Jordan Peterson: Gender Pronouns and Free Speech War

[Scottie]

I wonder if there will be an issue with who is chosen as number 1 and number 2 ? There could be discrimination involved in these choices.

Good point! Maybe it should be Parent Xe and Parent Xe?

 

[Possibility of Being]

I wonder if there will be an issue with who is chosen as number 1 and number 2 ? There could be discrimination involved in these choices.

Exactly! I can't believe they make the evil dominance hierarchy so obvious!

 

[Hi_Henry]

Good point! Maybe it should be Parent Xe and Parent Xe?

Well, we can at best just laugh it off. Xe xe xe xe ....

 

[herondancer]

What lunacy. I wonder how the children are labeled on the form. Unit 1, unit 2 . . . . .

Hopefully the majority of French who still can think will kick back against the nonsense.

 

[mabar]

What lunacy. I wonder how the children are labeled on the form. Unit 1, unit 2 . . . . .

Hopefully the majority of French who still can think will kick back against the nonsense.

Sort of, ... the new one is not that clearer either

After the controversy, "parent 1, parent 2" already buried and replaced by "father-mother-father-father-mother"?

After the controversy over the depersonalisation of the forms, aimed at removing the references to father and mother of the child and replacing them with "parent 1, parent 2", LREM deputy Anne-Christine Lang wants to rewrite the voted measure.

Barely voted, already amended: the law passed by Jean-Michel Blanquer on sur «l'école de la confiance», , providing for the disappearance of the mentions "father" and "mother" in favour of "parent 1" and "parent 2", could be reviewed. Faced with the controversy surrounding this last provision, the co-rapporteur of the bill and Member of Parliament for La République en marche (LREM) Anne-Christine Lang, wants to rewrite the measure.

When the law comes back at second reading, the amendment by Mrs LREM should provide for the right reference to be circled around, thus adding the words "father-mother-father-father-mother" to the administrative documents.

"This will avoid the problem of parental hierarchy," she said on Twitter on February 15.

Here is the proposal I will make;
The idea is that everyone can find their way around and that there is no hierarchy or discrimination.#parent1Parent2#Standard of trust

Forget "Parent 1-Parent 2", it will be "Father-Mother-Father Mother"! Oubliez «Parent 1–Parent 2», ce sera «Père-Mère-Père-Mère»! via @lopinion_fr- Anne-Christine Lang (@AChristine_Lang) 15 February 2019

On February 12, the National Assembly adopted an amendment by an LREM deputy, Valérie Petit, enshrining homoparentality in school forms (for example, for canteen registration or school trip permits). This was to lead to the replacement of the words "father and mother" by "parent 1 and parent 2". An amendment that was voted by the majority against the opinion of the Minister of Education Jean-Michel Blanquer and the co-rapporteur of the draft law Anne-Christine Lang.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

Anne-Christine Lang, co-rapporteur of the bill "for a school of trust" will propose an amendment at second reading of the text. It will be necessary to surround the right "combination"!

the facts -
Jean-Michel Blanquer's "School of Confidence" bill will be adopted by the National Assembly on Tuesday, February 19

In order to take into account the situations of families "in their diversity", the deputies adopted, against the government's advice, an LREM amendment to replace the terms "father" and "mother" by "parent 1" and "parent 2". This amendment, introducing homoparentality into school forms, caused strong protests and embarrassment to the government. In a statement issued on Thursday, the CEF (Conférence des évêques de France) denounced, for example, the "administrative aseptisation of family life" which presides over this provision and hopes for a return to "common sense".

"There is still time left in the parliamentary debate for the government, with Jean-Michel Blanquer in the lead, for MPs and senators to regain some common sense and avoid removing explicit references to fathers and mothers from the school environment," explains Ludovine de La Rochère, president of La Manif Pour Tous. This unnecessary measure would be all the more regrettable as education professionals regularly and rightly declare themselves willing to strengthen the links between the school and families. "She recalls that in January 2013, Christiane Taubira said: "What is certain is that we will not do as in the Netherlands, we will not retain the terms parent 1 or parent 2".

