Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions
- Thread starter Laura
- Start date
mcb
The Living Force
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Chris Kresser made some comments in his blog about cast iron pans some time ago, which unleashed a storm of replies about how crappy Lodge is (that's what he named and what I have) and pointing to other, better made pans. If you want to know where to find a good one, check this out:
_http://chriskresser.com/the-best-and-worst-cookware-materials
Chris Kresser made some comments in his blog about cast iron pans some time ago, which unleashed a storm of replies about how crappy Lodge is (that's what he named and what I have) and pointing to other, better made pans. If you want to know where to find a good one, check this out:
_http://chriskresser.com/the-best-and-worst-cookware-materials
mcb
The Living Force
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Be very careful of "natural" products. I was using a pricey tea tree shampoo (not toothpaste) to which I developed a severe scalp allergy. It turns out they put WHEAT in it -- no wonder!!! I missed it in the labeling because it was mixed in with a bunch of other non-chemical ingredients. So read the labels very carefully.
There is a recent podcast at
_http://scdlifestyle.com/2012/12/toxic-food-and-skincare-products-with-freda-mooncotch
that discusses the problem. Your best bet is to make your own (and there is a topic for it somewhere on the forum, or maybe more than one). That is what I am going to have to do.
Don Diego said:
Be very careful of "natural" products. I was using a pricey tea tree shampoo (not toothpaste) to which I developed a severe scalp allergy. It turns out they put WHEAT in it -- no wonder!!! I missed it in the labeling because it was mixed in with a bunch of other non-chemical ingredients. So read the labels very carefully.
There is a recent podcast at
_http://scdlifestyle.com/2012/12/toxic-food-and-skincare-products-with-freda-mooncotch
that discusses the problem. Your best bet is to make your own (and there is a topic for it somewhere on the forum, or maybe more than one). That is what I am going to have to do.
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
About a month ago I started cooking my own food, which has given me almost complete control over my diet. As a result I lowered carbs, most of which were coming from veggies such as broccoli and green beans. Now I typically eat 75-100g of ground beef per meal with 50g of butter. I experienced what I thought at first was constipation and/or gut flora imbalance. Now I'm not sure. I know from previous experience it could take a week or more for a bowel movement, so I was patient until I started having pain in my abdomen and I became bloated. During this time I tried probiotics and added some Bubbies relish (live cultures) to each meal, and also some lemon afterwards in case it might be low stomach acid causing an upper GI infection or whatnot. I also tried milk thistle and digestive enzymes. It seemed that consuming fiber would increase the swelling; I tried some blueberries which seemed to produce a bit of gas and if anything, reduce swelling a bit. The bloating did not seem to be due to gas. I thought I may have a blocked colon or even some sort of ileus, causing the small intestine to expand so I did a saltwater flush and did not eat for a day. Not much happened, so I used epsom salts the next day which succeeded in causing a bowel movement. After this however my abdomen was still slightly swollen and over the next several days it gradually increased again, again giving a bulge to my lower belly. Yesterday a teaspoon of salt in a glass of water was enough to stimulate a full bowel movement in an hour, so I figured there is no blockage... The stools were very dark. There must be something more to this. Extra salt and potassium does not change anything. I've been paying more attention and researching abdomen symptoms. Most of the conditions associated with a swollen abdomen are also associated with pain which I don't have at this point. My lower abdomen came to it's normal size after the flush but it seems my upper abdomen is also slightly swollen, and this has not changed. I don't know whether it may be my pancreas or my liver. During this time my energy levels have been fine, even when not eating anything during the flush, so my GI tract still seems to be functional. The area below my ribcage seems slightly swollen, keeping me from filling the tops of my lungs fully, and there is tender pain when pressing on it, with less pressure than usually needed for the same sensation. I speculated at first that the change in abdominal feeling was due to a lack of carbs/fiber but I don't think so anymore.
I'm not sure what to think at this point. It seems that I could go on this way with salt water flushes as needed, but this seems it could be the beginning of a serious problem. I don't appear to have jaundice, and only before the first saltwater flush did I experience slight pains and nausea. Vitamin C does not seem to help and magnesium seems to help a little.
