John Major Jenkins

[Joe]

Very good point. For the most part it's not about the external information that people reject, but they can't "receive" it to begin with because of cognitive dissonance, not questioning their own "thinking". This also ties into this whole "resonating" nonsense in the New Age. I lost count how many people have rejected factual knowledge in "discussions" (not really a discussion) because it didn't "resonate" with them or they "resonate" with stuff that is "not even wrong", so to speak, but just dreamy castles in the air that confirm their inner landscape based on lies to the self.

However this relates not only to "New Agers" but literally EVERYONE in varying degrees as we all are subjected to lies since birth. I've fallen into this trap myself, especially in the early days, where I thought I "know" and have "figured it out", not very discerning about certain information and not seeing myself clearly. I remember when I first started getting into the UFO topic and came across Steven Greer's "Disclosure Project". I believed all of it and even shared that information with others (essentially spreading disinformation). I WANTED it to be true and that emotional charge is what I mistook for "resonating". Thankfully I then came across Laura's work and the network. That started a process which has "stripped me to the bone" and it certainly was/is not easy at times, but the only way out is through. It's the necessity of disillusionment before we can actually "do" as it has been so well written by Timothy C. Trepanier in http://www.sott.net/article/244527-The-Necessity-of-Disillusionment

For that reason I'm not even remotely interested in "enlightenment" (I wouldn't even know how to define it) and certainly not in anyone who proclaims to be so, regardless of what "title" he/she has. There are countless "Masters" and "Teachers" promoting all kinds of teachings that promise this or that (most of it relating to "enlightenment"). It was the disappointment and dead ends in all of that which lead me to the 4th way and Gurdjieff's work. It teaches me to go step by step, the foundation and all there is are lessons every single day in every day of life, watching my mechanicalness and predator. I just came back from a trip seeing my parents. Boy, what a test for one's state of Being/Knowledge/Understanding in relation to "the Work" with all what that implies: External consideration, conscious suffering, etc... That alone is a challenge. Far more challenging than sitting on a mountain top and meditating/chanting Om.

This reminds me of this excerpt from the foreword from "The Stellar Man" by John Baines, titled "Message from Isis":

Do not believe that in the world there exist only the once born and the twice born; unfortunately the once and a half born and the aborted ones also exist. Beware not to be taken in by their convincing lies and machiavellian language. These beings live neither in this world nor the next. They are neither initiates nor laymen, but imitators of Masters, semi-sages, sowers with unclean hands, the followers of dead scrolls, and black magicians who covet me and boast of my love when they are not even worthy of my smile.

Some may wear saris or tunics; others, collars and aprons; others, the Rosicrucian attire; some proclaim themselves the only possessors of the truth, believing that they actually possess this monopoly. All of them claim my friendship, but are only beggars who plead to me for crumbs of wisdom. You do not achieve second birth by standing on your head or meditating, nor in the coffin of purely symbolic ceremonies, nor by good works or the grace of the Holy Spirit.

I've been reading ""Strangers to Ourselves - Discovering the Adaptive Unconscious" lately, which is also a real eye-opener. There is a review on the forum here: http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,26247.0.html
It shows how mirroring and networking is crucial in "the work" to evolve, wake up and truly get to know ourselves and the world, facing the lies we tell ourselves as we all have our blind spots. I think the hardest realization for anyone engaged in the Work (or in life in general) is to face to that we cannot truly trust our own thinking and alone we can do nothing.

That's the problem with all the researchers out there, including John Major Jenkins as we see here. Richard Dolan would be another example. Most of them are great when it comes to digging into external information, but the question is, how they take in the information and how are they unconsciously misinterpreting it because of their emotions, subjectivity, self-importance, etc.?

If all the researchers out there (everyone in their respective field) would lay aside their personal ambitions based on self-importance or career goals and come together to seek TRUTH together sincerely without agendas, but with the sole intent to find out truth, no matter what it is, understanding that this process also includes sincere self-work, we'd make a true shift in consciousness. But for now that is just wishful thinking. It would entail for Jenkins and Dolan (for example) to admit to themselves that they are/have been wrong about some things. However, this realization will conflict with their career and book sales, opening a can of worms, which may lose them some of their "fans", status and money.

For that reason most of the COINTELPRO "agents" are not consciously aware that they are spreading disinformation, but become "useful idiots" and tools for the matrix, despite their well-meaning intent.

IMO, an excellent summation of the problem Spiral Out.

 

[Voyageur]

Beyond the ardent work of dissolving the inherent discomforts of the process, and gaining lucid awareness and understanding of the internal dynamics (which are extensive), silencing the mind's incessant grasping and rambling and keeping it quite and yet fully open and conscious, is just about the most difficult thing imaginable.

