Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[3DStudent]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I haven't posted anything significant in a while, but I'll start with the most important, being the Ketogenic diet. I didn't follow the thread in the beginning, so I missed the experiments by a month. So I started the last full week of September, which makes it four months for me.

I've read all of the main articles, and most of the linked pages. I'm just a few pages behind now. I didn't start keto, IF, and resistance exercise until I was a few tens of pages into the thread. I shoot for the 3:1 to 4:1 ratio of fat to protein. I go for the .8 g/kg body weight of protein, although I think I get more (will explain below) . I eat ground beef or pork for my protein, sometimes sardines. Occasionally chicken or beef liver. I'm under 10 carbs counting tea and supplements, probably about 5 usually. If I put xylitol in my tea that really adds up at 4g per tsp. I put some herbs on my food occasionally and that's probably the bulk of the carbs, in addition to the few from liver. I've tried nuts and eggs as well. I'm a little sensitive to both.

I take Vitamin C, kelp, Magnesium, Potassium, cod liver oil, and salt my food/water. I also take Vitamin D, B-6, and green tea because I've had what I think are kidney stone attacks. I get a sharp pain for 10-20 seconds in my right groin area just below the pelvic bone, or in my bladder. I take apple cider vinegar and lemon juice when I get a pain. Though I've never seen any blood or stones come out.

And of course I do bone broth as well. Marrow bones from lamb or beef, and I didn't really like oxtail. It had a lot of this bad tasting and unpleasant textured brown stuff. Sometimes my pressure cooker (I cook it for 3 hours on low after the initial boil) will start foaming and spilling the contents everywhere through the outlet where the steam comes out. I've tried soaking the bones the night before, and it seems to work, but it still foamed over when I did it once. So I just deal with it, and it's happened up to three times per broth batch.

I do resistance exercise usually three times per week, sometimes two. I think I might try going to two times, to get more rest. Because I have been pretty fatigued. In fact, I'm quite disappointed in my exercise experience. I do 20-30 minutes total with the 1 minute of exercise followed by two minutes off. And in four months I haven't been able to add more weights! Sometimes I have actually went a little lower in weights because I was fatigued that day and didn't have the strength. Maybe I'm just not one who builds muscle, I don't know? I do sometimes feel energized after working out, but lately it seems I just get a headache afterward. I'm stuck at around 40-50 pounds of weights, so 20-25 pounds because the machines use both arms. I've skipped doing the leg machines because I have something going with my left shin that makes it hurt when I stand or exert pressure on it for a prolonged period of time.

I do my intermittent fasting on Tuesdays. Basically I just skip lunch, and this makes for a 12 hour fast. I don't stress for food or anything during the day. But dinner seems to be a little more appreciated after the half day.

So that's my description, now onto some hang ups. I'll make another thread for the shin pain. I want to say the "kidney stone" problem is minor and resolved, but I actually had a pain about an hour and a half ago. So I drank some ACV and lemon in water. I mentioned my less than desirable results with the exercise, including fatigue and no increase in weight lifting ability.

But for the broth, I really don't know how to calculate the protein. I eat about 250-300 grams of broth for dinner. Some sources online say it is 10% protein, which would make my meal 25-30 grams. I put some beef or pork, and some marrow into the mug I eat it in. So this is why I thought maybe I was getting too much protein. I was eating 24 grams for breakfast and lunch, making 48, and my target for .8 g/kg is 53 grams. So that left only 5 grams for dinner. I'm now doing 20 grams protein for the first two meals, leaving 13 grams for dinner. I'm hoping my medium sized mug of broth is more like 5% protein, which would make it less than 15 grams of protein. I guess I add about three quarts of water and four pounds of bones (two pounds are from the previous week).

I also note that I've had a little more acne, especially on my face. It seems I was pretty clear skinned before. Not sure if I should increase carbs or lower them. I've done zero carbs, or close to, because the supplements have a little. Or in other words, just salting my food and no spices. And that was for a week or two, no problems that I recall.

So with the fatigue in exercising and the broth issue, I decreased my protein and broth amount. This made me more fatigued when working out, so I tried to eat more protein. That didn't work either, so I am just shooting for .8 g/kg, even with the uncertainty of the broth protein.

