Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[dugdeep]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Did you even out the protein amount per meal, or did you reduce total protein?

Per meal. I try to keep it under 25g per meal, regardless of how many meals I'm eating. Doing this definitely brought me into ketosis, which I thought I had already been in since I was eating zero carb for about a year, but clearly wasn't in ketosis given the blood sugar swings.

I can't think of another explanation other than that the high amounts of protein I was eating was being converted to glucose.

Could you tell us what was your daily intake? At this time were you rather thin or ... ?

I'm not sure what my daily intake was since I wasn't measuring at this point, but it wasn't unusual for me to eat a 10oz steak or a couple of pork chops slathered in ghee or lard as a meal three times per day. I would often eat 3/4 of a pound of bacon in one sitting. I've always had a large appetite accompanied by a high level of food anxiety throughout my life, so this was consistent with my "big eater" pattern. It wasn't until going into ketosis proper that this all changed. I now consistently eat 3oz of meat and a whackload of fat per meal, and will eat two or three meals depending on whether or not I feel hungry. Food anxiety doesn't really exist anymore, but I still have to watch the "big eater" pattern of behaviour which will still rear its ugly head on occasion and lead me to overeat protein.

As for whether or not I was thin, going paleo dropped me from 220 lbs down to 200 or so. Dropping carbs to zero took me down to about 185. Now, since going ketogenic by restricting protein, I'm hovering around 165. I'm still not exactly thin since I've got some small "love handles" around the middle, but I'm the leanest I've ever been in my adult life.

Another n=1 indication that excessive protein seems to be converted into glucose - when I go over on protein consumption at any given meal, I get hungry a lot sooner. This indicates to me that higher protein meals are likely increasing blood sugar via gluconeogenesis. I could be wrong about this, but again, I can't think of another explanation. There is the idea also that some people are much more prone to gluconeogenesis than others. Maybe going high protein for as long as I did gave my liver an itchy trigger finger, so to speak.

 

[l_autre_d]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Did you even out the protein amount per meal, or did you reduce total protein?

Per meal. I try to keep it under 25g per meal, regardless of how many meals I'm eating. Doing this definitely brought me into ketosis, which I thought I had already been in since I was eating zero carb for about a year, but clearly wasn't in ketosis given the blood sugar swings.

I can't think of another explanation other than that the high amounts of protein I was eating was being converted to glucose.

Could you tell us what was your daily intake? At this time were you rather thin or ... ?

I'm not sure what my daily intake was since I wasn't measuring at this point, but it wasn't unusual for me to eat a 10oz steak or a couple of pork chops slathered in ghee or lard as a meal three times per day. I would often eat 3/4 of a pound of bacon in one sitting. I've always had a large appetite accompanied by a high level of food anxiety throughout my life, so this was consistent with my "big eater" pattern. It wasn't until going into ketosis proper that this all changed. I now consistently eat 3oz of meat and a whackload of fat per meal, and will eat two or three meals depending on whether or not I feel hungry. Food anxiety doesn't really exist anymore, but I still have to watch the "big eater" pattern of behaviour which will still rear its ugly head on occasion and lead me to overeat protein.

As for whether or not I was thin, going paleo dropped me from 220 lbs down to 200 or so. Dropping carbs to zero took me down to about 185. Now, since going ketogenic by restricting protein, I'm hovering around 165. I'm still not exactly thin since I've got some small "love handles" around the middle, but I'm the leanest I've ever been in my adult life.

Another n=1 indication that excessive protein seems to be converted into glucose - when I go over on protein consumption at any given meal, I get hungry a lot sooner. This indicates to me that higher protein meals are likely increasing blood sugar via gluconeogenesis. I could be wrong about this, but again, I can't think of another explanation. There is the idea also that some people are much more prone to gluconeogenesis than others. Maybe going high protein for as long as I did gave my liver an itchy trigger finger, so to speak.

Last week I wondered the same about excess protein consumption and diabetes. Two new people started at the office and during lunch one asked if I was on a low carb diet because of what I was not eating. I admitted so and asked if he had heard of the paleo diet. He did not but related a story of some years back having tried low carb, losing 40-50 pounds and feeling great at 30g of carbs/day. Then ended up in the hospital with blood sugar of 600 [sounds unbelievably high]. With a diagnosis of type-2 diabetes and appropriate medication, his condition stabilized. His belief is that the cause was the low carb diet. He did not mention adding fat to the diet so I suspect carbs were replaced with protein. Before I could inquire further, the other new employee started talking about being a vegetarian which led the discussion in a new direction. I listened, and was still able to mention a book I had read called Vegetarian Myth which might prove interesting to look at if they hadn't seen it before.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Did you even out the protein amount per meal, or did you reduce total protein?

