Jordan Peterson: Gender Pronouns and Free Speech War

mkrnhr said:
Tomek said:
Dr Peterson recently performed a Ask me Anything (AMA) on Reddit, here's the link :

_https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/615e3z/i_am_dr_jordan_b_peterson_u_of_t_professor/

The answers are more measured and apparently they had some fun during the exchange.

Here are some answers:

My wife keeps me from identifying too much with the archetype [The hero archetype in the question] :)

Seriously, though, I have people around who keep my feet on the ground. Sanity is something better outsourced.

I am preoccupied right now with determining how to go about using YouTube most effectively. I am going to start a series of lectures on the Biblical stories. I want to do a good job of that.

Apart from that, I am trying to keep up with my obligations and opportunities. I have a business and a clinical practice and a family and graduate students and a social media following and a book to finish and another one to write and thousands of emails to try to answer (many of which are extremely heartfelt and thoughtful). I'm trying to figure out how to stay on top of this, and to say "no," when it's necessary without unduly disappointing people.

But most particularly I am trying not to make a mistake in what I say or do because such a thing might well be fatal given the insane amount of attention that is currently focused on me.

I'm not complaining. I have been provided with an amazing set of opportunities. But it's a highwire act and many people are depending on me and I don't want to get careless and fall.

On lying:

"I'd rather not discuss that" is a good way to not lie. You also aren't required to break confidence or reveal anything private. Telling the truth (or not lying) is complicated.

To tell the truth you have to have decided that (1) that truth will in fact save the world and (2) that the world is in fact worth saving.

I think that answers to some interrogations about what was meant instead of what was said.

It depends on what you mean by "teaching" and "correct." I certainly do not think that I am providing any final answers. But I think I am correct in the manner that I teach. When I lecture, I am not saying what I believe to be the case but thinking on my feet, trying to extend and clarify my knowledge while also communicating. To the degree that I do that properly, I am modeling how to learn -- how to become wise. To the degree that I do that properly, what I am doing is "correct."

The danger of become your own imitator is clear. I think I would be more prone to becoming a demagogue if I wanted to be a demagogue -- if I wanted power of that sort. I don't. I could have had a successful political career, and people still call on me to do so. But I am more interested in sorting things out and helping other people do the same thing. I know there is danger in popularity. I try not to confuse myself with who people think I am or might be. I try not to make a fatal mistake and consider it a miracle currently that the house is not falling apart in pieces around me. I am grateful that people find what I am doing useful. That's what I was hoping for. Hopefully the monster that is forming around me -- so to speak -- won't eat me.

I notice that his manner of posting is similar, not just in terms of subject matter, but also in tone, to some of the forum members here. Words carry power, so it's important to be cognizant of that when using them.

I get the impression that he's managed to develop numerous principles which run in a parallel manner to 4th Way schooling. I'd be curious to know if that developed naturally on its own or if he began with some seed ideas which came from a common garden, so to speak.
 
For tragedy/comedic effect, this is the abstract from 2013 of a paper published in a journal called "Nordic Journal of Feminist and Gender Research" (apparently it's a thing).

_http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/08038740.2015.1136681

Feminist theory needs a constructivist account of biological sex for at least two reasons. The first is that as long as female and male are the only two sexes that are taken for granted, being cisgender, heterosexual, and preferably a parent will be the norm, and being intersexed, transgender, bi- or homosexual, infertile or voluntarily childless will be deemed failure. The second is the fact that, usually, sex and gender come together in the way that is expected, i.e. the fact that most females are women and most males are men needs to be explained. This paper provides a constructivist theory of sex, which is that the sex categories depend on norms of reproduction. I argue that, because the sex categories are defined according to the two functions or causal roles in reproduction, and biological function is a teleological concept involving purposes, goals, and values, female and male are normative categories. As there are no norms or values in nature, normative categories are social constructions; hence, female and male are not natural but social categories. Once we understand that biological normativity is social, biological norms of heterosexuality, fertility, and so on are no longer incontestable. In addition, as many gender norms also concern reproduction—socially mediated reproduction—this simple theory of sex explains the common confluence of sex and gender.

