Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions
- Thread starter Laura
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Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
I believe it is because egg white contains something which attaches to biotin (B Vitamin) and so is like an anti nutrient. And considering many are consuming 4 eggs daily with their fat bomb (which doesn't require egg whites) the idea is they would be consuming alot and open themselves up to problems.
Anthony, the sausage suggestion is because they are quick and easy and contain much of the desired ingredients - meat + fat, buit is up to you. Bacon is another. I like Mackerel - it's oily, not farmed and cheap and quick. I've had pate (organ meat & fat) with cucumber recently because the weather has been warm here. The other thing is, once you become comfortable and if you are using the fat bomb (the easiest way to get the fat into your diet - really), sometimes i have just had 2 fat bombs a day; a coffee one in the morning and a cocoa one in the evening.
edit: added link
Altair said:
I believe it is because egg white contains something which attaches to biotin (B Vitamin) and so is like an anti nutrient. And considering many are consuming 4 eggs daily with their fat bomb (which doesn't require egg whites) the idea is they would be consuming alot and open themselves up to problems.
Anthony, the sausage suggestion is because they are quick and easy and contain much of the desired ingredients - meat + fat, buit is up to you. Bacon is another. I like Mackerel - it's oily, not farmed and cheap and quick. I've had pate (organ meat & fat) with cucumber recently because the weather has been warm here. The other thing is, once you become comfortable and if you are using the fat bomb (the easiest way to get the fat into your diet - really), sometimes i have just had 2 fat bombs a day; a coffee one in the morning and a cocoa one in the evening.
edit: added link
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
If you want to make it easy, just buy some ground meat, like beef or pork and bake it. Then get a lot of fat, like tallow, lard, butter, or ghee and make sure you eat about twice the weight of fat as protein. Meats are about 25% protein so 100 grams is about what you want (look up the nutrition facts for the exact amount). So you'd ideally have eaten 25 grams of protein in that 100g of meat and 50 grams of added fat on top. That should give you a decent keto ratio.
That might be a lot of fat if you haven't worked up to it. Have on hand enzymes, ox bile, and/or betaine HCL. I'd also recommend a well sourced canned mackerel or sardines. No Gulf coast or Pacific ocean caught. They are an easy and quick snack.
I don't think the worries about the biotin need apply to fat bombs. The yolk is the supplier of biotin, where the white of egg is the inhibitor (weird eh?). Since you don't use the white, you actually get more biotin from eating the yolk. With a half recipe I use 12 yolks and get about 10 servings and eat two a day. So that's about 2.4 yolks a day.
FWIW. Good luck. :)
If you want to make it easy, just buy some ground meat, like beef or pork and bake it. Then get a lot of fat, like tallow, lard, butter, or ghee and make sure you eat about twice the weight of fat as protein. Meats are about 25% protein so 100 grams is about what you want (look up the nutrition facts for the exact amount). So you'd ideally have eaten 25 grams of protein in that 100g of meat and 50 grams of added fat on top. That should give you a decent keto ratio.
That might be a lot of fat if you haven't worked up to it. Have on hand enzymes, ox bile, and/or betaine HCL. I'd also recommend a well sourced canned mackerel or sardines. No Gulf coast or Pacific ocean caught. They are an easy and quick snack.
I don't think the worries about the biotin need apply to fat bombs. The yolk is the supplier of biotin, where the white of egg is the inhibitor (weird eh?). Since you don't use the white, you actually get more biotin from eating the yolk. With a half recipe I use 12 yolks and get about 10 servings and eat two a day. So that's about 2.4 yolks a day.
FWIW. Good luck. :)
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Butter as far as I know will always contain parts of milk (organic or not), unless you buy clarified butter (ghee) which contains only the fat. You would need to test it for yourself if you tolerate butter, some do, some do not :). And I'm also buying butter from the super market.
Anthony said:
Butter as far as I know will always contain parts of milk (organic or not), unless you buy clarified butter (ghee) which contains only the fat. You would need to test it for yourself if you tolerate butter, some do, some do not :). And I'm also buying butter from the super market.
