Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

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I’m almost sure that my reaction to pumpkin seed oil was because it was fried. I consumed it before, but uncooked and I felt fine.

It may be a very bad idea to heat oils containing significant amounts of polyunsaturated fat to high temperatures, and pumpkin seed oil does contain a lot of linoleic acid (18-63%, the largest single component), which is an omega-6 fatty acid. The lack of comment on the web specifically about heating pumpkin seed oil would seem now to reflect the general ignorance of the dangers of consuming let alone cooking with vegetable oils.

I goofed in my earlier post and mixed up linoleic acid with linolenic acid (now how could that happen?). Linolenic acid is an omega-3, but there is very little of it in pumpkin seed oil, making the oil severely out of balance with respect to omega-6/3 ratio (20:1 or worse).

So if you don't heat this oil, you get a significant dose of omega-6 with almost no balancing omega-3, and if you do heat it you can end up with a toxic mess. Now that I see my error, I would not expose myself to this stuff cold, let alone heat it! The bottom line is that it is a high omega-6 vegetable oil that can at the very least make you "feel funny" if you consume it cold, and that can produce something truly nasty when heated, especially at higher frying temperatures. I am sorry about the earlier mix-up.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Remember that after alcohol intake, liver and kidneys are under extra strain and are busy with eliminating the toxins from the body.

I remember reading the epigenetic changes that occur after quitting alcohol in the book The Epigenetics Revolution. Basically, a bunch of enzymes go dormant the longer you stay away from OH. Same concept may apply when quitting some vegetables. The longer you are on a 0 carb diet, the quieter carb digestive enzymes will be as they go through silencing epigenetic changes.

I've been thinking lately that a 0 carb diet is really very tough when there is adrenal fatigue. I ended up eating more protein than necessary because there was only so much fatty bone broth my digestive system was willing to process. To me, it feels that eating excess protein is worse. So I've been eating really low carb veggies, say no more than 5-10 grams a day, which is actually quite a lot of lettuce. Sometimes 2 grams of carbs is enough to satiate me, allowing me to forgo the extra protein easily. I'm going to experiment alternating 5 grams of carbs on tough days and 0 carbs on other days.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I came across an interesting post today about Epsom salt baths, at
_http://scdlifestyle.com/2013/01/how-to-take-epic-epsom-salt-baths

The recipe is very similar to Dr. Hyman's "UltraBath," but with a few refinements and with suggested adjustments you can make if you need to.

I have been using UltraBaths with some success to help deal with a persistent skin rash that worsened when I started the ketogenic diet. One thing that is different in this version is the addition of a few grams of ascorbic acid. Another is that the amount of sodium bicarbonate can be reduced. I have had trouble finding it in large boxes where I normally shop, so that will be helpful.

I soak anywhere from 20-40 minutes, and I look for something useful to do during that time. Usually I listen to my latest audiobook, but that can be stressful (an awful lot of what I read turns out to be). One suggestion here is to try meditation, and I am thinking now about how to adapt EE to soaking in the tub!

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...
I've been thinking lately that a 0 carb diet is really very tough when there is adrenal fatigue. I ended up eating more protein than necessary because there was only so much fatty bone broth my digestive system was willing to process. To me, it feels that eating excess protein is worse. So I've been eating really low carb veggies, say no more than 5-10 grams a day, which is actually quite a lot of lettuce. Sometimes 2 grams of carbs is enough to satiate me, allowing me to forgo the extra protein easily. I'm going to experiment alternating 5 grams of carbs on tough days and 0 carbs on other days.

I have been finding it impossible to do a true "zero carb" diet. Liver alone introduces a few carbs (it averages out to that over a week if you only have it once or twice). I have also noticed lately that the nutritional labeling on my pastured eggs also shows 1 gram per egg, which is somewhere around double that of ordinary eggs. Usually you see zero carbs for eggs, because anything under 0.5g is shown as zero. Eat three ordinary eggs, though, and you have over a gram even though the nutrition database shows zero. (This loophole is used by processed food manufacturers to hide trans fats -- they even sometimes make the serving sizes ridiculously small so that the grams of trans fat come out to under 0.5!)