After reading this, it is recommended to read anything that makes sense, to do some math, to breath deeply, or/and to listen to music. "When you stare into the Abyss, the Abyss stares back into you."
 
As others have noted, one of the things that impresses me about Peterson is how he can talk about complex topics and break them down quickly with few words. These few quotes from his Reddit AMA highlight that quality of his IMO:

Which questions are keeping you up at night? How can we assist you in finding answers to them?

How can you help? You know the answer: sort yourself out. Really. That's the best thing you can do. And if something I have done is helpful during that process then I am absolutely thrilled about that. If you put yourself together, then five other people around you will also do so. Then we'll see where we can go together.

How would you differentiate someone being part of a movement, religion or someone other comprehensive belief-system versus succumbing to ideology?

Ideologues assume the problems of the world are someone else's fault. Or they assume that broadscale systemic change (according to their dictates) is a prerequisite to utopia. A truly religious person tries to change him or herself, which is a more difficult and less grand task.

As a clinical psychologist and an all-around wise man, what advice do you have on social anxiety?

Face it. Practice being in social situations.
Concentrate on the other people. Every time you get anxious, you're falling inside yourself, and not paying attention to what is around you. Instead of worrying about how you are appearing, pay attention and try to make those around you comfortable.
Listen to what people are saying, and ask them questions about it, or about themselves. Listen to their answers. They'll like you immediately. Hardly anyone listens.

What is your opinion on pornography, and masturbation in general?

I think that pornography entices people away from life. So that's not good. It's a quick, easy, low quality solution to a complex problem. I can't see its use as something that increases integrity and promotes strength.

My question to you is: are fairy tales misogynist? And if so, should authors restructure these tales to reflect different, arguably more contemporary structures of society?

Don't discuss the deeper meaning of literature with people whose primary concern is whether or not the literature in question conforms to this week's obsession with identity politics. That's the correct answer to your question.

Authors should leave stories they didn't write alone and go write their own classics -- if they can. Some fairy tales are ten thousand years old. Anyone who thinks they can write something for the ages is welcome to try.

Can you go into detail about what you find objectionable about moral relativism? Secondly, can you describe how you see post-modernism and what its biggest faults are?

I believe in the existence of evil.
Postmodernists notice the complex problem of the ever-present subjective interpretive framework and then, instead of facing the problem squarely, assume that there is no world. They take the easy way out, intellectually. Then second-rate intellects hijack their work to justify their refusal to take responsibility as individuals.
 
Woodsman said:
I notice that his manner of posting is similar, not just in terms of subject matter, but also in tone, to some of the forum members here. Words carry power, so it's important to be cognizant of that when using them.

I noticed the same thing. There were many brilliant answers by Peterson on reddit, especially those others have quoted here. However, there were some that IMO show that Peterson has some blind spots as well (or rather that he doesn't have the 'whole banana' so to speak).

Here are some more good ones:

Professor, you have talked in your lectures about wasting time and not operating even close to our potential effectiveness. How can on defeat lethargy and procrastination? (I know you've mentioned things like getting up early and eating breakfast). Do you follow a detailed day plan? Thanks!!

I follow an extremely detailed day plan. I schedule constantly, by the hour, week, month and multi-month period. It's absolutely necessary if you want to be productive. Start with a simple schedule.
If you hate the idea, think about it this way: you are not scheduling what you have to do (what you MUST do). You are trying to design the perfect day, week, month, etc. Some of this will include meeting your obligations, but it shouldn't all be that. Plan a day that you would regard as positive and successful.

Dr. Peterson,
I have often felt that the phrase "love the sinner, hate the sin" was imprecise, but could never put my finger on exactly how. Do you think it is an accurate statement of how we should treat each other and our actions, and if not, how then should we act?

