Jordan Peterson: Gender Pronouns and Free Speech War

Niall said:
Yeonmi Park telling (or selling) her story isn't new. She's been doing it since she was a teen star
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Is Kim throwing babies out of incubators yet? The whole story seems to be just a remake of the infamous 15-year-old Nurse Nayirah show of 1990. Unfortunately, that's one downside of N. Korea's self-imposed isolation and high level of secrecy resulting in almost non-existent reliable objective reports from the country.
 
SovereignDove said:
My partner just showed me this and we had a talk about it. I was surprised to see it here after the conversation, so thought I'd share a bit. One of the few issues we happen to agree on (wasn't expecting that, but glad to hear it from them).

Thanks for sharing it.

It's not fair. Biologically the muscle composition and ability is different for men and women. It's then too easy for a male athlete to identity as a female. It becomes a way to 'cheat' to win. I was a runner at one point, so the way I explain what I think about this to people when they ask, goes: if I wanted to win every race, I'd just identify as female', most people seem to understand that. And most seem to agree, on principle at the least.
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I want to challenge this, just a little bit.

The really obnoxious examples of "biological male athlete identifies as female and competes in sport" always involve 1) sports where they were performing at a non-trivial level pre-transition, 2) sports where they have advantages because they are biological males, and 3) the characters in question either have not transitioned (arbitrary "identity" switch) or are otherwise clearly discernable as biological males.

We aren't seeing the mass outrage over, say, biological females taking testosterone and competing in women's sports, which would be a comparable form of cheating.

Suppose we look at sports that are overwhelmingly dominated by women - gymnastics, aerial arts, figure skating, long-distance swimming, etc. - let's put a hypothetical transgender woman in there - is this still cheating, even when biological males are at a disadvantage?

Mentioning this to add some nuance to the discussion. I do pole dancing (tricks, not the more licentious stuff) and aerial silks for exercise - sometimes there is a plainly obvious transgender person who shows up - and they simply can't keep up with the ladies, the flexibility and grace that you expect from dancers just isn't there.
 
cinnamon said:
I want to challenge this, just a little bit.

The really obnoxious examples of "biological male athlete identifies as female and competes in sport" always involve 1) sports where they were performing at a non-trivial level pre-transition, 2) sports where they have advantages because they are biological males, and 3) the characters in question either have not transitioned (arbitrary "identity" switch) or are otherwise clearly discernable as biological males.

We aren't seeing the mass outrage over, say, biological females taking testosterone and competing in women's sports, which would be a comparable form of cheating.

Suppose we look at sports that are overwhelmingly dominated by women - gymnastics, aerial arts, figure skating, long-distance swimming, etc. - let's put a hypothetical transgender woman in there - is this still cheating, even when biological males are at a disadvantage?

Mentioning this to add some nuance to the discussion. I do pole dancing (tricks, not the more licentious stuff) and aerial silks for exercise - sometimes there is a plainly obvious transgender person who shows up - and they simply can't keep up with the ladies, the flexibility and grace that you expect from dancers just isn't there.
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That's a very interesting point that you make. I didn't consider it in my post, and it is true on the opposite end of transwomen in a female dominated sport, in the examples you have provided.

I was looking at the article of a male competing in a female sport, and related to cheating, because it easily can be. I didn't stop and consider who it could go the other way. I like the perspective you've provided because it does give a fuller picture.

The different sexes each do have some things they will naturally excel or do not as well when compared against each other.
 
cinnamon said:
We aren't seeing the mass outrage over, say, biological females taking testosterone and competing in women's sports, which would be a comparable form of cheating.
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I don't think that's a comparable form of cheating, at least not in most sports where the physical strength and size of men compared to women cannot be compensated for by women taking testosterone. There are basic differences in muscle mass, energy production and bone density that are hard-wired and cannot be sufficiently increased (in women) by hormones.
 
