zak
The Living Force
Opening a parenthesis
Hello irjO,
Maybe this topic has a proper thread, or maybe you can open one yourself, to discuss and connect a couple of things.
Closing the parenthesis.
Julius Caesar and Mithraism
- Thread starter Pierre
- Start date
Hello irjO,
Maybe this topic has a proper thread, or maybe you can open one yourself, to discuss and connect a couple of things.
Closing the parenthesis.
I have not had time to read through most of this fascinating thread, but perhaps this may be of interest:
Cows are not just sacred to Hindus, they are a part of all Indo-European religions. From the Greeks and Romans to the Celts and Vikings all of them worshipped and sacrificed cows. This comes from a sacred primordial cow sacrifice in Proto-Indo-European myth which is quite similar to the Zoroastrian Gavaevodata, the Hindu Kamadhenu also known as Surabhi (सुरभि), or the Old Norse Auðumbla. The sacrifice of the cow itself by the first three men is very similar to the sacrifice of the bull by Mithras. The divine Aryan twins have parallels in Roman (Romulus and Remus) and Anglo-Saxon (Hengest and Horsa) origin myths. All this shows that the cow is the most important and sacred of animals.
For what it's worth, I really like this "Survive the Jive" guy, and have watched quite a few of his podcasts. Sadly, it's only a very short video.
I'm looking forward to catching up here!
Cows are not just sacred to Hindus, they are a part of all Indo-European religions. From the Greeks and Romans to the Celts and Vikings all of them worshipped and sacrificed cows. This comes from a sacred primordial cow sacrifice in Proto-Indo-European myth which is quite similar to the Zoroastrian Gavaevodata, the Hindu Kamadhenu also known as Surabhi (सुरभि), or the Old Norse Auðumbla. The sacrifice of the cow itself by the first three men is very similar to the sacrifice of the bull by Mithras. The divine Aryan twins have parallels in Roman (Romulus and Remus) and Anglo-Saxon (Hengest and Horsa) origin myths. All this shows that the cow is the most important and sacred of animals.
For what it's worth, I really like this "Survive the Jive" guy, and have watched quite a few of his podcasts. Sadly, it's only a very short video.
I'm looking forward to catching up here!
Sol Logos
The Living Force
Given that the main prototype of Jesus in the New Testament is Julius Caesar, along with other connections like the Roman Mithra, I was wondering if the Latin derivative of "Jesus" could be something like "gessi ius," which translates to "I did the right thing? Attached a google translation.
Attachments
Sol Logos
The Living Force
The pronunciation of "gessi" apparently starts with a "j" sound, like how many would say "Jesus."
I was also looking at other translations for "gessi ius." It could also mean: I carry or hold the right. But holding the right to do what?
"Caesar" was the progenitor of words like "Keiser," "Kaiser," "Tsar," or "Czar," which are titles indicative of a right to rule.
Anyway could very well be a sound coincidence and nothing more. But sparked my curiosity nonetheless!
Cassandra94
Padawan Learner
I havent read the full thread yet but I found this beautiful gem as the TV in the background had a commercial for Little Caesars. Really was perfect synchronicity and didn't know where else I could post it. Hope it is okay here. Enjoy!
Benjamin
The Living Force
Whew! All caught up on this excellent thread! Thank you Pierre for starting it.
I noticed that there is a lot of 'fire' related to Mithraism but there's also 'water' in the form of the Pirate story and it's this element that I'd like to share a few ideas that emerged while reading.
There are a lot of references to Attis and Apis here and when I was making a mess of the rooster thread, I stumbled upon a god named Priapus. The 'histories' of these two are very similar:
Priapus apparently emerges out of the Greek colony of Lampsacus (originally known as Pityusa and is currently Lapseki, Canakkale, Turkey), Hellespont, Anatolia c. 400 BCE. I'm thinking Priapus is some kind of offshoot or overwriting of Attis and Apis because Priapus has nothing to do with the bull and is instead linked with the donkey. He was also a patron god of (merchant?) sailors.
As an example, in this wall fresco from the House of the Vettii in Pompeii, Priapus is depicted wearing a Phrygian cap and sandals. He also carries what looks like a curved blade (harpe?) or a drumstick, and holds a scale in his right hand that weighs a (more then one?) bag (of gold?, obtained by plunder?) against his 'donkeyness'. There is also a thyrsus leaning against the wall beside him which is a little difficult to see.