Another hang up is the liver pate. When I made it, I always got diarrhea. I did it close to the recipe that was posted. And I carefully measured the protein and fat, so I don't know why I had such loose stools. I know the simple answer is just add less fat. But since then I've just fried the liver and cut it into little bits when I make it. Then I just add about 55g of fat when I eat it. And a question I have is: do we need to be eating liver? Because I haven't made it every week. Just a few weeks actually. And I would think that without taking a multi-vitamin that the organ meat would be the main source of the vitamins, rather than whatever is in just ground meat and bone broth.

I think that's everything I wanted to cover. Sorry for the long post.

 

[Carl]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

That's pretty unfortunate 3D Student. As you said you're aiming for a 4:1 ratio, where do you get the majority of your fat from? You mentioned eating mainly ground beef/pork, do you add extra fat to your meals in the form of lard/butter?

You could also try cutting out the xylitol entirely for a few weeks, maybe you're sensitive to it or it's interfering with ketosis.

I got this idea from one article that I found online:
http://primalbodybuilding.wordpress.com/2010/05/06/xylitol-and-the-primal-bodybuilder

While it may help with dental caries, Xylitol has been proven to Halt Gluconeogenesis and Ketosis (Full Study .pdf). In this study, it was shown that when xylitol levels were raised, not only were Free Fatty Acids lowered but Gluconeogenesis and Ketosis were stopped.

Last but not least, while the GI of xylitol is only 13, we know that the smell and taste of sweet things can raise insulin production all by itself. Since it is usually used in fairly low-calorie snacks, the anticipatory nature of insulin could cause a spike greater than necessary based on the snack’s eventual blood glucose effect, causing hypoglycemia (crappy to have before/during a workout). And since it turned off ketosis, you are looking at a much greater perceived swing in blood sugar, possible haziness and impairment of your ability to rock out in the gym.

I don't know how valid this claim is yet, and I'm trying to read this study but it might as well be in Chinese. Just thought I'd put it out there for any members with more biological knowledge, sorry if this turns out to be noise.

 

[aragorn]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

monotonic,

First, I would like to remark that writing most of your post as a single paragraph made it very difficult to read while bouncing along in a bus. Please use more paragraphs, not for your sake but for ours.

Having noticed this tendency in myself, I just wanted to say that my recent take (and what I try to apply) on this is that it's more respectful to consider answering someones post, after you've had the time and opportunity to read it carefully (I try to read them at least twice). I know, you can often feel like 'there's no time' and 'I need to read/post this now'. But, at least for me, every time I've read and then posted something 'on the fly', I've missed some angle or perspective. Could be worth considering.

Next, I have limited time to write but I need to address the "blueberry" issue from one side only (there is yet another set of reasons not to eat them). Unless you have an allergy to them, I think it is highly unlikely that there will be any dire consequences arising from eating a few. You need to realize, however, that the GI symptoms you are experiencing may stem from microorganism overgrowth, and that the fructose (as small an amount as it may be) can make things worse and that the prebiotics in the blueberry skins can also contribute to the problem.

Again, seeing this in myself from time to time, I'm curious, where does this feeling of you having such a hurry answering come from? In my case, I know that this comes from feelings of self importance. Like if someone asks something about singing technique, I can get compelled to answer right away because "they need my expertice" - which is just a lie I tell myself. In your case there's obviously a lot of expertice, I'm just saying that maybe you sometimes should slow down a bit? :)

 

[LQB]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

On the subject of fermenting meats from: _http://paleohacks.com/questions/11937/would-you-eat-fermented-meat#axzz2K7cDzhxD -
A quote from Adventures in Diet (Part 1), Harper's Monthly Magazine, November 1935, By Vilhjalmur Stefansson

After some three months as a guest of the Eskimos I had acquired most of their food tastes. I had to agree that fish is better boiled than cooked any other way, and that the heads (which we occasionally shared with the children) were the best part of the fish. I no longer desired variety in the cooking, such as occasional baking - I preferred it always boils if it was cooked. I had become as fond of raw fish as if I had been a Japanese. I like fermented (therefore slightly acid) whale oil with my fish as well as ever I liked mixed vinegar and olive oil with a salad. But I still had two reservations against Eskimo practice; I did not eat rotten fish and I longed for salt with my meals.