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
The other day I found organic butter which was quite expensive, in a health food store BIO BIO (you have shop in Split) and sometimes you can find Irish butter Kerrygold in a supermarket LIDL. Here where I live I can get Bohnec's butter which seems slightly better than others from supermarkets.
Also you can make clarified butter (ghee) . You can find how to make it on youtube e.g : _https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkZgIN4cZYc
_http://lightofayurveda.wordpress.com/2013/02/10/kako-napraviti-ghee/
Anthony said:
The other day I found organic butter which was quite expensive, in a health food store BIO BIO (you have shop in Split) and sometimes you can find Irish butter Kerrygold in a supermarket LIDL. Here where I live I can get Bohnec's butter which seems slightly better than others from supermarkets.
Also you can make clarified butter (ghee) . You can find how to make it on youtube e.g : _https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkZgIN4cZYc
_http://lightofayurveda.wordpress.com/2013/02/10/kako-napraviti-ghee/
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
A lot of people don't tolerate egg whites. And everybody needs to find out if they do or don't. If you can tolerate it - good on you! Sadly, I for one took quite a while to find out I don't - an elimination diet at some stage is very important in my opinion formeveryone who wants to optimise his or her own diet.
Altair said:
A lot of people don't tolerate egg whites. And everybody needs to find out if they do or don't. If you can tolerate it - good on you! Sadly, I for one took quite a while to find out I don't - an elimination diet at some stage is very important in my opinion formeveryone who wants to optimise his or her own diet.
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
My keto experience and some questions
Have started 9 months ago with diet changes. After first mistakes with suddenly cutting grains described here http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,22916.msg462409.html#msg462409 and actually having no knowledge then about keto diet, I did the recommended reading – treads "Life Without Bread" , Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation? , Hemochromatosis, books Lutz Wolfgang – Live without bread, The Vegetarian Myth, Primal Body, Primal Mind, parts from Deep Nutrition, parts from The Art & Science of Low Carb Performance, videos from Monastyrsky and many others, links….. it took me months intensively to read all of this. It was hard but necessary, my problem is still English. Fear to understand wrong something that I read. Health consequences. Made myself a vocabulary with all expressions that I don't understand, that helped.
The amount of wrong, false data coming over officials, misdirected guidelines for diet and health, promoted grains and toxins – it is astonishing and almost unbelievable! From the food pyramid to many approved supplements in food industry. It is a crazy world.
After first mistakes, I tried to slow down and make reasonable steps. To increase slowly amount of fat and reduce carbohydrates. Cravings for sugar have been very, very strong for some 2 month. Sometimes I would take pieces of apple, chew it and spit it out. Over time it happened, I was no more addicted to sugar. After some time I made a test, have taken 2 apple pieces and cravings (short time standing) for sugar came back. This no-carbs-no-hunger state is wonderfull, no cravings. Eating for optimal body functioning and no brain fog from gluten.
I take daily
A teaspoon of sea salt in glass of water in the morning,
bone broth almost every day,
vitamin C a couple grams
vitamin D 16000 international units until April
Potassium chloride 2 g
Cod liver oil 2 tablespoons.
Magnesium in form of MgCl2, pinch in glass of water before sleeping. I am aware that other forms of Mg are recommended, but the offer here is questionable and the price…
I did not have possibility to order ox bile or many other supplements per internet so I took in winter often sauerkraut to help my digestion, until digestion became smoother, more easy. Since very long time no nausea. Used lettuce to eat lard more easy. Garlic and ginger almost daily, small quantities.
No keto sticks here, no sweet potato, cashews no gluten free chocolate and many other things but going keto is doable even with many limits.
Found stevia in one shop. Great! Have happily bought it, but before use per mail I asked about gluten - production line and packaging. The answer: Yes, gluten can be present. Same problem with many other products. It would not wonder me if one day I would buy a TV and the remote control would be drenched with grains. “Oh, that is just to remind the buyer on daily grain-intake”. Crazy, crazy world.