I don't think it actually matters because these amounts of carbs shouldn't have much effect anyway, as long as they come from foods that don't provoke undesirable reactions. Small amounts of carbs in plant foods may matter even less if Jaminet is on the right track with the idea that the calories consumed by the immune system in regulating gut bacteria exceed those supplied by a few grams of carbs from plants here and there. Energy calculations do need to include the energetic cost of digestion, not just the available energy in the food.

I am also experimenting with low-carb veggies (no more than a couple or so net grams per serving). I have been avoiding plant foods for some time now, and the symptoms seem to have run their course, finally settling down with no significant headaches, only a little abdominal pain, and somewhat regular bowel movements.

I have had some time off due to my association's annual end-of-year closure, which helped me through some of the worst of it (which wasn't really too bad this time anyway). Before I return to work, however, I have wanted to try a few more things. If any of them blow up on me, at least it shouldn't interfere with work. So while I may be doing this a bit early, it's a good time to experiment.

Starting last Sunday, I began eating a couple of servings of sauerkraut each day (organic, and not pasteurized!). The idea was to flood my GI tract with beneficial bacteria, and give them just a little to eat. I used store-bought sauerkraut to avoid the fuss of making it. The net carbs were zero, and total carbs were around 1-2 g per serving. This is comparable to other low-carb veggies I have eaten without problems.

It seems to have worked. I had a little nausea after the first serving, but that passed quickly and I am feeling considerably better now than I did before I started. Now, after several days of that I am introducing a few other low-carb veggies, such as organic chard (my favorite) and organic mushrooms. The net carbs from those are around 2-4, and total carbs aren't much more. At some point I will eliminate the sauerkraut. I have reached the 1.5 day mark with the mushrooms without any problems, which is the amount of time it has been taking for FODMAP foods like mushrooms to react and, so far, so good. (We'll see how it goes in the morning.)

My thinking is that while fermented vegetables have a great reputation in the paleo community as natural probiotics, the best form of fermentation would probably be to do it naturally, right in the gut, using very low carb vegetables which even *I* tolerate well. I don't see any fat listed in the nutritional analysis for sauerkraut, and I believe that fermentation in the gut should provide a significant supply of short-chain fat, particularly butyrate. (See for instance _http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/12/butyric-acid-ancient-controller-of.html, which you cited here in November.)

I tried mushrooms once before, after reading about their value as "prebiotics," and it didn't work out. What I am trying to do is to find a way to start and maintain the natural fermentation process without having pathogenic microbes take over and spoil the party. I don't know where this is going just yet, but I can feel a difference this time and I am hopeful. If it doesn't work then I should be able to back up, make adjustments, and try again.

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Found an interesting article in the latest edition of the British Journal of Nutrition. While it doesn't deal with ketosis directly, it is about obesity and I thought I would post the abstract here. The reason is that many of us are taking Betaine HCl to supplement low levels of stomach acid, and it might be the case that betaine has other beneficial effects. I was unable to get the full article, so the only source I have is this abstract.

I have highlighted the pertinent sections.

(source: British Journal of Nutrition / Volume 109 / Issue 01 / January 2013, pp 43-49)

Betaine reduces the expression of inflammatory adipokines caused by hypoxia in human adipocytes

K. Ollia1 c1, S. Lahtinena1, N. Rautonena1 and K. Tiihonena1
a1 DuPont Nutrition and Health, Kantvik Active Nutrition, Sokeritehtaantie 20, FIN-02460 Kantvik, Finland

