Jordan Peterson: Gender Pronouns and Free Speech War

What Joe said:

The analysis and advice that is true and useful for a normal human individual cannot be transposed onto global issues and dynamic that are created and directed by psychopaths and psychopathic groupings. That's apples and oranges. But Peterson's naivety, emotional instability and therefore difficulty in facing objective reality (as the Cs said) leads him into wishful thinking and a "rose colored glasses" view of those global dynamics and, as a result, he gets things horribly wrong.

I just want to say that he seems different to me as well. We have these nexus points in life that can sort of determine what future self is in the process of being realized and therefore becomes the animating force. It looks to me like he chose poorly for whatever reason. He doesn't appear to be the same energetically. Might be something to ask the C's about.
 
I confess never having finished 12 Rules, because I thought it was a bit of a waste of time. I think I stopped reading at the chapter about not letting your children do what you would hate. It felt too repetitive, "angry" with not enough content at the time.

I read it and I think the biggest takeaway for me was from the first chapter and the bit about the lobsters, I went through quite a bit of liberal/marxist/early woke schooling in college (early 2000s) and he makes a great case that social hierarchies are biological, not societal. I hadn't realized that I had a belief that power structures were primarily learned societal constructs, so that turned a lightbulb on for me.

At the time there were other parts of the book that resonated with me and helped me to get motivated to take responsibility for myself and work hard for my family, so I got some value out of it. Maybe its because I'm a young(er) man? Not sure.
 
His basic message, particularly to young people and particularly in Western nations, but potentially applicable to anyone, is "stop moping around and being depressed about how crap your life is and find something challenging and useful (to yourself and ideally others) to do to provide you with a sense of purpose and meaning. Then you won't feel so depressed".
I guess a lot people made Peterson into a surrogate father. Now surrogate father is leading all these lost people into ruthlessness and domination. That would explain to me the highly emotional reaction to his fall.
 
Not being a western millennial, I've never understood the "internet father figure" thing. Hero worship can be very dangerous, which is maybe why the ancients had mythical heroes that weren't really human. One has to keep in mind also the C's remark that '"fan" is short for "fanatic."' (session 23/10/1999). Context is everything, and even what is perceived as a good message should be put into its own context: it may help some depending on their circumstances, it may be irrelevant to some depending on their circumstances, or harmful to some depending to their circumstances. Nobody, and nothing is immune from examination. Now J. Peterson has said many things that helped many people that needed to hear certain things at some moment in their lives. He also said many moronic things. That's human life.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if people like Peterson, JFK jr in the West, and, for example, Grzegorz Braun in Poland, are programmed to lead people astray and especially the youth once they build an emotional connection with them.
You can see the pattern here. During covid 1984 they were pulling normal people who had not yet completely succumbed to "programming".
 
A 'great Soul' is no guarantor of anything - you'll still get kicked out of the house if you don't pay rent.
I'm wondering if his soul hasn't detached during his benzo-collapse... Or maybe some entities got attached. When I was thinking about his coma, I got a weird feeling that his daughter really is his Harvey Pasternak, but maybe in a more metaphorical sense...

JP and his ARC kind of fit what I've heard about how security services operate in Poland (and I guess everywhere):

(...) On this occasion, I would like to show you several ways in which anyone who comes up with something that could disturb the order of certain interest groups can be played by the system's guardians and their helpers.

The first way to deprive the real author of an idea or initiative that is dangerous for the smooth operation of these behind-the-scenes arrangements is to create a double who will say, postulate and propagate seemingly the same thing. Of course, this will be done in such a way that it will not disturb the status quo of this system, if it ever had to be introduced. Such action is only about using an idea or initiative to deprive someone who came up with it of the so-called freshness that could interest people and find their support. This is typical of nipping the matter in the bud so that no uncontrolled person can appear in public space. Then the real author of solutions that could actually change something, without the support of the media, politicians or public figures, will easily be covered by such a double prepared and promoted by the services, before the real author himself manages to reach people's awareness with his solutions. Of course, I do not lump all dishonest opportunists into the same category as the security services, because certainly many people who act in this way are simply ambitious morons and mediocrities who try to gain their own benefits at someone else's expense.

However, if the first method is not sufficient to effectively take over an idea or initiative, the second way to play a person who threatens the system is to create several doubles who will overlap with similar solutions. Then the real author gets lost in the crowd of people who say very similar things and the one who stands out the most in the public space wins. This creates a situation that is very easy to control, because the system's guards have a whole range of tools to promote the one that is convenient for them. However, if someone proposes and promotes an extensive package of solutions, they use the third method.

