm sure your response to that Joe would be 'well, stop ACTING like a child.'.
If you notice, most of your rsponses are ripe with insults. Even if you were interested in helping me 'see' how these programs are destroying me, you might want to use a better method. When you insult people they are too busy dealing with your negative energy to consider what your saying.
My only regret in this whole encounter was my initial 'manipulation' of you in response to your post. I made a mistake, as I should have approached Laura about this a long time ago. For a long time, I forgot about it, so assuming I have been 'holding a grudge' is just another attempt to make me look like an ignoramus. It's a classic technique of 'Gurdies'. You are trying to 'break me' by insulting me and insisting that who and what I am is nothing. If I roll over, then you can 'rebuild me'.
You have not convinced me that the philosophy that you are studying is worth while. Just as you don't believe in the metaphysical experiences I have had, I can hardly believe in the fruits of your seeking.
Gurdjieff died Joe, he died of alcohol related health problems. If his philosophy was sound, had he really seen into who and what he was, would he not have prolonged his life?
In his early days, he searched for truth and I believe he really did find a group in the dessert that taught him profound insights. But he didn't stay long enough, or though he had it and then left to try and spread it. It is an incomplete system.

Laura wrote:

"That was certainly part of it. Since Greycat had been invited for a particular reason, the fact that he kept dancing around and offering nothing of substance was interesting to observe. I will admit that, considering the circumstances (I have a folder of email exchanges that lay out clearly what was wanted and expected), it never occurred to me that GC was waiting for me to fall on my knees and beg. (Exaggeration, but you get the idea.)"


GC: No Laura, I was never expecting you to beg.
I'd like to think I was a polite guest. I offered to do chores, by which I could both help and get some fresh air. I did my dishes, didn't make waves, read some books and generally just watched. Heck, I brought Holy Grail Ale!
I was also exhausted from an groin pull several weeks earlier, that left me barely able to walk as well as waking up in the middle of the night 48 hours before to see a giant ehteric cuttlefish with a tentacle attached to my chest sucking my vitals. Yes yes, I know you don't believe me. The first time I saw it, I didn't either. The tenth time I did.

Firstly I had to observe your lifestyle habits for several days before I could even consider what advice to give. I had to see if you were willing to make the changes. Then I had to consider if you would believe that it would work. If I would have ordered you to do things, you might have done them half heartedly. I didn't feel I had the right to.
So yes, I was waiting for you to admit that there might be a problem with you diet and levels of activity.
The thing I REALLY didn't want to do was prescribe something that might be too much for you therby aggervating your conditions. I was being careful and considerate at the same time nursing my own wounds, enjoying your fire, and generally just trying to hang out.

Honestly, your physical condition was pretty bad. I could see that the only way to change it would be to break alot of habits you had and the only way to do that is if you really wanted to. My advice would have been useless had I givin it. You never would have followed it long enough to see the changes. I have said before and I will say it again, the initial result of major lifestyle changes is discomfort. This usually convinces people that it's not working as there is MORE discomfort. The only way to follow through would be if you REALLY wanted to change. And I couldn't see if that were right. I talked to your son on the same matter. I told him there were no easy answers. Change your habits, be patient and it will bear fruit.
There was also the point to consider that there may be no help for you. That you were under constant STS attack and that no amount to allievate your ailments would work.
Though if you recall, I DID give you some advice. I told you to drink more water. In 48 hours I saw you drink soda and alcohol, but never water. You'd be amazed what simple hydration will do for you.
Laura, you do realize that your daughter was drinking a can of DIET soda? I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that, as SOTT regularly posts articles about aspertame.

Joe: "It is interesting that you chose to respond with defensiveness rather than thinking about what I said to you. It is somewhat of a classic self-calming maneuver for someone to respond to something that someone sees in us by pointing out that "well, we all have these problems. If we all have these problems, then "there is no reason to highlight mine."

I fail to see how admitting that I also run my own programs is being defensive. I wrote: "We are all loaded with programs. There is no end to that assumption. What is to say you aren't running just different programs? I have never denied that I run programs. You just observe the program and eventually it falls away, to be replaced by a more effiecient program that you need to disect to reach a higher understanding"

Joe: "No, this is self-importance. The situation was more along the lines of you contacting Laura and not-so-subtly suggesting that you could "help" in some way, to which she naturally responded that if you are in the area sometime that you could come and visit. "

I'm repeating myself, but to answer that Joe, upon viewing the situation I decided that there was no way to 'sum up' an accurate way for Laura to easily alievate her physical ailments. It would take alot of changes in her lifestyle and I'm not a drill sergent.
There was a brief moment when we breached the subject and I could see the pain on Laura's face about her state. THAT was the point where we could have communicated it. But just at that moment, her son came in and asked if I wanted to go chop wood. I should have had him bide a moment and had the talk then.