There were several grades of decayed fish. The August catch had been protected by longs from animals but not from heat and was outright rotten. The September catch was mildly decayed. The October and later catches had been frozen immediately and were fresh. There was less of the August fish than of any other and, for that reason among the rest, it was a delicacy - eaten sometimes as a snack between meals, sometimes as a kind of dessert and always frozen, raw.

In midwinter it occurred to me to philosophize that in our own and foreign lands taste for a mild cheese is somewhat plebeian; it is at least a semi-truth that connoisseurs like their cheeses progressively stronger. The grading applies to meats, as in England where it is common among nobility and gentry to like game and pheasant so high that the average Midwestern American or even Englishman of a lower class, would call them rotten.

I knew of course that, while it is good form to eat decayed milk products and decayed game, it is very bad form to eat decayed fish. I knew also that the view of our populace that there are likely to be "ptomaines" in decaying fish and in the plebeian meats; but it struck me as an improbable extension of the class-consciousness that ptomaines would avoid the gentleman's food and attack that of a commoner.

These thoughts led to a summarizing query; If it is almost a mark of social distinction to be able to eat strong cheeses with a straight face and smelly birds with relish, why is it necessarily a low taste to be fond of decaying fish? On that basis of philosophy, though with several qualms, I tried the rotten fish one day, and if memory servers, like it better than my first taste of Camembert. During the next weeks I became fond of rotten fish.

And this from the same page:

Self-proclaimed nutritionist Aajonus Vonderplanitz eats what he refers to as a "high" meat diet. "High" meat refers to meat that is well past its sell by date (i.e. rotten). Vonderplanitz claims that "high" meat inspires a natural high. Also favoured are rancid unpasteurized yoghurt and fermented vegetables.

Vonderplanitz recommends that those following his diet should start with fresh raw meat. One follower says that it took him a while to eat the "high" meat because "it stinks like hell and it tastes like an aged raw cheese." He says he had diarrhoea after the first experience but now he is used to it and regrets not having done it sooner as it has cleared up all of his health problems

So, fermented "high" meats may be another option for populating the gut with good bacteria. Probably best if all members of the household participate in this. :/

 

[Hesper]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Another hang up is the liver pate. When I made it, I always got diarrhea. I did it close to the recipe that was posted. And I carefully measured the protein and fat, so I don't know why I had such loose stools. I know the simple answer is just add less fat. But since then I've just fried the liver and cut it into little bits when I make it. Then I just add about 55g of fat when I eat it. And a question I have is: do we need to be eating liver? Because I haven't made it every week. Just a few weeks actually. And I would think that without taking a multi-vitamin that the organ meat would be the main source of the vitamins, rather than whatever is in just ground meat and bone broth.

According to WebMD diarrhea can be caused malabsorption of nutrients in the diet. Since liver is so high in Vitamin A, and Vitamin A can be lethal in high amounts, I'm wondering if this could be causing the diarrhea.

I want to say the "kidney stone" problem is minor and resolved, but I actually had a pain about an hour and a half ago. So I drank some ACV and lemon in water. I mentioned my less than desirable results with the exercise, including fatigue and no increase in weight lifting ability.

The location of my kidney stone pain has been right at the center of my lower back, beginning like "nature was calling" but feeling very constipated. That sounds somewhat different from your description, so I'm thinking it might be a good idea to rule things out with a doctor.

As for the resistance exercises, I didn't notice a lot of increase in weight lifting ability over the 6 weeks except in the leg area. There was a lot of fatigue for me too, and as Laura pointed out this could be due to the upregulation of the wild mitochondrial DNA. But what Carlisle points out could also be the case. Have you been able to do any bloodwork that shows how high your ketone count is?

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

That's pretty unfortunate 3D Student. As you said you're aiming for a 4:1 ratio, where do you get the majority of your fat from? You mentioned eating mainly ground beef/pork, do you add extra fat to your meals in the form of lard/butter?

You could also try cutting out the xylitol entirely for a few weeks, maybe you're sensitive to it or it's interfering with ketosis.