Frankly, I think it pales in comparison to real 4th Way Work, the kind that Spiral Out was describing, which is why, IMO, he wrote what he did. You can try to defend it, but I don't see how the two are even comparable. Apples and oranges. Yes, meditation is difficult, in that the mind tends to wander and you have to exert effort to control yourself, but it's in no way like the kind of control that is needed to navigate a 4th Way life and that that implies.

Have to agree here with Heimdallr's post comment and Spiral Outs initial response, although i may get the following wrong. Meditation, its techniques, its awareness of the mind et al indeed takes practice. Sitting in a Zen center doing this has brought out awareness of how the mind wanders in thought, including awareness of the physical body. This is the same with EE sometimes or POTS even and certainly for 4th way; at least for me. Sitting on a mountain as you describe, and for a few this has been done for years on end, is another matter and involves the physical just as much as the mental, or the latter to help overcome the former. Being left alone with just your mind and no feedback for these long periods, osit, can for some carry many implications; not all good. Yet 4th way work has lead me to thinking that enlightenment is plain illusory; see no quick fix here. Just when thinking i've reached aware conclusions, the realization sets in that had not considered this or that in myself or another - feels like i really know nothing of the breadth of this. It seems also that seeking nothingness in meditation can quiet the mind, whether nothingness is achieved or not, and it is also great for focus and stress relief as a practice. In trying to equate these "apples and oranges" to some sameness, can find only limited comparison, especial when considering the often apparent personal pit falls of 4th way work; which is likely why it is abandoned so much; cause it is never easy - it shines bright lights upon ones mechanical reality from the inside out and the why of it, if it can be heard/seen. It seems also that many doing this work in the end just don't like that type of focus and leave. In saying this though, meditation does seem to help with focus, as in the work there is often the reality of forgetting ourselves. The other thought on this is that doing the work in egocentric societies is likely next to imposable as a generality, yet can fit for meditation. The work requires thinking and doing - all day, every day, in all encounters, with emphasis on considering. It is as the C's discuss - life is religion, and strict attention is required.

Going back to the topic at hand, read both articles by you and Robin and they were much needed. In reading these and the links, it all seems to trail back to what looks to be the epicenter of connections re Esalen. That place, as was described, sure brings up groups upon groups of people who it seems have had or have been knowingly or unknowingly pied pipers for the New Age Movement (NAM) since well before Jenkins. It seems like a base, a type of pre requisite place for embarking on NAM disinformation campaigns that have been with us since Murphy opened the doors in 1964. Can't for a second not think that the Cointelpro would not have been keeping a keen eye on this place from the beginning and how to make use of it.

Thank you both for writing - it should be passed along. :)

 

[LQB]

Beyond the ardent work of dissolving the inherent discomforts of the process, and gaining lucid awareness and understanding of the internal dynamics (which are extensive), silencing the mind's incessant grasping and rambling and keeping it quite and yet fully open and conscious, is just about the most difficult thing imaginable.

Frankly, I think it pales in comparison to real 4th Way Work, the kind that Spiral Out was describing, which is why, IMO, he wrote what he did. You can try to defend it, but I don't see how the two are even comparable. Apples and oranges. Yes, meditation is difficult, in that the mind tends to wander and you have to exert effort to control yourself, but it's in no way like the kind of control that is needed to navigate a 4th Way life and that that implies.

Maybe another way of saying this is that the disciplines of meditation are much more difficult to apply in the open actions and perceptions of the day-to-day life. The Fourth Way Work goes directly to this level of observation/participation without long periods in the "meditation zone" that often seek to be free of perceptions altogether. This is not to say that there is no place for extended meditation in isolation - it can provide lots of motivation to extend expanded awareness into everyday life, but it can also lead to escape and buffering wrt to the "real" world. This might be embodied in the Dzogchen words "... when the meditation becomes the non-meditation ..."

 

[jasstnhawk]

[...] One thing for sure (from my observations), Jenkins isn't wired tight enough to be an active agent. But could very well be, and likely is, a patsy.

After digging around a bit, I think there is enough coincidences and connections to conclude that Jenkins is at the very least a COINTELPRO patsy. With that said, the following statement made by Spiral Out is probably closer to the truth concerning Jenkins.

If all the researchers out there (everyone in their respective field) would lay aside their personal ambitions based on self-importance or career goals and come together to seek TRUTH together sincerely without agendas, but with the sole intent to find out truth, no matter what it is, understanding that this process also includes sincere self-work, we'd make a true shift in consciousness. But for now that is just wishful thinking. It would entail for Jenkins and Dolan (for example) to admit to themselves that they are/have been wrong about some things. However, this realization will conflict with their career and book sales, opening a can of worms, which may lose them some of their "fans", status and money.