While it is relatively easy for the system guards to take over one idea or initiative, because someone else could also come up with a similar idea, creating a duplicate that copies many solutions of one author carries the risk that ordinary people will support the robbed one person because they will not believe in such a large number of cases, because it will become clear to them that this double is a carved muppet of the security services. Therefore, in this variant, they have to cut such a package of solutions into smaller fragments and assign them to individual muppets. Preferably those who have dealt with similar topics in the past. So that you can easily argue that it's only natural that these people would announce it now. It's even better when they manage to involve people with scientific degrees to additionally support it with their authority. Then all you need to do is combine these people into one entity, for example organizations or parties, and you can pretend that this unrest is the joint work of many people and the situation is under control again. Then if a real author loudly points out that this one is a thief, that one is a cheater, and the next one is a plagiarist, that they are all trying to take over and control his idea or initiative, this author puts himself in a situation where it is easy to label him with some mental disorder. Either some paranoia or a persecution mania. And if this person talks about the security services, you can make him look like a schizophrenic, because "everyone is following him and everyone is trying to rob him". In this way, the system's guardians will achieve their goal anyway, because they either successfully take over and control a given idea or initiative, or they discredit the real author.

(...) Here I would also like to emphasize that I do not believe that all such people who participate in such activities should immediately be security service officers. Because I don't think that's the case. A good agent does not reveal himself and does not play the first violin. Rather, he tries to control the situation from the back seat. It is much wiser for them to use other people to achieve their goals. This is not too difficult for them either, because they are highly trained in psychology and manipulating other people is their craft. So they know exactly which side to play to get the right people to do what they want them to do.

Source (in Polish):
 
For me, some of Jordan Peterson's lack of depth was visible when he had that debate with Zizek. Not that I'm a Zizek fan, but at that time it seemed to me that Jordan Peterson was kind of stuck in a pre-made narrative that worked for him and that was all he could say. This narrative isn't bad per se, it works for a lot of people when it comes to some very basic life issues, as Joe was saying, and I don't think we should discard all of that just because he's so lost now. However, in the debate it was visible that he didn't even research Zizek's work before the debate and he just put him in the 'cultural Marxism' bag because he's a leftie, so his arguments seemed a bit superficial and not very precise.

Well, it's actually hard for me to articulate exactly what I noticed about that debate, but it was just an impression at the time.

I think that one of the main problems with Jordan Peterson is something that is quite common and can happen to a lot of people, which is: the lack of applied knowledge. We could see this in some of the bad decisions he had made before in his life, and we see it now, where he seems to be unable to extrapolate what he talks about to other issues, think carefully about them before making too many assumptions, and control his reactions. I think reaction is a good word for him. He reacts, and then, he gets committed to whatever reaction he had and defends it with his intellect. Sometimes those reactions are good, such as his reaction against the bill in Canada that started this thread, but sometimes, they aren't, and that's a problem if you always just go with your emotional reactions.

All of this is quite normal and not something that is specific to Jordan Peterson. The issue is that he is an 'influencer' and has an impact on a lot of people, so, it really bothers. If he could at least acknowledge that he doesn't know what he's talking about regarding this topic and get to research a bit before assuming all kinds of pre-made ideas and reacting, he would be OK, I guess. But no, he continues to react in a way that is similar to a snowball: first he reacts, he commits to this reaction, defends it, which makes him react even more, and it goes on like that.
 
To my eyes, sadly increasing signs of latent disintegration.

First his foray into humor... satire... satyr...? Did we really need this Jordan...?


And then in contrast to forced-jovial we get bust-a-blood-vessel as he glowers at Russell Brand, taking on a stormy, red faced aspect throughout somewhat unnervingly akin to Agent Smith prior to his final meltdown...

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And finally by way of a further contrast, a near tearful, pacing, blancmange of a speech given in London as the final address of his new initiative - The Alliance for Responsible Citizens, ARC, which concluded its inaugural event before 1,500 invited guests, 1st Nov.

Irish writer John Waters was one of those 1,500. Despite his longing for the three day conference to be substantive, he left with a sense of - well, micro-managed blancmange. For Waters - who experienced a crash landing awakening during 2020-2022 - the absence of any confrontation of the legacy of the global COVID cult was both shocking and unforgivable. He came a way with the feeling he had been corporate micromanaged into ineffectual naval gazing (with not a mention of Gaza, but plenty of bible quotes). He has posted here at great length about both the event itself and his own conflicted response to it and to the current version of the Peterson brand.

ARC proudly proclaims this to be JP's 'most inspiring speech ever'. Waffle as Rome burns came to my mind but I leave it to you to decide...

 
I can't remember which issue Mate was wrong about in recent years, though I know it happened. People on the forum were rightly upset about Mate. However, people are way more upset now regarding Peterson, and that is curious to me, why people are so much more emotionally invested in Peterson.
Probably because of what each of them represented with themselves. One is a hippy intellectual, the other is the Second Coming of Christ.

And no, Peterson is not THE Christ. He's Of Christ. He aligned himself with the spirit of Christ and preached the Message of Christ, so people obviously looked up to him and listened. He was representing the spirit of Christ, manifesting it into our world, and people saw that.