Per meal. I try to keep it under 25g per meal, regardless of how many meals I'm eating. Doing this definitely brought me into ketosis, which I thought I had already been in since I was eating zero carb for about a year, but clearly wasn't in ketosis given the blood sugar swings.

So you distributed the protein amount evenly between meals, keeping the total the same?

If you simply reduce the per-meal amount, the total goes down too. If it goes down too far, you may very well have problems with satiety. Your body doesn't really want to cannibalize itself, but without enough dietary protein it may have to.

Is your present weight (165 based on your last post) a "normal" weight for your height? If it is your "about right" weight, your protein RDA would be 60 g/d. If you only eat two meals with 25g per meal of protein, that's below the RDA, although it sounds like it would average out as long as you have 75g on some days.

Depending on how active you are, however, even 75g could be too low. This could also be the case if 165 is underweight for you. In any event, you should have room to increase protein a bit to balance hunger.

I don't count out grams of protein per day to determine how much to eat, and neither did paleolithic humans. If I am hungry, I eat more. If not, I eat less. If I am *really* hungry for carbs then I have some carbs (paleo ones, of course). Doing so tends to put an end to any craving, and limited carb intake does not interfere with neoglucogenesis -- it will down-regulate but not shut down, and the liver gets a break. Since I am not really eating a natural human diet, I do pay attention to the macronutrient balance and the micronutrient availability to try to avoid problems. To accomplish that, now and then I do the calculations -- especially if I notice a problem -- and I use that information to adjust what foods I buy, when necessary.

I can't think of another explanation other than that the high amounts of protein I was eating was being converted to glucose.

Could you tell us what was your daily intake? At this time were you rather thin or ... ?

I'm not sure what my daily intake was since I wasn't measuring at this point, but it wasn't unusual for me to eat a 10oz steak or a couple of pork chops slathered in ghee or lard as a meal three times per day. I would often eat 3/4 of a pound of bacon in one sitting. I've always had a large appetite accompanied by a high level of food anxiety throughout my life, so this was consistent with my "big eater" pattern. It wasn't until going into ketosis proper that this all changed. I now consistently eat 3oz of meat and a whackload of fat per meal, and will eat two or three meals depending on whether or not I feel hungry. Food anxiety doesn't really exist anymore, but I still have to watch the "big eater" pattern of behaviour which will still rear its ugly head on occasion and lead me to overeat protein.

As for whether or not I was thin, going paleo dropped me from 220 lbs down to 200 or so. Dropping carbs to zero took me down to about 185. Now, since going ketogenic by restricting protein, I'm hovering around 165. I'm still not exactly thin since I've got some small "love handles" around the middle, but I'm the leanest I've ever been in my adult life.

Another n=1 indication that excessive protein seems to be converted into glucose - when I go over on protein consumption at any given meal, I get hungry a lot sooner. This indicates to me that higher protein meals are likely increasing blood sugar via gluconeogenesis. I could be wrong about this, but again, I can't think of another explanation. There is the idea also that some people are much more prone to gluconeogenesis than others. Maybe going high protein for as long as I did gave my liver an itchy trigger finger, so to speak.

You say that the protein is increasing blood sugar, but have you measured your blood sugar to confirm this?

I have feelings sometimes that resemble my earlier low blood sugar symptoms, but when I measure my blood glucose it is not low. There seems to be one signal that comes from your stomach emptying out. It's just a signal. Since food is readily available, you can ignore it and it should go away. You don't need to go hunt. On a ketogenic diet, hunger seems to me to run on a timer more than anything else. I find that when I delay my lunch I do get a kind of mental boost when I finally eat, but if I am really absorbed in my work then I can easily forget to eat -- the timer doesn't go off. It's when I am frustrated and tired that I find myself wanting to stop and eat. It doesn't really seem to have a lot to do with levels of energy storage. I routinely go 16 hours in the evening without eating and with no side effects.

There are a good many reasons why excess protein is undesirable. Out-of-control neoglucogenesis is just not one that I routinely see listed. Appetite is complex, and there could be many reasons why eating more protein makes you feel hungry.