There have been a lot of images posted of the Phrygian cap but seeing these two hit me with an idea:
It struck me that they looked like the prow of some Roman ships. This image shows a Roman bireme.
Two examples of the Quinquereme (c. 250 BCE- c. 150 CE)
And some examples on coins minted by Pompey.
There's also this from the Priapus wiki:
The word 'pri-' is the PIE root of 'to love' "...it developed derivatives with the sense "free, not in bondage," perhaps via "beloved" or "friend" being applied to the free members of one's clan (as opposed to slaves)."
The pileus is associated with emancipated Roman slaves. The Phrygian cap was first used by Iranian peoples (from the wiki) and was possibly worn by the Magi.
I really doubt there's some kind of connection between the Phrygian cap and the prow (from the PIE root 'per-' "forward," hence "in front of, before, first") of a ship. But I did wonder if maybe the Roman military followed Attis while the Pirates followed Priapus? Nevertheless, it made me think about water.
My mind wandered a bit and I started to think about water references like women at wells, the lady of the lake, Jason and the Argonautes with Medea (also the tale of the Khalkotauroi- fire-breathing oxen), fishers of men, etc. When I came to 'fishers of men', my mind played with the word fishers quickly changing it to fissures. For whatever reason, I looked up fissure on etymonline and got this:
Turns out, fissure shares the same root as bait and boat.
Now, If you haven't watched these videos, please do because it's fundamental to my next idea, though this idea may already be common knowledge in which case I'm playing catch-up and am I on the right track?
In the past, I've read of the sky/space being compared to an ocean. When it came to the observational astronomy of Babylonian times, is it possible that they saw something like what's in the videos?
This is one of two images of steatite (soapstone) 'seal-amulets' that I came across from Wikimedia Commons. There was no info attached to them but I eventually tracked them down to their original location in the book Mohenjo-Daro and the Indus Civilization, Vol. III (Sir John Hubert Marshall, 1931, p.184 (#36)). Many of you have probably seen these and recognize the 'Bull of Heaven', in this case, in it's 'unicorn' form.
Have a look at the neck. This is a bull. It doesn't have a mane, but looking at the bulls (Zebu) from Pakistan they do have a lot of skin that bunches up on their necks causing folds. And that could be the end of it, just an artistic rendering. But in an 'as above so below' scenario, I wonder if those folds represent ripples and waves, as shown in the videos, in the 'ocean of heaven'? Can you imagine a sky full of billions of points of light against a black background with these flowing ripples distorting the 'surface of the water'? Assuming it was seen at night, that would be an incredible sight. Perhaps there was a comet in the sky at the time which would appear to 'ripple' as well. Maybe there was a meteor shower at or around the same time. Dust-load the atmosphere and with light-refraction the ripples might look like a shimmering oil-slick. Idk.
As a side note, the second symbol from the left in the top register looks sorta similar to the plasma shapes found on p.106 of CatHoM.
Then there is this excerpt from the Feb. 22, 2020 session about the original video posted the SOTT article from Feb. 18, 2020:
In this post Laura quotes:
Perhaps the mithraeum was like a psychomanteum or had something to do with portals?
A final thought regarding the Farnese Globe and how the constellations are reversed. When it comes to writing with a pen in my left hand, I find it's easier to write the words backwards (mirror writing). Not that helpful.
It also made an appearance on the head of Gruffi Gummi on Disney's The Gummi Bears:
I noticed that there is a lot of 'fire' related to Mithraism but there's also 'water' in the form of the Pirate story and it's this element that I'd like to share a few ideas that emerged while reading.
There are a lot of references to Attis and Apis here and when I was making a mess of the rooster thread, I stumbled upon a god named Priapus. The 'histories' of these two are very similar:
| Attis | Priapus |
| - Phrygian garden god | - Troas garden god |
| - semi-divine | - minor god banished to Earth |
| - castrated himself | - cursed with impotence at birth |
| - a shepherd | - raised by shepherds |
Priapus apparently emerges out of the Greek colony of Lampsacus (originally known as Pityusa and is currently Lapseki, Canakkale, Turkey), Hellespont, Anatolia c. 400 BCE. I'm thinking Priapus is some kind of offshoot or overwriting of Attis and Apis because Priapus has nothing to do with the bull and is instead linked with the donkey. He was also a patron god of (merchant?) sailors.
