Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions
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emilien512
Guest
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
I will have to make a topic as it is rather big and not following exactly this topic.
But a good start is to make the comparison of ketosis and kenosis and the make the relation with the 2 latter links.
Gimpy said:
I will have to make a topic as it is rather big and not following exactly this topic.
But a good start is to make the comparison of ketosis and kenosis and the make the relation with the 2 latter links.
mcb
The Living Force
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
I have been back down to near-zero carbs for going on a week now, and things are going fairly well. I had had a few things I wouldn't normally eat over the previous week, between traveling and the holiday, and while there were no major problems with that, it has taken a while to return all the way to normal. I seem to be doing better now than when I was including sweet potato. I actually started coming down from 20 g/d the week before, and there was no adaptation period this time, at least not that I noticed.
I am still having a bit of chard with breakfast, to help with "clean out" (along with coffee) and that has been working very well. Up until today I was also including a little dulse for iodine. I am now going to switch to an iodine/iodide supplement, and I am going to try supplementing T3. After I have had time to see what that does, I can try eliminating the chard. I don't want to make both changes at once.
I have had a few very mild morning headaches, and I have some morning abdominal pain that seems to be coming from my colon. That is not too surprising, and may be due to bacterial die-off or other reactions to the carb reduction. Nothing so far stands out as unusual or concerning.
I saw my hormone specialist today, and he identified a couple of problems from the lab tests. My adrenal hormones are as screwy as ever, apparently still due to a lack of pregnenolone, something that I was already pretty sure of from the symptoms. Neither of us is aware of any simple fix for that, and it results in low progesterone, DHEA, testosterone, and estrogen. I am stuck on that problem for now, and I wonder if perhaps I have a defective gene for an enzyme in the cholesterol->pregnenolone pathway, similar to CAH but not resulting in cortisol insufficiency.
The other issue is more promising in terms of treatment. As I have read about so many times now, my T4 thyroid is squarely in the normal lab range, but my T3 is at the low end and my reverse T3 is at the high end, and I have a range of thyroid symptoms consistent that test result. Of course until now no doctor has ever ordered all of those tests, and I was always told that my thyroid was "fine." But then this has happened to so many people now that I don't even find it remarkable. In any case, we are going to try supplementing T3/iodine/iodide and see what happens. I will start tomorrow morning. If it works, it could really help with the resistance exercise.
It seems possible that the thyroid issues could be related to low progesterone, caused by low pregnenolone, although I guess it could be pretty hard to tell for sure. At this point I don't know of any root-cause solution to the problem if that is what it is, and I just want to see what supplementation will do. I have observed many times in recent years that the #1 thing standing in the way of me getting out and doing more is sheer physical lack of energy. This is certainly worth a try.
Added: Oh yes -- I finally took ketone measurements. The first one was a few hours after my last meal of the day, after I had been down to near-zero for a coule of days, and it was 1.0 mmol. The second one was this morning with a more respectable 2.4 mmol., and with fasting glucose at 90. I am happy with those numbers for now.
I have been back down to near-zero carbs for going on a week now, and things are going fairly well. I had had a few things I wouldn't normally eat over the previous week, between traveling and the holiday, and while there were no major problems with that, it has taken a while to return all the way to normal. I seem to be doing better now than when I was including sweet potato. I actually started coming down from 20 g/d the week before, and there was no adaptation period this time, at least not that I noticed.
I am still having a bit of chard with breakfast, to help with "clean out" (along with coffee) and that has been working very well. Up until today I was also including a little dulse for iodine. I am now going to switch to an iodine/iodide supplement, and I am going to try supplementing T3. After I have had time to see what that does, I can try eliminating the chard. I don't want to make both changes at once.
I have had a few very mild morning headaches, and I have some morning abdominal pain that seems to be coming from my colon. That is not too surprising, and may be due to bacterial die-off or other reactions to the carb reduction. Nothing so far stands out as unusual or concerning.