I find Jaminet's "nutrient hunger" hypothesis to be interesting, and worth considering when I have hunger problems that I can't account for. Basically, when that happens you look for possible nutritional deficiencies. The trick is to know what to look for.

 

[emilien512]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

There are a good many reasons why excess protein is undesirable. Out-of-control neoglucogenesis is just not one that I routinely see listed.

Bodybuilders use many meal a dail with small amount of proteins intake at almost each meal, this might prove how they do succeed at developing muscle mass. The body also eventually use muscle tissue to make energy (glucose?ketone?) during starvation.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I understand it is rather individual, but I curious if there any clear signals that would indicate that i'm no-longer in ketosis, because i'm worried about my yesterday’s sugar intake interrupting with it. And how fast can the body leave the ketosis state if you have been in it for quite a while and suddenly for 1 or 2 days you eat a high amount of sugar/carbs.

Probably you came out of ketosis. You can re-start with a good fatty breakfast and then during the day have some semi-fasting with bone broth. Then you'll go back to ketosis soon enough. I would also try to even out your protein intake throughout the day.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

One more thing Serg, was the cake you ate gluten-free (really gluten-free) from some other "flour?" Eating cake is bad enough in other ways but if grain flour (not necessarily wheat) was used it's much worse. Gluten and similar compounds and lectins/anti-nutrients are REALLY bad, and it's hard to say if your issues are "just" carb sensitivity/reactions or related to these other substances. And many non-gluten flours can still be contaminated with gluten at the mill, etc. Just wanted to point all this out, fwiw.

 

[Carl]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

One more thing Serg, was the cake you ate gluten-free (really gluten-free) from some other "flour?" Eating cake is bad enough in other ways but if grain flour (not necessarily wheat) was used it's much worse. Gluten and similar compounds and lectins/anti-nutrients are REALLY bad, and it's hard to say if your issues are "just" carb sensitivity/reactions or related to these other substances. And many non-gluten flours can still be contaminated with gluten at the mill, etc. Just wanted to point all this out, fwiw.

Absolutely. I decided to try some gluten free cake over Christmas (it had potato, rice, buckwheat and some others ) and was irritable for about 2 days. I noticed the old negative introject come out in force too, and had to fight self esteem issues that I've not had for a long time. Jesus.. never again.

 

[Ollie]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

... There is the idea also that some people are much more prone to gluconeogenesis than others. Maybe going high protein for as long as I did gave my liver an itchy trigger finger, so to speak.

I think that may be the case with me, even a small amount of protein over the recommended minimum per meal seems to bring on the signs of leaving/entering ketosis. I don't particularly measure the amount of protein, I know what 100g of a particular protein based food looks like, and only measure when eating a 'new type' of protein to get an idea of portion size.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I understand it is rather individual, but I curious if there any clear signals that would indicate that i'm no-longer in ketosis, because i'm worried about my yesterday’s sugar intake interrupting with it. And how fast can the body leave the ketosis state if you have been in it for quite a while and suddenly for 1 or 2 days you eat a high amount of sugar/carbs.

Probably you came out of ketosis. You can re-start with a good fatty breakfast and then during the day have some semi-fasting with bone broth. Then you'll go back to ketosis soon enough. I would also try to even out your protein intake throughout the day.

You can also urge it along with high-MCT foods or even a leucine supplement, but I would think that it would be better to just let the body recover.

Gluconeogenesis seems to be immediately responsive to food intake. I have never experience any direct sensation of a blood sugar drop as a result of eating excess carbs (i.e. substantially greater than 50 g/d), not that I have had many opportunities to test it. I do see some measured blood glucose increase, temporarily, after traveling (when I have had a higher carb intake).

Ketosis would appear to be more sensitive to food intake. I haven't observed my own levels as closely as my glucose levels -- due to the cost -- so I don't have as much direct information about them. I did, however, have a "lapse" over a year ago while I was on vacation, and I ate a large piece of cake. Not gluten free, either. I was able to observe a few things from that. It was about 3-4 months after I started a ketogenic diet.

At the time I was not having acute allergic reactions to gluten, and there wasn't a lot of aftermath. The only strong reaction was that I felt a lot of fatigue the next day and I was generally weaker than usual. The fatigue did not persist, however, as it might during keto-readaptation, and it didn't affect my vacation too much. We had a cabin with a kitchen, and for the most part I stuck with the same foods I had been eating at home. This helps explain the minimal side effects, I think.