I had the thought that since my pan's seasoning is not doing well, I am probably getting more iron - but I don't think scraping a pan with a stainless steel spatula can loosen enough iron to cause any issue.
About a month ago I started cooking my own food, which has given me almost complete control over my diet. As a result I lowered carbs, most of which were coming from veggies such as broccoli and green beans. Now I typically eat 75-100g of ground beef per meal with 50g of butter. I experienced what I thought at first was constipation and/or gut flora imbalance. Now I'm not sure. I know from previous experience it could take a week or more for a bowel movement, so I was patient until I started having pain in my abdomen and I became bloated. During this time I tried probiotics and added some Bubbies relish (live cultures) to each meal, and also some lemon afterwards in case it might be low stomach acid causing an upper GI infection or whatnot. I also tried milk thistle and digestive enzymes. It seemed that consuming fiber would increase the swelling; I tried some blueberries which seemed to produce a bit of gas and if anything, reduce swelling a bit. The bloating did not seem to be due to gas. I thought I may have a blocked colon or even some sort of ileus, causing the small intestine to expand so I did a saltwater flush and did not eat for a day. Not much happened, so I used epsom salts the next day which succeeded in causing a bowel movement. After this however my abdomen was still slightly swollen and over the next several days it gradually increased again, again giving a bulge to my lower belly. Yesterday a teaspoon of salt in a glass of water was enough to stimulate a full bowel movement in an hour, so I figured there is no blockage... The stools were very dark. There must be something more to this. Extra salt and potassium does not change anything. I've been paying more attention and researching abdomen symptoms. Most of the conditions associated with a swollen abdomen are also associated with pain which I don't have at this point. My lower abdomen came to it's normal size after the flush but it seems my upper abdomen is also slightly swollen, and this has not changed. I don't know whether it may be my pancreas or my liver. During this time my energy levels have been fine, even when not eating anything during the flush, so my GI tract still seems to be functional. The area below my ribcage seems slightly swollen, keeping me from filling the tops of my lungs fully, and there is tender pain when pressing on it, with less pressure than usually needed for the same sensation. I speculated at first that the change in abdominal feeling was due to a lack of carbs/fiber but I don't think so anymore.
I'm not sure what to think at this point. It seems that I could go on this way with salt water flushes as needed, but this seems it could be the beginning of a serious problem. I don't appear to have jaundice, and only before the first saltwater flush did I experience slight pains and nausea. Vitamin C does not seem to help and magnesium seems to help a little.
I had the thought that since my pan's seasoning is not doing well, I am probably getting more iron - but I don't think scraping a pan with a stainless steel spatula can loosen enough iron to cause any issue.
P
Peter_in_Thailand
Guest
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
... Thank you, Mono, for posting about this.
Similar for me.
Started doing my own cooking about 8 months ago, specifically to get more control over my food.
... I haven't explored all the possibilities that Mono reported above, but I've tried some, including probiotics.
Since changing to low-carb/paleo/keto diet 8 months ago, I've lost fat in arms, shoulders, upper back and legs, but the bloated belly is still with me.
What else to try?
-- Peter
Bangkok
monotonic said:
... Thank you, Mono, for posting about this.
Similar for me.
Started doing my own cooking about 8 months ago, specifically to get more control over my food.
... I haven't explored all the possibilities that Mono reported above, but I've tried some, including probiotics.
Since changing to low-carb/paleo/keto diet 8 months ago, I've lost fat in arms, shoulders, upper back and legs, but the bloated belly is still with me.
What else to try?
-- Peter
Bangkok
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Blueberries and other foods you are eating are really not part of the ketogenic diet, but rather of the diet described more in "Life Without Bread" thread. Your experience is something that has been discussed in there as well. From the issues you are reporting, you will probably benefit in adding apple cider vinegar, digestive enzymes and hydrochloric acid supplementation to your meals. I think you will benefit enormously by reviewing LWB in its entirety now that you have been experimenting, as several other members discussed and researched about these problems there. One month is really not enough to jump into ketosis, especially if you are first cutting down on carbs.
monotonic said:
Blueberries and other foods you are eating are really not part of the ketogenic diet, but rather of the diet described more in "Life Without Bread" thread. Your experience is something that has been discussed in there as well. From the issues you are reporting, you will probably benefit in adding apple cider vinegar, digestive enzymes and hydrochloric acid supplementation to your meals. I think you will benefit enormously by reviewing LWB in its entirety now that you have been experimenting, as several other members discussed and researched about these problems there. One month is really not enough to jump into ketosis, especially if you are first cutting down on carbs.
