Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[LQB]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I have all symptoms of UTI; initial test showed infection but I had to come back again and again as symptoms have not cleared despite the meds. I have just finally got it confirmed with my doctor that the infection is gone, but I still feel as I before. The only other choice is irritation due to oxalates. The only high-oxalate thing I still eat is cocoa and chocolate. Oh well.

Oh yeah, it is so hard to let it go... Had you tried D-mannose to see if the symptoms improve?

That's what I was going to suggest too. If you are getting oxalate sand, that might explain the continuing discomfort. Maybe try warm distilled water with a little salt.

 

[Hildegarda]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Oh yeah, it is so hard to let it go... Had you tried D-mannose to see if the symptoms improve?

I did -- thank you -- and I think this was what cleared the infection. It's really great.

 

[dugdeep]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Did you even out the protein amount per meal, or did you reduce total protein?

Per meal. I try to keep it under 25g per meal, regardless of how many meals I'm eating. Doing this definitely brought me into ketosis, which I thought I had already been in since I was eating zero carb for about a year, but clearly wasn't in ketosis given the blood sugar swings.

So you distributed the protein amount evenly between meals, keeping the total the same?

Not quite sure what you mean by this. Basically I figure out that my ideal protein intake was 75g per day and, since it's not recommended anyone go over 25g protein per meal anyway, I decided to aim for 25g per meal. I usually eat 3 meals per day, at least when I work I do. Days off I'll often only end up having 2.

[quote author=Megan]
If you simply reduce the per-meal amount, the total goes down too. If it goes down too far, you may very well have problems with satiety. Your body doesn't really want to cannibalize itself, but without enough dietary protein it may have to. [/quote]

I don't think this is an issue for me. As I said, when I stick to the plan, 25g protein per meal, I'm satiated and have normal energy levels. Going over that makes me hungry sooner and may bring up cravings.

[quote author=Megan]
Is your present weight (165 based on your last post) a "normal" weight for your height? If it is your "about right" weight, your protein RDA would be 60 g/d. If you only eat two meals with 25g per meal of protein, that's below the RDA, although it sounds like it would average out as long as you have 75g on some days.[/quote]

You're right - my original calculations showed 75g per day to be my ideal, but I guess I was using a higher weight for my "ideal". 165 is the high end of normal weight for my height, according to some random BMI calculator (although, quite frankly, I don't trust BMI calculations at all). I could probably stand to lose a bit more fat and and gain a bit more muscle, but scale weight is probably around where it should be. Anyway, since we're not going over 25g of protein per meal, on days when I'm only eating two meals I should probably have some sort of light protein snack at the end of the day to make up that missing 10g.

[quote author=Megan]
Depending on how active you are, however, even 75g could be too low. This could also be the case if 165 is underweight for you. In any event, you should have room to increase protein a bit to balance hunger. [/quote]

Well, as I said, I don't think it's low protein that makes me hungry. I might do some experimenting to see what happens, but for the most part I think the 25g per meal is working out well. As per Laura's last post, I might add some plant foods in to increase the fibre a bit since my bowels are still not moving without the aid of coffee or enemas.

[quote author=Megan]
I don't count out grams of protein per day to determine how much to eat, and neither did paleolithic humans. If I am hungry, I eat more. If not, I eat less. If I am *really* hungry for carbs then I have some carbs (paleo ones, of course). [/quote]

I don't think, at this point, we're in the realm of what paleolithic humans did, at least not how people usually think of paleolithic humans. Figuring out protein restriction to suppress mTor pathway and switch out malfunctioning mitochondria for healthy ones is not what our paleolithic ancestors would have stumbled on accidentally. We're in a whole different ballpark here.

[quote author=Megan]
Doing so tends to put an end to any craving, and limited carb intake does not interfere with neoglucogenesis -- it will down-regulate but not shut down, and the liver gets a break. Since I am not really eating a natural human diet, I do pay attention to the macronutrient balance and the micronutrient availability to try to avoid problems. To accomplish that, now and then I do the calculations -- especially if I notice a problem -- and I use that information to adjust what foods I buy, when necessary. [/quote]

That's also my approach.