I think it is obvious that transmen and transwomen have either HUGE advantage or HUGE disadvantage in sports.
- transwomen will have huge advantage in i.e. weight lifting, but huge disadvantage in i.e. figure skating
- transmen would be the other way around, so i.e. huge disadvantage in weight lifting, but huge advantage in i.e. figure skating
Either way is not fair either to them or to other contesters.

Then there is also Olympic Values Education Programme (OVEP) which teaches participants the values of Olympic principles:
  1. experiencing the Joy of effort
  2. learning to Play Fair
  3. practicing Respect for oneself and others
  4. pursuit of Excellence
  5. living a Harmonious and Balanced Life of Body, Will and Mind

So allowing transpeople in Olympics is direct violation of:
  • No.1. - because there is less effort for transwomen to participate in i.e. weight lifting, or transmen to participate in figure skating
  • No.2., which then automatically violates No.3. - because it simply is not fair, as I stated on the beginning, and if you don´t play fair then you don´t have respect to others
  • No.4. - see No.1 and 2.
  • No.5. - as we are talking about transgender people in general, and we know how little percent of them is actually born like that, then No.5 is self explanatory violation
So, IMO, they shouldn´t be allowed to participate in classical Olympics.
 
This concerns feelings, and laws (coming soon) that are beyond imagining. Anyone can bring charges against one, all anonymous from behind a curtain. The complainant may well be $20,000 richer while the government goes after an addition $50,000. Yet no matter, the defendant (not that one can defend themselves in a kangaroo court) will be ruined, canceled, along with their families for not minding their P's and Q's (and Facebook et cetera is a large resource library.)

Justin Trudeau introduces worst censorship law of any western democracy - Rumble

rumble.com

This link is where the story (and video above) came out of.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and his Liberal Party announced another bill aimed at censoring speech in Canada — and this one might be the worst yet.
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Today, we moved our horse to another yard. I know, my post seems irrelevant. What do horses and yards have to do with the trans, white-hating minorities and the rest? Also today, a colleague from way back ebola times posted an angry post on LinkedIn mentioning 'working for a hypocrite boss'.

About Malachite, or Black Aces (his racing name). He is a darling thoroughbred wearing a dark complexion coat, on his strong built frame. He is fourteen and we got him at four years old a year after retiring from racing, and after suffering from neglect. We had both issues and problems that we had to work through and find solutions to his constant defensive behavior and learned fear. After all, if not pushed to perform he would linger in abandonment. He had a fairly large paddock but surrounded by trees. His neck and head were forward or downward leaning most of the time. He was living in constrained surroundings and without knowing he was feeling boxed, thus making him return to previous insecurities. Today Malachite went to the new yard that has open spaces and a broad horizon. For the first time, I saw my boy alert with his neck straight up doing an elegant trot while inspecting his surroundings. He made friends almost instantaneously.

Of course, Malachite is a horse, and we made an intervention and he has changed in his attitude by adapting to the new conditions.

The second case of 'working for a boss', has similar connotations. It is easy to feel victimized and react accordingly when one's mind is boxed in by either archaic notions or narrow surroundings. The head turns down, the neck leans forward.

Transitioning from one gender to another is the consequence of the social experimentation and testing of the degree of boxed mentality. The same is the critical race notion. Up to the 1990s the education, and in specific tertiary education was broad, systematic, and thorough. Details were provided, the structure was provided, and more often than not most of the subjects were compulsory as opposed to elective. Since 1990 the society and work started to fragment into pigeon holes on the false premise of diversification and specialization to the extent that people know very little these days and cannot operate without their PC, tablet, or cellphone. I doubt that the vast majority know who they are anymore. Perhaps the exponents of the minority writing tweets should take a trip to Africa and spend a month working in an African village that has no electricity or internet or not even water on tap. That would do wonders! Same for trans.

With Love!
 
