Jordan Peterson: Gender Pronouns and Free Speech War

Is this professional jealousy? That at some point Schiff somewhat helped Peterson in his carreer, but it is Peterson who is a "rock star" now and not him?

Yes, that was my impression too: jalousy and resentment. And I don't buy his "without me, JP wouldn't be a professor now" story. It seems like a self-aggrandizing attempt to rob Peterson of the authority that comes with his professor title. That's another thing leftist authoritarian followers hate so much about JP I think: he's not some right-wing fringe guy, he's a respected and successful academic. How dare he!

My speculation would be that Schiff and his ilk found Peterson kind of entertaining when he was still just another colleague, and they could feel good about themselves and their "tolerance" towards someone who has different convictions. But when he started acting and moving things based on his convictions that upset the status quo, now that can't be!!

As you said Siberia, there is no substance in Schiff's accusations. How could there be? What Peterson says now is no different than what he says in his maps of meaning lectures. The only difference is that many more people are listening and applying this knowledge to current affairs. And that threatens Schiff's ideology, which he feels deep down I guess - hence the vague accusations against JP that he is somehow dangerous. Yes, dangerous to the strange universe Schiff lives in!
 
Schiff's supposed "hit piece" turned out to be a nothing-burger, osit. All the way through the text Schiff hints that he knows some damning details about Peterson that could change people's perception of him, yet in the end Schiff actually didn't provide anything new or damning. His concerns are basically that Peterson is "too eloquent," "too interested in politics and health subjects," "too popular" etc. Schiff's bottom line is basically that Peterson may knowingly or unknowingly lead his huge group of followers in some dangerous direction at some point - is he implying that Peterson's followers are merely sheeple who cannot think for themselves and will gladly follow whatever is offered to them?


Is this professional jealousy? and not him?


Sounds a lot like it to me. Pretty sad. People are so fickle and self-interested.
 
I've noticed the following pattern:

When a population is struck with a Big New Idea, or a serious wake-up call which disturbs the train of their previous and mostly unconscious thought and behavioral direction, it might be observed in very much the same way as a rock splashing into a still pond.

There is alarm and confusion for a while, the previous assured state thrown out of coherence with the introduction of such a powerful new element. -And what I personally find most promising, people being startled into wakefulness for a moment where they ask questions and allow new ideas to percolate and affect their minds.

But then the water calms and the rock is swallowed up. The Big Division then happens.

You could observe it at the recent debating event at Toronto's Roy Thompson Hall where there was decidedly not an outpouring of enthusiastic applause as Peterson walked on stage, (just the polite regular amount, thank-you). JPB is not a hometown hero, it would seem. -And where the opposing debater used, and got away with, openly false arguments. "Google it", she said. And the audience didn't openly scoff at her ignorance and arrogance.

It would seem that there is now a large Liberal crowd which has decided to NOT listen to Peterson, to NOT explore or read his work and to NOT hear what he has to say, but to instead rely upon hit-piece articles and other authority figures for their intelligence about what he stands for. That is enough. Authoritarians don't care about the content of the authority's words so much as that it is the familiar authority which is instructing and doing their thinking for them.

Again and again, as in the Toronto Star hit piece described above, we see the curious phenomenon of writers complaining openly that Peterson is smart and knowledgeable and powerful in his arguments and that it is impossible to win a debate against him. -They don't stop to consider that perhaps they can't win a debate because they are wrong and he isn't. Peterson spent much time determining the root of this same observation and came up with his views regarding Post Modernist philosophy, (where there is no Truth, only Power). In any case, it is such a common complaint among editorial writers, -that Peterson wins arguments too much- aired without any trace of irony or embarrassment, that one begins to wonder if there isn't something a little weird going on in their heads.

That the Authoritarian responds to authority over reason might indicate some critical function in the way reasoning propagates through their brains is weaker or perhaps even missing altogether.

And their fear is well founded in one respect; there is ample, frightening evidence that weak-minded people can fall under the sway of strong speakers. This fear was at the root of the Toronto Star article; the author was soaking in it! The truth is that many people are cult victims waiting to happen. Their safety from this terror lies in collectively huddling up against the "correct" authority, (who they know instinctively will dominate them, but at least it is an authority which is the right and familiar authority). How do they know which authority is the correct one? They don't! They have to depend on the old herding system. What is everybody else doing? We all hate Jordan Peterson? Then that's the correct answer.