Joe: "I have seen into the mind and spirit" is a rather grandiose statement, although it is not unusual from someone who can so seamlessly lie to himself. As for being "inspired to understand yourself through physical experience": yeah, you and about 6 billion others. "

GC: Let's do some C's quotes first. Session 020226: " A: Suffering activates neuro-chemicals which turn on DNA receptors. "

There is a reason that physical hardship is part of most spiritual practices (Including some of Gurdjueff's exercises I might add. He should have drank less and made better use of them.). I would not make the statement unless it has happened to me consistantly enough to confirm that it aids in both concentration and will. These aspect will greatly inhance ones ability to have metaphysical experiences much like both the C's sessions and the Ra material suggest.

Joe: "It is not surprising that you want to defend your profession, you are identified with it, it is you, it is all you have, so you must pump it up to preserve your own self-importance, self-calming and illusions."

GC: I am not defending my profession. Honestly, I can't wait for the world to decend into chaos so I can leave it. I am stating that it has it's merits to aid in meditation and viewing of the self so that you can seek further into the void of the self, which is part of everything.


Joe: "Excuse me for saying, but this is no t exactly "esoteric" work. Not that it is not laudable, but you seem to have a great need to think that you really are a worthy human being, a need which usually points a distinct and fundamental lack of belief in one's own self-worth. Such people often are very quick to accuse others of not valuing them enough."

GC: Worthy of? I don't get it. Much along the lines of Ark saying he is an award winning physicist, I am stating that when I say I know something about how to properly maintain the physical vehicle due it survival, I am stating just that.

Joe: "A clown is a man (or woman) who does silly things to make people laugh. Again you are attempting to ascribe a deeper significance to the general area of your profession than actually exists, while neglecting to give enough consideration to the reasons WHY you do this. You are not approaching the crux of the matter. You are avoiding it."

GC: Wow Joe, and I suppose picasso's stuff was all just squiggly lines as well. I mean, I know your Irish, and the circus scene there is still pretty backward (I worked there for six months, so I can say that.) but you can't tell me lads like Charlie Chaplin weren't using humor to insert very profound truths about the state of the world. Bill Hicks was a clown. Jon Stuart is a clown. Humor is very powerful, Joe, and it's sad to see you belittle both it and me. It makes you seem very cold.

Joe: "So who are you talking about here? You or us? In any case, as Laura said, you lacked the knowledge to be able to help anyone here, mainly because "helping" us was entangled with your own need for validation as a person. There was not much chance of any help therefore. But don't worry, the universe is well able to take care of itself. "


GC: No, I made mistakes at the same time the person I was willing to help wasn't willing to change. If she WAS she would have already. It was quite an endeavor to attempt, loosing that much weight is not easy. Especially for a smoker. And it's sad to see how an offer for a mutual exchange of insight has gone so terribly wrong.


Joe: "Again you attempt to assign deep significance to mundane things where no such significance exists. It seems to me that this is the result of an impoverished spiritual life, where, because there is so little richness in the inner life, such richness and depth must be assigned to external things. It is born of a deep need that is most likely the result of an upbringing at the hands of narcissists, where the rich inner life of the real I of the child was repeatedly denigrated and dismissed and the child instructed, on pain of withdrawal of love, that real value lay elsewhere, in the physical body or its workings. "

Mundane...so very sad Joe that you can belittle someone so. I suppose I could assigne the same phrase for a guy who surfs the internet all day, chain smokes, and waits for the end of the world. I don't believe this is the truth Joe, as I have stated many times I respect SOTT. Heck, I have donated several times (and never recieved a thank you email, which I have to admit I considered a bit rude.).
We are all spiritually impovereshed Joe. This is 3D STS. It was squeezed from our culture long ago.
And it's also sad you can't see the merit that physical exercise could have aided Laura's son. He was terribly overweight. He was falling for the classic blunder of staying up all night on the computer. I recall getting up to go to the toilet and seeing him munching on a big bowl of cereal at 3 am. Consuming large amounts of carbohydrates at night when your metabolism is slowest is a sure way to keep that weight on. It's also a classic reaction to depression.
It's like the Subway guy Joe. Ever heard of him? Some powerfully overweight guy who decided he was going to loose it all. So each day he walked to subway, several miles from his house, and ate a sandwhich or salad for each meal. He lost all his excess weight and Subway made a poster boy out of him. Of course it had little to do with Subway sandwhichs. It was his desire to change, his physical exertion each day to get to the store and the sensableness of eating just one instead of three sandwhiches.
Just like I said. No easy answers. Just the will to do it.