Abstract

Obesity is characterised by a state of chronic low-grade inflammation and the elevated circulating and tissue levels of inflammatory markers, including inflammation-related adipokines, released from white adipose tissue. The expression and release of these adipokines generally rises as the adipose tissue expands and hypoxic conditions start to develop within the tissue. Here, the effect of betaine, a trimethylglycine having a biological role as an osmolyte and a methyl donor, on the expression of inflammation-related markers was tested in human adipocytes under hypoxia. Differentiated adipocytes were cultivated under low (1 %) oxygen tension for 8–20 h. The expression of different adipokines, including IL-6, leptin, PPARγ, TNF-α and adiponectin, was measured by quantitative PCR by determining the relative mRNA level from the adipocytes. Hypoxia, in general, led to a decrease in the expression of PPARγ mRNA in human adipocytes, whereas the expression levels of leptin and IL-6 mRNA were substantially increased by hypoxia. The cultivation of adipocytes under hypoxia also led to a reduction in the expression of TNF-α mRNA. The results showed that hypoxia increased the relative quantification of leptin gene transcription, and that betaine (250 μmol/l) reduced this effect, caused by low oxygen conditions. Under hypoxia, betaine also reduced the mRNA level of the pro-inflammatory markers IL-6 and TNF-α. These results demonstrate that the extensive changes in the expression of inflammation-related adipokines in human adipocytes caused by hypoxia can be diminished by the presence of physiologically relevant concentrations of betaine.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Found an interesting article in the latest edition of the British Journal of Nutrition. While it doesn't deal with ketosis directly, it is about obesity and I thought I would post the abstract here. The reason is that many of us are taking Betaine HCl to supplement low levels of stomach acid, and it might be the case that betaine has other beneficial effects...

"Betaine" used alone normally refers to glycine betaine, which is also known as trimethylglycine (TMG), a form of the amino acid glycine. Betaine HCl (hydrochloride) is the chloride salt of TMG. They are chemically similar, but have different uses. What do you imagine the connection would be here?

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Found an interesting article in the latest edition of the British Journal of Nutrition. While it doesn't deal with ketosis directly, it is about obesity and I thought I would post the abstract here. The reason is that many of us are taking Betaine HCl to supplement low levels of stomach acid, and it might be the case that betaine has other beneficial effects...

"Betaine" used alone normally refers to glycine betaine, which is also known as trimethylglycine (TMG), a form of the amino acid glycine. Betaine HCl (hydrochloride) is the chloride salt of TMG. They are chemically similar, but have different uses. What do you imagine the connection would be here?

The way I understand the matter is, that Betaine HCl is the acidic form of Betaine - or TMG. So I think that once the body absorbs the Betaine HCl, at least part of the betaine will be in its non-acidic form.

However, chemistry has never been my forte, so maybe I'm wrong?

 

[Miss.K]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I'd like some advice on recommending material for people who are interested in knowing more about the way I eat. (not sure if this is the appropriate thread to ask this)

I don't feel confident in giving advice myself as my knowledge is limited. -I still haven't read all I'm supposed to read in order to know what I'm doing, and do as I do on own risk (I'm still so much better than before when I ate wheat dairy and sugar, and try to catch up on the knowledge little by little)

So I was wondering if recommending The Vegetarian myth, Primal Body Primal Mind, and Life without bread, is a good start when people ask?


Also I was wondering if there is any way to make healthy mayonnaise, as I've been eating more seafood lately, and would like some extra fat?

Thanks

 

[Carl]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I'd like some advice on recommending material for people who are interested in knowing more about the way I eat. (not sure if this is the appropriate thread to ask this)

I don't feel confident in giving advice myself as my knowledge is limited. -I still haven't read all I'm supposed to read in order to know what I'm doing, and do as I do on own risk (I'm still so much better than before when I ate wheat dairy and sugar, and try to catch up on the knowledge little by little)

So I was wondering if recommending The Vegetarian myth, Primal Body Primal Mind, and Life without bread, is a good start when people ask?


Also I was wondering if there is any way to make healthy mayonnaise, as I've been eating more seafood lately, and would like some extra fat?

Thanks

My copy of Primal Body, Primal Mind has made it's way around about 4 people now, I consider it the best one to recommend.