Salt urge decreased after introduced sea salt and potassium. Leg cramps seized after increased Mg intake. 4 months ago a several days very strong gases. 3 months ago very bad mouth smell. Extra water intake helped in 2 days. Headache very rare. Had flu in same time as other family members, twice in past 4 months, it was very strong and bad in my case.
Have tested coconut oil and cocoa – bad reaction, no more testing for a long time.
Have tested almond, hazelnut and walnut – no problem.
Sometimes I make quick “cream” by melting some 100 g butter and in that I squeeze 2-3 strawberries. After it is cold, I eat it, little by little.
After calculating (192 cm tall, optimal body weight should be some 92 kg) it came that I should eat some 90 - 100 g protein daily (1 g -1,1 g per kg of optimal body weight) plus approx. 200 g fat. That should do it but I have lost since April 6 kg more weight. Some pain in muscles, have sometimes harder physical work. Now I am very skinny (scrawny), people would say “skin and bones”. Family wants that I quit this, I don't want to do it. Especially taking grains – if someone would put me in jail and gave me bread and water, first 20 days I would drink only water. This additional weight loss seems good to get rid of bad fat and toxins.
Mostly I eat cooked beef meat, baked beef liver or eggs. Approx. 100 g meat or 4 eggs per meal and 50 g fat from butter per meal and a bit more from lard from baking. It is 4 meals per day.
My questions are
To gain weight (and probably connected with muscle pain) – should I stay at approx. 100 g protein per day divided in 4 meals and increase just fat as much as I can tolerate?
Can somewhere link a reliable digestion – time table for different groceries? Have seen some but digestion times are in big range in different tables, it is confusing.
Any idea to reduce those 4 meals to 3, somehow (problem 25 g protein)? It is hard to manage it while work, unexpected things happens and I skip a meal often, that is also a reason for loosing 6 kg in last couple months.
During flu i forced myself to eat 4 times. Also I have lost mostly the “wish” to eat at all. No appetite, but I mean not that carbohydrate-craving appetite, I belive you know what I mean. It seems not to be connected with just few different meals.
Can any diary product next to butter be used (cant remember, maybe someone mentioned sour cream or something else)?
Is there any knowable quality difference between pale (more white than yellowish) and very yellow butter? It came now to my mind that maybe a test – making ghee – simply melting butter could give some answers (?) but I would rather ask this.
If I remember correctly, mushrooms are not recommended even in small amounts?
A lot of writing already, but one more question. I have overdrive with only lard as fat source and would like to continue some time with butter. In total my fat comes now from approx. 95 % butter and 5 % lard (from baking) and 2 tablespoons cod liver oil. Is this tolerable at least for some time in sense omega acids ratio?
Many thanks to all participants of this forum. All corrections, recommendations and comments are wellcomed.
Sorry for the length of this post.
My keto experience and some questions
Have started 9 months ago with diet changes. After first mistakes with suddenly cutting grains described here http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,22916.msg462409.html#msg462409 and actually having no knowledge then about keto diet, I did the recommended reading – treads "Life Without Bread" , Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation? , Hemochromatosis, books Lutz Wolfgang – Live without bread, The Vegetarian Myth, Primal Body, Primal Mind, parts from Deep Nutrition, parts from The Art & Science of Low Carb Performance, videos from Monastyrsky and many others, links….. it took me months intensively to read all of this. It was hard but necessary, my problem is still English. Fear to understand wrong something that I read. Health consequences. Made myself a vocabulary with all expressions that I don't understand, that helped.
The amount of wrong, false data coming over officials, misdirected guidelines for diet and health, promoted grains and toxins – it is astonishing and almost unbelievable! From the food pyramid to many approved supplements in food industry. It is a crazy world.
After first mistakes, I tried to slow down and make reasonable steps. To increase slowly amount of fat and reduce carbohydrates. Cravings for sugar have been very, very strong for some 2 month. Sometimes I would take pieces of apple, chew it and spit it out. Over time it happened, I was no more addicted to sugar. After some time I made a test, have taken 2 apple pieces and cravings (short time standing) for sugar came back. This no-carbs-no-hunger state is wonderfull, no cravings. Eating for optimal body functioning and no brain fog from gluten.
