Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions
- Thread starter Laura
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mcb
The Living Force
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
[rant]
I am not easily shocked these days by ordinary things, but when I walked into a drug store this morning and, among other things, shopped for a glucose meter for my housemate and found the one that I bought from Amazon for ten bucks being sold for over $70, I was shocked. (They told me "insurance pays most of it." Yep, that's health care in a nutshell in the US of A. Max profit.)
I commented that insurance doesn't generally cover preventive measures (such as what I use it for) and the guy at the pharmacy window seemed to have trouble wrapping his mind around that. Preventive? What's that?
But then I asked for a box of replacement test strip drums and they wanted $70+ for that too, which is more than $20 over the list price! So I am ordering from Amazon, at only a couple of dollars more than the last time.
[/rant]
My housemate is showing interest in therapeutic ketogenic diet (not necessarily the exact version we are trying here), and I wanted her to start monitoring her blood glucose first, to just be aware of it, but especially because elevated glucose can lower ketone levels. She has had medically significant problems with blood sugar, and of course you aren't told that you can monitor it yourself and act on your own behalf to prevent disease progression. Instead the doctors wait around until you are diabetic and then "treat" you (while everybody treats themselves to the profits -- see above). She understands that, but old habits can be hard to break, although she has already done quite well on Atkins and really just needs to cut out keto-killing snacks and such. I am thinking that actually seeing the glucose levels may help.
[rant]
I am not easily shocked these days by ordinary things, but when I walked into a drug store this morning and, among other things, shopped for a glucose meter for my housemate and found the one that I bought from Amazon for ten bucks being sold for over $70, I was shocked. (They told me "insurance pays most of it." Yep, that's health care in a nutshell in the US of A. Max profit.)
I commented that insurance doesn't generally cover preventive measures (such as what I use it for) and the guy at the pharmacy window seemed to have trouble wrapping his mind around that. Preventive? What's that?
But then I asked for a box of replacement test strip drums and they wanted $70+ for that too, which is more than $20 over the list price! So I am ordering from Amazon, at only a couple of dollars more than the last time.
[/rant]
My housemate is showing interest in therapeutic ketogenic diet (not necessarily the exact version we are trying here), and I wanted her to start monitoring her blood glucose first, to just be aware of it, but especially because elevated glucose can lower ketone levels. She has had medically significant problems with blood sugar, and of course you aren't told that you can monitor it yourself and act on your own behalf to prevent disease progression. Instead the doctors wait around until you are diabetic and then "treat" you (while everybody treats themselves to the profits -- see above). She understands that, but old habits can be hard to break, although she has already done quite well on Atkins and really just needs to cut out keto-killing snacks and such. I am thinking that actually seeing the glucose levels may help.
agni
Dagobah Resident
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
It would be nice to hear opinion about Kvass drink (which is pretty much fermented drinks, a la kombucha)
Do you folk think there is a consequence about drinking fermented beets kombucha ? I am little bit concerned about about sugar context in the drink. But benefits of the beets on blood, liver, detox properties and other things seems interesting.
The drink itself includes only raw beets and plain water. What do you think. Is it worth it ? Or is it a no no ?
It would be nice to hear opinion about Kvass drink (which is pretty much fermented drinks, a la kombucha)
Do you folk think there is a consequence about drinking fermented beets kombucha ? I am little bit concerned about about sugar context in the drink. But benefits of the beets on blood, liver, detox properties and other things seems interesting.
The drink itself includes only raw beets and plain water. What do you think. Is it worth it ? Or is it a no no ?
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
My opinion is that fermented foods generally help restore your gut flora - so in general they may be good, but as always depending on the quantity and quality and whether or not your particular body tolerates this particular food. Once they are fermented the sugar should be gone - maybe replaced by an alcohol (which acts like a sugar too).
Bottom line though is - give it a go, see what happens with your body and you should get a better idea if it's beneficial for you or not - in some cases you might have to try a few times - on it for a week or two , off it for four weeks etc - to be able to tell.