For that reason most of the COINTELPRO "agents" are not consciously aware that they are spreading disinformation, but become "useful idiots" and tools for the matrix, despite their well-meaning intent.

 

[jasstnhawk]

Nice work, Robin [...]

I appreciate the "hat-tip" Gregory, however I was just following wherever the truth lead me or "following [my] nose" as you stated on FB.

With that said and for the sake of transparency, I would like to address the following statement because it contains most of the feedback you gave to me (via FB PMs) concerning my essay and what I perceive to be your lack of response or silence (via FB PMs) thereafter:

With regard to JMJ's comments/emails and the article in reply: http://www.sott.net/article/251921-John-Major-Jenkins-The-Mayans-2012-and-all-that-Jazz

I've been very careful to treat the matter impeccably. The logic in the article was simple and direct, but I also presented a balanced view of Jenkins – showing his good qualities as well, and not just shattering him. As I have said, FACTS are what interest me, not character assassination. I got the distinct impression from his correspondences that his issues are really with himself, and not anything I said.

This means, now, he can't attack without calling a fair assessment invalid. This automatically destabilizes him – were he to attack. Also, I laid a few traps – which I don't think I need to itemize – things he may not have liked, but cannot argue, because he knows where it will lead... unless he is truly dense, in which case we still turn out fine because we have the data to back the claims – much of which I'm sure Jenkins would prefer to keep on the low. In any event, everything goes back to him. And hey, even that is what he wanted from the beginning. ;)

There's a strong chance that pushing further at this point could give him an advantage of something new to attack and ignore my statements, which could only hurt him of course – because we'd use it to again point out the cherry-picking tendency – but may also cause a knee jerk reaction with unpleasant consequences. And, we always have to give people a chance for things to set in. Who knows, he may be in the throes of reformation ;)

He's pretty exposed at this point. We have to remember that this is a BIG year for book sales. He doesn't want to be discredited – which is likely what prompted his defensiveness to begin with – but he also doesn't want this to get out of hand – i.e. taken to the cleaners.

If he is smart (or has smart friends to advice him – a publicist, maybe) he will by now have researched SOTT, Laura, etc., and be under the influence of the realization that we are a Network – the bottom line – and exposing the truth is what we do. The recognition of facing this abyss and its consequences will most likely have quelled Mr. Jenkins concerns.

And besides, we'll all be Enlightened in a couple months, so what could possibly be worth the fuss at this juncture? ;)

Based on my previous statement and the following statements/feedback made by you via FB PM concerning my essay:

You make many good points, and for the most part well constructed and clear. But the article needs editing... with of course will happen if Joe and Laura take the article.

I'm not sure what they want to do at this point. I think the main thing Laura wanted was to quell the guy and shut him down... but not go on the attack full bore. But maybe they will change their mind, especially if JMJ pokes anymore. But I kind of doubt it.

I've been very careful to treat the matter impeccably... which Laura recognizes. The logic was direct, but also balanced. This means he can't attack without calling a fair assessment invalid. This automatically destabilizes him. Also, I laid a few traps... things he may not have liked, but cannot argue, because he knows where it will lead... unless he doesn't, in which case we still turn out fine. In any event, everything goes back to him. And hey, even that is what he wanted from the beginning.

There's a strong chance that pushing at this point could give him an advantage of something new to attack and ignore my statements, which could only hurt him of course, but may also cause a knee jerk reaction with unpleasant consequences. And, we always have to give people a chance for things to set in.

... I was beginning to wonder if I had stepped on your toes a bit or perhaps somehow thwarted the "traps" you laid out for Jenkins in your response article.

I want to state here that I did not originally set out to write an essay on Jenkins. After reading the comments Jenkins made under your original "2012" article on Sept 30th, and due to the respect I have for your work Gregory, I began (on the 30th) to dig around online to find out more about him. It was only after the info started to pile up that I thought that maybe I had an article about Jenkins for SOTT, hence this statement made by me via FB PM on Oct 2nd:

I had thought of maybe writing an article for SOTT.net concerning JMJ, however I am willing turn over what little research I have to you and Joe ...

Which is one of the reasons why I started this thread, however as I continued to dig around (from Sept 30th to Oct 4th), I had 7 pages worth of info in Word format or what amounted to an essay. Again, I did not originally set out to write an essay.