As an example, in this wall fresco from the House of the Vettii in Pompeii, Priapus is depicted wearing a Phrygian cap and sandals. He also carries what looks like a curved blade (harpe?) or a drumstick, and holds a scale in his right hand that weighs a (more then one?) bag (of gold?, obtained by plunder?) against his 'donkeyness'. There is also a thyrsus leaning against the wall beside him which is a little difficult to see.
There have been a lot of images posted of the Phrygian cap but seeing these two hit me with an idea:
It struck me that they looked like the prow of some Roman ships. This image shows a Roman bireme.
Two examples of the Quinquereme (c. 250 BCE- c. 150 CE)
And some examples on coins minted by Pompey.
There's also this from the Priapus wiki:
The word 'pri-' is the PIE root of 'to love' "...it developed derivatives with the sense "free, not in bondage," perhaps via "beloved" or "friend" being applied to the free members of one's clan (as opposed to slaves)."
The pileus is associated with emancipated Roman slaves. The Phrygian cap was first used by Iranian peoples (from the wiki) and was possibly worn by the Magi.
I really doubt there's some kind of connection between the Phrygian cap and the prow (from the PIE root 'per-' "forward," hence "in front of, before, first") of a ship. But I did wonder if maybe the Roman military followed Attis while the Pirates followed Priapus? Nevertheless, it made me think about water.
My mind wandered a bit and I started to think about water references like women at wells, the lady of the lake, Jason and the Argonautes with Medea (also the tale of the Khalkotauroi- fire-breathing oxen), fishers of men, etc. When I came to 'fishers of men', my mind played with the word fishers quickly changing it to fissures. For whatever reason, I looked up fissure on etymonline and got this:
Turns out, fissure shares the same root as bait and boat.
Now, If you haven't watched these videos, please do because it's fundamental to my next idea, though this idea may already be common knowledge in which case I'm playing catch-up and am I on the right track?
In the past, I've read of the sky/space being compared to an ocean. When it came to the observational astronomy of Babylonian times, is it possible that they saw something like what's in the videos?
This is one of two images of steatite (soapstone) 'seal-amulets' that I came across from Wikimedia Commons. There was no info attached to them but I eventually tracked them down to their original location in the book Mohenjo-Daro and the Indus Civilization, Vol. III (Sir John Hubert Marshall, 1931, p.184 (#36)). Many of you have probably seen these and recognize the 'Bull of Heaven', in this case, in it's 'unicorn' form.
Have a look at the neck. This is a bull. It doesn't have a mane, but looking at the bulls (Zebu) from Pakistan they do have a lot of skin that bunches up on their necks causing folds. And that could be the end of it, just an artistic rendering. But in an 'as above so below' scenario, I wonder if those folds represent ripples and waves, as shown in the videos, in the 'ocean of heaven'? Can you imagine a sky full of billions of points of light against a black background with these flowing ripples distorting the 'surface of the water'? Assuming it was seen at night, that would be an incredible sight. Perhaps there was a comet in the sky at the time which would appear to 'ripple' as well. Maybe there was a meteor shower at or around the same time. Dust-load the atmosphere and with light-refraction the ripples might look like a shimmering oil-slick. Idk.
As a side note, the second symbol from the left in the top register looks sorta similar to the plasma shapes found on p.106 of CatHoM.
Then there is this excerpt from the Feb. 22, 2020 session about the original video posted the SOTT article from Feb. 18, 2020:
In this post Laura quotes:
Perhaps the mithraeum was like a psychomanteum or had something to do with portals?
A final thought regarding the Farnese Globe and how the constellations are reversed. When it comes to writing with a pen in my left hand, I find it's easier to write the words backwards (mirror writing). Not that helpful.
It also made an appearance on the head of Gruffi Gummi on Disney's The Gummi Bears:
I’ve been wrestling with the full meaning and implication of these lines from the most recent C’s session, so I thought I would try to unpack them here in an attempt to gain some clarity as they are clearly of direct relevance to this thread. Hopefully you will come with better eyes than mine to the matter and help me see what I'm likely blindly missing.
Note that I have removed the two-line exchange between Laura and Andromeda from the middle of the above to make things clearer, as these mostly relate to the specifics of the question of there being any relationship between the Mithraic tauroctony and the murder of Caesar. The issue is of course pivotal to this whole thread that Pierre opened, but first I want to see if we can learn anything about the root meaning of the tauroctony irrespective of any connection to the specific killing of Julius.