I saw my hormone specialist today, and he identified a couple of problems from the lab tests. My adrenal hormones are as screwy as ever, apparently still due to a lack of pregnenolone, something that I was already pretty sure of from the symptoms. Neither of us is aware of any simple fix for that, and it results in low progesterone, DHEA, testosterone, and estrogen. I am stuck on that problem for now, and I wonder if perhaps I have a defective gene for an enzyme in the cholesterol->pregnenolone pathway, similar to CAH but not resulting in cortisol insufficiency.
The other issue is more promising in terms of treatment. As I have read about so many times now, my T4 thyroid is squarely in the normal lab range, but my T3 is at the low end and my reverse T3 is at the high end, and I have a range of thyroid symptoms consistent that test result. Of course until now no doctor has ever ordered all of those tests, and I was always told that my thyroid was "fine." But then this has happened to so many people now that I don't even find it remarkable. In any case, we are going to try supplementing T3/iodine/iodide and see what happens. I will start tomorrow morning. If it works, it could really help with the resistance exercise.
It seems possible that the thyroid issues could be related to low progesterone, caused by low pregnenolone, although I guess it could be pretty hard to tell for sure. At this point I don't know of any root-cause solution to the problem if that is what it is, and I just want to see what supplementation will do. I have observed many times in recent years that the #1 thing standing in the way of me getting out and doing more is sheer physical lack of energy. This is certainly worth a try.
Added: Oh yes -- I finally took ketone measurements. The first one was a few hours after my last meal of the day, after I had been down to near-zero for a coule of days, and it was 1.0 mmol. The second one was this morning with a more respectable 2.4 mmol., and with fasting glucose at 90. I am happy with those numbers for now.
Nancy2feathers
The Living Force
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Hi Megan.
I`v been following your posts. I know for me coffee would wreck havoc on the adrenals. I lived for coffee. Freshly ground, french press. Ahhh. I found that years worth of having those 2 cups in the am was really bad for my insides. My body relied on the coffee in so many ways.
Now I`m coffee free. I switched to organic black tea. That seems to work much better for me.
I don`t know if coffee is a culprit for you, but I thought I would share my coffee experience.
Healing thoughts sent your way. :)
Nancy
Hi Megan.
I`v been following your posts. I know for me coffee would wreck havoc on the adrenals. I lived for coffee. Freshly ground, french press. Ahhh. I found that years worth of having those 2 cups in the am was really bad for my insides. My body relied on the coffee in so many ways.
Now I`m coffee free. I switched to organic black tea. That seems to work much better for me.
I don`t know if coffee is a culprit for you, but I thought I would share my coffee experience.
Healing thoughts sent your way. :)
Nancy
mcb
The Living Force
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Coffee is one of my most-tested inputs (it's not exactly a food). Maybe it's because my adrenal hormones are such a wreck already that there isn't much left to do to them, but I don't really know. Maybe it compensates in some way for the endocrine issues.
The only two effects coffee has on me that I can detect are that it is a mild laxative and an appetite suppressant. Any other benefits seem to be attributable to the laxative effect. It doesn't give me a buzz or keep me awake, it's not addictive, and I have not observed any negative effect on my GI tract.
There is still a lot of material moving through, more than I can account for from what I am eating. As that settles down I will reduce or eliminate the coffee, and that should also make it easier to isolate any symptoms that the thyroid supplement might produce.
Nancy2feathers said:
Coffee is one of my most-tested inputs (it's not exactly a food). Maybe it's because my adrenal hormones are such a wreck already that there isn't much left to do to them, but I don't really know. Maybe it compensates in some way for the endocrine issues.
The only two effects coffee has on me that I can detect are that it is a mild laxative and an appetite suppressant. Any other benefits seem to be attributable to the laxative effect. It doesn't give me a buzz or keep me awake, it's not addictive, and I have not observed any negative effect on my GI tract.
There is still a lot of material moving through, more than I can account for from what I am eating. As that settles down I will reduce or eliminate the coffee, and that should also make it easier to isolate any symptoms that the thyroid supplement might produce.
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
I had the "shot to heck adrenals" problem and dealt with it with low-dose hydrocortisone taken at those specific times of the day when the adrenals would be expected to do their thing. At the same time, I was taking "adrenal support" supplements. The idea was to let the adrenals rest a bit, help the body to get back on the right adrenal schedule, and feed them for healing. Soon I was able to drop both protocols because things just kicked back in and started working. It took about 3/4 months.