Joe: "So you are psychic now? You knew exactly how we felt about you. Can you even see how self-important and bordering on the delusional this statement is? Can you see how unlikely it is that anyone, unless they are truly psychic, would ever get a correct understanding of what someone else thought of them without actually asking them?"


GC: We are all alot more 'psychic' than we think we are. And it's no small chore to ready body posture, eye contact, and general mood when interacting with somone. Of course there is a whole world of sensing emotions that I can't say I don't use. It's less with being psychic and just being aware.
Again you are trying to peg me with a degrading term. Like I'm some sort of Snake Oil Salesman. It's really no way to build my confidence that your viewpoint is anything other than just negative.

Joe: "You seem to have a great need to think that you really are a worthy human being, a need which usually points to a distinct and fundamental lack of belief in one's own self-worth. Such people often are very quick to accuse others of not valuing them enough."

GC: I'm as worthy as anyone else. And I know that I don't use negative statements to belittle people so that they can try to understand what I am trying to relate. It reminds me of Stuart Wilde's 'calling out the ego', which gives him permission to provoke people into anger.


Joe: "Well apparently you are on a different path than the rest of us. You are aware, I hope, that the esoteric tradition states that such phenomena are a "distraction" from the path?"

Hogwosh. Esoteric traditions that are allowed to flourish on this planet are there because they are detours.
All true teachings were hidden years ago. It's up to us to put the pieces together and each one of us is different.
It's one of the reasons I put written knowledge on the back burner. I DO use it, but it can easily lead one astray. This has been my main point I have been trying to get across from the beginning.

It's quite clear that we have extreme differences in opinion on may points of existence Joe.
Some points I would like to clarify. I have always avoided the 'love and light' crowd. It is dangerous disinformation.
Also, I am in agreement with the 'fleeing from the darkness within' mumbo jumbo. It's another trap.
Of all the negative entities I have encountered, the more I fought them, the more drained I became. The only time I have ever seemed to nullify an attack was to look directly at them without fear. To look at them and only try to know what they are. Being STS, an exchange of knowledge would weaken them, so they depart.
And I never said I was a healer. I'm not. I may have giving people advice for physical ailments and I do alot of coaching in my profession but I never once stated that I had any metaphysical capacity to heal.

 

[Nathan]

Didn't take long for GreyCat to move from being defensive to dishing out nasty personal attacks.

 

[anart]

No surprise at all - he is so encapsulated in his self-impressed bubble that he will never See what is really going on. After all, this guy GreyCat even knows what Gurdjieff did and did not do - and what mistakes he made ( ) . GrayCat is in love with his physical body; his motor center; in love with himself. That is his god. He also has proven to be incapable of any sort of genuine self-reflection - when a person believes they are the best thing since sliced bread, it's very hard for them to learn anything at all. As I said before, his cup is full. Not only that, but he has proven, yet again, that he has not a clue - about anything - he's not even wrong. He is, however, angry at having his self-importance ruffled - so he is striking out in as personal, degrading and hurtful way he can come up with. What a charmer this guy is.

 

[Laura]

" The situation was more along the lines of you contacting Laura and not-so-subtly suggesting that you could "help" in some way, to which she naturally responded that if you are in the area sometime that you could come and visit. To suggest that you got an unsolicited email from Laura one day where she said "come to France and help 'whip me back into shape' is a significant misrepresentation, but you are only lying to yourself, not to us."

GC: If I wasn't clear before, I will now. I contacted Laura via email after reading her website to thank her for the information as I found it mind blowing. We corresponded now and again (I never saved the emails.) and the subject of my profession came up. She mentioned some of her physical ailments and I mentioned that I might be able to help as keeping the body in optimal condition is a matter of survival for me. I also mentioned that I would like to sit in on one of the C's sessions. Her reply was, I believe "Well, why don't you just come by for a visit."
I had some time avalable and I flew into Lion to meet her.

Well, I did save the entire exchange and it wasn't quite like that. The correspondence began in Dec. of 2003. Your initial concern was to join QFS. There were several exchanges about this during January and February of 2004. In March, you wrote:

> I've been dong ALOT of work with the information you've given me. I will soon
> send my application to the QPS in hopes of networking this information.
> Honestly, what I would REALLY like is to sit in on a secession with the C's, (I
> travel extensivly in France to work and visit friends.) if I can be so bold to
> make such a statement (whoops, I just did!).