I got this idea from one article that I found online:
http://primalbodybuilding.wordpress.com/2010/05/06/xylitol-and-the-primal-bodybuilder

While it may help with dental caries, Xylitol has been proven to Halt Gluconeogenesis and Ketosis (Full Study .pdf). In this study, it was shown that when xylitol levels were raised, not only were Free Fatty Acids lowered but Gluconeogenesis and Ketosis were stopped.

Last but not least, while the GI of xylitol is only 13, we know that the smell and taste of sweet things can raise insulin production all by itself. Since it is usually used in fairly low-calorie snacks, the anticipatory nature of insulin could cause a spike greater than necessary based on the snack’s eventual blood glucose effect, causing hypoglycemia (crappy to have before/during a workout). And since it turned off ketosis, you are looking at a much greater perceived swing in blood sugar, possible haziness and impairment of your ability to rock out in the gym.

I don't know how valid this claim is yet, and I'm trying to read this study but it might as well be in Chinese. Just thought I'd put it out there for any members with more biological knowledge, sorry if this turns out to be noise.

I had to laugh when I saw the reference to "xylitol levels" -- what on earth is that??? So my suspicions about the directly-linked article were raised immediately. I looked through the abstract and experimental design sections of the paper cited and noticed that the experiment was performed on mice that had not been fed for over a day. There was no mention at all that I could see of what they had been fed prior to fasting, but it would be reasonable to assume the usual "crap in a bag" prepared lab rat feed (i.e. they were not keto-adapted), and that they might not be feeling well after a day-long fast.

I would say that that this information is something to keep in mind, but if xylitol really does disrupt gluconeogenesis and ketogenesis in keto-adapted humans eating an nutrient-dense extremely low carb diet -- something the experiment did not address -- we should be able to observe the effects ourselves.

 

[LQB]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Here is an interesting 100-pager pdf on fermented meat production from OSU (early '90s) that goes through all the bacteria involved, starter cultures, safety, taste, aroma, meats, additives, pH, pathogens, etc. This looks like a much safer way to go. :)

https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/1811/45275/Fermented%20product%20Knowledge%20bank.pdf?sequence=1

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Here is an interesting 100-pager pdf on fermented meat production from OSU (early '90s) that goes through all the bacteria involved, starter cultures, safety, taste, aroma, meats, additives, pH, pathogens, etc. This looks like a much safer way to go. :)

https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/1811/45275/Fermented%20product%20Knowledge%20bank.pdf?sequence=1

You might consider putting this information in the Fermented Foods topic. I find this very interesting, but it might get buried here in KD.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...I don't know how valid this claim is yet, and I'm trying to read this study but it might as well be in Chinese. Just thought I'd put it out there for any members with more biological knowledge, sorry if this turns out to be noise.

Something else I totally overlooked is that xylitol is toxic to many species of mammals, including mice! The LD50 for mice is >20g/kg. I don't know that we have an LD50 (Lethal Dose 50%) for humans, given the ethical implications for obtaining it, but human tolerance is much, much higher (130 g/kg might give you diarrhea).

Presumably, the researchers knew this and it was part of what they were trying to understand. But it might be a little difficult to draw conclusions about the effects of xylitol on humans, that have the ability to metabolize it, from looking at what happens when species that are unable to metabolize it are poisoned with it. Unfortunately, this may have been what the author that cited the research paper was trying to do, although now I would need to go back and re-read everything in a new light.

 

[dugdeep]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

3D Student, it sounds to me like you might actually be too low in protein. The fact that you're having issues with physical exercise is a red flag. If you don't get enough protein, your body will cannibalize muscle tissue for amino acids. This can lead to muscle wasting and losses in strength. Note that, because it's not a complete protein, you shouldn't count bone broth towards your total protein for the day. This might be why you're not hitting your proper levels. I'd try bumping up to 1g/kg for a couple of weeks and see how you feel.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

3D Student, it sounds to me like you might actually be too low in protein. The fact that you're having issues with physical exercise is a red flag. If you don't get enough protein, your body will cannibalize muscle tissue for amino acids. This can lead to muscle wasting and losses in strength. Note that, because it's not a complete protein, you shouldn't count bone broth towards your total protein for the day. This might be why you're not hitting your proper levels. I'd try bumping up to 1g/kg for a couple of weeks and see how you feel.