[quote author=Megan]
You say that the protein is increasing blood sugar, but have you measured your blood sugar to confirm this?[/quote]

No, I don't have the means. As I said, I'm only going by what I felt as far as symptoms go. No objective measurements, so I could be wrong. That said, what I was feeling was not a "signal" of the stomach emptying or anything like that. It was low blood sugar symptoms or something that mimicked those - ravenous hunger, crankiness, irritability, sometimes hot or cold flashes, sometimes headaches or lightheadedness. That was a big hint to me that I wasn't in ketosis, because skipping a meal was not the least bit comfortable.

[quote author=Megan]
There are a good many reasons why excess protein is undesirable. Out-of-control neoglucogenesis is just not one that I routinely see listed. Appetite is complex, and there could be many reasons why eating more protein makes you feel hungry.[/quote]

Well, then the question should be what is the evidence for and against the idea that excess protein is converted to sugar? Ron Rosedale and Nora Gedgaudas say that it is, others say that it's not. What does the science say?

[quote author=Megan]
I find Jaminet's "nutrient hunger" hypothesis to be interesting, and worth considering when I have hunger problems that I can't account for. Basically, when that happens you look for possible nutritional deficiencies. The trick is to know what to look for.
[/quote]

This actually isn't Jaminet's idea. This theory has been bandied about in holistic health circles for decades now. I think it may have even been Weston A. Price who talked about this, but I may be wrong about that. Some have said that obesity is actually a disease of starvation, not excess, because the body is starving for micronutrients missing or depleted in the current food chain and so overeats macronutrients in an attempt to get them.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Posted earlier today: Ketosis 101 Part I, by Peter Attia, M.D.
http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/ketosis-advantaged-or-misunderstood-state-part-i?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=ketosis-advantaged-or-misunderstood-state-part-i

Interesting reading; great review. I can't wait for part II!

No more need to wait...

_http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/ketosis-advantaged-or-misunderstood-state-part-ii

 

[Hesper]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I'm not sure what my daily intake was since I wasn't measuring at this point, but it wasn't unusual for me to eat a 10oz steak or a couple of pork chops slathered in ghee or lard as a meal three times per day. I would often eat 3/4 of a pound of bacon in one sitting. I've always had a large appetite accompanied by a high level of food anxiety throughout my life, so this was consistent with my "big eater" pattern. It wasn't until going into ketosis proper that this all changed. I now consistently eat 3oz of meat and a whackload of fat per meal, and will eat two or three meals depending on whether or not I feel hungry. Food anxiety doesn't really exist anymore, but I still have to watch the "big eater" pattern of behaviour which will still rear its ugly head on occasion and lead me to overeat protein.

I'm the same way. I can still try and cure emotional issues with food, but in all I rarely do get more than three ounces of meat in a meal. It has been a strange change, especially during the holidays, when everyone is gorging themselves on sweets, meats, veggies and anything that falls on their plate. I remember those days, and at Christmas I felt a strong desire to just dig in and "eat the pain away". But obviously that's just the struggle between yes and no. As long as I get the fat in every meal I don't feel hungry after stopping at three ounces. And if that fat comes off the animal, instead of say butter, it's even better than the protein!

I have noticed that the more fat I get the more I get a buzzing sensation that ripples throughout my legs (I remember others mentioning similar). Sometimes it comes through my eyes as well. I'm not sure what that is but thought I'd mention it, since it seems to be associated with fat intake.

 

[Search]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I understand it is rather individual, but I curious if there any clear signals that would indicate that i'm no-longer in ketosis, because i'm worried about my yesterday’s sugar intake interrupting with it. And how fast can the body leave the ketosis state if you have been in it for quite a while and suddenly for 1 or 2 days you eat a high amount of sugar/carbs.

Probably you came out of ketosis. You can re-start with a good fatty breakfast and then during the day have some semi-fasting with bone broth. Then you'll go back to ketosis soon enough. I would also try to even out your protein intake throughout the day.