Hope that helps
agni said:
My opinion is that fermented foods generally help restore your gut flora - so in general they may be good, but as always depending on the quantity and quality and whether or not your particular body tolerates this particular food. Once they are fermented the sugar should be gone - maybe replaced by an alcohol (which acts like a sugar too).
Bottom line though is - give it a go, see what happens with your body and you should get a better idea if it's beneficial for you or not - in some cases you might have to try a few times - on it for a week or two , off it for four weeks etc - to be able to tell.
Hope that helps
mcb
The Living Force
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
My understanding at this point, based on my mental mashup of all the bloggers and podcasters that I follow, is that you might want to steer clear of regularly consuming fermented foods and drinks if you are working on healing your gut (a process that might take years). An alternative is to include low-carb "prebiotic" veggies that feed and encourage growth of symbiotic bacteria, rather than supplying them directly. That, however, comes with the qualification that too much prebiotic food can be a problem when you are healing.
If your gut is pretty healthy, you can tolerate all sorts of things. Whether they are healthy for you is a question of both testing to see how you do with them and researching to learn more about them. If you feel a need to regularly consume something, you might also want to look at your motivations for doing so. If it is a question of "why am I eating so much beef," I wouldn't worry about it -- "staples" appropriate to a KD are fine. If it is a "cultural" food it might be fine too, especially if you have the genes that go with that culture. But it doesn't hurt to take a look and ask a few questions of yourself.
My understanding at this point, based on my mental mashup of all the bloggers and podcasters that I follow, is that you might want to steer clear of regularly consuming fermented foods and drinks if you are working on healing your gut (a process that might take years). An alternative is to include low-carb "prebiotic" veggies that feed and encourage growth of symbiotic bacteria, rather than supplying them directly. That, however, comes with the qualification that too much prebiotic food can be a problem when you are healing.
If your gut is pretty healthy, you can tolerate all sorts of things. Whether they are healthy for you is a question of both testing to see how you do with them and researching to learn more about them. If you feel a need to regularly consume something, you might also want to look at your motivations for doing so. If it is a question of "why am I eating so much beef," I wouldn't worry about it -- "staples" appropriate to a KD are fine. If it is a "cultural" food it might be fine too, especially if you have the genes that go with that culture. But it doesn't hurt to take a look and ask a few questions of yourself.
beetlemaniac
The Living Force
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Many thanks for the article Psyche. I managed to read the whole thing, I think the tablespoon of lard I ate helped. This line caught my attention:
Seeing that my levels have only reached 3.6 mmol/l at maximum tells me I'm doing something wrong. I'm thinking that I'm slacking off on the fat again. I've been finding it difficult to concentrate on reading, and having somewhat excessive emotionality and panic attacks, although I'm not sure if the diet is the main cause. Anyway, I notice a difference and I want my ketogenic brain back! I blame myself for not actively measuring my fat intake. I'm upping my tablespoons of lard per day to 10-12, from something like 4-5 previously. Based on a 1800 calorie intake I should be at 180g fat, with protein at 48g, carbs 0.
I think I may be missing the butter that I used to eat because it tastes a lot better. It could also be that dastardly old anti-fat programming as Laura mentioned way back in the thread. The taste for lard definitely develops with continuous intake, however. If I'm not wrong it's got something to do with the upregulation of the CD36 receptor.
Many thanks for the article Psyche. I managed to read the whole thing, I think the tablespoon of lard I ate helped. This line caught my attention:
Seeing that my levels have only reached 3.6 mmol/l at maximum tells me I'm doing something wrong. I'm thinking that I'm slacking off on the fat again. I've been finding it difficult to concentrate on reading, and having somewhat excessive emotionality and panic attacks, although I'm not sure if the diet is the main cause. Anyway, I notice a difference and I want my ketogenic brain back! I blame myself for not actively measuring my fat intake. I'm upping my tablespoons of lard per day to 10-12, from something like 4-5 previously. Based on a 1800 calorie intake I should be at 180g fat, with protein at 48g, carbs 0.