One thing that keeps impressing itself on me is that we are not doing a KD here that is equivalent to what others talk about when they discuss KD. We are taking the dietary glucose sources down to more or less zero, which means depending entirely on (de novo) gluconeogenesis. The primary substrate for gluconeogenesis being protein, it makes sense that we might need more protein than someone that is following a 50g/d KD, which would be typical of what the researchers have used.

I have repeatedly read about how "dangerous" what we are doing is presumed to be. I have found little objective evidence for such claims, but I can't help thinking about how dangerous we are told that "smoking" is. And of course smoking is dangerous if what your are smoking is radioactive, chemical-laden mass-market cigarrettes, or if your body just doesn't tolerate it.

I think we are very much on our own with this experiment, and while we can draw on existing research for ideas, we should be careful to take into account differences between what the researchers are doing and what we are doing. If you want to experiment with caloric restriction, don't forget that your protein requirements could be greater than those of other people and that if you miscalculate, your body tends to cannibalize itself.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

monotonic,

First, I would like to remark that writing most of your post as a single paragraph made it very difficult to read while bouncing along in a bus. Please use more paragraphs, not for your sake but for ours.

Having noticed this tendency in myself, I just wanted to say that my recent take (and what I try to apply) on this is that it's more respectful to consider answering someones post, after you've had the time and opportunity to read it carefully (I try to read them at least twice). I know, you can often feel like 'there's no time' and 'I need to read/post this now'. But, at least for me, every time I've read and then posted something 'on the fly', I've missed some angle or perspective. Could be worth considering.

Next, I have limited time to write but I need to address the "blueberry" issue from one side only (there is yet another set of reasons not to eat them). Unless you have an allergy to them, I think it is highly unlikely that there will be any dire consequences arising from eating a few. You need to realize, however, that the GI symptoms you are experiencing may stem from microorganism overgrowth, and that the fructose (as small an amount as it may be) can make things worse and that the prebiotics in the blueberry skins can also contribute to the problem.

Again, seeing this in myself from time to time, I'm curious, where does this feeling of you having such a hurry answering come from? In my case, I know that this comes from feelings of self importance. Like if someone asks something about singing technique, I can get compelled to answer right away because "they need my expertice" - which is just a lie I tell myself. In your case there's obviously a lot of expertice, I'm just saying that maybe you sometimes should slow down a bit? :)

Most of the time, when I am not on vacation, my reading and posting here in the forum is "opportunistic." I often grab some time in the morning, after eating, while "digesting," and before rushing off. Lacking that time, as I did yesterday, I sometimes review new messages while commuting to work, although ordinarily I would not attempt to reply. During the workday I often find myself in "hurry up and wait" situations where I have to wait for what I am working on to finish, and trying to switch to a different work task would be counterproductive. So I sometimes use those moments to check new messages and write quick posts. If I write a longer post under those circumstances, I tend to end up having to take work home with me to make up. If I didn't do things this way, there would only be limited opportunities to participate, as was the case in the past.

My "hurry" in this case was that I saw someone receiving replies that didn't in my mind correspond with the post. Monotonic and I have quite a few issues in common and I am sensitive to that, although I realize that we are not "the same" (for one thing we are 44 years apart in age). I simply wanted to offer a positive response to balance (not refute) the negative ones. While I couldn't read every word of the post, I did in fact accurately interpret it the first time. I know that monotonic has been participating in the KD topic from the beginning, and that he has been around long enough to have read the LWB topic as it was happening, so I wasn't concerned about him not having read either topic.

These gut issues can be very difficult to work out, and they are correlated to a considerable degree with the kinds of other issues that both monotonic and I have to deal with. A KD is the only approach I have found that even makes a difference in my total situation, and tweaking my diet to encourage the symbiotic bacteria is the only thing so far that has made a difference that I think might lead to a solution. So when I saw someone in a somewhat similar situation trying similar things, I thought that a little encouragement was in order. Maybe I didn't go about it the best way possible, but that was my intent.

 

[3DStudent]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

That's pretty unfortunate 3D Student. As you said you're aiming for a 4:1 ratio, where do you get the majority of your fat from? You mentioned eating mainly ground beef/pork, do you add extra fat to your meals in the form of lard/butter?