Thank you. That is similar to what I did, although unintentionally, last time I came back from my parents'. Now I'm also evening out my protein intake.

One more thing Serg, was the cake you ate gluten-free (really gluten-free) from some other "flour?" Eating cake is bad enough in other ways but if grain flour (not necessarily wheat) was used it's much worse. Gluten and similar compounds and lectins/anti-nutrients are REALLY bad, and it's hard to say if your issues are "just" carb sensitivity/reactions or related to these other substances. And many non-gluten flours can still be contaminated with gluten at the mill, etc. Just wanted to point all this out, fwiw.

You are absolutely right, that is why I never buy any gluten-free food. I can say that I'm very careful about avoiding gluten, e.g. my wife has even found some barley grains in buckwheat and a lot of other things. Concerning this particular cake it contained coffee beans, cinnamon sticks, walnuts, almonds, dates, eggs, salt, fresh coconuts and sodium bicarbonate. All the ingredients were grinded/mixed at home.

Add: BTW I have observed my reaction to all the seperate ingredients in this cake, except for my reaction to dates. But they are very high in sugar and I have always had a bad reaction to sweet fruits since my diet change.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...Add: BTW I have observed my reaction to all the seperate ingredients in this cake, except for my reaction to dates. But they are very high in sugar and I have always had a bad reaction to sweet fruits since my diet change.

Dates are loaded with sugar, much of which is fructose. Depending on how many dates you used to make the cake, it could pack a wallop. Still, you are better off getting it in the form of dates than in the form of crystallized sugar. Other sugary high-fructose foods include apples, pears, grapes, and honey.

Supposedly, many people have problems with fructose malabsorption. If you are one of them, it might help explain the reaction.

Are you feeling better now?

 

[Search]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I understand it is rather individual, but I curious if there any clear signals that would indicate that i'm no-longer in ketosis, because i'm worried about my yesterday’s sugar intake interrupting with it. And how fast can the body leave the ketosis state if you have been in it for quite a while and suddenly for 1 or 2 days you eat a high amount of sugar/carbs.

Probably you came out of ketosis. You can re-start with a good fatty breakfast and then during the day have some semi-fasting with bone broth. Then you'll go back to ketosis soon enough. I would also try to even out your protein intake throughout the day.

You can also urge it along with high-MCT foods or even a leucine supplement, but I would think that it would be better to just let the body recover.

Gluconeogenesis seems to be immediately responsive to food intake. I have never experience any direct sensation of a blood sugar drop as a result of eating excess carbs (i.e. substantially greater than 50 g/d), not that I have had many opportunities to test it. I do see some measured blood glucose increase, temporarily, after traveling (when I have had a higher carb intake).

Ketosis would appear to be more sensitive to food intake. I haven't observed my own levels as closely as my glucose levels -- due to the cost -- so I don't have as much direct information about them. I did, however, have a "lapse" over a year ago while I was on vacation, and I ate a large piece of cake. Not gluten free, either. I was able to observe a few things from that. It was about 3-4 months after I started a ketogenic diet.

At the time I was not having acute allergic reactions to gluten, and there wasn't a lot of aftermath. The only strong reaction was that I felt a lot of fatigue the next day and I was generally weaker than usual. The fatigue did not persist, however, as it might during keto-readaptation, and it didn't affect my vacation too much. We had a cabin with a kitchen, and for the most part I stuck with the same foods I had been eating at home. This helps explain the minimal side effects, I think.

I didn't have a ketone meter at the time to take measurements, so I don't know what happened to my ketones. It might have taken a couple of weeks to return to completely feeling normal, but I tend to suspect now that this had more to do with the gluten than the carbs or ketone levels.