I would now like to address some of the other statements/feedback you made/gave ... I know, based on my comment history on FB and some of the comments I have made here on the forum, that I can come off or be seen as someone who 'attacks full bore' or as someone who has their sword unsheathed, however I do not believe that to be the case here (I have been diligently working on this mechanical behavior via the Work and some of the feedback I have received here on the forum. I also recognize I still have a long way to go concerning this behavior and other behaviors that coincide with it). With that said, I do not see my essay as an "attack full bore", "pushing at this point", lacking impeccability, or as unbalanced ... rather I see it as series of connections that point to Jenkins being a possible COINTELPRO patsy. Also, after I realized that the information I gathered amounted to an essay, I did not see a need to wait around for "things to set in" on Jenkins behalf, because for people such as Jenkins the "facts" never sink in. Furthermore, I do not feel there is such a thing as too much "exposure" for people like Jenkins. The last two statements were the reasons behind why I sent the gathered info/essay to Joe for review.

If I did happen to step on your toes or thwarted the traps you laid out in your response to Jenkins via my essay, I want to state here that was never my intent. The sole intent behind what became an essay, was to find out and set forth the truth about Jenkins ... nothing more, truly.

 

[Joe]

The sole intent behind what became an essay, was to find out and set forth the truth about Jenkins ... nothing more, truly.

And I understood that Robin, which is why I made the decision to publish your article on Jenkins.

I didn't see it as "full bore" anything, but rather a complementary piece to Gregory's. I also decided that both articles should be published more or less one after the other. I didn't see any point in waiting and then publishing again in a few weeks or months because both articles dealt with the same topic. I figured we should deal with it and then leave it (and we will unless something new comes up).

I also don't see either article as having anything to do with Jenkins personally. The articles were written and published in the interest of informing the general public. My only concern was that the content was accurate and in line with Sott.net's views on the topic.

Any original content published on Sott.net has to be understood in terms of the likely reach it will achieve. This reach is relatively very small and we understand that. I am fairly sure that the articles you and Gregory wrote will not negatively impact JMJ or his books sales in any significant way. Nor will they give him cause for any sleepless nights. The motivations for publishing the articles was to inform Sott.net readers and to uphold the truth. JMJ, in that respect, is largely irrelevant.

So, no worries, and I hope to see more articles from you in the future!

 

[jasstnhawk]

Thank you for sharing your perspective and for the clarification, Joe.

[...] I hope to see more articles from you in the future!

... and I hope to write more articles in the future. :)

When I first came to this forum I thought, due to my background studies in religion, that I would be starting new threads and posting more in the "Religion" section of the forum. However, as it seems right now, the COINTELPRO section has "called" me to task ... go figure ... I guess it goes to show when in pursuit of truth that most times the "path" chooses you and not the other way around. ;)


Edit: spelling

 

[Aeneas]

Maybe another way of saying this is that the disciplines of meditation are much more difficult to apply in the open actions and perceptions of the day-to-day life. The Fourth Way Work goes directly to this level of observation/participation without long periods in the "meditation zone" that often seek to be free of perceptions altogether. This is not to say that there is no place for extended meditation in isolation - it can provide lots of motivation to extend expanded awareness into everyday life, but it can also lead to escape and buffering wrt to the "real" world. This might be embodied in the Dzogchen words "... when the meditation becomes the non-meditation ..."

I agree with what you say about the Fourth Way Work and how meditation can become a buffer.

Some years ago, I knew an Englishman who in his youth had been in the protest movement in England. He got disappointed with that and decided to chill out and seeking psychedelic experiences until he finally travelled to India and later onto Tibet. There he joined the Tibetan buddhists and after years of meditating became a lama. This was after having gone into a cave and meditated for 3 years 3 month and 3 days and passed that test. The point that I am coming up to is that this was a very nice calm affable man who liked to chat with me and have tea together, but who was utterly blind to the going-ons in the world and would repeat the same sound bytes that he would read in the mainstream media, without discernment. He was someone who had found an "escape and buffering wrt. to the "real" world" as LQB expressed it above. So despite the peace that he had found, he was not a consciousness unit that was providing a good mirror back to Consciousness. Instead the mirror he provided back was one wrought with error and illusion.

This encounter was an eyeopener for me and I saw little point of meeting him after that. Having found Sott a couple of years before these encounters with this man had been very influential in beginning to cast off the layers of the veil. A process that still in many ways have just started.

 

[Atuya]

IMHO, the trio of articles was a swift and aggressive treatment to the general malaise surrounding the Mayan2012 mumbojumbo and its promulgation in the NAM. Jenkins being an admitted patron of those ideas, it was just that he was further singled out and brought to task on his part. As Perceval mentioned, he is irrelevant to the work of presenting the truth.

It will be interesting if this splinter of criticism is too much for him and he chooses to attack SOTT.