And for mayo, I usually use olive oil or lard. Olive oil is usually too strong unless you enjoy the taste, but try making it with melted lard, it's absolutely delicious!

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Also I was wondering if there is any way to make healthy mayonnaise, as I've been eating more seafood lately, and would like some extra fat?

I usually do my mayonnaise with macadamia oil ... but sometimes use grapeseed oil (not sure if that is really a good choice) and sometimes I use a specific very lightly flavoured extra virgin olive oil. As Carlisle has pointed out many olive oils are too strong and overpowering, but if you search around a little bit you might find one that works. The other funny thing about making mayonnaise with olive oil is the colour: it turns a hilarious markerpen-like yellow-green, but if you are not offended by the strange colour, go for it.

Never tried lard, must do so ...

 

[Seppo Ilmarinen]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Here is a website that has info about making animal fat mayonnaisse. In the recepies you should substitute canola oil with something better, like macadamia oil (or olive oil).

http://www.seriouseats.com/2009/10/the-food-lab-meatonnaise-mayonnaises-mayos-bacon-lamb-duck-beef-fats-science.html

 

[Chrissy]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Also I was wondering if there is any way to make healthy mayonnaise, as I've been eating more seafood lately, and would like some extra fat?

Thanks

My recipe for mayonnaise calls for 1 room temperature egg in the food processor with 1 1/2 tbs of lemon juice. You add a cup of oil slowly for emulsion. I've tried half olive oil and half avocado oil, but felt the olive oil taste is to strong. My last batch was with grapeseed oil and avocado oil which came much lighter in taste. I would like to try adding melted bacon fat next, because these oils are expensive.

 

[dugdeep]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I would caution against using grapeseed oil. It's very very high in inflammatory omega-6 fats and is generally a fairly processed oil. I've made mayonnaise with olive oil, avocado oil and lard+bacon fat in the past. The lard one turned out a bit weird in texture, so I think a combination with another oil would be a better way to go, although I haven't tried it myself.

 

[dugdeep]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I see the 25g number in PBPM ("It isn’t a good idea to exceed roughly 25 g of actual protein in a meal, however, as this is the mTOR-stimulating threshold"), but I see no citation for it. Did it come from Rosedale's work? Does it depend on reference weight? I don't know. It's just thrown out there as some sort of suggestion for living longer, and I believe there would have to be an implicit assumption that you are not trying to lose weight (i.e. you have a eucaloric diet). There could be sources contained in the early posts in this topic that I have overlooked.

With regard to suppression of ketogenesis, Gedgaudas repeats Phinney's 2004 recommendation to limit protein intake to no more than 25% of energy expenditure -- that is quite a bit. In that same article, Phinney says "The effects of reducing daily protein intake to below 1.2 g/ kg reference weight during a ketogenic diet include progressive loss of functional lean tissue and thus loss of physical performance, as demonstrated by Davis et al." PBPM doesn't mention that part! (In one place PBPM seems to say that any protein intake in excess of the RDA can suppress ketogenesis, so it doesn't even appear to be consistent with itself, let alone Phinney, unless I read it wrong. Maybe that happened with the 2nd edition of the book?)

Well maybe I'll start playing it a little more loose with the protein restriction and see how that goes. I'm well below the 1.2g/kg that Phinney recommends (that would be about 80g/day for me and many days, when I skip dinner, I'm at 50g). Even on 3 meal days I'm only hitting 75g, still below that 80g mark.

[quote author=Megan]

I don't think, at this point, we're in the realm of what paleolithic humans did, at least not how people usually think of paleolithic humans. Figuring out protein restriction to suppress mTor pathway and switch out malfunctioning mitochondria for healthy ones is not what our paleolithic ancestors would have stumbled on accidentally. We're in a whole different ballpark here.