To which I responded politely:

Next time you are in the neighborhood, let me know and we'll have a nice visit.

That was, as most people would understand, just being polite. As it turned out, the QFS application did not actually arrive until a year later. (A few intermittant emails during that time.) Then, in late February of 2005, you wrote:

My name is ****** and I am a professional acrobat trained in Dance and
Acrobatics at one of the premiere Circus schools in the world. I started that
task after leaving my stifling university studies in Astrophysics.

My job is to utilize high levels of flexibility and strength to perform
physically amazing feats of balance. My coach often joked that when you stand
on one hand, you are holding up the world. It's a cute coincidence that I'm
named *****, and that the 'kids at school would say *****'s a girls name.'. I
don't know what the correlation is, but I could harbor a guess that they are
clues to follow a direction. In my experiments it has been the daily spinning
that seems to give an excellent reference point for finding your center.

I believe that a high technical level of anatomy and human movement could
possibly help you in your studies and I have 15 years experience in that field.

Where does dance fit into all this? The 'Circle People' danced in stone
circles and came in contact with higher density beings.

The world is heading towards utter chaos and turmoil, this much we can be
certain of. I came to Europe for a variety of reasons. They have not yet
forgotten the last two world wars. Tectonic Plate wise it is far enough from
major collision points. People still traditionally gather in circles to watch
people do amazing things with their bodies (which gives me a means of making a
living. Cirque, Circo, Circus, Circle...). [...]

I speak fluent French, can do anything from wash dishes, repairs on your
home, ect... basically I'm still trying to corner you for that visit you
offered in one of your first emails so I can sit in on a session with the C's
so I can get to the bottom of who I am and what my purpose is.[...]

This was a very lengthy email and sounded rather desperate in parts, so I decided that I could do something that I don't often do which is actually invite someone to visit that was not well known to me. In retrospect, reading over the exchange, with the knowledge I now have, it is obvious that this is exactly what the emails were designed to do: to persuade me to allow someone into my space who otherwise would never be invited. I responded:

Well, tell us when you can get away for a visit.

One thing that does come to mind (only one of many nifty ideas about net-
working) is that I am pretty rapidly deteriorating physically so it might
not be a bad thing to figure some plan to bring me back to full function...
my own moving center is rather strong as well... it does NOT want to do
anything except fuel my fingers for typing...

I will point out that you do not even remember the city you flew to...

But, none of that is really relevant. I just want you to be aware that, as a writer, I keep every scrap of paper, every email, every receipt, every calendar with doodles on it, and have done so for my entire life, so that if I don't remember directly, (which I usually do), I have a lot of data to consult and I can pretty well tell you what I was doing at any given time or place for literally years and years.

The fact of the matter was that I WAS invited and I don't think Laura would have unless she thought I could somehow help.

I hope that the above has disabused you of that notion. You were invited because you basically invited yourself and put on a lot of pressure. You were not invited because I thought you could help me, I was just offering the suggestion because you seemed so desperate to DO something and I was trying to be polite by suggesting something that was in your field that you might do without too much trouble.

It's really hard to exchange a dialog with people who are trying to belittle you like a child. Yes, I'm sure your response to that Joe would be 'well, stop ACTING like a child.'.

If you notice, most of your rsponses are ripe with insults. Even if you were interested in helping me 'see' how these programs are destroying me, you might want to use a better method. When you insult people they are too busy dealing with your negative energy to consider what your saying.

Joe is not belittling or insulting you, if you will notice. He is trying to shock you into thinking with your intellect instead of your moving center.

My only regret in this whole encounter was my initial 'manipulation' of you in response to your post. I made a mistake, as I should have approached Laura about this a long time ago.

Certainly. But you didn't. You chose a different way. Re-reading your emails and my hurried responses to them (keeping in mind that I get literally hundreds a day), it seems that you read an awful lot into things that simply wasn't there. In short, you did here on the forum exactly what you did via those emails: presented a false image, concealed your true self, and then, when the self-importance maneuvers didn't work, started a dispute so you could get in your digs.

For a long time, I forgot about it, so assuming I have been 'holding a grudge' is just another attempt to make me look like an ignoramus. It's a classic technique of 'Gurdies'. You are trying to 'break me' by insulting me and insisting that who and what I am is nothing. If I roll over, then you can 'rebuild me'.

You have no understanding of the work whatsoever. Nevertheless, since you have brought this up, it rather contradicts your accusations that you are being "belittled" and "treated like a child" and so on.

You have not convinced me that the philosophy that you are studying is worth while. Just as you don't believe in the metaphysical experiences I have had, I can hardly believe in the fruits of your seeking.