The more recent tests that I have done with varying carb intake might have revealed a little more about keto-adaptation, at least the way it works in me. Again, I didn't yet have a ketone meter so I don't know the actual levels. What I do know is that going up to 50 g/d of carbs did not produce any "carb adaptation" effects, but that coming back down after a long time at 50 g/d did require going through a short (~1 week) keto-adaptation period where I felt more tired than usually, and generally just a bit "off." Twice, in fact, since I dropped to ~30/g day, and then later on down to just a few grams per day (I get a few carbs from liver, eggs, and supplements). Each time I felt minor adaptation symptoms (and I increased my salt intake).

Once I was able to go down to minimal carb intake and stay there (i.e. without my body revolting from the low carb intake), I did not go through keto-adaptation symptoms again, even when I raised and lowered my carb intake. It may be that you have to stay at a higher level for weeks or months before that becomes necessary again. Phinney & Volek discuss keto-adaptation in their newest book (TAASOLCP):

At the most basic level keto-adaptation involves an increase in the body’s production and utilization of ketones. However, this is a complex and coordinated sequence of highly orchestrated events requiring adaptations in the type of fuel used by most cells in the body. Ketone production occurs mainly in the liver in response to a combination of increased delivery of fatty acids and depletion of hepatic glycogen reserves. The ketones produced in the liver are then transported by the circulation to other cells in the body including muscle and brain. In skeletal muscle, the first few days of keto-adaptation result in increased use of both ketones plus fatty acids from a variety of sources (adipose or intra-muscular triglycerides, or from circulating very low density lipoprotein particles). Once the process of keto-adaptation is complete (which takes from a few weeks to a month), muscle both at rest and during exercise comes to rely heavily on fatty acids. This adaptation of the muscle away from ketone use spares hepatic ketone production for use by other tissues, especially the brain.

This is a key point. Practically speaking, the brain can burn only glucose or ketones. On a very low carbohydrate diet, the brain comes to rely on ketones as its primary fuel. Although ketones are preferentially taken up by the brain, because of the large mass of skeletal muscle and the increase in blood flow to active muscles during exercise, this delayed shift of the muscles away from ketones and towards fatty acid use is vital to preserving fuel flow to the brain during exercise in the keto-adapted athlete. In part, the time it takes the body to choreograph these changes in whole body fuel flow explain why keto-adaptation takes a couple of weeks rather than just a few hours or days.

Phinney, Stephen; Jeff Volek (2012-06-15). The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance (p. 25). Beyond Obesity LLC. Kindle Edition.

I haven't seen any indication that this gradual adaptation is instantly undone if you eat a sugary dessert. Ketone production will likely stop, but as long as it starts up again soon, as the excess glucose clears and neoglucogenesis resumes, I wouldn't think you would be in too much trouble. Gluten exposure is a whole different matter. Keto-adaptation, the part that takes time, is not about producing ketones -- it's about bringing up blood levels to make them available to the brain.

Thanks a lot for this information. Another way to describe how my body has been reacting to the dessert is like a car that has stopped and has difficulties riding up the hill and my organs around the sides of my stomach, especially my liver, feel warmer and swollen.
My body reacts to sugar in very similar way to how it did to alcohol when I used to drink and when I wasn’t on this diet (except I don’t feel drunk from sugar of course).
Eating fat and semi-fasting seems to rally help. Usually after exceeding my carb limit (on occasions that I mentioned earlier), my body doesn’t seem to want food, despite the possible cravings.
Charcoal helps me in such situations, I take it with me when I go to visit my parents or in similar situations.

 

[Search]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...Add: BTW I have observed my reaction to all the seperate ingredients in this cake, except for my reaction to dates. But they are very high in sugar and I have always had a bad reaction to sweet fruits since my diet change.

Dates are loaded with sugar, much of which is fructose. Depending on how many dates you used to make the cake, it could pack a wallop. Still, you are better off getting it in the form of dates than in the form of crystallized sugar. Other sugary high-fructose foods include apples, pears, grapes, and honey.

Supposedly, many people have problems with fructose malabsorption. If you are one of them, it might help explain the reaction.

Are you feeling better now?