I think I may be missing the butter that I used to eat because it tastes a lot better. It could also be that dastardly old anti-fat programming as Laura mentioned way back in the thread. The taste for lard definitely develops with continuous intake, however. If I'm not wrong it's got something to do with the upregulation of the CD36 receptor.
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Be sure to eat fatty meats such as pork belly and pork chops. However, bone broth is what really makes the difference and allows you to better regulate your fat/protein intake. If you don't eat it already I would recommend having it daily if possible.
That could very well be the case. When I first introduced lard into my diet I thought it had an odd taste and didn't really like the smell. Nowadays, I find it delicious and it doesn't smell at all. I also seem to tolerate lard better than tallow. In fact, when preparing broth with beef bones I always add some pork, tastes so much better.
beetlemaniac said:
Be sure to eat fatty meats such as pork belly and pork chops. However, bone broth is what really makes the difference and allows you to better regulate your fat/protein intake. If you don't eat it already I would recommend having it daily if possible.
beetlemaniac said:
That could very well be the case. When I first introduced lard into my diet I thought it had an odd taste and didn't really like the smell. Nowadays, I find it delicious and it doesn't smell at all. I also seem to tolerate lard better than tallow. In fact, when preparing broth with beef bones I always add some pork, tastes so much better.
beetlemaniac
The Living Force
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Hi Eboard10, I eat pork predominantly so fatty meat should be easy. I also buy fat from the butcher to make lard, with an added bonus of those crispy bits. A jar of bone broth is in the fridge right now and I will be having some for dinner, topped off with 3 tablespoons of lard. It's a bit difficult to get pure pork bones however, everything seems to come with lots of meat attached. The meat tends to make broth very watery. So I use pork trotters and tails, it gives a lot of gelatin to the broth.Eboard10 said:
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Looks like you're doing pretty well then. I can't get any pork bones or other parts like tails or feet from the butcher so what I tend to do is to throw in a cut of pork meat, take it out after a couple of hours and eat it with a bit of broth. Tastes delicious. :)
beetlemaniac said:
Looks like you're doing pretty well then. I can't get any pork bones or other parts like tails or feet from the butcher so what I tend to do is to throw in a cut of pork meat, take it out after a couple of hours and eat it with a bit of broth. Tastes delicious. :)
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Another possibility is that you are doing things right, but added stress (environmental?) during these times is making your gluconeogenesis pathways to produce more sugar via stress. Just a speculation. If you miss butter, I would add that though ;)
beetlemaniac said:
Another possibility is that you are doing things right, but added stress (environmental?) during these times is making your gluconeogenesis pathways to produce more sugar via stress. Just a speculation. If you miss butter, I would add that though ;)
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
I have had the same problem for quite a while and I tried almost everything, but just couldn't get the darned levels up above 2 - 3 mmol/l (I restricted carb levels to almost zero) - until I started to restrict protein. My hypothesis is that it is not so much the amount of fat you intake that determines the level of KBs (because we all have ample fat that the body can mine if needed - even very skinny chaps), but the amount of protein (given equal amounts of carbs). Probably the ease with which you divert amino acids into the gluconeogenesis cycle is individual, possibly a genetic trait. I seem to be very easily converting amino acids to sugar - and again my suspicion is that anyone with the tendency to obesity (I was obese most of my adult life) has this trait.
I know that some might dispute it - as described in earlier posts in this thread - but in my case it is the only explanation that makes sense. Now I weigh my protein ration - I eat 150g of fatty meat twice a day (I only eat lunch and dinner). And with that my BOHB levels are easily over 4 mmol/l. Of course there might also be other factors involved on top of that - stress as Psyche pointed out, but in my case it was protein overconsumption. It is not very easy to keep protein rations in check - your plate looks quite naked like that - bar the liquid fat that floats around the lonely piece of meat, dotted with the occasional green leaf - but if this is the way, so be it!