Nobody is trying to convince you of anything. You, on the other hand, seem to desperately need some kind of validation from us; need to convince us that YOU are right! What we realized immediately when you visited us was that you are simply on a different path and that was fine so go for it and have the courtesy to allow us to follow our path as well without manipulations, games, grudges, need for validation, or whatever it is you are after.

The fact is, there is really not even any point in this discussion since, as I just noted, you are on a completely different path and no one has told you that it is not the right one for you. No one has interfered with you. No one has written you lengthy emails to try to convince you to give time and energy to validate what we are doing. No one has gone on your forum "undercover," waiting for an opportunity to strike like a snake in the grass. In fact, all we did was submit to your demands for a visit, inviting you (under pressure) and being polite for the duration of the visit, which was undoubtedly unsatisfactory on both sides, and then, after you were gone, just considering that it was a lesson to not be fooled again by lengthy emails that profess knowledge and advancement where none actually exists. The experience helped us to refine our reading instruments, and for that we are thankful.

Gurdjieff died Joe, he died of alcohol related health problems.

Yes, Gurdjieff died of liver cancer at the age of about 83. Nothing terribly unusual about that. It's an advanced age to die.

If his philosophy was sound, had he really seen into who and what he was, would he not have prolonged his life?

Say WHAT?! "Prolong his life"???!!! Have you lost your marbles? Who, in their right mind, would want to prolong their life on this planet of lies???!!!

More than that, Gurdjieff lived his life and, as far as is possible in this sea of lies, managed to find ways to enjoy it. There aren't many, you know.

In his early days, he searched for truth and I believe he really did find a group in the dessert that taught him profound insights. But he didn't stay long enough, or though he had it and then left to try and spread it. It is an incomplete system.

Yes, it is an incomplete system, but not for the reason you suggest. It is incomplete because those who complete it don't come back to share it as he did. It was a sacrifice for him to do that, and don't ever forget it. And it is the same for me. I could very easily devote myself to just my own evolution and transition, but because I love my children, my friends, and so many others, I have chosen, as a duty, as a form of conscious suffering to NOT do that.

"That was certainly part of it. Since Greycat had been invited for a particular reason, the fact that he kept dancing around and offering nothing of substance was interesting to observe. I will admit that, considering the circumstances (I have a folder of email exchanges that lay out clearly what was wanted and expected), it never occurred to me that GC was waiting for me to fall on my knees and beg. (Exaggeration, but you get the idea.)"

No Laura, I was never expecting you to beg.

I'd like to think I was a polite guest. I offered to do chores, by which I could both help and get some fresh air. I did my dishes, didn't make waves, read some books and generally just watched. Heck, I brought Holy Grail Ale!

I was also exhausted from an groin pull several weeks earlier, that left me barely able to walk as well as waking up in the middle of the night 48 hours before to see a giant ehteric cuttlefish with a tentacle attached to my chest sucking my vitals. Yes yes, I know you don't believe me. The first time I saw it, I didn't either. The tenth time I did.

Actually, I DID believe you. And that was the point. What kind individual experiences stuff like that? Especially when they are presenting themselves as capable of helping ME??? Am I supposed to be guided by someone who cannot even achieve freedom from such attacks?

Firstly I had to observe your lifestyle habits for several days before I could even consider what advice to give. I had to see if you were willing to make the changes. Then I had to consider if you would believe that it would work. If I would have ordered you to do things, you might have done them half heartedly. I didn't feel I had the right to.

It would have been interesting to see that tried!

So yes, I was waiting for you to admit that there might be a problem with you diet and levels of activity.

I think I made that pretty clear in the email I wrote to you quoted above. Since it had already been stated, your "waiting for me to admit" something that, as far as I was concerned, was already on the table, seems disingenuous at best.

The thing I REALLY didn't want to do was prescribe something that might be too much for you therby aggervating your conditions. I was being careful and considerate at the same time nursing my own wounds, enjoying your fire, and generally just trying to hang out.

And we were perfectly happy for you to just hang out until the allotted time was up after hearing all your stories about night demons, attacks and so on.

Honestly, your physical condition was pretty bad. I could see that the only way to change it would be to break alot of habits you had and the only way to do that is if you really wanted to.

Of course. And the main habit I have is work: 24/7. Everything I do is geared to support THAT and to not interfere with it or take too much time away from it.

My advice would have been useless had I givin it. You never would have followed it long enough to see the changes. I have said before and I will say it again, the initial result of major lifestyle changes is discomfort. This usually convinces people that it's not working as there is MORE discomfort. The only way to follow through would be if you REALLY wanted to change. And I couldn't see if that were right. I talked to your son on the same matter. I told him there were no easy answers. Change your habits, be patient and it will bear fruit.