In any case, we are left with a remainder of people who are either too lazy to explore for themselves Peterson's message and are content to allow authority figures to dictate to them what they should believe, or they have actively decided that they don't want to know. They have chosen ignorance, have decided that it is okay to be ignorant -so long as they have also collectively decided to live in a state of cognitive dissonance, to never call it ignorance and to try to not think about what it is they are really doing: lying to themselves and avoiding responsibility for those lies.

Perhaps a better analogy is to say that the rock has knocked such people off from their perches, from "sitting on the fence" so that they must now be on one side or the other.

Truth v Lies.
 
I thought I'd add a pretty nifty quote by Peterson here since it jives pretty well with our own philosophy.

"Evil is the force that believes its knowledge is complete.”

Btw Woodsman, your post above became a Sott focus. Hope you don't mind!
 
Read where the Toronto Sun (same paper that let Schiff of his leash above) - had freelance writer, Black, calling out Bernard Schiff's authoritarian attack on Peterson for what it was "a drive-by ad hominem spray-and-pray."

I've not followed comments and the local backlash in the Toronto area, and perhaps it is resounding over the previous article by Schiff. However, having the following article come out in the same paper was hopeful, to some extent, although the Sun should never allowed Scriffy to come out and debase a so called friend in black and white - I mean, Schiff knows JP's wife and children, and JP's family knows his (intimately having shared living arrangements and eating at the same table). The fact that he would do this can only speak to who the man Schiff is, or who is behind him that he is trying to appease (or both).


BLACK: Laboured logic in former friend's diatribe against Jordan Peterson
BLACK: Laboured logic in former friend’s diatribe against Jordan Peterson

In the laboured prose of an emeritus tenured academic, Professor Bernard Schiff, no doubt accustomed to audiences held captive by their desire for a passing grade, wrote a piece titled, “I was Jordan Peterson’s strongest supporter. Now I think he’s dangerous.”

To borrow Jon Kay’s mots juste, it was an “interminable screed.”

Schiff’s opening gambit leveraged the near-universal distaste among the Toronto highbrow for evangelism by comparing Peterson’s public discourse to the proselytization of deceased American pastor Billy Graham.

Then came a drive-by ad hominem spray-and-pray, accusing Peterson simultaneously of dishonesty, deficient intellectual integrity, and of lacking common decency. Rather than utilizing the voluminous space afforded him by The Star’s editors (5,388 words) to support this malicious diatribe, he deftly parried the need for such bother by professing his former support for Peterson. Implying that since he, Peterson’s friend and mentor, had changed his position so drastically, there must have been a good reason for it.

Tellingly, mid-defamation he was unable to resist the temptation to self-aggrandize, purporting to be the sole reason Peterson was hired by the University of Toronto. This claim seems fatuous and implausible given Schiff’s own admission that Peterson had an impeccable CV, “terrific references and a pedigree that included a PhD from McGill and a five-year stint at Harvard as an assistant professor.” Yet, the university would have passed on Peterson were it not for his (Schiff’s) championship.

The piece then attempts to detail a series of retrospective warning signs that Peterson would become a dangerous demagogue — a transition Schiff believes is happening.

The first warning was Peterson once objected to the oversight of a research ethics committee. Schiff makes no suggestion of any ethical lapses and admits “there was nothing contentious about his research,” but insists Peterson’s mere objection to bureaucratic oversight was tantamount to a callous disregard for the well-being of his research subjects.

The next warning was a single teaching review panning Peterson’s course from “one astute student,” who objected to “delivered truths.” Ironically, Schiff cherry-picks one student review from an ocean of mostly “excellent” feedback to justify accusing Peterson of cherry-picking to present “conjecture as statement fact.” The reality is that a liberal arts degree, speaking as someone who earned one not so long ago, is obtained through the regurgitation of “delivered truths” – often, bigoted leftist ones.

Partway through, Schiff reveals the true nature of his grievance. His daughter is trans, making him naturally sensitive to trans issues and susceptible to misconstruing Peterson’s position.

At about the midway point, Schiff’s leaps in logic begin to create such vast expanses they can no longer even pretend to clear the gap.

If Peterson really cared about free speech, Schiff posits, he would have openly engaged in hate speech against the “already-protected groups” listed in the Human Rights Act. Since Peterson only opposed Bill C-16 it must be because he is specifically targeting trans people.

Common sense would suggest the changed variable was C-16’s “compelled speech” (i.e. the forced use of invented gender pronouns) rather than mere speech prohibition – a distinction Peterson has often cited as the catalyst for his stand.