The first Q&A I am still very confused by so I will address that after dealing with the second one, as that at least on the surface seems clear enough; but then again, is it really?
If we start by assuming that Joe’s question - which the C’s cut off to affirm ahead of time - would have gone on to complete something like this (and maybe Joe can confirm this was his intention?)…
… then with the C’s unequivocal and speedy ‘yes’, my reading would be that this means that in terms of the core composition of the Mithraic tauroctony as we have it on record today, the C's appear to agree with the implications of Joe’s question that this design was originally meant to represent (and promote?) an ethos of anti-sacrifice on behalf of humanity; that it was openly declaring to the world that blood sacrifice was a false idea and should no longer be followed. Which if so, would have been extremely radical at the time, and still might be for many millions of Catholics living today.
Unless I am way off beam with this interpretation, this is already very interesting because it leads to the suggestion that the bull is the actual hero/victim/centre of the design and that the figure of Mithras is the villain/thief/perpetrator of a cosmic con trick: that the killing is a signifier for there having been a long advanced yet still inherently false appropriation of the Great Bull’s original meaning for nefarious purposes – namely as a principle device for the promotion of the concept of blood sacrifice. In other words, the bull has been too long dragged into a story it never belonged in so as to give a fake story and a mind-control programme an overwhelmingly positive resonant charge (i.e. if the great bull agrees to be sacrificed then who am I to disagree with that?); and that is what the message of the original tauroctony was meant to convey i.e. what you are looking at – and have been brought up to think and believe in for all this time - is fundamentally false.
Do you see what I am getting at? For time out of count, the bull and sacrifice have been perpetually and intrinsically inter-linked (certainly accepted as going back to at least the Sumerians – but I say as far back as the PPN post the Younger Dryas, and maybe even further into the Palaeolithic). However, the original intent of the tauroctony was it seems designed to teach the observer (I assume along with verbal and other instruction) that this is and always has been a fraudulent ‘ethos’. Therefore, it is in some essential way an anti-brain washing tool.
Assuming I am not taking the inner logic of this too far, I will stick with this line of thought and see where it might take us…
Because this brings us on to the problem of Perseus slaying the Gorgon and the connection to Gilgamesh slaying the Great Bull of Heaven.
For starters, if Mithras is indeed the villain so to speak then that’s potentially a big problem for the proposed close parallel between Mithras and the figure of Perseus (Per-Zeus = for God).
Perseus slew the snake-headed Gorgon (which was/is universally accepted as a good thing to achieve), but here Mithras/Perseus kills the divine bull (which is a bad thing to do). Was this part of the original intended meaning then? That you the observer – who was meant by your divine origins to become a Perseus, has through your acceptance of a false, earthbound worldview of the centrality of sacrifice (and therefore materiality), become a false Perseus and thereby become a metaphysical slayer of part of God (the Bull = STO potential?) instead of slaying the monster within you (the Gorgon – predator’s mind - STS)?
Are we therefore meant to look at the tauroctony and see ourselves as we really are – feeding the STS matrix by becoming its ignorant tool and accomplice in the repeated slaying of the divine creative essence (ethos) manifested as a bull? For if we remember that:
Then we can see that this ‘looking away’ (e.g. creating an inner objective consciousness through knowledge (wisdom) that self-observes and directs wise action) has been appropriated by Mithras in the killing of the Great Bull – but in our account this suddenly appears to be a wholly negative action; that in the self-delusion that makes him think he is acting like the hero Perseus he is in fact acting like a complicit fool and failing to see the consequences of his blow to the bull – having been tricked into thinking this is a noble, wise act when in fact it’s a means to ensure avoidance of consequence. As a visual metaphor for say cognitive dissonance it suddenly takes on a whole new meaning.
What is also interesting in this light is that a clear and consistent element of the image of the tauroctony is that just as he looks away and just as the blade plunges into the bull’s shoulder, down below a snake, a lion and a scorpion feed on the bull’s testicles (there is also often a cup standing by as if to catch the fluids out of what is being fed upon) whilst a dog reaches up to catch the blood flowing from the bull’s neck wound.