We know all that. However, as I mentioned then, what I need is something clever that I can do in a minimum of time that gives maximum benefits, that doesn't aggravate my injuries, and does NOT interfere with my work.

Tall order? Sure. But you claimed to be the expert.

Only after you arrived, I didn't hear much in the way of anything that I couldn't get from Oprah Winfrey.

I'm not an acrobat, I'm not going to be an acrobat, I have suffered many, many injuries because when I was young I thought I was superwoman and could do anything. I had five children, and two childbirth experiences nearly killed me; one of them left me bedridden for half a year and I have never stopped suffering from constant, intractable pain as a result. I can no longer take pain medication because I took so much for so many years that my liver won't handle it anymore. And I made all of these things pretty clear. And I also made it pretty clear that, when a person such as myself, gives so much to my particular kind of work, there isn't much left to give to anything else and whatever I do, I am not going to give up the few things that I DO enjoy that I CAN enjoy. There is precious little. And frankly, the idea of giving up the few things that I do enjoy to gain a few years on this god-forsaken planet just doesn't fly for me.

There was also the point to consider that there may be no help for you. That you were under constant STS attack and that no amount to allievate your ailments would work.

That also is an element that I contend with. And as noted above, I deal with it. At least I don't have giant cuttle-fish sucking my brains out at night. And what I said I needed was something more than the usual "advice." And you gave the impression over a series of emails that you could offer such information.

Though if you recall, I DID give you some advice. I told you to drink more water. In 48 hours I saw you drink soda and alcohol, but never water. You'd be amazed what simple hydration will do for you.

I should note that, after the initial meeting and realizing that the person behind the emails was nothing like the person that the emails conveyed, I spent very little time with you; only as much as was necessary to be polite. And you don't see me in my office working, either. I keep a five liter bottle of distilled water by my desk and usually drink a whole one every day. So your advice to "drink more water" came across as rather silly, to say the least.

Also, we generally do not drink soda, we only have it in the house when we have guests in case they want it. You didn't, so the kids thought it was great that they could drink it instead.

Laura, you do realize that your daughter was drinking a can of DIET soda? I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that, as SOTT regularly posts articles about aspertame.

Of course I realize it. And I certainly try to get the kids to read SOTT, but they have their own wills, their own lives, and their own lessons. It's not my job to tell them what to do. I can certainly offer advice and suggestions, but if they don't choose to take it, I'm not going to make them feel like crap about it. You will be happy to know that finally, after a few more articles on the subject, they finally DID think that maybe it wasn't such a good idea. But then, it's really tough on kids who want to hang with their friends and be accepted and be restricted to water... since none of them are supposed to have sugar since they inherited the insulin problem.

The situation was more along the lines of you contacting Laura and not-so-subtly suggesting that you could "help" in some way, to which she naturally responded that if you are in the area sometime that you could come and visit. "

I'm repeating myself, but to answer that Joe, upon viewing the situation I decided that there was no way to 'sum up' an accurate way for Laura to easily alievate her physical ailments. It would take alot of changes in her lifestyle and I'm not a drill sergent.

And so, the visit did not produce what was hoped for on either side, did it? You were not the person you presented yourself in your emails, and I did not produce a Cs session for you. In fact, after meeting you and conversing with you for awhile, that was a deliberate decision.

"I have seen into the mind and spirit" is a rather grandiose statement, although it is not unusual from someone who can so seamlessly lie to himself. As for being "inspired to understand yourself through physical experience": yeah, you and about 6 billion others. "

Let's do some C's quotes first. Session 020226: " A: Suffering activates neuro-chemicals which turn on DNA receptors. "

I would like to note that the reference is to psychological suffering, not physical suffering. But then, as Gurdjieff points out, physical suffering can also crystallize something:

"Crystallization is possible on any foundation. Take for example a brigand,
a really good, genuine brigand. I knew such brigands in the Caucasus. He
will stand with a rifle behind a stone by the roadside for eight hours
without stirring. Could you do this? All the time, mind you, a struggle is
going on in him. He is thirsty and hot, and flies are biting him; but he
stands still. Another is a monk; he is afraid of the devil; all night long
he beats his head on the floor and prays. Thus crystallization is achieved.
In such ways people can generate in themselves an enormous inner strength;
they can endure torture; they can get what they want. This means that there
is now in them something solid, something permanent. Such people can become
immortal. But what is the good of it? A man of this kind becomes an
'immortal thing,' although a certain amount of consciousness is sometimes
preserved in him. But even this, it must be remembered, occurs very
rarely."