I had the "shot to heck adrenals" problem and dealt with it with low-dose hydrocortisone taken at those specific times of the day when the adrenals would be expected to do their thing. At the same time, I was taking "adrenal support" supplements. The idea was to let the adrenals rest a bit, help the body to get back on the right adrenal schedule, and feed them for healing. Soon I was able to drop both protocols because things just kicked back in and started working. It took about 3/4 months.
mcb
The Living Force
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Thanks. That could be worth a try after giving the thyroid supplement some time to work. I have had similar problems for 50 years or more, but nobody ever checked hormones beyond the standard tests that miss anything unusual. My guess, given the gender identity problems, is that this is congenital. If my adrenals kick in, it may be for the first time.
I am planning to do some more research on pregnenolone synthesis. When I started to do that earlier, I kept running into research paper references that involved hefty fees for access. Now I am using DeepDyve, which lets me rent articles for a while for a few dollars, and download some of them cheaply. It's available for some papers but not others, but it is a major improvement over what I had before. There is also a library here that may have the journals.
Laura said:
Thanks. That could be worth a try after giving the thyroid supplement some time to work. I have had similar problems for 50 years or more, but nobody ever checked hormones beyond the standard tests that miss anything unusual. My guess, given the gender identity problems, is that this is congenital. If my adrenals kick in, it may be for the first time.
I am planning to do some more research on pregnenolone synthesis. When I started to do that earlier, I kept running into research paper references that involved hefty fees for access. Now I am using DeepDyve, which lets me rent articles for a while for a few dollars, and download some of them cheaply. It's available for some papers but not others, but it is a major improvement over what I had before. There is also a library here that may have the journals.
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Megan,
I have access to a whole range of publications, if you want, you can PM me the references and I can PM you back the pdf files of the papers I am able to get ...
Megan said:
Megan,
I have access to a whole range of publications, if you want, you can PM me the references and I can PM you back the pdf files of the papers I am able to get ...
mcb
The Living Force
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
This is an interesting collection, a series of papers from a conference. I don't have my own copy but I was able to "borrow" it using DeepDyve. Of particular interest is the paper How does the ketogenic diet work? A look into the mechanisms of action by J. M. Rho and P. G. Sullivan. I don't see any easy way to summarize it in my own words, but here is the concluding section:
In other words, a KD similar to what we are trying here (perhaps ~10 g/d carbs in clinical versions and 1 g/kg protein) alters all sorts of things in our brains. It would be careless to assume that the only benefit is seizure treatment. This experiment could prove very interesting indeed.
Ailén said:
This is an interesting collection, a series of papers from a conference. I don't have my own copy but I was able to "borrow" it using DeepDyve. Of particular interest is the paper How does the ketogenic diet work? A look into the mechanisms of action by J. M. Rho and P. G. Sullivan. I don't see any easy way to summarize it in my own words, but here is the concluding section:
In other words, a KD similar to what we are trying here (perhaps ~10 g/d carbs in clinical versions and 1 g/kg protein) alters all sorts of things in our brains. It would be careless to assume that the only benefit is seizure treatment. This experiment could prove very interesting indeed.
mcb
The Living Force
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Thank you -- I use DeepDyve to preview papers to see if they are worth further attention, but very often the service does not allow downloading because the publisher has blocked it (in other words they want the full fee). If I encounter that, I will definitely take up your offer!
nicklebleu said:
Thank you -- I use DeepDyve to preview papers to see if they are worth further attention, but very often the service does not allow downloading because the publisher has blocked it (in other words they want the full fee). If I encounter that, I will definitely take up your offer!
mcb
The Living Force
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
A direct pregnenolone supplement can be very helpful for some people, from what I have read. I worked with a doctor eight years ago to try to bring the level up using the OTC capsule supplement form, but it didn't help. There are other forms that might be better absorbed. The doctor I have now is more experienced than anyone else I have ever worked with, and when he looked at the test results (which, for my adrenal steroids are the same as they were 8 years ago--basically zip), we had a discussion about it and then he moved on to something that he knew could be treated -- the low T3/high rT3 thyroid pattern.