I have had the same problem for quite a while and I tried almost everything, but just couldn't get the darned levels up above 2 - 3 mmol/l (I restricted carb levels to almost zero) - until I started to restrict protein. My hypothesis is that it is not so much the amount of fat you intake that determines the level of KBs (because we all have ample fat that the body can mine if needed - even very skinny chaps), but the amount of protein (given equal amounts of carbs). Probably the ease with which you divert amino acids into the gluconeogenesis cycle is individual, possibly a genetic trait. I seem to be very easily converting amino acids to sugar - and again my suspicion is that anyone with the tendency to obesity (I was obese most of my adult life) has this trait.
I know that some might dispute it - as described in earlier posts in this thread - but in my case it is the only explanation that makes sense. Now I weigh my protein ration - I eat 150g of fatty meat twice a day (I only eat lunch and dinner). And with that my BOHB levels are easily over 4 mmol/l. Of course there might also be other factors involved on top of that - stress as Psyche pointed out, but in my case it was protein overconsumption. It is not very easy to keep protein rations in check - your plate looks quite naked like that - bar the liquid fat that floats around the lonely piece of meat, dotted with the occasional green leaf - but if this is the way, so be it!
beetlemaniac
The Living Force
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Thanks for the input, nicklebleu.
After my dinner (7:30pm) of bone broth and 3 tbsp lard - my ketones are at 4.4 mmol/l. I had some gut pains, flatulence and fatigue after having a tablespoon of lard around late afternoon. But at the same time I could instantly think more clearly. It's a wonder why my body just won't tell me when it needs fat! I notice my taste slowly shifting from fat-centric to protein- and carb-centric when I don't pay attention to my fat intake. I think I was probably overconsuming protein while not eating enough fat. Will have to test for eggs too. About using our fat stores, I think the dietary fat component (lard, for me) needs to be there for a while before the body recognizes that the fat stores themselves can be used as energy. Who knows, maybe the bone broth is doing something as well?
Psyche, the great thing about being in "true" ketosis (what I assume is >4mmol/l) is that I am able to modulate my stress response much more effectively! I will be diligently eating my lard from now on and see what happens. Butter is a no-go for me, at least right now :(. Gives me brain fog and cravings.
nicklebleu said:
Thanks for the input, nicklebleu.
After my dinner (7:30pm) of bone broth and 3 tbsp lard - my ketones are at 4.4 mmol/l. I had some gut pains, flatulence and fatigue after having a tablespoon of lard around late afternoon. But at the same time I could instantly think more clearly. It's a wonder why my body just won't tell me when it needs fat! I notice my taste slowly shifting from fat-centric to protein- and carb-centric when I don't pay attention to my fat intake. I think I was probably overconsuming protein while not eating enough fat. Will have to test for eggs too. About using our fat stores, I think the dietary fat component (lard, for me) needs to be there for a while before the body recognizes that the fat stores themselves can be used as energy. Who knows, maybe the bone broth is doing something as well?
Psyche said:
Psyche, the great thing about being in "true" ketosis (what I assume is >4mmol/l) is that I am able to modulate my stress response much more effectively! I will be diligently eating my lard from now on and see what happens. Butter is a no-go for me, at least right now :(. Gives me brain fog and cravings.
mcb
The Living Force
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
The statement you quoted from the article strikes me as odd, given the lower numbers being used for KD therapy and being reported by other researchers as effective. I would suggest caution with regard to trying to push levels higher when they don't seem to want to go there. 'Normal' ranges of ketone levels for any individual on a KD can vary widely, as we have seen here. If you do find a dietary tweak that brings your levels up, that's great because it contributes to our experiment here. The same tweak, however, might not have any effect for someone else.