Most researchers who follow the constellational theory focus in on these as star groupings (Hydra, Leo, Scorpio, Crater and Canis Major) and rarely bother to reflect on the clear barbarity of the feeding frenzy portrayed or the fact that these 4 animals can each have a very dark symbolism attached to them in turn – as could the implications of the cup if one had a mind. Specifically, in stoicism the lion and the snake would be associated with Wild beasts, which are described as savage and mischievous and seek to “kick or bite” (being contentious, injurious, passionate, and violent). In this metaphor we can read a wild beast nature in mankind that if domesticated becomes silly and overly-gentle (domesticated animals being seen as gluttonous, lewd, rash, sordid, inconsiderate) and so should rather be managed and directed by rational thought and self-awareness. Here the metaphor of the horses, carriage, rider and master come to mind.
In particular, we should also note that it is the scorpion that leads this pack of feeders and is often portrayed as being already attached to the testes of the bull. We should further note that in the example tauroctony I posted above that a scorpion is shown attached to the left hand tree (which bares fruit/autumnal) whilst the head of the bull is shown in the right hand tree (that appears to be coming into leaf/spring).
This is where one needs to be careful because we do not know what was part of the original design and what was added later as part of the appropriation as counter symbolic measures to subvert the original intent. But the Scorpion remains a profound mystery either way. And both the original design and what are perhaps negatively perverted later versions both maintain the centrality of the relationship of the Bull and the Scorpion to the whole image.
I’m not going to go into this to any great degree here because it would warrant a thread all of its own (especially in terms of the relationship of these images to the equinoxes, etc), but the Scorpion/Scorpio does appear to be one of the very oldest and longest lived esoteric symbols and constellations/signs of all (along with the Great Bull of Heaven). From my studies to date, I would say that all the other signs of the zodiac can be traced back to a time when they were first and foremost seen as signifiers for some kind of cosmic or cometary source. The Scorpion is far more of an enigma however, for it has been seen as deeply meaningful ever since arguably the first clearly defined images of its pivotal role within a pre-existing, fully realised symbolic ‘philosophy’ are fully revealed on a T-pillar at Göbekli Tepe dating to around 9,500 BC.
I won’t go into the extremely complex, multi-layered meaning of this pillar (known as the Vulture Stone) here, but what is so interesting about its use even way back then is that it would appear to be representative of some kind of intermediary state, a form of consciousness frequency or hidden ‘law’ of our realm, one that cannot be interfered with and was not, as with many other images, used as a symbol of a directly witnessed, visible, exterior force such as comets or discharging plasma, etc. Thus to my reading, the Scorpion was primarily an esoteric symbolic image from the start.
Within the much later zodiac, the Scorpion (known today as Scorpio) primarily seems to represent the positive and negative potential available for human souls when they interact directly with the material plain, and especially with regard to physically driven energy (chemicals?) and particularly desire such as sexuality. Scorpio is therefore the primary battleground of the full zodiac, where we can go right or we can go wrong. Everything before and everything after is mediated through and by the Scorpion (and our relationship to its counterpoint, the bull). The yin/yang reality of life defined by the freewill choices we make and the actions we take. In these terms the scorpion is also, intimately linked with the eagle – for if we chose the ‘right path’ (over the ‘left’) and act upon it, we can soar with noble wings to the heavens, but if we don’t and chose the opposite, we will return back into the material cycle to go again (for up ahead of Scorpio lie the signs of death and reincarnation).
The Scorpion as an image is identical left and right – nothing exoterically determines how one differs from the other - in a sense it contains these two identical seeming ways, these two potential paths, left and right… until one comes to the tail, where the stinger brings to conclusion or not what we have decided to be (it is also worth noting that the claws were associated with the bulls horns and the stinger with the bite of the lion!) If I was to take a big leap and be forced to say what it represents at its deepest level I would suggest it's in some way connected in some way to the frequency of the forced separation of the two hemisphere’s of the brain with the consequences for our world as well documented by the likes of Dr Iain McGilchrist… but that’s a standpoint that’s still a thought in progress).
The dismemberment of the heavenly Scorpion (with the scales that once rested between its claws being detached to form the blindfolded sign of Libra) was suggested in an interaction between Laura and the C’s to define the moment, quite late on in the history of this system, when humans became fully blind to the game they were being caught up in. Post the imposition of Christianity - the new and finally victorious form of fake blood sacrifice by the bull?
Anyway, the fact that the Scorpion feasts on the testes of the bull in the tauroctony seems to hold high significance assuming it was part of the original design.