"Love the sinner" is precisely what a good psychotherapist practices. When someone comes to see me, I am on that person's side (but not on the side of the part of them that is working towards destruction). I help people separate the wheat from the chaff -- not to eliminate the chaff so much as to gather the wheat.

How does one choose, and adhere to, transcendent values without falling into ideological possession? It seems to me both things involve service to a higher value.

It depends, I suppose, on the transcendent value. I think that truth is the highest value, although it has to be embedded in love. What I mean by that is that truth should serve the highest good imaginable. For me, that is what is best for each individual, in the manner that is simultaneously best for the family, and the state, and nature itself. But you can only want that good if you love Being.

(Question about depression)

The depression question is a very difficult one to answer. It requires careful diagnostic interviewing. I would ask, first, what have you tried to treat your depression? I would never say that mere "biting the bullet" is sufficient, although maintaining what structure you can in your life despite your pain and immobility is generally for the best.

You mentioned the current ideological war sitting atop the philosophical war, which may itself be atop a metaphysical, or theological war. Could this metaphysical war be contextualized as occurring within the psyche of all individuals? Like an ecosystem of archetypes or "egregores", nourished by the genetics and culture of the person in question in order to project themselves (the archetypes) through unconscious agencies in our brains? These archetypal thought-forms seem to make up the philosophical conflict at its deepest level. This model is a bit far-out, but seems to map very neatly onto the psychedelic experience, which demonstrates that you as a person are not "doing living", you are in a sense "being lived through" by some abstract life force outside yourself. Is your interpretation similar?

You would be interested in learning more about CG Jung's idea of the pleroma, which is roughly the meta-space inhabit by archetypes. If you can imagine ideas battling with one another across the centuries, and then posit a meta-space in which that battle is occurring, then you have conceptualized, to some degree, the pleroma.

Hello, Dr. Peterson,
How would you define your God? Do you believe in the supernatural? Do you pray?


My God is the spirit that is trying to elevate Being. My God is the spirit that makes everything come together. My God is the spirit that makes order out of chaos and then recasts order when it has become too limiting. My God is the spirit of truth incarnate.

None of that is supernatural. It is instead what is most real.


It depends on what you mean by pray.

I don't ask God for favors, if that's what you mean.


There's also a Peterson meme thing going on on reddit (_https://www.reddit.com/r/Jordan_Peterson_Memes/), some are quite good and show people's reactions to the Peterson phenomenon. That he strikes a chord with people would be an understatement! I like these for example:

Ygc5ZTFfr34gTMmjmv8NZmQg4-jFCOFoHgIkxZHi0VE.jpg


-xgwVd_RVflZ1ESm51fFrc19eZ0h7L19Q7CPZXdgJBk.jpg


mL3U-qB5YhWvCW4RiuyoDc8r231ILEzCu0Sx9k5WsOI.jpg
 
Something I just thought of today:

Scottie said:
I just finished Hostage to the Devil last night.

I started reading it many months ago, but when I got to the 5 exorcism stories, I stopped. Not sure why, but I felt like it might be too much, too creepy, whatever... So, a few days ago, I decided it was time, so I read the rest.

The most interesting bits for me were the ways in which permission was basically given for the evil entities to do their thing. For example:

Gerald straightened up. He changed his tone to a sharp, inquisitorial, and imperious note: “You, Evil Spirit, you will obey our commands.”

Again, the rasping voice: “You do not know what you’re getting into, priest. You cannot pay the price. It’s not your virginity merely that you’ll lose. And not merely your life. You’ll lose it all—”

“As Jesus , Our Lord, bore sufferings, so I am willing to bear what it costs to expel you and send you back to where you came from.”

This was Gerald’s first error. Without realizing it, and in what looked like heroism, he had fallen into an old trap. They were now on a personal plane: he versus the evil spirit. No exorcist can function in a personal way, in his own right, offering his strength or his will alone to counter and challenge the possessing spirit. He never should try to function in place of Jesus, but merely speak and act in concert with him as his representative.