Nora suggested that in part; hence the peculiar subtitle of the first edition of her book: "Empower Your Total Health the Way Evolution Intended (…and Didn't)". The thing about paleolithic humans is that many of them tended to be very healthy, without counting anything, and they moved and used their bodies in ways that maintained their mitochondria effectively. The mTOR idea is controversial -- I don't see a consensus forming as yet. Some people think it's just wrong. Personally, I think it is a good idea to avoid unnecessary protein consumption simply because protein is expensive. The importance of autophagy is understood and accepted by most sources I have read recently, and ketogenic paleolithic humans would have encouraged that too, without even knowing about it.[/quote]

You think so? I think this way of eating is rather "unnatural" and tends to go against what a paleolithic human would fall into based on following hunger signals. To me, this whole diet is like walking a tightrope - too much protein, which is really easy to fall into, and you lose balance. Too much carb and you lose balance. God forbid you have a celebratory feast once in awhile. I find it takes me about a week to get back on track after any diversion from course and that usually means struggling against cravings.

Overall, I find it hard to believe that ketogenic paleolithic humans would have encouraged autophagy without understanding why they were doing it unless they were in tune with their bodies in ways we can't begin to understand. But I suppose that's possible. Certainly just following your appetite will not result in this style of eating, OSIT.

[quote author=Megan]

[quote author=Megan]
You say that the protein is increasing blood sugar, but have you measured your blood sugar to confirm this?

No, I don't have the means. As I said, I'm only going by what I felt as far as symptoms go. No objective measurements, so I could be wrong. That said, what I was feeling was not a "signal" of the stomach emptying or anything like that. It was low blood sugar symptoms or something that mimicked those - ravenous hunger, crankiness, irritability, sometimes hot or cold flashes, sometimes headaches or lightheadedness. That was a big hint to me that I wasn't in ketosis, because skipping a meal was not the least bit comfortable.
[/quote]

Yes, low blood glucose, not high. Too much protein will stimulate insulin, taking you out of ketosis and lowering blood glucose. Maybe you are especially prone to that. You can buy a glucometer fairly cheaply at a drug store.[/quote]

Hmmm... I hadn't thought of that. So you're suggesting that the excessive protein caused an insulin spike which led to low blood sugar rather than what I had assumed - that protein was being converted to sugar, causing a rise in blood sugar and in turn causing a crash, or at least keeping me in sugar-burner mode. I suppose that could be the case. Perhaps I should get myself a glucometer and do some experimenting.

None the less, I think whatever was happening was suppressing ketosis, because once I did start lowering protein consumption I went through ketosis transition symptoms allover again. But I guess I won't know for sure without blood glucose measurements.

 

[anart]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

You think so? I think this way of eating is rather "unnatural" and tends to go against what a paleolithic human would fall into based on following hunger signals. To me, this whole diet is like walking a tightrope - too much protein, which is really easy to fall into, and you lose balance. Too much carb and you lose balance. God forbid you have a celebratory feast once in awhile. I find it takes me about a week to get back on track after any diversion from course and that usually means struggling against cravings.

Sounds to me like you take way too many 'diversions' - my experience has not been at all like yours. I have steady and high levels of energy (higher than any other time in my life), I don't have cravings, I eat when I'm hungry, which tends to be breakfast (sausage and bacon) and lunch (half a pork chop or an equivalent of that and, sometimes, some bone broth) and then usually bone broth for dinner. That's it - other than some butter/stevia chocolate after meals. I don't "lose balance" - if I miss a meal, no biggie because I don't have blood sugar fluctuations, I just keep burning fat. A celebratory feast for me is just a variation on the same food I usually eat because it makes me feel good


I think those of you who are having all these problems just haven't actually settled into a ketogenic diet - if you had, these cravings and needs for 'diversions' would be gone by now. This is not - in any way - a "tightrope" diet - not even close. It's simple, effective and very satisfying - at least that's been my experience.

Certainly just following your appetite will not result in this style of eating, OSIT.

I couldn't disagree more - as evidenced by how I've lived and eaten for the past almost two years and how I feel now as a result.