P
Peter_in_Thailand
Guest
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
... Thank you, Psyche, for valuable guidance.
... So, now must start chewing on the massive LWB thread.
-- Peter
Bangkok
Psyche said:
... Thank you, Psyche, for valuable guidance.
... So, now must start chewing on the massive LWB thread.
-- Peter
Bangkok
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Megan, considering that you haven't read Monotonic's entire post, it would be prudent to not advise Monotonic that they 'might be on the right track' until you are able to do so. And, as Laura advised, Monotonic will benefit most if the entire thread is read.Megan said:
mcb
The Living Force
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
monotonic,
First, I would like to remark that writing most of your post as a single paragraph made it very difficult to read while bouncing along in a bus. Please use more paragraphs, not for your sake but for ours.
Next, I have limited time to write but I need to address the "blueberry" issue from one side only (there is yet another set of reasons not to eat them). Unless you have an allergy to them, I think it is highly unlikely that there will be any dire consequences arising from eating a few. You need to realize, however, that the GI symptoms you are experiencing may stem from microorganism overgrowth, and that the fructose (as small an amount as it may be) can make things worse and that the prebiotics in the blueberry skins can also contribute to the problem.
I don't know what is going on in your gut, and you may have to work a lot of it out yourself, supported with suggestions from the rest of us, but it sounds awfully similar to things that were going on in my gut not so long ago. You have to be careful not to make associations ("I did this and then that happened") and then treat them as causal without proof. You need also, I think, not to worry yourself with explanations that are only remotely possible at best, while there are other more likely explanations to consider first.
One thing I have learned is that if you have a lot of fermentation going on then you may be able to control it by limiting -- not eliminating -- FODMAP foods. You might, for example, try just a few mushrooms along with perhaps a green leafy that isn't on any "bad" list if you can find one. My favorite has been chard (in a variety of colors).
This is something you may need to research and experiment with to find what your body wants. I use small amounts of onion, but I cut that out when fermentation grows excessive. Onion is fairly potent, and may not work well at all for some people. Avocado is totally out for me. As I mentioned earlier, if the food has quite a few total carbs and also is high in fiber (as labeled), it may contain too many indigestible saccharides. You also need to watch out for food sensitivities, and introduce new plant foods very carefully, one at a time.
One more thing I have learned, that I don't believe I have mentioned, is that a certain amount of GI discomfort may simply be expected, and not something that you need to counteract. If your gut balance is off, you are going to feel it until it is corrected. If that takes several years, you may feel a bit uncomfortable for several years.
When it goes from gas to persistent pain, however, you may need to do something UNLESS the pain is merely due to trapped gas, in which case you may simply need to pass the gas. I have found that I can relieve persistent gas pain by lying first on my right side until whatever is going to pass has passed, and then rolling over to my left side and doing the same. Starting on the left side, for me anyway, can be extremely painful in that situation, so I always start on the right.
Mild pain not due to gas may be due to mild constipation. In that case, you might just need to wait a bit. If you experience a major overgrowth of some sort, there may be some pain in the aftermath. For me, the solution there too is to simply wait for it to go away.
I have experimented in the past with eating starch to help control the symptoms. There are two problems with that. First, it is heading in the wrong direction with respect to ketones. Second, there are no "safe" starches, no matter what anyone says. I used sweet potatoes, but even Mr. Safe Starch himself, Paul Jaminet, doesn't recommend that with a ketogenic diet due to the high fructose content! He recommends potatoes and white rice, which I find totally unacceptable. So I don't recommend increasing carb intake with starch unless you just have to, and I don't know what foods you would use to do that.