I have written previously here on how the story of Gilgamesh and Enkidu slaying the Great Bull of Heaven and that of the killing of Humbuba also by Gilgamesh and Enkidu are in truth the same ‘murder’ but deliberately disguised as two separate events. That the reason for this being that the Great Bull, originally a symbol of the presence of the divine and bountiful cosmos, needed to be reframed as the worthy despatching of the terrifying threat to humankind, Humbuba - namely the Great Bull in its descended aspect as a monstrous destructive beast that revealed itself to be a hidden and darker side of the cosmos with his sickle crescent blade in hand. I go into this in some detail in the post linked above. And here we get on to how in later times the stylised realisation of the death of Humbuba as a swastika (comet symbol) became replicated by the Greeks when they represented the Gorgon being dispatched by Perseus...
So the act of sacrifice was inter-linked with mastery over the ‘dangerous’ forces of the cosmos whilst at the same time making the great bull something to be feared and mistrusted.
In the most recent session the C’s also talk about an STS allied secret society being responsible for the burning of the library at Alexandria.
It is my contention that this ‘Stalinisation’ process has been going on for a very long time indeed and that a primary so called secret society – aka Bramley’s Brotherhood of the Snake – have been at it since as far back as human knowledge goes.
I will leave question two for now and move on to question one, though there's obviously much more to explore from matters arising if any of this resonates.
QUESTION 1
Having gone through all the above with regard to the second question, let’s see if we are in anyway better equipped to think a little clearer regarding the first, because at first reading – and for a number after – I must confess I found the C’s response to Joe’s question both baffling and mighty cryptic.
For example:
- What is the actual technical meaning of the term ‘primal bull’?
- By what means can this primal bull be murdered/killed?
- How could the murder of this bull lead it on to give itself up for humanity?
- Why does this action by the bull follow on from something as dastardly as a murder (which implies a knowing crime in which in some way the bull accedes to its role)?
- What form did this giving of itself for humanity possibly take?
The only way to unpack all this is to start with a pivotal assumption (that may of course be wrong!), namely that the C’s are here talking about the STS version of the Mithraic tauroctony and not its original design/purpose.
If this is not correct then I am still completely lost on all the questions above. However, if it is on the right track, it maybe opens up some possible follow on deductions, such as:
The word primal comes from prime:
So in these terms, the bull is primal because it was both on first in terms of cosmic time and still remains the most noble, the most superlative of all...
But all what?
Well the deepest meaning seems to be that it existed even before time itself.
The most ancient of all myths speak of a time – a Golden Age – when the Great Bull and the Great God of peace and plenty were one and the same. That is the Great Bull was a visible sign of the presence in life of the divine godhead itself. I have good reason to believe this is intimately connected with this laboratory plasma figure:
I am with Mary Settegast when she states in Plato Prehistorian that the following image was the Calvary scene of the very end of this Golden age - or its direct memory - when the death (murder?) of the Great Bull brought the whole thing crashing down:
Here we have the great god (with his erect member denoting his power as progenitor) lying dead beside his other aspect, the Great Bull, (note how the arms of the human like figure and the horns of the bull mirror each other in their down turned, up turned forms) through whom a lance or arrow has flown, spilling his genitals and forming a labyrinthine shape. A trinity of divine beings is completed by the bird a top a pillar or staff.
Note also how the figure’s right hand ‘reaches’ for the bird. Note again the deliberate lining up of the arrow/lance and the other strangely placed line (arrow/lance?) so they invisibly intersect to create a perfect 120°/60° angle…? And how the second line would go on to intersect the exact place where the bird joins the top of the pillar/staff. None of this seems accidental.
Slinking off to the left is the apparent perpetrator – a shadowy outline of a rhinoceros, the ‘murderer’, who leaves behind 6 tell-tale dots of excrement from his tail at the crime scene which may here represent the guilty mechanism of this terrible deed – the Pleiades… of whom the ancients spoke in hushed terms as the source of dragons, and other pitiful monsters who came suddenly out of the dark night sky one autumn 13,000 years ago and consumed the world and from also out of which a terrifyingly vast cosmic flood ensued. Again, I have posted on this further here.
Is this the primal bull the C’s speak of here?
... I briefly note that the blade of Mithras enters the neck of the bull - where the Pleiades sit in Taurus.
The same bull who became a captive, sacrificial victim to the snake by the time of its re-emergence at Göbekli Tepe some 4,000 years after this enigmatic cave image was possibly first painted?
(and yes that is a badly damaged fox head below the bull... oh the wicked webs...)