Instead, Schiff theorizes Peterson allegedly scapegoated trans people as a means to seize power via the demagogic exploitation of society’s unconscious predisposition toward trans bashing. Schiff suggests deep-seated transphobia is evident because zoologists in the Middle Ages discriminated against the female spotted hyena on account of its penis-sized clitoris.

The piece devolves into a comprehensive literature review and meta-analysis of recent hit pieces and hatchet jobs on Peterson.

Schiff’s first 5,000 words not-so-subtly set the stage. He calls Peterson a “powerful orator,” twice. He belabours the supposed scapegoating of trans people, while entirely sidestepping the actual issue of compelled speech. He inelegantly references Madeleine Albright’s book, Fascism: A Warning, then quotes her description of the shared characteristics of authoritarian leaders, implying the description applies to Peterson. He follows with the tedious and debunked denigration of Peterson as an alt-right “darling,” activating the “dark desires” (a phrase he uses three times) of the mob. Finally, Schiff says he could not keep silent about Peterson “for historical reasons.” The last purposeful tug of the kimono’s sash reveals a desperately contrived Hitler analogy.

Throughout the piece, Schiff fleetingly raises one legitimate concern, which if he truly were Peterson’s friend, he’d have raised privately and in person. The sudden attainment of power and influence is uneasily accommodated by anyone. Peterson’s rise would be a profound shock to even the sharpest psyche. The overnight transformation from lowly professor to international celebrity and iconoclast, coupled with an instantaneous, concurrent, and sustained blast of both mass laudation and revilement would be deeply transformative.

It will be interesting to see how Peterson copes and I hope for his sake not all his friends are as fickle as Schiff.
 
I think that the original hit piece actually appeared in the Toronto Star, and the response by Black appeared in the Toronto Sun. Toronto Star is much more of a liberal, postmodernist newspaper than the Toronto Sun. From what I've seen Toronto Sun readers are supportive of Peterson.
 
I think that the original hit piece actually appeared in the Toronto Star, and the response by Black appeared in the Toronto Sun. Toronto Star is much more of a liberal, postmodernist newspaper than the Toronto Sun. From what I've seen Toronto Sun readers are supportive of Peterson.

Yes, exactly so - my mistake in quoting. Thanks for the correction and that adds more reason for the Black response (in the Sun).
 
I'm not sure if someone else already posted something similar,but here it goes.I've been re-reading bits of Political Pon. and thinking about it's relationship to society and Jordan. A particular part stood out to me on page 126 :
''During stable times which are ostensibly happy,albeit dependent upon injustice to individuals and nations doctrinaire people believe they have found a simple solution to fix the world.Such a historical period is always characterized by an impoverished psychological world view,so that a shizoidally impoverished world view does not stand out as odd during such times and is accepted as legal tender.These doctrinaire individuals characteristically manifest a certain contempt with regards to moralists then preaching the need to rediscover lost human values and to develop a richer,more psychologically appropriate world view.''

I couldn't get why he was being attacked so vehemently until I re-read that.I mean,his political opinions are very much in line with main stream,his social opinions are vanilla and his psychological expertise is aimed at helping people.Yet he's attacked as a ''Alt Right Spokesman'' left and right despite saying on multiple occasions that he is in no way affiliated with them.Moreover it's pretty easy to see how he differs from them just by doing a little reading/watching.

The problem arises from the fact that he complicates a simple doctrine and asks people to think at least a little,so then you have people writing articles like ''Jordan Peterson,the dumb person's smart person'' and all that.He is literally preaching the need to rediscover lost human values in a time of psychological impoverishment which is exactly why dogmatic authoritarians display such contempt for him.
 
The problem arises from the fact that he complicates a simple doctrine and asks people to think at least a little,so then you have people writing articles like ''Jordan Peterson,the dumb person's smart person'' and all that.He is literally preaching the need to rediscover lost human values in a time of psychological impoverishment which is exactly why dogmatic authoritarians display such contempt for him.

Indeed, and thanks for bringing up that quote from PP!

I'm finally reading "inside the criminal mind" and it struck me how similar the current "radical left" ideology is to the workings of the criminal mind: it teaches people to always blame others, to play the victim, to feel entitled, to resent the necessity for hard and honest work, to "feel oppressed" by traditional values and ethics, to glorify misbehavior, violence and narcissism etc. etc. It's the direct opposite of Peterson's "12 rules" and simple common sense, and it essentially produces a society of "criminal minds". No wonder they are so upset about Peterson! It's a tragedy.
 