Discrimination against parents. Co-rapporteur of the bill "for a school of trust", Anne-Christine Lang explains how to understand the requests of parents who feel discriminated against. "With Jean-Michel Blanquer, we did not want this to be enshrined in law, but that it be left to local authorities to decide. Some of them already apply the Parent1-Parent2 rule. The amendment tabled by Valérie Petit, LREM North MP, introducing Parent 1-Parent 2 is unlikely to be adopted by the Senate. Anne-Christine Lang's, on the other hand, who proposes to substitute "Father-Mother-Parent-Father-Mother" for her, has a good chance of being so. This is not a step back, "it will avoid the problem of parental hierarchy," she explains. The member also recalled that in the National Assembly, the idea of talking about "pre-elementary school" rather than "nursery school" was also raised. We avoided the worst!


Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

 

[Hi_Henry]

What lunacy. I wonder how the children are labeled on the form. Unit 1, unit 2 . . . . .

Hopefully the majority of French who still can think will kick back against the nonsense.

If someone had the time and patients to continue on with this I's say attack the numbering. This labeling "so as to not offend anyone" could be ridiculed ad infinitum. I could argue that "I am not a number" and am offended,

If you have not seen the TV series "The Prisoner" DO IT !!! You will not regret it.

Patrick McGoohan (former British spy) was so far ahead of his time "telegraphing" a message of things to come through his TV series that one wonders what information he had access to and why he was allowed to put his ideas on the screen.

 

[herondancer]

Sort of, ... the new one is not that clearer either

No, it isn't. "it will avoid the problem of parental hierarchy,"

The fools in the bureaucracy are tripping over themselves trying to make everyone happy by bowing to the smallest, loudest minority. If they're going to go nuts with the labeling, what about grandparents raising children, or other relatives?

What is the point of the legislature anyway? What is the rationale given for collecting the information? How does it affect the education the kids are (hopefully) getting? Will a preponderance of 'homoparentality' (what a word) in a district alter the curriculum offered?

 

[Voyageur]

The fools in the bureaucracy are tripping over themselves trying to make everyone happy by bowing to the smallest, loudest minority.

It has been alive and sick in Canada; passports and forms of all types, incrementally and inter-provincially for awhile now.

"Maybe one day this government will decide to cancel each and every Mother's Day or a Father's Day," he said.

or replaced it with Parent Day 1 and Parent Day 2 celebrations, whatever the heck that would look like.

This even goes back to 2011 as the Daily Mail reports.

A quick search of Gov. forms seem to be already following this P1 & P2 model in schools: Saskatchewan Gov. I'm guessing that it will just keep coming and people will eventually become immune to the language and new generations will not even think about it.

 

[mabar]

A quick search of Gov. forms seem to be already following this P1 & P2 model in schools: Saskatchewan Gov. I'm guessing that it will just keep coming and people will eventually become immune to the language and new generations will not even think about it.

I went to find as well here (Mexico), and suprise, surprise! P1 & P2 model is following not just in schools, also birth certificate, social security forms since a couple of years back ... there was a complain by citizens in Chihuahua state in 2017, nowadays, (had not seen in other states) there are two formats, one retaining the traditional form that includes data on maternal and paternal parents and grandparents, and the other as the image below. (First surname, second surname of the data of the registered person and parental affiliation data)

 

[herondancer]

... there was a complain by citizens in Chihuahua state in 2017, nowadays, (had not seen in other states) there are two formats, one retaining the traditional form that includes data on maternal and paternal parents and grandparents, and the other as the image below. (First surname, second surname of the data of the registered person and parental affiliation data)

Good to know a few regions of Mexico haven't succumbed. The choice of forms is a good compromise. I doubt though, that the really indoctrinated countries would even think about offering it. I'd bet the majority of normal people would opt for the traditional form. What a resounding rebuke to libtard bureaucracy that would be.

 

[mabar]

Good to know a few regions of Mexico haven't succumbed. The choice of forms is a good compromise. I doubt though, that the really indoctrinated countries would even think about offering it. I'd bet the majority of normal people would opt for the traditional form. What a resounding rebuke to libtard bureaucracy that would be.