FWIW, I read the second article and thought to myself, "OKay, enough." But when Robin's research was published, my emo-thoughts changed again. I was elated and thinking that this was a perfect way to keep the "advantage". So, the complimentary articles were well placed, well timed, and powerful. A big thank you and admiration for your works.

 

[GregoryJ]

The sole intent behind what became an essay, was to find out and set forth the truth about Jenkins ... nothing more, truly.
Sorry, everybody... been very busy last couple days and got behind on our discussion.

And I understood that Robin, which is why I made the decision to publish your article on Jenkins.

I didn't see it as "full bore" anything, but rather a complementary piece to Gregory's. I also decided that both articles should be published more or less one after the other. I didn't see any point in waiting and then publishing again in a few weeks or months because both articles dealt with the same topic. I figured we should deal with it and then leave it (and we will unless something new comes up).

I also don't see either article as having anything to do with Jenkins personally. The articles were written and published in the interest of informing the general public. My only concern was that the content was accurate and in line with Sott.net's views on the topic.

Any original content published on Sott.net has to be understood in terms of the likely reach it will achieve. This reach is relatively very small and we understand that. I am fairly sure that the articles you and Gregory wrote will not negatively impact JMJ or his books sales in any significant way. Nor will they give him cause for any sleepless nights. The motivations for publishing the articles was to inform Sott.net readers and to uphold the truth. JMJ, in that respect, is largely irrelevant.

So, no worries, and I hope to see more articles from you in the future!

Robin:

... I was beginning to wonder if I had stepped on your toes a bit or perhaps somehow thwarted the "traps" you laid out for Jenkins in your response article.

I agree with Joe, completely, Robin. Stepping on my toes? Please. I imagine I'd have to be far more invested in this to feel you've stepped on my toes. :) I mean what I say and I say what I mean. I was only offering my input since it was asked of me. But I liked your article and am happy that Joe published it. Congrats.

As far as thwarting traps, no way. If anything, he'll ignore my points and jump to yours. But he'll have to address my points to get any further with this... I've got your back and I know you have mine, and if he pushes on your points, I'll just ask him nicely why he's chosen to ignore mine. Then he'll have to answer why. If anything, you've only sweetened the bait. ;) But I'm betting he's realized it best not to push anymore. I think he originally thought he was dealing with one lone chump, here.

BTW: Voyageur and LQB, I agree in principle with your points re: meditation and the Work. See also my earlier remarks re: Gate vs. trap – applies here too. Thanks for the contribution.

Anart: no identification; just sharing. There IS more than one way up the mountain, and I give a deep bow to the 4th Way practice. Like I said, though our path focuses intensely on meditation and movements, we share a great deal with the 4th Way, especially in terms of watching oneself and the mechanical actions one takes in ordinary life, and doing the Work necessary to modify oneself accordingly. Without this, mediation is indeed just a buffer, and an escape, and truly this does not work! ...at least not in our modern time. I have seen scores of meditators who have practiced diligently for many years and still not been moved toward the aim of the Work, or even close. So by no means do I argue that it is one or the other. I feel BOTH are necessary. Anyway, we need all the help we can get.

Cheers

 

[jasstnhawk]

... I was beginning to wonder if I had stepped on your toes a bit or perhaps somehow thwarted the "traps" you laid out for Jenkins in your response article.

I agree with Joe, completely, Robin. Stepping on my toes? Please. I imagine I'd have to be far more invested in this to feel you've stepped on my toes. :) I mean what I say and I say what I mean. I was only offering my input since it was asked of me. But I liked your article and am happy that Joe published it. Congrats.

As far as thwarting traps, no way. If anything, he'll ignore my points and jump to yours. But he'll have to address my points to get any further with this... I've got your back and I know you have mine, and if he pushes on your points, I'll just ask him nicely why he's chosen to ignore mine. Then he'll have to answer why. If anything, you've only sweetened the bait. ;) But I'm betting he's realized it best not to push anymore. I think he originally thought he was dealing with one lone chump, here.

Thank you for your response and for the clarification, Gregory.

I did have some difficulty understanding what I perceived to be as dissuading statements within your feedback. It's good to know that I did not 'step on your toes', 'thwart any traps', and that we are in good standing, i.e. "I've got your back and I know you have mine" in pursuit of truth. With that said, I do hope to continue to work alongside you in the future. :)

 

[GregoryJ]

...It's good to know that I did not 'step on your toes', 'thwart any traps', and that we are in good standing, i.e. "I've got your back and I know you have mine" in pursuit of truth. With that said, I do hope to continue to work alongside you in the future. :)

ditto :D