But then, Peterson went in the direction that he went to, and people that admired his message had to watch him descend into the darkness. They had to watch the brilliant light of an angel dim and become corrupted, and witness the angel's fall. They had to watch the Antichrist crush and destroy the Christ, so there's nothing but an empty husk left.

And to me, this is what Jordan Peterson represents today: Antichrist's victory. We are entering the period of time where the "anti spirit" of the Antichrist reigns victorious, and Jordan Peterson is the canary in the coal mine. Or rather, a frog in a poisoned pond.
And just like that frog is the first one to die because of the toxins, he succumbs to the Antichrist's spiritual poison, signalling that the (spiritual) environment is no longer habitable. His fall is a sign of what's yet to come, and a sign of where many others will follow.

In a way, these might be the end times all these Bible-obsessed End-Timers were waiting for. Except they don't realize the symbolic and metaphysical reality will make them play the role of the Antichrist's goons.
 
A good parent is immediately responsive to a baby, especially less than 6 months old.

I can't remember which issue Mate was wrong about in recent years, though I know it happened. People on the forum were rightly upset about Mate. However, people are way more upset now regarding Peterson, and that is curious to me, why people are so much more emotionally invested in Peterson.
Maybe this is not what you are referring to, but as I remember it, Mate was somewhat jealous about Peterson's popularity, he made some negative comments about JP, and that looked really bad on him (Mate). So people like myself were a bit annoyed at his pettiness. And a lot of people, including me, are now furious at Peterson because he is basically advocating or condoning genocide. At least that's how I see it.

As I said, perhaps you are referring to a different Mate incident I missed or forgot, but I'm sure it wasn't as bad or as stupid at what JP is doing now. So at least I am way more upset at JP given the magnitude of his wrong-doing.
 
I did purchase 12 rules and after reading a few paragraphs here and there (before starting a book I get a taste first to see if it has substance), immediately got bored and gave up (I even searched for how to sell it online, the only book I ever thought of selling). Therefore, I haven't read the book to know whether the critiques of the Spanish guy are on point or if he's using hyperbolas and straw men. However, even if the critiques do not concern the contexts in the book itself, they're worth considering "from a certain point of view".

As for Mate's looks, he talks about his health issues and addictions and there is nothing wrong about it. Like everybody else, he could be right about issue X and wrong about issue Y. It's not about following somebody but about gaining knowledge from useful things they can offer. I've known people with Mate's appearance and that appearance tells nothing about their character. It could be related to ancestry, health, life hardships, etc. Not a central issue.
just to be clear: It was more an exploration into my own psyche, that I discovered that there is a rooted distrust. I do not have anything against him. I mean Mate. Peterson is something else. And I, too, did not finish the 12 Rules because I thought it is obsolete to me. Rule four is an important one, though, and I see the inability to care for oneself in the same loving way you are caring for others as a true problem of societies. but after rule four it faded for me aswell an I got bored, too.
 
I've just been watching some of the Peterson interview with Brand, and I've found some of the things he said to be surprising, and enlightening and very revealing about him.

He actually says, "The mistake the materialists made was to look for God in nature [...] If you're looking in nature, then you're not going to find God because that's not where he is. [...] We shouldn't be confusing God with what isn't God and one of the things the scientists and enlightenment types have done is to help us figure out where God isn't. [...] And the reductionist materialists who say there's no God in the material world, it's like, well yeah... and what's your point!?" He quotes Elijah as equating God with the little voice inside you, which Peterson interprets to mean conscience.

Firstly, this tells me a whole bunch about his perception of the world, which again highlights for me how much I take for granted my own perception of the world. How can you look at any manifest thing in this reality and not see God/intelligence in it? And this from a man who actually played for one of his university classes a computer generated animation of what's going on in a cell during DNA replication.

Secondly, I think this demonstrates that he maybe equates himself with God, or that God is something inside him and other people, and that's all there is to it. It's completely egocentric! What, the human spirit is the only thing that can be used as evidence of God? Good grief, look around you, man.

It appears as though Peterson thinks of himself as a believer in God, but doesn't consider the idea of intelligent design. How is that possible? Does he see religion and materialism as two different things that just coexist? The big bang happened and evolution happened, and then God was just inside people?

It shows how much one is lost in the fog of trying to put together the pieces of this reality when you don't have a strong metaphysical, ontological framework.

He's truly gotten lost in the Jewish, Old Testament view of reality. And he thinks he's a Christian?
 
To my eyes, sadly increasing signs of latent disintegration.

First his foray into humor... satire... satyr...? Did we really need this Jordan...?

Well, I did finally watch the video, and I think it was made to look deliberately ugly. I think he/they wanted to portray that the ideologies of the ones mentioned in the video, like Foucault, lead to an ugliness, which we are seeing today.

It is almost like an Economist cover, only in reverse, with the symbolism involved.

...Or is it Trump derangement syndrome in reverse. I don't know, but it is surely unsettling to see what is happening to people now, on both sides of the spectrum.
 

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