He is literally preaching the need to rediscover lost human values in a time of psychological impoverishment which is exactly why dogmatic authoritarians display such contempt for him.
Not just the authoritarians - but the very 'People' themselves too! No-one likes to be told to take stock of ones Self and have someone remind them to actually 'think' in a meaningful way for the sake of personal internal development. 'The People' have come to take great comfort in their prejudices preconceptions and narcissism... They have come to love wishful thinking, to create and indulge in make-believe constructs about their fantasy personas, to keep buoyant their egos: They want flattery - not constructive criticism... They want 'eazy - not 'work'!

To quote George Orwell 1984:
“War is Peace / Freedom is Slavery / Ignorance is Strength
 
Even though Dr. Peterson has provided me personally with useful, universal, down-to-earth insights, which I instinctively know to be true, and for which I am very grateful, it think it is still important to critically examine even apparently true and universal messages.

Peterson's ethics/suggestions/rules are, by his own admission, true enough for the majority of people. The key words here are "enough" and "majority". This would imply that they are not fully true or are incomplete, and even if they were fully true and complete, they would not apply to each and every individual.

Here is one (rare) example of him immediately qualifying one of his general statements. He said about marriage:

Our culture devalues marriage, and that's a very bad idea. Marriage is a third of your life, and maybe more. And kids are a third of your life. And your life outside of kids and marriage is a third of your life, approximately speaking. To miss any of that is a massive, massive mistake. Now, having said that, I will also say that for some people, missing one or more of those is necessary because they have a reason. Maybe the are brilliantly creative artists, and they need to devote themselves entirely to their career. Or they are outstanding in some way, and so they need/can justify the sacrifice one part of that triad of Being to another part. But generally speaking, it's a very dangerous thing and it shouldn't be done.

Here in our forum we have always emphasized the "Law of Three", the "Third Force": "There is good, there is evil, and there is the specific situation/context determining which is which."

Nuanced thinking, reading between the lines, trying to see the 'third force', holding off on hard and fast conclusions, takes a lot of energy and patience and is therefore not done frequently. But I would argue that it is a mistake to ever stop such a high-level thinking process. Not just when it comes to Peterson's message, but anywhere.

We also must not forget that Peterson emerged into public awareness because of a war that he took on himself to fight: compelled speech legislation coming from identity politics. We must not forget that this is the context of him saying and doing things.
 
Even though Dr. Peterson has provided me personally with useful, universal, down-to-earth insights, which I instinctively know to be true, and for which I am very grateful, it think it is still important to critically examine even apparently true and universal messages.

Peterson's ethics/suggestions/rules are, by his own admission, true enough for the majority of people. The key words here are "enough" and "majority". This would imply that they are not fully true or are incomplete, and even if they were fully true and complete, they would not apply to each and every individual.

Here is one (rare) example of him immediately qualifying one of his general statements. He said about marriage:



Here in our forum we have always emphasized the "Law of Three", the "Third Force": "There is good, there is evil, and there is the specific situation/context determining which is which."

Nuanced thinking, reading between the lines, trying to see the 'third force', holding off on hard and fast conclusions, takes a lot of energy and patience and is therefore not done frequently. But I would argue that it is a mistake to ever stop such a high-level thinking process. Not just when it comes to Peterson's message, but anywhere.

We also must not forget that Peterson emerged into public awareness because of a war that he took on himself to fight: compelled speech legislation coming from identity politics. We must not forget that this is the context of him saying and doing things.

It seems clear that Peterson has a "mission", and his abilities and drive are directed towards fulfilling that mission. He, like everyone else, does not have the whole picture. It is the tendency to look to someone else for the 'whole picture' that it the problem. We should simply stop doing that. Ain't no one gonna "save us". The sooner we accept that truth, the better, primarily for ourselves.
 
It is the tendency to look to someone else for the 'whole picture' that is the problem. We should simply stop doing that. Ain't no one gonna "save us". The sooner we accept that truth, the better, primarily for ourselves.

I would even go so far as to say that waiting for someone else to fix everything pretty much guarantees that we're missing a hugely important lesson: What we do counts a lot - not for the whole world, but for our own growth.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of "leaders" in this world work like this:
  • Here's how you should act - but I've never actually implemented that in my own life
  • Here's how you should handle that situation - but I've never been able to successfully do it myself
  • Here's where you've gone wrong in life - but my life is a terrible mess
  • Here's some brilliant wisdom - and now here's a totally wrong idea that you should completely ignore because I'm a moron
Then we have lots of fun because eventually, we discover that our beloved leaders don't know what they're doing. So, then we can get pissed off at them for being hypocrites, not knowing enough, etc! Isn't this fun?