I didn't have a ketone meter at the time to take measurements, so I don't know what happened to my ketones. It might have taken a couple of weeks to return to completely feeling normal, but I tend to suspect now that this had more to do with the gluten than the carbs or ketone levels.

The more recent tests that I have done with varying carb intake might have revealed a little more about keto-adaptation, at least the way it works in me. Again, I didn't yet have a ketone meter so I don't know the actual levels. What I do know is that going up to 50 g/d of carbs did not produce any "carb adaptation" effects, but that coming back down after a long time at 50 g/d did require going through a short (~1 week) keto-adaptation period where I felt more tired than usually, and generally just a bit "off." Twice, in fact, since I dropped to ~30/g day, and then later on down to just a few grams per day (I get a few carbs from liver, eggs, and supplements). Each time I felt minor adaptation symptoms (and I increased my salt intake).

Once I was able to go down to minimal carb intake and stay there (i.e. without my body revolting from the low carb intake), I did not go through keto-adaptation symptoms again, even when I raised and lowered my carb intake. It may be that you have to stay at a higher level for weeks or months before that becomes necessary again. Phinney & Volek discuss keto-adaptation in their newest book (TAASOLCP):

At the most basic level keto-adaptation involves an increase in the body’s production and utilization of ketones. However, this is a complex and coordinated sequence of highly orchestrated events requiring adaptations in the type of fuel used by most cells in the body. Ketone production occurs mainly in the liver in response to a combination of increased delivery of fatty acids and depletion of hepatic glycogen reserves. The ketones produced in the liver are then transported by the circulation to other cells in the body including muscle and brain. In skeletal muscle, the first few days of keto-adaptation result in increased use of both ketones plus fatty acids from a variety of sources (adipose or intra-muscular triglycerides, or from circulating very low density lipoprotein particles). Once the process of keto-adaptation is complete (which takes from a few weeks to a month), muscle both at rest and during exercise comes to rely heavily on fatty acids. This adaptation of the muscle away from ketone use spares hepatic ketone production for use by other tissues, especially the brain.

This is a key point. Practically speaking, the brain can burn only glucose or ketones. On a very low carbohydrate diet, the brain comes to rely on ketones as its primary fuel. Although ketones are preferentially taken up by the brain, because of the large mass of skeletal muscle and the increase in blood flow to active muscles during exercise, this delayed shift of the muscles away from ketones and towards fatty acid use is vital to preserving fuel flow to the brain during exercise in the keto-adapted athlete. In part, the time it takes the body to choreograph these changes in whole body fuel flow explain why keto-adaptation takes a couple of weeks rather than just a few hours or days.

Phinney, Stephen; Jeff Volek (2012-06-15). The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance (p. 25). Beyond Obesity LLC. Kindle Edition.

I haven't seen any indication that this gradual adaptation is instantly undone if you eat a sugary dessert. Ketone production will likely stop, but as long as it starts up again soon, as the excess glucose clears and neoglucogenesis resumes, I wouldn't think you would be in too much trouble. Gluten exposure is a whole different matter. Keto-adaptation, the part that takes time, is not about producing ketones -- it's about bringing up blood levels to make them available to the brain.

 

[Gawan]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

... There is the idea also that some people are much more prone to gluconeogenesis than others. Maybe going high protein for as long as I did gave my liver an itchy trigger finger, so to speak.

I think that may be the case with me, even a small amount of protein over the recommended minimum per meal seems to bring on the signs of leaving/entering ketosis. I don't particularly measure the amount of protein, I know what 100g of a particular protein based food looks like, and only measure when eating a 'new type' of protein to get an idea of portion size.

The standard is about 100gr of meat contains about 18-24 grs of proteins. Some more, some less.

To give a tiny update:

The dizziness feeling is kind of persistent in the morning. So I did order the homeopathic cortisone supplement and tried beforehand to find out what else is in the tablets. Well, it contained wheat and milk, so it was of no use. Next step is asking my doctor if he likes to subscribe hydrocortisol for me

Over christmas days I did also introduce some other food: salad, pistachios, coffee, mushrooms, stevia, vitamin and cocoa and did use it barely over one week and took it out again. I was still in ketosis and the lowest result was 1.7 mmol/dl according to the precision xceed test meter.

To the bowel movement, at least the salad wasn't irritating and I'm also drinking now warm salted water in the morning which tastes a bit better.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...the lowest result was 1.7 mmol/dl according to the precision xceed test meter...