My sense is (and has been) that a major factor in how high ketone levels go is the presence or absence of major metabolic disfunction. Doctors administering therapeutic KD are treating seriously ill patients, and researchers and even do-it-yourself experimenters (e.g. Jimmy Moore) are often interested in treating or reversing disease. If that is the case, some people may hit a hard wall in terms of maximum levels. That doesn't mean that they aren't in ketosis or that KD will not be beneficial for them.
Of course levels will vary throughout the day, and a single low reading doesn't mean much at all. And while I haven't tried it, I understand that it is easy to obtain high levels by fasting -- the body's starvation response can bring them quite high, though still below ketoacidosis levels. I remember the starvation range as 5-7, and above 7 as the ketoacidosis range (round numbers, because there are no "hard" thresholds).
I have the full text of the papers referenced in the above paper to support the 3.6 mmol/L claim and I will try to take a closer look sometime soon. I am quite curious to see where they came up with that number.
beetlemaniac said:
The statement you quoted from the article strikes me as odd, given the lower numbers being used for KD therapy and being reported by other researchers as effective. I would suggest caution with regard to trying to push levels higher when they don't seem to want to go there. 'Normal' ranges of ketone levels for any individual on a KD can vary widely, as we have seen here. If you do find a dietary tweak that brings your levels up, that's great because it contributes to our experiment here. The same tweak, however, might not have any effect for someone else.
My sense is (and has been) that a major factor in how high ketone levels go is the presence or absence of major metabolic disfunction. Doctors administering therapeutic KD are treating seriously ill patients, and researchers and even do-it-yourself experimenters (e.g. Jimmy Moore) are often interested in treating or reversing disease. If that is the case, some people may hit a hard wall in terms of maximum levels. That doesn't mean that they aren't in ketosis or that KD will not be beneficial for them.
Of course levels will vary throughout the day, and a single low reading doesn't mean much at all. And while I haven't tried it, I understand that it is easy to obtain high levels by fasting -- the body's starvation response can bring them quite high, though still below ketoacidosis levels. I remember the starvation range as 5-7, and above 7 as the ketoacidosis range (round numbers, because there are no "hard" thresholds).
I have the full text of the papers referenced in the above paper to support the 3.6 mmol/L claim and I will try to take a closer look sometime soon. I am quite curious to see where they came up with that number.
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Same here. I've noticed that the minute I eat more protein I get a headache as a result, so for me it causes some kind of an inflammation in my head, and it probably is also one of the reasons why I've been gaining weight... In the past though I was kinda skinny and I never really was able to gain weight, but after the dietary changes I can gain weight quite easily if I don't watch myself. Now I'm on a resistance training schedule (using my pink kettlebell :P) while trying to keep protein levels low, with enough fat to keep me going.
I've done a bit of experimenting with carbs, like having a tiny sweet potato, but my head just gets all cloudy and it's hard to concentrate after that. I also experimented with sauerkraut, but I didn't notice any improvement whatsoever in the long term. It seems that the best thing that works for me is what you wrote: lonely piece of meat with liquid fat floating around. I do wonder though what green leaf you eat? I wish I could have something vegginess that is yummy too and doesn't cause inflammation, just to have some kind of variation.
nicklebleu said:
Same here. I've noticed that the minute I eat more protein I get a headache as a result, so for me it causes some kind of an inflammation in my head, and it probably is also one of the reasons why I've been gaining weight... In the past though I was kinda skinny and I never really was able to gain weight, but after the dietary changes I can gain weight quite easily if I don't watch myself. Now I'm on a resistance training schedule (using my pink kettlebell :P) while trying to keep protein levels low, with enough fat to keep me going.
I've done a bit of experimenting with carbs, like having a tiny sweet potato, but my head just gets all cloudy and it's hard to concentrate after that. I also experimented with sauerkraut, but I didn't notice any improvement whatsoever in the long term. It seems that the best thing that works for me is what you wrote: lonely piece of meat with liquid fat floating around. I do wonder though what green leaf you eat? I wish I could have something vegginess that is yummy too and doesn't cause inflammation, just to have some kind of variation.