Thanks again for your post, if fructose malabsorption were my, then why have I never experienced any of the related symptoms in the past before having change my diet?
When we were buying the dates we checked for the ingredients and find them on the box, instead we found that they were natural and clean. I just checked the box to check how many grams it had and I found out that they contain sulfur dioxide (E220). I know for sure that sugar has given me such reaction but sulfur dioxide must have given its own reaction too.
Yes, I feel better now. I start my days mostly with almost pure fat. Thank you for your support.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...
Dates are loaded with sugar, much of which is fructose. Depending on how many dates you used to make the cake, it could pack a wallop. Still, you are better off getting it in the form of dates than in the form of crystallized sugar. Other sugary high-fructose foods include apples, pears, grapes, and honey.

Supposedly, many people have problems with fructose malabsorption. If you are one of them, it might help explain the reaction...

Thanks again for your post, if fructose malabsorption were my, then why have I never experienced any of the related symptoms in the past before having change my diet?
...

Sure. The symptoms include intestinal bloating and pain, gas, constipation/diarrhea, and stomach pain. Have you had any of that?

Overgrowth of pathogenic microbes in the intestines can also produce a variety of symtoms that worsen when you feed them what they like. I wonder if this could actually be what causes fructose malabsorption?

 

[Search]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...
Dates are loaded with sugar, much of which is fructose. Depending on how many dates you used to make the cake, it could pack a wallop. Still, you are better off getting it in the form of dates than in the form of crystallized sugar. Other sugary high-fructose foods include apples, pears, grapes, and honey.

Supposedly, many people have problems with fructose malabsorption. If you are one of them, it might help explain the reaction...

Thanks again for your post, if fructose malabsorption were my, then why have I never experienced any of the related symptoms in the past before having change my diet?
...

Sure. The symptoms include intestinal bloating and pain, gas, constipation/diarrhea, and stomach pain. Have you had any of that?

Overgrowth of pathogenic microbes in the intestines can also produce a variety of symtoms that worsen when you feed them what they like. I wonder if this could actually be what causes fructose malabsorption?

Before my big diet changes, I cannot recall having any of the above reactions to fructose at all. I lived with my parents in a small town and we had out fruits and vegetables and meat. I ate as much fruit as i wanted and reacted well to them.

I get some of these symptoms when I test my tolerance to certain food, which shows me that I should avoid that certain food. For example, there was a situation when we ran out of lard and tried frying liver on pumpkin seed oil (big mistake). The reaction was horrible and much worse than this one.
If I do have fructose malabsorbtion, then it must be something recent. BTW I react in a similar but milder way to high carb consumption.

 

[Keit]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

My body reacts to sugar in very similar way to how it did to alcohol when I used to drink and when I wasn’t on this diet (except I don’t feel drunk from sugar of course).

Have the same hangover reaction every time I break the diet and eat fruits or/and chocolate loaded in sugar. The reason why you didn't have this reaction before probably has to do with changes in gastric microflora, brain chemistry and overall bodily state after switching to a more "cleaner" way of functioning. Remember that after alcohol intake, liver and kidneys are under extra strain and are busy with eliminating the toxins from the body.

Also, some of the main hangover symptoms are considered to be hypoglycemia and acetaldehyde intoxication. Hypoglycaemia is caused by an overproduction of insulin from the pancreas, something that happens after a meal with a lot of carbohydrates (or sugar in form of fruits and/ or chocolate). Acetaldehyde occurs naturally in coffee, fruits, and is produced by plants as part of their normal metabolism. So, if you are usually on a ketogenic diet, introducing large amounts of fruits and plants will act like a real poison. Add to this the general inflammation of the digestive tract (changed microflora, remember?) and the brain, it's no wonder that the feeling is as if one was drinking all night long. Basically, it's really not a good thing to play with body like this, and it's a good reminder and new year resolution to myself as well.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...The symptoms include intestinal bloating and pain, gas, constipation/diarrhea, and stomach pain. Have you had any of that?

Overgrowth of pathogenic microbes in the intestines can also produce a variety of symtoms that worsen when you feed them what they like. I wonder if this could actually be what causes fructose malabsorption?