Sorry, I didn't really talk about fat in my original post. I get my fat from grass fed tallow and lard. I eat a little butter and olive oil too. I add about 55g of fat per meal.

You could also try cutting out the xylitol entirely for a few weeks, maybe you're sensitive to it or it's interfering with ketosis.

Actually, the first few months I didn't even use xylitol. I was using liquid stevia at the time. And the stevia gave me a bigger sugar craving high, so I cut it out. I'm not sure it's the xylitol. I added it back for the supposed gut benefits.

According to WebMD diarrhea can be caused malabsorption of nutrients in the diet. Since liver is so high in Vitamin A, and Vitamin A can be lethal in high amounts, I'm wondering if this could be causing the diarrhea.

Yeah, I was aware that liver is high in vitamin A. I've heard you shouldn't eat bear's liver for that reason. But I kind of got the impression that everyone was eating liver all the time or as a "go to" meal. Like I mentioned, I've only made it a few weeks out of my 4 months, and I'll have it for one meal each day over that week.

The location of my kidney stone pain has been right at the center of my lower back, beginning like "nature was calling" but feeling very constipated. That sounds somewhat different from your description, so I'm thinking it might be a good idea to rule things out with a doctor.

Yeah maybe if it gets worse I can tackle it next. I'm doing the "medical merry-go-round" thing for my leg pain at the moment. I like going to work so sick days annoy me :P.

As for the resistance exercises, I didn't notice a lot of increase in weight lifting ability over the 6 weeks except in the leg area. There was a lot of fatigue for me too, and as Laura pointed out this could be due to the upregulation of the wild mitochondrial DNA. But what Carlisle points out could also be the case. Have you been able to do any bloodwork that shows how high your ketone count is?

I actually got bloodwork done this week. And I bought a ketone/glucose meter, but I need to buy the strips for it. Five dollars is kind of expensive for one test. Anyone try this site, supposedly $2.50 if you buy 70 from here?

3D Student, it sounds to me like you might actually be too low in protein. The fact that you're having issues with physical exercise is a red flag. If you don't get enough protein, your body will cannibalize muscle tissue for amino acids. This can lead to muscle wasting and losses in strength. Note that, because it's not a complete protein, you shouldn't count bone broth towards your total protein for the day. This might be why you're not hitting your proper levels. I'd try bumping up to 1g/kg for a couple of weeks and see how you feel.

I think you might be right. When I would eat a can of sardines in the evening along with the broth, I would be quite full and thought I was overeating. But it was more satisfying. And if you don't count the broth protein, then I'm not meeting the daily requirement.

I find it hard to get the actual protein percent. Because I marinate the meat with salt, water, ACV, and olive oil. And then I cook it like that. When it's done I strain the meat and put the fat drippings in a bowl to solidify. So the meat is a little more concentrated in protein % without the fat. My last batch of three pounds / 1362g of ground pork made 160g of lard. The package doesn't say the lean to fat ratio.

But in any event, I'll shoot for 1 g/kg body weight and consider the broth to be negligible in protein. I felt better on just the Paleo diet and the difference there was that my dinner was an actual protein meal instead of just bone broth. I've been literally off balance when walking, and maybe that has been reflected in my digital food scale (balance), in that it needs more meat added to it.

Thanks for the replies.

 

[Foxx]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I actually got bloodwork done this week. And I bought a ketone/glucose meter, but I need to buy the strips for it. Five dollars is kind of expensive for one test. Anyone try this site, supposedly $2.50 if you buy 70 from here?

The cheapest I've seen (except for occasional deals on ebay, though I don't see any cheap ones right now except maybe for auctions that might end cheaply) is for Precision Xtra ketone testing strips here:

http://www.universaldrugstore.com/medications/Precision+Xtra+Ketones+Test+Strips/

They're $20 for 10 strips and allegedly have free shipping and no tax. I think the testing device is ~$20 on Amazon. I can't vouch for Universal Drugstore, since I bought my strips for cheap from a good deal on ebay.

 

[chaps23]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

sorry guys I might have missed somthing somewhere but can the urine test's do this for less? Or do they not measure ammount of ketones? I dont have mine handy because I'm at work but I thought they did? They cost bugger all in AUS 100 for $55 at chemist warehouse.