The choice of forms may create confusion, sounds good, but in the long run, I think they will change it to the federal one (which is the P1, P2 form) without people noticing it,- It may be possible that for any public or private procedure only the federal one is requested, the traditional will become useless, as it usually happens, for a long time I had my birth certificate handwritten in an official copy until they began to request the updated (digital) so then, I went to request it to be able to continue with the procedure that I was doing.

On the other had, I found a mexican -Handbook for the use of inclusive and gender-sensitive language https://www.gob.mx/cms/uploads/atta...te_con_perspectiva_de_g_nero-octubre-2016.pdf I have been looking at it, although, I should pay attention by its title, as a mexican woman who had been relegated to second place since I remember by the spanish sexist language, in my very particular point of view, I had been agreeing with what I had been reading so far ... I still don't finish reading it. Even, understanding that it may be a step to a pathological level as we have observed in recent years

 

[herondancer]

On the other had, I found a mexican -Handbook for the use of inclusive and gender-sensitive language https://www.gob.mx/cms/uploads/atta...te_con_perspectiva_de_g_nero-octubre-2016.pdf I have been looking at it, although, I should pay attention by its title, as a mexican woman who had been relegated to second place since I remember by the spanish sexist language, in my very particular point of view, I had been agreeing with what I had been reading so far ... I still don't finish reading it. Even, understanding that it may be a step to a pathological level as we have observed in recent years

Good lord, the gender police have been busy. The Latino aspect of this has been off my radar. It will be interesting to see what you think after finishing the manual.

All the romance languages do have the problem of having gender built right into them. France had a try at adjusting to satisfy the activists, but it didn't go over so well.

Compelled speech madness spreads to France: French language to be 'corrected' with bizarre gender-neutral 'inclusive writing'
'Gender-neutral' French banned from government papers

Does the manual have any suggestions for Spanish that aren't insane?

 

[Chu]

Does the manual have any suggestions for Spanish that aren't insane?

I don't know about that manual, but all the suggestions I've heard of so far are totally ridiculous (and the same in French). You would have to alter the entire grammatical system and vocabulary just to make those people happy. They might as well impose Chinese or something as a new language.

 

[herondancer]

I don't know about that manual, but all the suggestions I've heard of so far are totally ridiculous (and the same in French). You would have to alter the entire grammatical system and vocabulary just to make those people happy. They might as well impose Chinese or something as a new language.

I kinda thought it would be that way. You'd have to dynamite out the bedrock of the romance languages to make them gender neutral. Imposing Chinese would be easier! I hope this language movement dies a quick and deserved death. They've already messed up English enough.

 

[mabar]

Good lord, the gender police have been busy. The Latino aspect of this has been off my radar. It will be interesting to see what you think after finishing the manual.

All the romance languages do have the problem of having gender built right into them. France had a try at adjusting to satisfy the activists, but it didn't go over so well.

Does the manual have any suggestions for Spanish that aren't insane?

Fortunately, this manual –although the tittle may confuse by all the insanity about gender pronouns that we had seen, is about the changing to the use of inclusive language (inclusive referring to including women) in the written and oral practices of public institutions, especially those in contact with the population.

It was interesting to read that the Spanish language is not sexist by itself but that it has been the sexist use of Spanish language.

In synthesis, and according to Teresa Meana,13 "the effects produced in language by sexism and androcentrism could be grouped into two phenomena. On the one hand, silence on the existence of women, invisibility, concealment, exclusion. On the other hand, the expression of contempt, of hatred, of the consideration of women as subordinates, as subjects of second category, as subordinates or dependents of men".

deepl.com/translator

The expressions/suggestions are not at all insane, are normal, like this ones

-----Do not use the feminine for the private or that denote possession of women: "Peter's wife," "He gave her the hand of his daughter”.
People do not own each other.
-----Do not use stereotyped phrases that consolidate traditional roles: "The hen protects her chicks", "If she wanted to work, why did she have children?
---- Do not use the masculine as universal: "The world belongs to men", "The origin of men", "The young people of today (in masculine)".

Later on, in the use of the neutral, and in the formation of the masculine and feminine we will see that the masculine is not neutral.
And of course, it is not neutral.