What time of day are you taking the readings? Ketones tend to rise over the course of the day, and in the hours after exercise.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The dizziness feeling is kind of persistent in the morning. So I did order the homeopathic cortisone supplement and tried beforehand to find out what else is in the tablets. Well, it contained wheat and milk, so it was of no use. Next step is asking my doctor if he likes to subscribe hydrocortisol for me

I think is worth asking. The doses are so ridiculously low that he or she has no good reason to make a fuss about it. You can print out the reference book about it:

Safe Uses Of Cortisol by William McK. Jefferies

_http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1654687.Safe_Uses_Of_Cortisol

The only hormone that is absolutely essential for life, cortisol has been used in the treatment of patients with rheumatoid arthritis and other autoimmune disorders as well as those suffering from allergies, chronic fatigue syndrome, acne, and other less common ailments. In this resource for medical professionals, Jefferies draws upon clinical research conducted during the 1950s demonstrating the benefits of safe, physiologic dosages of cortisol in the treatment of various conditions. Now retired, Jefferies taught internal medicine at the U. of Virginia in Charlottesville. Annotation ©2004 Book News, Inc., Portland, OR

I got a flu soon after having some black coffee over the holidays. I felt coming down with it within hours and after forgetting my hydrocortisone dose. That was a bad move over a few stressful days. Not forgetting again.

I am having benign paroxysmal positional vertigo, or vertigo for short. It is my right ear. I'll have to spend some days in full ketosis and away of coffee to see if it gets better. Last time I had vertigo was during the Japanese 9.0 earthquake. Then, during the Costa Rican earthquake awhile ago. I felt another earthquake last night near my location. But I think the biggie in my vertigo is the holiday dietary transgressions. Ketosis has a stabilizing effect or so it seems to me.

 

[Hildegarda]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

oxalates

Have you got some symptoms that make you think that Hildegarda?

I have all symptoms of UTI; initial test showed infection but I had to come back again and again as symptoms have not cleared despite the meds. I have just finally got it confirmed with my doctor that the infection is gone, but I still feel as I before. The only other choice is irritation due to oxalates. The only high-oxalate thing I still eat is cocoa and chocolate. Oh well.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I have all symptoms of UTI; initial test showed infection but I had to come back again and again as symptoms have not cleared despite the meds. I have just finally got it confirmed with my doctor that the infection is gone, but I still feel as I before. The only other choice is irritation due to oxalates. The only high-oxalate thing I still eat is cocoa and chocolate. Oh well.

Oh yeah, it is so hard to let it go... Had you tried D-mannose to see if the symptoms improve?

 

[Gawan]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...the lowest result was 1.7 mmol/dl according to the precision xceed test meter...

What time of day are you taking the readings? Ketones tend to rise over the course of the day, and in the hours after exercise.

It was right after standing up in the morning.

The dizziness feeling is kind of persistent in the morning. So I did order the homeopathic cortisone supplement and tried beforehand to find out what else is in the tablets. Well, it contained wheat and milk, so it was of no use. Next step is asking my doctor if he likes to subscribe hydrocortisol for me

I think is worth asking. The doses are so ridiculously low that he or she has no good reason to make a fuss about it. You can print out the reference book about it:

Safe Uses Of Cortisol by William McK. Jefferies

_http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1654687.Safe_Uses_Of_Cortisol

The only hormone that is absolutely essential for life, cortisol has been used in the treatment of patients with rheumatoid arthritis and other autoimmune disorders as well as those suffering from allergies, chronic fatigue syndrome, acne, and other less common ailments. In this resource for medical professionals, Jefferies draws upon clinical research conducted during the 1950s demonstrating the benefits of safe, physiologic dosages of cortisol in the treatment of various conditions. Now retired, Jefferies taught internal medicine at the U. of Virginia in Charlottesville. Annotation ©2004 Book News, Inc., Portland, OR

I got a flu soon after having some black coffee over the holidays. I felt coming down with it within hours and after forgetting my hydrocortisone dose. That was a bad move over a few stressful days. Not forgetting again.

I am having benign paroxysmal positional vertigo, or vertigo for short. It is my right ear. I'll have to spend some days in full ketosis and away of coffee to see if it gets better. Last time I had vertigo was during the Japanese 9.0 earthquake. Then, during the Costa Rican earthquake awhile ago. I felt another earthquake last night near my location. But I think the biggie in my vertigo is the holiday dietary transgressions. Ketosis has a stabilizing effect or so it seems to me.

Thanks for that Psyche