(p. 227). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

When I read this, I exclaimed, "No, you dingbat! He gave permission!"

Gerald (the exorcist) clearly says that he is willing to bear what it costs to expel the demon. He gave it permission, and that was a bad idea. He ended up physically assaulted, literally torn up (I won't say where, but it's bad) and in the hospital for 4.5 weeks.

It seems like the Catholic exorcists have a plan, and it works - but they don't even really understand why it works.

There are several other examples. The "doorway" through which the entities sneak in usually has something to do with self-importance, and mostly with believing some lie. If you believe that gender is purely physical, you're open. If you believe that love is purely sex, you're open. If you believe that spirit is nothing more than a chemical, physical thing, you're open.

If you're so sure that you have the right answers, then via your self-importance, you can believe a lie that is literally inviting in all kinds of bad stuff.

I hadn't thought of this before, but the case of Richard/Rita is directly related to gender, what it means, what it means to be fe/male, etc.

And one of the things that always bothered me about this gender pronoun thing and transgender individuals especially is the fact that being male or female has WAAAAY more to do than just the physical hardware present.

As Martin writes in the book, Fr. Gerald says something along the lines of: You're not female or male because you have the proper physical parts; you have the physical parts because you are female or male.

Now, naturally, transgender folks claim they were the other gender to start with, so they're just fixing that by "switching sides". Well, who knows? I guess that's entirely possible. I would be interested to know in how many cases this is actually true vs. the number of cases were it's more the result of issues, ponerization, etc.

In any case: It's still hard for me to see how modifying yourself can change you from male to female or vice versa, because it's only physical/chemical. It totally ignores what it truly means at a deeper level to be male or female. Change the hardware, take the hormones, okay... But are you really truly a different gender? That's a hard question to answer.

Similarly, gender pronouns might mean that a person is denying who they are at a very fundamental level - and then inviting and even demanding that the rest of the world accompany them into their reality.

From the above excerpt, this is apparently the type of reality that can invite possession in the worst cases.

So, it's about a whole lot more than just words, or laws, or whether you have a hotdog or a bun.

There is a similar problem with sex and oversexualization in general. If the purpose of male/female has some spiritual significance, and yet society boils it down to boinking on the front lawn like a pair of dogs, then that's a big problem.

It's especially big because dogs do what they do when they do it seemingly in a state of "innocence". They don't seem to have the capability for the same higher emotions (or whatever). They also don't seem to have to marry, get divorced, no jealousy dramas, etc. So, it's very different than animalized human sexual behavior.

And THAT then brings up the idea of OPs and such, who may be "simpler creatures". Well, okay, that's not necessarily a bad thing. We all start from nothing. But then if that's true, you sure wouldn't want to hook up with one unless you're the same "type".

Thus, I'm not at all surprised when somebody like Putin gives a speech on the need for morals, against pedophilia, against the ponerization of society, and so on. It seems to be desperately needed, especially now, and especially in many Western nations.
 
Camille Paglia asked at the presentation on her new book "Free Men, Free Women" about Jordan B. Peterson's refusal to use mandated, arbitrary gender neutral pronouns (i.e. compelled speech by the state).



https://youtu.be/pksHjddXp6k
 
I thought a bit more about the Jordan Peterson phenomenon in terms of Gurdjieff's concept of knowledge acting like matter.

First, it seems to me Peterson and his 'followers' are roughly in tune with the path that we are following here, it kind of has a similar archetypical form if you will. For example, there are 'Peterson working groups' on facebook now where people help with translation and transcipts; some people seem to instinctively realize that they have to give back something to Peterson for all the knowledge they received; Peterson has begun answering practical questions and providing guidance about many aspects of life; his followers (or some) are starting to make efforts 'sorting themselves out'/working on themselves etc. The similarities to many of the concepts taught here are striking.