The real problem is that we fail to accept these flaws in others because we know that we ourselves are screwed up. It's like, "Damn you for not having it all together so that you can solve all of my problems for me!"

Well, what about ME solving my problems so that I'm then in a better position to help YOU?! I may be strong where you are weak, and vice versa.

That's not to say that no one ever needs help or that none of us should ever look up to or admire another, but dang... We sure do get it wrong most of the time.

We even wait for somebody else to tell us what to do because we're terrified of making a mistake. Never mind that the only way we learn is by making mistakes and then correcting our course.

And it's all basically just narcissism.

Ya know, I was thinking about getting old the other day. And then I started thinking about death.

What would happen if I keeled over tomorrow?

Certainly, there would be a few people who would be very sad - for awhile. But then life would go on.

The mail lady would come as usual, the grass would grow, the birds would keep chirping. I would not be remembered as having saved the world, no one would erect a statue in my honor, there wouldn't be a national holiday with my name on it, and no high school would be named after me. In short, hardly anyone would remember me even in the near term.

Pick a famous person, even... Do you remember the day that person died? Yeah, me neither - except in a few extremely rare cases, like JFK.

Cheerful, right? Actually, yes.

Because ya know what? While your life is about what you do and who you touch, it's also about what you learn and how you grow. That may even be the ONLY reason for being here. If at the end of the day your passing won't even be a blip on the overall 3D radar screen, then clearly the purpose of your life as a soul here IS mostly about you... But how it's about you matters.

So the only choice to make then is if you want to be:
  1. a narcissist
  2. somebody who did the best they could, learned as much as they could, and tried to contribute something to the bettering of life, the universe, and everything while they were here
If you take a pig on a farm and dress him up in farmer's clothes, he still ain't no farmer. That pig can spend his whole life pretending or trying to be a farmer, or he can be the best damn pig he can possibly be.

Naturally, that would mean learning how not to be turned into bacon and eaten - if he wants to prolong his stay and learn and do as much as possible.

In summary: OINK! OINK!
:rockon:
 
Some friends and I attended Jordan's book tour stop in Atlanta last night, which coincidentally was his birthday. His talk lasted about an hour where he discussed a few of his rules from the book and then he did about a 30 minute Q&A. The talk centered on Rule 5, which is about why you shouldn't let your kids do anything that makes you dislike them, Rule 11, which is about why you should let kids skateboard in the street, and Rule 1 about competency and hierarchies.

I thought his decision to focus on children and people and why there is no such thing as an oppressive patriarchy was a very good choice for the talk. First, he's giving a talk in the conservative South so discussing family, relationships and child rearing seemed fitting and secondly, because it dealt with practical examples for the audience to understand. There seemed to me to be a wide age group of attendees and plenty of women although probably not as many men. I'd say maybe 60-40 men. Since Rule 5 was my a favorite chapter of mine it was great to hear him talk about that. As he puts it, we're teaching our children to be likable adults at a very early age through parenting and likability can certainly correlate to success and happiness, while unlikability could easily lead to anti-social tendencies and down the path of the criminal mind (my words, not his).

It was really great to listen to him deconstruct the idea of the oppressive male patriarchy, and I was looking at some of the young adult women near me to see their reactions to his pointing out the ridiciulousness of such an idea. For the record, there was not a single heckle or disruptor. Jordan pointed out that the people at the top of a hierarchy are there because of competence, not because of power and will. The best electrician is as the top of the electrician's hierarchy because he is competent, not all-powerful. He's talked about this before many times so it's probably nothing knew to all of us but still great to hear it spoken out loud.

It was also his birthday yesterday, and he got sang happy birthday twice actually. One was right when he came out after Dave Rubin opened for him. I managed to record that one:


Then at the end of the talk Dave Rubin asked us to sing him happy birthday again and they also brought him out a steak birthday cake with candles! JP recorded that with his phone and put in on his Twitter:

All in all it was a great time, Jordan is an excellent orator who moves like a cat onstage and really uses his hands and arms a lot when speaking. I came away from this talk even more enamored with his down-to-earth style and intellligence. I also took a few pics during the show that I'll attach.

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