Before my big diet changes, I cannot recall having any of the above reactions to fructose at all. I lived with my parents in a small town and we had out fruits and vegetables and meat. I ate as much fruit as i wanted and reacted well to them.

I get some of these symptoms when I test my tolerance to certain food, which shows me that I should avoid that certain food. For example, there was a situation when we ran out of lard and tried frying liver on pumpkin seed oil (big mistake). The reaction was horrible and much worse than this one.
If I do have fructose malabsorbtion, then it must be something recent. BTW I react in a similar but milder way to high carb consumption.

With the exception of those with a rare genetic defect, I am not certain that anyone really "has" fructose malabsorption. The term is descriptive of something that is not well understood, a diagnostic category that is not associated with a clear cause. But you gave yourself a heavy dose of fructose (from dates) and felt poorly afterward, which could offer you clues about what you need to know. Fructose is also implicated in the kinds of microbial overgrowths I mentioned earlier.

The smaller amounts of fructose found in some fruits, including various kinds of berries, shouldn't be a problem unless you have a particular sensitivity to something in them. The upper GI tract and liver should take up the fructose at those levels and convert it to fat. It's not going to do anything good for ketone levels, I don't think, but it might not hurt -- that would be something to measure. I have a few berries occasionally, but not regularly and certainly not with added sugar, and not right now while I am trying to resolve persistent gut issues. They contain nutrients that could feed beneficial gut bacteria that make fats, or that could feed pathogenic bacteria if you have a problem with that.

Pumpkin oil contains a mixture of omega-3, monosaturated, and saturated fats. When you heat it, you destroy the essential fatty acids, and possibly introduce toxicity, but nothing alarming turned up in a quick search I did just now. If it isn't cold pressed, I wouldn't touch it. Food "manufaturers" routinely use highly toxic industrial solvents to extract seed oils, thereby saving money at the expense of your health. In any case, I don't know why you would react that way to a single exposure. It's basically just fat.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...So you distributed the protein amount evenly between meals, keeping the total the same?

Not quite sure what you mean by this. Basically I figure out that my ideal protein intake was 75g per day and, since it's not recommended anyone go over 25g protein per meal anyway, I decided to aim for 25g per meal. I usually eat 3 meals per day, at least when I work I do. Days off I'll often only end up having 2.

That's what I meant.

...
[quote author=Megan]
Is your present weight (165 based on your last post) a "normal" weight for your height? If it is your "about right" weight, your protein RDA would be 60 g/d. If you only eat two meals with 25g per meal of protein, that's below the RDA, although it sounds like it would average out as long as you have 75g on some days.

You're right - my original calculations showed 75g per day to be my ideal, but I guess I was using a higher weight for my "ideal". 165 is the high end of normal weight for my height, according to some random BMI calculator (although, quite frankly, I don't trust BMI calculations at all). I could probably stand to lose a bit more fat and and gain a bit more muscle, but scale weight is probably around where it should be. Anyway, since we're not going over 25g of protein per meal, on days when I'm only eating two meals I should probably have some sort of light protein snack at the end of the day to make up that missing 10g.
[/quote]

I see the 25g number in PBPM ("It isn’t a good idea to exceed roughly 25 g of actual protein in a meal, however, as this is the mTOR-stimulating threshold"), but I see no citation for it. Did it come from Rosedale's work? Does it depend on reference weight? I don't know. It's just thrown out there as some sort of suggestion for living longer, and I believe there would have to be an implicit assumption that you are not trying to lose weight (i.e. you have a eucaloric diet). There could be sources contained in the early posts in this topic that I have overlooked.

With regard to suppression of ketogenesis, Gedgaudas repeats Phinney's 2004 recommendation to limit protein intake to no more than 25% of energy expenditure -- that is quite a bit. In that same article, Phinney says "The effects of reducing daily protein intake to below 1.2 g/ kg reference weight during a ketogenic diet include progressive loss of functional lean tissue and thus loss of physical performance, as demonstrated by Davis et al." PBPM doesn't mention that part! (In one place PBPM seems to say that any protein intake in excess of the RDA can suppress ketogenesis, so it doesn't even appear to be consistent with itself, let alone Phinney, unless I read it wrong. Maybe that happened with the 2nd edition of the book?)