However, Peterson's knowledge seems a bit shallow on many fronts, maybe it's just the nature of the way he works/communicates right now and/or a conscious decision on his part. Anyway, although he talks about many of the concepts we talk about here, it doesn't come close in terms of detail and depth when compared to the material available here. Not to mention that many topics are missing entirely in his presentations - like ponerology, the geopolitical aspects, hidden power structures, the more esoteric topics, deeper historical connections etc.

So, maybe this has to do with Gurdjieff's concept of knowledge? Here's the part from In Search of the Miraculous:

ISOTM said:
"But first of all another thing must be understood, namely, that knowledge cannot belong to all, cannot even belong to many. Such is the law. You do not understand this because you do not understand that knowledge, like everything else in the world, is material. It is material, and this means that it possesses all the characteristics of materiality. One of the first characteristics of materiality is that matter is always limited, that is to say, the quantity of matter in a given place and under given conditions is limited. Even the sand of the desert and the water of the sea is a definite and unchangeable quantity. So that, if knowledge is material, then it means that there is a definite quantity of it in a given place at a given time.

It may be said that, in the course of a certain period of time, say a century, humanity has a definite amount of knowledge at its disposal. But we know, even from an ordinary observation of life, that the matter of knowledge possesses entirely different qualities according to whether it is taken in small or large quantities.

Taken in a large quantity in a given place, that is by one man, let us say, or by a small group of men, it produces very good results; taken in a small quantity (that is, by every one of a large number of people), it gives no results at all
; or it may give even negative results, contrary to those expected.

Thus if a certain definite quantity of knowledge is distributed among millions of people, each individual will receive very little, and this small amount of knowledge will change nothing either in his life or in his understanding of things. And however large the number of people who receive this small amount of knowledge, it will change nothing in their lives, except, perhaps, to make them still more difficult.

"But if, on the contrary, large quantities of knowledge are concentrated in a small number of people, then this knowledge will give very great results. From this point of view it is far more advantageous that knowledge should be preserved among a small number of people and not dispersed among the masses.

Seen in this light, it is no wonder that Peterson and the group that seems to form around him cannot go beyond a certain depth, and the positive effects on his 'followers' are limited in a way. His group is just too big in numbers to produce the kinds of depth and effects we are seeing here. But - compared to humanity at large, Peterson's group is still very small, so maybe the 'concentration of knowledge' is still high enough to really make a difference, or at least to prevent him/them from losing the plot at some point.

Just some thoughts - if this is true, I'm not sure what it means. And I don't want to criticize Peterson here at all, I think he's a godsend in these times and his message is desperately needed. I admire his courage and his hard work. Maybe he and his group just represent a different path in the same direction, a path more suited for certain people. Maybe we can think of it as another 'access pathway' that leads to the Way - if Peterson's followers crossed the threshold of realizing how messed up they are and that they desperately need guidance and need to make great efforts to sort themselves out, that's something! And who knows where that will lead them - and him?
 
Pr. Peterson just twitted this:
For the 1st time in my career, my research grant funding was denied. I was near the top of every other application cycle.
It looks like instead of a direct confrontation, the system strikes back softly. Not unprecedented but it's interesting to see to which conclusions on the corruption of academia it may lead.
 
luc said:
Extended Q&A with Jordan Peterson:

[...video...]

Very, very insightful IMO. He also goes into many new topics here.

That was good, and an interesting format for him going forward; with people participating online or via written questions.

Jordan has a few tech'y things to overcome, yet appreciated him doing the show. Thanks for pointing it out here on the forum.
 
In this latest interview _https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJMCQ94t98k

from around 1:27:00, Peterson skirts around the edges of something he's mentioned in passing a few times now. Speaking in terms of epigenetics, he talks about how experiences turn on certain genes and relates it to the idea that we don't know what the potential of the human being could be if we used our experiences and sufferings.

He never goes very far with the idea in interviews and lectures, but I'm sure he suspects there's something pretty profound in the whole thing - perhaps taking the stories of Jesus literally, or something.
 

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