I'm still half in mind that the Lascaux image was actually created by those who went on to create the whole deceit concerning the fallen glory of the bull so yet another false tauroctony in other words! But that's a whole different matter....
I think I will pause there because I’ve gone on quite enough. In nutshell, I suppose I’m asking is the line the C’s gave us…
... actually representative of the STS interpretation/design of the tauroctony, and therefore a clue to the twisting of the original meaning so as to re-establish a world-view based on lies and deceit (as always!)
Any thoughts?
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Sol Logos
The Living Force
This reminds me of the Genesis story or the decision point of choosing to align with the divine plan and being at one with that source of power, or choosing to go off that plan and wield that power for personal gain. In black and white terms, that decision is serving ourselves or serving all. That primal power could be represented by this primal bull. It's grounded and heavy or of full substance, and its horns point to the sky. Feet firmly placed on the ground and attuned also to the heavens, so again we have that symbol of balance - as above so below.
Benjamin
The Living Force
I read Mary Settegast's Zarathustra book and wanted to read Plato Prehistorian but it was out of print. However, it was re-released on Oct. 25th (in Canada) so I just bought it today (amazon). Should be here Nov. 2. Yay!
Just throwing out a few thoughts about the Lascaux Shaft Scene:
The bird 'on' the 'pole' makes me think of the Persian cylinder seal of the rooster standing on top of the lampstand in place of Nuska/Gibil (Mesopotamian/Sumerian). They were gods of fire and represented by the torch which appears to become Canis Minor.
In the Calvary scene, the 'one' is then already depicted as being separated into three (like a father (bull), son (humanoid), holy spirit (bird) thing?).
Just wondering why you say "reaches'? It makes me think that if the humanoid is reaching for the bird, then he is also reaching for the bull. Which then makes me think he's trying to 'reclaim' them.
Below is the star map from Babylonian times recreated by Gavin White (it's been posted before but for easy comparison I post it again) and a screen shot of the current constellations from Stellarium Web. If the Calvary scene has a celestial counterpart then the rhino is missing from the map. If the rhino is the 'thief in the night' leaving the scene of the crime, his escape was nearly flawless since all there is is just an empty space to the lower left of the True Shepherd of Anu, which gets filled by the faint constellation Monoceros, the Unicorn, much later. The "Little Twins" becomes Canis Minor (Procyon on the map) standing on the Unicorn's back. The 'Pleiades' however are in the wrong place in the Calvary scene but I don't know if that means much unless they are not depicting the Pleiades. Because of the way they are arranged, could they be depicting the three stars of Orion's belt and three 'stars' of Orion's sword?
(Click to enlarge)
Just throwing out a few thoughts about the Lascaux Shaft Scene:
- The man has a really long torso, looks to have the head of a bird, no hair and only 4 digits per hand.
- The tail of the 'rhinoceros' (apparently an extinct Woolly Rhinoceros) is kinda club-like. I looked at pictures and all the rhinos that I've seen have a tapered tail with a tuft of hair at the end. If it is a Woolly Rhino, then it should have long, thick hair... covering the entire animal. This one is blunt with no hair, but it does look unfinished.
- The bull's tail is tufted with three strands of hair (trident? flail? comet's tail?).
- Both tails are curved.
- The rhino tail makes me think of that curved staff/rod/weapon thing (can't think of the weapon's name right now. It's not the crook, though it looks like that too.).
- The Rhino's tail looks vaguely like a snake head and also like the Phrygian cap as the one depicted on the possible Zoroastrian Magi statue.
- The bull is looking back in a similar way as Mithra in the tauroctony. Why? Is the bull 'lost'. Can it not see it's 'other half'?
- The humanoid appears to be depicted still having sexual stamina whereas the bull has had it's power severed.
- If you were to extend the long 'lance' downward, the bird would be sitting on the tip of a triangle.
- Extending the man's 'right' arm down to the bird, the bird would then be in the 'centre' of three 'spokes'.
- Extending the man's 'left' arm draws a parallel line with the long 'lance'. (Of course, though, I'm filling in lines that don't exist.)
- The six black dots are arranged in two rows of three or three columns of two.
The bird 'on' the 'pole' makes me think of the Persian cylinder seal of the rooster standing on top of the lampstand in place of Nuska/Gibil (Mesopotamian/Sumerian). They were gods of fire and represented by the torch which appears to become Canis Minor.