There seems to be layer after layer of misunderstanding out there about the need for "fiber" in the human gut. Normally I would recommend reading the book Fiber Menace, but in your case you might start worrying about having end stage inflammatory bowel disease, which you probably do not have, so maybe you could put that off for a little while until you have the critters settled down.
The bottom line, from what I have been reading and experimenting with, is that the bacteria in our guts need "indigestible saccharides" -- A.K.A. FODMAPs, A.K.A. "fiber" -- which they use to survive and to produce, for us, butyrate, vitamins, and probably a bunch of things we don't even know about yet. If they are healthy, your symbiotic gut bacteria may also be able to fight off pathogenic bacteria.
The notion that our guts need "bulk" is bunk, from what I can tell, and the above-mentioned book explains why you do NOT want to stuff yourself with that (literal) crap. You are, presumably, not eating grains now so you are protected at least from highly abrasive bran, but you'd be surprised how much bulk you can produce from a smattering of veggies, and you do need to go easy on the stuff. It's the indigestible (to you) starches and sugars that you need -- bacteria foods -- not the bulkiness.
The absurd notion of needing bulk, and of needing abrasive bran, has pathological roots that you can read about if you wish too. Kellog is one place to start (the person -- one of the Kellog brothers -- not the brand name). He was a mess -- not mentally together -- and he apparently felt driven to share his self-inflicted misery with others, which he did very successfully.
I have to go now, but I will continue to monitor this topic if I can.
monotonic said:
monotonic,
First, I would like to remark that writing most of your post as a single paragraph made it very difficult to read while bouncing along in a bus. Please use more paragraphs, not for your sake but for ours.
Next, I have limited time to write but I need to address the "blueberry" issue from one side only (there is yet another set of reasons not to eat them). Unless you have an allergy to them, I think it is highly unlikely that there will be any dire consequences arising from eating a few. You need to realize, however, that the GI symptoms you are experiencing may stem from microorganism overgrowth, and that the fructose (as small an amount as it may be) can make things worse and that the prebiotics in the blueberry skins can also contribute to the problem.
I don't know what is going on in your gut, and you may have to work a lot of it out yourself, supported with suggestions from the rest of us, but it sounds awfully similar to things that were going on in my gut not so long ago. You have to be careful not to make associations ("I did this and then that happened") and then treat them as causal without proof. You need also, I think, not to worry yourself with explanations that are only remotely possible at best, while there are other more likely explanations to consider first.
One thing I have learned is that if you have a lot of fermentation going on then you may be able to control it by limiting -- not eliminating -- FODMAP foods. You might, for example, try just a few mushrooms along with perhaps a green leafy that isn't on any "bad" list if you can find one. My favorite has been chard (in a variety of colors).
This is something you may need to research and experiment with to find what your body wants. I use small amounts of onion, but I cut that out when fermentation grows excessive. Onion is fairly potent, and may not work well at all for some people. Avocado is totally out for me. As I mentioned earlier, if the food has quite a few total carbs and also is high in fiber (as labeled), it may contain too many indigestible saccharides. You also need to watch out for food sensitivities, and introduce new plant foods very carefully, one at a time.
One more thing I have learned, that I don't believe I have mentioned, is that a certain amount of GI discomfort may simply be expected, and not something that you need to counteract. If your gut balance is off, you are going to feel it until it is corrected. If that takes several years, you may feel a bit uncomfortable for several years.
When it goes from gas to persistent pain, however, you may need to do something UNLESS the pain is merely due to trapped gas, in which case you may simply need to pass the gas. I have found that I can relieve persistent gas pain by lying first on my right side until whatever is going to pass has passed, and then rolling over to my left side and doing the same. Starting on the left side, for me anyway, can be extremely painful in that situation, so I always start on the right.
Mild pain not due to gas may be due to mild constipation. In that case, you might just need to wait a bit. If you experience a major overgrowth of some sort, there may be some pain in the aftermath. For me, the solution there too is to simply wait for it to go away.