...
[quote author=Megan]
I don't count out grams of protein per day to determine how much to eat, and neither did paleolithic humans. If I am hungry, I eat more. If not, I eat less. If I am *really* hungry for carbs then I have some carbs (paleo ones, of course).

I don't think, at this point, we're in the realm of what paleolithic humans did, at least not how people usually think of paleolithic humans. Figuring out protein restriction to suppress mTor pathway and switch out malfunctioning mitochondria for healthy ones is not what our paleolithic ancestors would have stumbled on accidentally. We're in a whole different ballpark here.
[/quote]

Nora suggested that in part; hence the peculiar subtitle of the first edition of her book: "Empower Your Total Health the Way Evolution Intended (…and Didn't)". The thing about paleolithic humans is that many of them tended to be very healthy, without counting anything, and they moved and used their bodies in ways that maintained their mitochondria effectively. The mTOR idea is controversial -- I don't see a consensus forming as yet. Some people think it's just wrong. Personally, I think it is a good idea to avoid unnecessary protein consumption simply because protein is expensive. The importance of autophagy is understood and accepted by most sources I have read recently, and ketogenic paleolithic humans would have encouraged that too, without even knowing about it.

The numbers we use aren't all that accurate, and aren't a complete measure of what is required to be healthy, even for a hypothetical average human let alone individuals with their differences. The numbers are useful up to a point. After that it's up to personal (n=1) experiments, group experiments, weighing different conflicting views, and guesswork.

[quote author=Megan]
You say that the protein is increasing blood sugar, but have you measured your blood sugar to confirm this?

No, I don't have the means. As I said, I'm only going by what I felt as far as symptoms go. No objective measurements, so I could be wrong. That said, what I was feeling was not a "signal" of the stomach emptying or anything like that. It was low blood sugar symptoms or something that mimicked those - ravenous hunger, crankiness, irritability, sometimes hot or cold flashes, sometimes headaches or lightheadedness. That was a big hint to me that I wasn't in ketosis, because skipping a meal was not the least bit comfortable.
[/quote]

Yes, low blood glucose, not high. Too much protein will stimulate insulin, taking you out of ketosis and lowering blood glucose. Maybe you are especially prone to that. You can buy a glucometer fairly cheaply at a drug store.

[quote author=Megan]
There are a good many reasons why excess protein is undesirable. Out-of-control neoglucogenesis is just not one that I routinely see listed. Appetite is complex, and there could be many reasons why eating more protein makes you feel hungry.

Well, then the question should be what is the evidence for and against the idea that excess protein is converted to sugar? Ron Rosedale and Nora Gedgaudas say that it is, others say that it's not. What does the science say?
[/quote]

Yes, I noticed that Nora does say that in PBPM. With no citation. She just says it (sometimes she repeats, and includes a citation in only one place; I don't know if that is the case here).

I tried to find more about it on Rosedale's website recently, but I didn't come across anything. Other scientists I have heard from say "Huh? Where did that idea come from? It's probably not true." Without any more information than that, I am inclined to disregard Nora's claim for now.

[quote author=Megan]
I find Jaminet's "nutrient hunger" hypothesis to be interesting, and worth considering when I have hunger problems that I can't account for. Basically, when that happens you look for possible nutritional deficiencies. The trick is to know what to look for.

This actually isn't Jaminet's idea. This theory has been bandied about in holistic health circles for decades now. I think it may have even been Weston A. Price who talked about this, but I may be wrong about that. Some have said that obesity is actually a disease of starvation, not excess, because the body is starving for micronutrients missing or depleted in the current food chain and so overeats macronutrients in an attempt to get them.
[/quote]

I picked up the idea first from Deep Nutrition. Jaminet's contribution is that he provides a detailed guide to nutritional requirements in his book. Whether all the details of his analysis are correct or not is uncertain, and I suspect there are issues here and there, but he still did a pretty nice job based on what is known.