Voyageur said:
This concerns feelings, and laws (coming soon) that are beyond imagining. Anyone can bring charges against one, all anonymous from behind a curtain. The complainant may well be $20,000 richer while the government goes after an addition $50,000. Yet no matter, the defendant (not that one can defend themselves in a kangaroo court) will be ruined, canceled, along with their families for not minding their P's and Q's (and Facebook et cetera is a large resource library.)
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Oh my God, Jesus Christ and all Saints!
If what Ezra says is true (haven't studied the bill yet) the law is not only to criminalize human feelings but to do so even on the base of someone's fear that you might commit a hate speech / offence at any time in the future. You may never get to know the 'victim's identity but you can be punished with all possible restrictions (like no drinks, no freedom of movement, no knives in your kitchen drawers, who knows, maybe no access to the Internet) or - if you don't follow the 'resocialization' orders, err, recommendations - you'll rot in prison for a year. For a crime not being a crime by any reasonable standards and not committed yet.

Don't dare to make fun of or criticize anything you don't like or don't agree with. At least as long as you're not a leftie.
 
bjorn said:
''Violent'' How do they function? Even supporting these people triggers them. This is another kind of crazy.
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There is no end to it, it seems. Whatever the most ridiculous, surrealistic claim or demand I can come up with one day, it's out there the next day or week. Are they going to ban the word "transgender" as offensive one day because they are just "new men/ women"? Or perhaps any word in any way related to sex/gender as... sexist by definition? Why not? Just wait and you may see it happen soon. But wait, how will they keep talking then about evil patriarchy? Oh, no worries, contradiction is not not something that would stop them even if only for a brief moment, and they can always find another whipping boy, oops, existential threat to their fragile psyche.

It's a sad time when nothing can surprise you anymore and the only thing that could, and in a positive way, won't come in a foreseeable future, if ever.
 
Possibility of Being said:
Oh my God, Jesus Christ and all Saints!
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I digressed using a few choice colourful metaphors myself while reading the Bill, yet not out loud mind you.

Here are a few of the specifics of the jackals takedown payment structure in the Bill:

Complaint substantiated — section 13

53.‍1 If at the conclusion of an inquiry the member or panel conducting the inquiry finds that a complaint relating to a discriminatory practice described in section 13 is substantiated, the member or panel may make one or more of only the following orders against the person found to be engaging or to have engaged in the discriminatory practice:
(a) an order to cease the discriminatory practice and take measures, in consultation with the Commission on the general purposes of the measures, to redress the practice or to prevent the same or a similar practice from recurring;
(b) an order to pay compensation of not more than $20,000 to any victim personally identified in the communication that constituted the discriminatory practice, for any pain and suffering that the victim experienced as a result of that discriminatory practice, so long as that person created or developed, in whole or in part, the hate speech indicated in the complaint;
(c) an order to pay a penalty of not more than $50,000 to the Receiver General if the member or panel considers it appropriate having regard to the nature, circumstances, extent and gravity of the discriminatory practice, the wilfulness or intent of the person who is engaging or has engaged in the discriminatory practice, any prior discriminatory practices that the person has engaged in and the person’s ability to pay the penalty.
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Then there is:

Non-disclosure of identity — Commission

(8) The Commission may deal with a complaint in relation to a discriminatory practice described in section 13 without disclosing, to the person against whom the complaint was filed or to any other person, the identity of the alleged victim, the individual or group of individuals who has filed the complaint or any individual who has given evidence or assisted the Commission in any way in dealing with the complaint, if the Commission considers that there is a real and substantial risk that any of those individuals will be subjected to threats, intimidation or discrimination.
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For some strange reason they are particularly interested in confiscating what are deemed weapons (many types) from the accused, or rather the convicted, while adding ankle bracelets and taking bodily samples when also found guilty of a section of the code.

Did I mention this was Canada "The True North strong and free!" or in the English translation by the parliamentary translation bureau
O Canada!
Land of our ancestors
Glorious deeds circle your brow
For your arm knows how to wield the sword
Your arm knows how to carry the cross;
Your history is an epic
Of brilliant deeds
And your valour steeped in faith
Will protect our homes and our rights,
Will protect our homes and our rights.
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:umm:
 
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