I could discuss pregnenolone supplementation with him again, after we see how the T3 treatment goes. It requires periodic blood draws to see if it is having the desired effect. This last round of tests ran around $500 for the adrenal steroid levels alone ($825 altogether including the thyroid tests as well), but a pregnenolone test by itself would only be about $80. Fortunately, insurance is covering most of it, but I don't want to push it with the insurance company and I would like to have good reason to think that more supplementation and testing would help, and right now I don't. And I am not fond at all of blood draws, although they aren't too much trouble as long as they are few and far between.
In my earlier research, the closest I came to finding anything similar was in descriptions of genetic defects, where a mutation resulted in an adrenal pathway enzyme that did not function. I also encountered a few desperate people online, looking for answers about pregnenolone insufficiency, that were in worse shape than I was. I tend to be absent-minded and spacey, which correlates well with a pregnenolone level of 3 (which is pretty close to "none" -- it can't really be measured any lower), and growing up I had hypogonadism that somehow went undiagnosed. It might not be my first choice for what sort of body to have, but apparently I can live with it, since I already have for a rather long time.
Mrs. Peel said:
A direct pregnenolone supplement can be very helpful for some people, from what I have read. I worked with a doctor eight years ago to try to bring the level up using the OTC capsule supplement form, but it didn't help. There are other forms that might be better absorbed. The doctor I have now is more experienced than anyone else I have ever worked with, and when he looked at the test results (which, for my adrenal steroids are the same as they were 8 years ago--basically zip), we had a discussion about it and then he moved on to something that he knew could be treated -- the low T3/high rT3 thyroid pattern.
I could discuss pregnenolone supplementation with him again, after we see how the T3 treatment goes. It requires periodic blood draws to see if it is having the desired effect. This last round of tests ran around $500 for the adrenal steroid levels alone ($825 altogether including the thyroid tests as well), but a pregnenolone test by itself would only be about $80. Fortunately, insurance is covering most of it, but I don't want to push it with the insurance company and I would like to have good reason to think that more supplementation and testing would help, and right now I don't. And I am not fond at all of blood draws, although they aren't too much trouble as long as they are few and far between.
In my earlier research, the closest I came to finding anything similar was in descriptions of genetic defects, where a mutation resulted in an adrenal pathway enzyme that did not function. I also encountered a few desperate people online, looking for answers about pregnenolone insufficiency, that were in worse shape than I was. I tend to be absent-minded and spacey, which correlates well with a pregnenolone level of 3 (which is pretty close to "none" -- it can't really be measured any lower), and growing up I had hypogonadism that somehow went undiagnosed. It might not be my first choice for what sort of body to have, but apparently I can live with it, since I already have for a rather long time.
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Me too! I finally got my ketone test strips out of the box and used them. I was currently at 5.7 mmol, so I was relieved to see that number. It's nice to get real confirmation, but I can still get deeper in. I'm also on my 4th week of totally committed resistance training and, thanks to this diet, am acing a biology class that otherwise would have had me in deep water :P
Megan said:
Me too! I finally got my ketone test strips out of the box and used them. I was currently at 5.7 mmol, so I was relieved to see that number. It's nice to get real confirmation, but I can still get deeper in. I'm also on my 4th week of totally committed resistance training and, thanks to this diet, am acing a biology class that otherwise would have had me in deep water :P
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Glad things are going well :) the mental effects can be profound indeed. I find sitting through an incredibly boring 2 hour lecture has become much easier.
I've also started running and sprinting again, really pushing myself. Today I had a quick weight training workout, followed by a 15 minute interval sprint. Combined with an ice cold bath afterwards, I've had superhuman energy levels all day, and a calm positive outlook on everything. Something about the cold really brings me to life on this diet.
Hesper said:
Glad things are going well :) the mental effects can be profound indeed. I find sitting through an incredibly boring 2 hour lecture has become much easier.
I've also started running and sprinting again, really pushing myself. Today I had a quick weight training workout, followed by a 15 minute interval sprint. Combined with an ice cold bath afterwards, I've had superhuman energy levels all day, and a calm positive outlook on everything. Something about the cold really brings me to life on this diet.