 

[Search]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

My body reacts to sugar in very similar way to how it did to alcohol when I used to drink and when I wasn’t on this diet (except I don’t feel drunk from sugar of course).

Have the same hangover reaction every time I break the diet and eat fruits or/and chocolate loaded in sugar. The reason why you didn't have this reaction before probably has to do with changes in gastric microflora, brain chemistry and overall bodily state after switching to a more "cleaner" way of functioning. Remember that after alcohol intake, liver and kidneys are under extra strain and are busy with eliminating the toxins from the body.

Also, some of the main hangover symptoms are considered to be hypoglycemia and acetaldehyde intoxication. Hypoglycaemia is caused by an overproduction of insulin from the pancreas, something that happens after a meal with a lot of carbohydrates (or sugar in form of fruits and/ or chocolate). Acetaldehyde occurs naturally in coffee, fruits, and is produced by plants as part of their normal metabolism. So, if you are usually on a ketogenic diet, introducing large amounts of fruits and plants will act like a real poison. Add to this the general inflammation of the digestive tract (changed microflora, remember?) and the brain, it's no wonder that the feeling is as if one was drinking all night long. Basically, it's really not a good thing to play with body like this, and it's a good reminder and new year resolution to myself as well.

The cleaner the body, the more it reacts to ‘pollution’. Like with alcohol, a person who doesn’t drink or drinks rarely reacts to the alcohol in much more sensitive way than a person who is used to drinking and it doesn’t mean that it harms him less.
I felt pain in pancreas as well and my first thought was ‘insulin overproduction’.
Thanks for information.

...The symptoms include intestinal bloating and pain, gas, constipation/diarrhea, and stomach pain. Have you had any of that?

Overgrowth of pathogenic microbes in the intestines can also produce a variety of symtoms that worsen when you feed them what they like. I wonder if this could actually be what causes fructose malabsorption?

Before my big diet changes, I cannot recall having any of the above reactions to fructose at all. I lived with my parents in a small town and we had out fruits and vegetables and meat. I ate as much fruit as i wanted and reacted well to them.

I get some of these symptoms when I test my tolerance to certain food, which shows me that I should avoid that certain food. For example, there was a situation when we ran out of lard and tried frying liver on pumpkin seed oil (big mistake). The reaction was horrible and much worse than this one.
If I do have fructose malabsorbtion, then it must be something recent. BTW I react in a similar but milder way to high carb consumption.

With the exception of those with a rare genetic defect, I am not certain that anyone really "has" fructose malabsorption. The term is descriptive of something that is not well understood, a diagnostic category that is not associated with a clear cause. But you gave yourself a heavy dose of fructose (from dates) and felt poorly afterward, which could offer you clues about what you need to know. Fructose is also implicated in the kinds of microbial overgrowths I mentioned earlier.

The smaller amounts of fructose found in some fruits, including various kinds of berries, shouldn't be a problem unless you have a particular sensitivity to something in them. The upper GI tract and liver should take up the fructose at those levels and convert it to fat. It's not going to do anything good for ketone levels, I don't think, but it might not hurt -- that would be something to measure. I have a few berries occasionally, but not regularly and certainly not with added sugar, and not right now while I am trying to resolve persistent gut issues. They contain nutrients that could feed beneficial gut bacteria that make fats, or that could feed pathogenic bacteria if you have a problem with that.

Pumpkin oil contains a mixture of omega-3, monosaturated, and saturated fats. When you heat it, you destroy the essential fatty acids, and possibly introduce toxicity, but nothing alarming turned up in a quick search I did just now. If it isn't cold pressed, I wouldn't touch it. Food "manufaturers" routinely use highly toxic industrial solvents to extract seed oils, thereby saving money at the expense of your health. In any case, I don't know why you would react that way to a single exposure. It's basically just fat.

I’m almost sure that my reaction to pumpkin seed oil was because it was fried. I consumed it before, but uncooked and I felt fine.