---- We must avoid the silence that is invisibilization, and stop using generic assumptions that are masculine:
----"Students (masculine) who have not enrolled", "Citizens(masculine) who went to vote", "At that time the man was nomadic".
----Do not engage in semantic leaps by beginning to speak in masculine as if it were generic and continue with a phrase that refers only to masculine:
"Mexicans (masculine) always travel with their wives and children. "The indigenous (masculine) people who work the land count on the help of the women of the community.
---- Do not manifest treatment formulas that imply inferiority, underestimation or undervaluation:
"Fox (first last name) y Martita (diminutive of the proper name)", "Placido Domingo and the Caballé", "El deputy González y la deputy Paty".

In short, it is all about not reproducing what is not correct, what is false, what discriminates, undervalues or does not recognize reality, whether through proverbs, sexist stereotypes, idioms or words that consolidate a negative social construction for women.
...
Male pronouns and adverbs can be changed to other words that have the same meaning and can be used without marking a specific gender. For example:
----At Christmas, always going to visit his own (los suyos-masculine) Not recommended
----At Christmas, will always visit his/her family Recommended

…
The Semantic Leap
It is common to use masculine as a generic in a sentence to refer to men and women, and then to refer to only masculine particularities. This is called semantic leap. A more academic definition would be:
When in speech the masculine is used as a generic in a first sentence and immediately afterwards, the same masculine is used but, this time, in a strictly masculine sense. A few examples will help us to understand this better:

Semantic Leap: All workers(masculine) will be able to attend dinner with their wives.
Alternative: Staff(neutral) may attend dinner with their partner.

Semantic Leap: Students (masculine) may not receive female visitors in dormitories.
Alternative: No visitors (neutral) are allowed in the dormitories.

...
Neutral Gender. 1. m. Gram. In some Indo-European languages, that of nouns not classified as masculine or feminine and that of the pronouns that represent them or that designate sets without notion of person. In Spanish there are no neutral nouns, nor are there special neutral forms in the flexion of the adjective; only the article, the personal pronoun of the third person, the demonstrative pronouns and some other pronouns have neutral forms differentiated in the singular.
In our language there is only, as neutral, the article "lo--it", the demonstrative "ese--that", "este--this" and "aquel--that one", the third person pronoun and the reflexive "se" and "si".

Inhabitants (Los habitantes-masculine) are never happy with transport Not recommended
The population (La población-neutral)is dissatisfied with transport Recommended

…
Generics
We believe that the best way to give real meaning to the representation of people and recover the visibility of women in society is to use the feminine and the masculine. In other words, to name girls and boys, women and men in the same way that we name people when we want to make clear who we are referring to. We don't usually say "the presidents met to talk about..." but we say "the president of Chile and the president of Costa Rica met" or "Mr. Ruiz, representative of...". with Mr. Melendez, representative of..."35

However, in the face of resistance and the arguments that it is cumbersome and cumbersome to say, ladies and gentlemen, we have other alternatives in our language which we can use and which do not make invisible. And they are genuinely inclusive. These are the generic ones. Be careful, generic is not "men". That is masculine plural and represents only one collective: that of men.

Childhood instead of children (los niños-masculine)
Population instead of inhabitants (los habitantes-masculine)
Citizenship instead of citizens (los ciudadanos-masculine)
Offspring instead of children (los hijos-masculine)
Staff instead of workers (los trabajadores-masculine)

…
deepl.com/translator

There have been requests to the RAE (Real Academia Española-an institution with its own legal personality whose main mission is to ensure that the changes experienced by the Spanish language in its constant adaptation to the needs of its speakers do not break the essential unity that it maintains throughout the Hispanic area La institución.) to include men and women in the plurals (todes, tod@s, todxs instead of todos/todas---all, everyone) to which had been rejected RAE rechaza la palabra “todes” como lenguaje inclusivo

I had seen an RAE request in Changeorg for “Recognize an official gender neutral pronoun in Spanish” which will be rejected, due to what Chu mentions, the whole grammatical system and vocabulary would have to be changed, I doubt very much that the RAE (and millions of people) will get into that problem.