In the Calvary scene, the 'one' is then already depicted as being separated into three (like a father (bull), son (humanoid), holy spirit (bird) thing?).
Just wondering why you say "reaches'? It makes me think that if the humanoid is reaching for the bird, then he is also reaching for the bull. Which then makes me think he's trying to 'reclaim' them.
Below is the star map from Babylonian times recreated by Gavin White (it's been posted before but for easy comparison I post it again) and a screen shot of the current constellations from Stellarium Web. If the Calvary scene has a celestial counterpart then the rhino is missing from the map. If the rhino is the 'thief in the night' leaving the scene of the crime, his escape was nearly flawless since all there is is just an empty space to the lower left of the True Shepherd of Anu, which gets filled by the faint constellation Monoceros, the Unicorn, much later. The "Little Twins" becomes Canis Minor (Procyon on the map) standing on the Unicorn's back. The 'Pleiades' however are in the wrong place in the Calvary scene but I don't know if that means much unless they are not depicting the Pleiades. Because of the way they are arranged, could they be depicting the three stars of Orion's belt and three 'stars' of Orion's sword?
(Click to enlarge)
I’m just reading the part in FPtM where Laura talks about what crucifixion meant at the time of Caesar, and that it didn’t necessarily mean a cross, but just something wooded to hang something from, or sometimes associated with impaling, which would suggest a spear-like item.
In the quote that Pierre used about the displaying of the Phrygian cap, the object the cap was paraded on was a spade. This article on wiki says it was a spear:
en.m.wikipedia.org
Spear, spade, a translation issue? Whatever it was, it served the same purpose.
Could this parading of the cap after Caesar’s murder have contributed to the imagery of the crucifixion?
In the quote that Pierre used about the displaying of the Phrygian cap, the object the cap was paraded on was a spade. This article on wiki says it was a spear:
Liberty pole - Wikipedia
Spear, spade, a translation issue? Whatever it was, it served the same purpose.
Could this parading of the cap after Caesar’s murder have contributed to the imagery of the crucifixion?
Wandering Star
The Living Force
Q: (Joe) What did the Mithraic tauroctony symbolize?
A: Murder of the primal bull that then gave itself for humanity.
….
(Joe) Is it meant to represent an ethos that was against sacrificing for humanity? That whoever came up with the tauroctony didn't agree with or didn't like that idea of...
A: Yes
,..................................................................
I understood it by relating it to this response from the C's.
A: Murder of the primal bull that then gave itself for humanity.
….
(Joe) Is it meant to represent an ethos that was against sacrificing for humanity? That whoever came up with the tauroctony didn't agree with or didn't like that idea of...
A: Yes
,..................................................................
I understood it by relating it to this response from the C's.
From my reading of the death and it's aftermath I believe there was a wax effigy made of Caesar showing all the stab wounds and this effigy was placed on the Tropaeum or as Francesco Carotta called it 'Caesar's Cross. This was the idea for Jesus on the cross or the Crucifixion according to him.
Benjamin
The Living Force
Jtucker
Jedi Master
Hopefully you can post a review on Plato Prehistorian after you read it. I've always wondered if there were some hidden clues in there that might illuminate more on the Younger Dryas Impact.
One thing I was wondering about the Tauroctony is its relationship to Zoroastrianism (and possibly paleo-Zurvanism - not the later Atticized materialist version of it) . If Zarathustra reformed a corrupted Zurvanism either right before or during the Bronze Age collapse, then there may be a link to his emphasis on the bull/cattle issue at that time which he seemed very adamant about. Rather than just being an admonishment to cattle stealers and the need to be in tune with Ahuramazda by the obligation of proper animal husbandry - maybe there's a deeper connection that has to do with the Tauroctony?
The Hymns of Zoroaster do imply that some great violation of a past covenant has occurred that needs to be remedied now. I don't think he's merely warning about apostasy or ethical violations - but something much larger that has cosmic implications in terms of the human interface with earhthly (and beyond) reality..
Elements of "meat eating" and building a "strong and connected" antenna to the Six Bounteous Immortals could play a role in all this controversy of what the bull sacrifice is revolving around. Aren't the C's in the last session stating that Bull sacrificed itself? Maybe this doesn't only mean a blood sacrifice in a cosmic matter, but also means that the species sacrifices itself for nutrition/proteins to be transferred to humans to be utilized as the catalyst to communicate with the higher thought centrers/gods?