There is a reason that physical hardship is part of most spiritual practices (Including some of Gurdjueff's exercises I might add. He should have drank less and made better use of them.).

Gurdjieff's physical exercises had an entirely different objective. And frankly, I think he drank exactly the right amount for him. It was HIS life, after all. And he lived it richly and productively right up to the end. He spent very little time ill, and, as his doctor said, he "died like a king" in full consciousness.

I notice that you are real liberal with the critiques and they all center around your need to get others to validate you and your way, your choices, for some reason.

I would not make the statement unless it has happened to me consistantly enough to confirm that it aids in both concentration and will.

Is that why you have demons sucking energy out of you? Is that why you still feel some sort of emptiness so that it drives you to seek validation here? If what you are doing is so fulfilling and so right, why don't you create a website and promote your work, your way, what you have learned, what you do? And certainly you will find people who resonate to it.

These aspect will greatly inhance ones ability to have metaphysical experiences much like both the C's sessions and the Ra material suggest.

Please quote to me one place where the Cs or Ra talk about deliberately "having metaphysical experiences" as a goal? Sorry, but that's a distraction. I'm not interested in having metaphysical experiences. I'm interested in helping other people to learn about those things that are important in this density in order to graduate to the next.

"It is not surprising that you want to defend your profession, you are identified with it, it is you, it is all you have, so you must pump it up to preserve your own self-importance, self-calming and illusions."

I am not defending my profession. Honestly, I can't wait for the world to decend into chaos so I can leave it. I am stating that it has it's merits to aid in meditation and viewing of the self so that you can seek further into the void of the self, which is part of everything.

Excellent. Like I said, why don't you create a website and promote your work, your way, what you have learned, what you do? And certainly you will find people who resonate to it. I just don't happen to, and I don't have to.

"Excuse me for saying, but this is no t exactly "esoteric" work. Not that it is not laudable, but you seem to have a great need to think that you really are a worthy human being, a need which usually points a distinct and fundamental lack of belief in one's own self-worth. Such people often are very quick to accuse others of not valuing them enough."

Worthy of? I don't get it. Much along the lines of Ark saying he is an award winning physicist, I am stating that when I say I know something about how to properly maintain the physical vehicle due it survival, I am stating just that.

For survival? Yet you just said: "I can't wait for the world to decend into chaos so I can leave it." Is that a bit of a contradiction?

Nevertheless, as I said above: why don't you create a website and promote your work, your way, what you have learned, what you do? And certainly you will find people who resonate to it. I just don't happen to, and I don't have to.

"A clown is a man (or woman) who does silly things to make people laugh. Again you are attempting to ascribe a deeper significance to the general area of your profession than actually exists, while neglecting to give enough consideration to the reasons WHY you do this. You are not approaching the crux of the matter. You are avoiding it."

Wow Joe, and I suppose picasso's stuff was all just squiggly lines as well.

Well, now that you mention it, yeah. Don't like Picasso, never did. Even though he was quite capable of producing objective art, he chose not to.

I mean, I know your Irish, and the circus scene there is still pretty backward (I worked there for six months, so I can say that.) but you can't tell me lads like Charlie Chaplin weren't using humor to insert very profound truths about the state of the world. Bill Hicks was a clown. Jon Stuart is a clown. Humor is very powerful, Joe, and it's sad to see you belittle both it and me. It makes you seem very cold.

You are missing the point. Joe wasn't belittling clowns, he was pointing out that perhaps you are trying to find too much "metaphysics" in something where there isn't that much. Or, at least, if it is there, it isn't what you are talking about.

Yes, humor is very powerful and we have been known to joke around a bit, but try to keep some perspective. Joe is not belittling clowns or you. He is trying to draw your attention to an important point that seems to be the crux of the whole matter: your apparent need to seek validation from us, which includes us accepting your way as the right way, or one we would want to incorporate and promote. That isn't the case and my best advice to you is: why don't you create a website and promote your work, your way, what you have learned, what you do? And certainly you will find people who resonate to it. I just don't happen to, and I don't have to.

"So who are you talking about here? You or us? In any case, as Laura said, you lacked the knowledge to be able to help anyone here, mainly because "helping" us was entangled with your own need for validation as a person. There was not much chance of any help therefore. But don't worry, the universe is well able to take care of itself. "

No, I made mistakes at the same time the person I was willing to help wasn't willing to change. If she WAS she would have already. It was quite an endeavor to attempt, loosing that much weight is not easy. Especially for a smoker. And it's sad to see how an offer for a mutual exchange of insight has gone so terribly wrong.