I have experimented in the past with eating starch to help control the symptoms. There are two problems with that. First, it is heading in the wrong direction with respect to ketones. Second, there are no "safe" starches, no matter what anyone says. I used sweet potatoes, but even Mr. Safe Starch himself, Paul Jaminet, doesn't recommend that with a ketogenic diet due to the high fructose content! He recommends potatoes and white rice, which I find totally unacceptable. So I don't recommend increasing carb intake with starch unless you just have to, and I don't know what foods you would use to do that.
There seems to be layer after layer of misunderstanding out there about the need for "fiber" in the human gut. Normally I would recommend reading the book Fiber Menace, but in your case you might start worrying about having end stage inflammatory bowel disease, which you probably do not have, so maybe you could put that off for a little while until you have the critters settled down.
The bottom line, from what I have been reading and experimenting with, is that the bacteria in our guts need "indigestible saccharides" -- A.K.A. FODMAPs, A.K.A. "fiber" -- which they use to survive and to produce, for us, butyrate, vitamins, and probably a bunch of things we don't even know about yet. If they are healthy, your symbiotic gut bacteria may also be able to fight off pathogenic bacteria.
The notion that our guts need "bulk" is bunk, from what I can tell, and the above-mentioned book explains why you do NOT want to stuff yourself with that (literal) crap. You are, presumably, not eating grains now so you are protected at least from highly abrasive bran, but you'd be surprised how much bulk you can produce from a smattering of veggies, and you do need to go easy on the stuff. It's the indigestible (to you) starches and sugars that you need -- bacteria foods -- not the bulkiness.
The absurd notion of needing bulk, and of needing abrasive bran, has pathological roots that you can read about if you wish too. Kellog is one place to start (the person -- one of the Kellog brothers -- not the brand name). He was a mess -- not mentally together -- and he apparently felt driven to share his self-inflicted misery with others, which he did very successfully.
I have to go now, but I will continue to monitor this topic if I can.
beetlemaniac
The Living Force
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
How is the sauerkraut experiment coming along? My sauerkraut is in the process of fermenting. I think the stuff could be pretty potent for digestive issues. I tried a little taste yesterday and it seemed to be coming along fine at the 3rd day. I can't be sure but I think it has relieved my constipation, just that little bit I had to taste. I had a bowel movement this morning, without any magnesium on the previous night, so that is saying something.
How is the sauerkraut experiment coming along? My sauerkraut is in the process of fermenting. I think the stuff could be pretty potent for digestive issues. I tried a little taste yesterday and it seemed to be coming along fine at the 3rd day. I can't be sure but I think it has relieved my constipation, just that little bit I had to taste. I had a bowel movement this morning, without any magnesium on the previous night, so that is saying something.
mcb
The Living Force
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
It is going well for me -- some ups and downs as usual, but generally better than before. I haven't started doing my own fermentation yet, but after realizing that fermentation could actually be a complement to cooking, a way to prepare foods without heating, so that more nutrients are preserved, I have decided to explore it more fully. Of course the idea will be to continue to keep the carb count very low, something that the fermentation process itself should help with.
beetlemaniac said:
It is going well for me -- some ups and downs as usual, but generally better than before. I haven't started doing my own fermentation yet, but after realizing that fermentation could actually be a complement to cooking, a way to prepare foods without heating, so that more nutrients are preserved, I have decided to explore it more fully. Of course the idea will be to continue to keep the carb count very low, something that the fermentation process itself should help with.
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
My first experience with sauerkraut was similar. However I would wait at least a week before testing any ferment, to avoid introducing mold before it has gotten off the ground. 4-week sauerkraut has fermented long enough that it is acidic and you can leave it on the counter until it's used up - after all fermentation was the original method for preserving food. But it needs all that time to ferment. Also, the longer ferment has much more probiotic content.
Thanks for the advice.
My first experience with sauerkraut was similar. However I would wait at least a week before testing any ferment, to avoid introducing mold before it has gotten off the ground. 4-week sauerkraut has fermented long enough that it is acidic and you can leave it on the counter until it's used up - after all fermentation was the original method for preserving food. But it needs all that time to ferment. Also, the longer ferment has much more probiotic content.
Thanks for the advice.