See all of the above. And since you are so fond of quoting the Cs, how about this one:

Q: Now, I have
forgotten to ask this the past couple of times... I have
such a screwy metabolism. Now, I know that you once told
me that my thyroid had been tampered with from other
densities in an effort to dissuade me or prevent me from
doing my work. The result of this is that I can go for
days and eat almost nothing, and still gain weight! Why?

A: Because you have changed your third density frequency.

Q: What am I supposed to do now? Just stop eating
altogether?

A: Lost. Altered your chosen balancing mechanism.

Q: What altered my chosen balancing mechanism?

A: First: what is your chosen balancing mechanism?

Q: Do you mean something physical in my body?

A: Close.

Q: I don't know. Going to the gym?

A: No.

Q: Something about the way I work or function?

A: No. Something you, or one, takes into the body.

Q: Thyroid pills?

A: This substance raises hemoglobin levels.

Q: What?! I quit smoking?!

A: Yes.

Q: How can smoking be a balancing mechanism?

A: Speeds up metabolism, thus allowing greater food intake.

Q: Well, all it did for me was allow me to eat at all! I
guess that now I will have to quit eating completely
forever!

A: Or bring nicotine back.

Q: Well, that's not gonna happen! Isn't there something else
that would work?

A: No.

Q: So, you are saying that nicotine is actually good for me?

A: Yes. Without it, you will remain with weight problems,
because you will not be able to lower food intake enough
to compensate. Why do you think you had the inkling to
start smoking in the first place?

Q: Well, I just was going along with my friends, I thought.

A: No.

Q: What other things does nicotine do?

A: Raises defences.

Q: What kind?

A: Immunological.

Q: Anything else?

A: Excites neurotransmitters. You require less sleep.

Q: Is this true for everyone?

A: No.

Q: (A) How much nicotine is necessary?

A: 100 mg per day.

Q: (A) Can it be in pill form?

A: Cigarettes infuse it to brain tissues most effectively.

Q: Well, I am certainly relieved! Now I know that I do not
have a 'smoking demon' possessing me! I was really
getting worried!

A: Those who fit this profile find it nearly impossible to
"quit" completely.

Q: So, there are people who are actually benefitted by
smoking?

A: Genetics will offer proof of this.

Q: You mean that one can see changes in DNA before and after
smoking?

A: Close...

Q: Is that also why I have been having more stomach problems
than usual?

A: Yes.

Q: Well, I always noticed that smoking could settle my
stomach. It also stimulated my bowels...

A: (A) What is serious here is the number. How many
milligrams... (L) How many cigarettes does the number
translate into?

A: 20.

Q: Well, I never smoked that much! Only about 15...

A: No.

Q: Well, I told myself 15!

A: It was not.

Q: Ark doesn't need to smoke, does he?

A: No. He does not fit the profile. He actually had to
"work" to start smoking.

Q: (L) Did you? (A) Yeah, probably. (L) Well, then why did
you? (A) Well, it was somewhat self-annihilating. (L)
Ark is NOT happy with this explanation you guys have
given.

A: Life contains unhappy explanations at 3rd density,
sometimes.

[...]

Q: Ark is mad at you guys, you
know. So, I would like to know what is the advantage, if
any, of this profile you have described - what is the
evolutionary advantage of having this sick metabolism?

A: Who says this is "sick?"

Q: Well, I am saying this loosely. I mean, it's not normal,
it's not natural, it's highly unusual... nearly everyone I
have ever met who has a weight problem also has an eating
problem and I can promise you that I don't!

A: Better metabolism for cat... Sorry, that was our attempt
at an abbreviation!

Q: What were you attempting to abbreviate?

A: Guess.

Q: [Laughter] Is channeling the first word?

A: CAT.

Q: Next letter?

A: How about post cat-a-clysmic world.

Q: Well, Ark doesn't have that metabolism... I don't want to
be in a post-cataclysmic world without him...

A: Then give him the food.

Q: What food?

A: What food you have, if... confronted with the situation.

Q: Are you saying that we are gonna be hanging out on a post
cataclysmic planet?

A: That is always a possibility.

Now, in closing, I think that you have a lot of damn gall coming on my forum in public and discussing me and my physiology and health as though I was a commodity for trading. Buster, you have gone beyond the limits of civility, courtesy, and just plain good manners and my patience has just run out.

Let me again suggest that you create your own website and do your own thing. As we discovered during your visit, your path is not ours and vice versa. We were perfectly content to leave the matter there. Too bad that didn't work for you, too.