I take daily
A teaspoon of sea salt in glass of water in the morning,
bone broth almost every day,
vitamin C a couple grams
vitamin D 16000 international units until April
Potassium chloride 2 g
Cod liver oil 2 tablespoons.
Magnesium in form of MgCl2, pinch in glass of water before sleeping. I am aware that other forms of Mg are recommended, but the offer here is questionable and the price…
I did not have possibility to order ox bile or many other supplements per internet so I took in winter often sauerkraut to help my digestion, until digestion became smoother, more easy. Since very long time no nausea. Used lettuce to eat lard more easy. Garlic and ginger almost daily, small quantities.
No keto sticks here, no sweet potato, cashews no gluten free chocolate and many other things but going keto is doable even with many limits.
Found stevia in one shop. Great! Have happily bought it, but before use per mail I asked about gluten - production line and packaging. The answer: Yes, gluten can be present. Same problem with many other products. It would not wonder me if one day I would buy a TV and the remote control would be drenched with grains. “Oh, that is just to remind the buyer on daily grain-intake”. Crazy, crazy world.
Salt urge decreased after introduced sea salt and potassium. Leg cramps seized after increased Mg intake. 4 months ago a several days very strong gases. 3 months ago very bad mouth smell. Extra water intake helped in 2 days. Headache very rare. Had flu in same time as other family members, twice in past 4 months, it was very strong and bad in my case.
Have tested coconut oil and cocoa – bad reaction, no more testing for a long time.
Have tested almond, hazelnut and walnut – no problem.
Sometimes I make quick “cream” by melting some 100 g butter and in that I squeeze 2-3 strawberries. After it is cold, I eat it, little by little.
After calculating (192 cm tall, optimal body weight should be some 92 kg) it came that I should eat some 90 - 100 g protein daily (1 g -1,1 g per kg of optimal body weight) plus approx. 200 g fat. That should do it but I have lost since April 6 kg more weight. Some pain in muscles, have sometimes harder physical work. Now I am very skinny (scrawny), people would say “skin and bones”. Family wants that I quit this, I don't want to do it. Especially taking grains – if someone would put me in jail and gave me bread and water, first 20 days I would drink only water. This additional weight loss seems good to get rid of bad fat and toxins.
Mostly I eat cooked beef meat, baked beef liver or eggs. Approx. 100 g meat or 4 eggs per meal and 50 g fat from butter per meal and a bit more from lard from baking. It is 4 meals per day.
My questions are
To gain weight (and probably connected with muscle pain) – should I stay at approx. 100 g protein per day divided in 4 meals and increase just fat as much as I can tolerate?
Can somewhere link a reliable digestion – time table for different groceries? Have seen some but digestion times are in big range in different tables, it is confusing.
Any idea to reduce those 4 meals to 3, somehow (problem 25 g protein)? It is hard to manage it while work, unexpected things happens and I skip a meal often, that is also a reason for loosing 6 kg in last couple months.
During flu i forced myself to eat 4 times. Also I have lost mostly the “wish” to eat at all. No appetite, but I mean not that carbohydrate-craving appetite, I belive you know what I mean. It seems not to be connected with just few different meals.
Can any diary product next to butter be used (cant remember, maybe someone mentioned sour cream or something else)?
Is there any knowable quality difference between pale (more white than yellowish) and very yellow butter? It came now to my mind that maybe a test – making ghee – simply melting butter could give some answers (?) but I would rather ask this.
If I remember correctly, mushrooms are not recommended even in small amounts?
A lot of writing already, but one more question. I have overdrive with only lard as fat source and would like to continue some time with butter. In total my fat comes now from approx. 95 % butter and 5 % lard (from baking) and 2 tablespoons cod liver oil. Is this tolerable at least for some time in sense omega acids ratio?
Many thanks to all participants of this forum. All corrections, recommendations and comments are wellcomed.
Sorry for the length of this post.
Goemon_
The Living Force
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Little by little I have come to eat twice a day (per meal: 40g protein / 120gr added fat), reading this forum I don't see evidence on this 25g-of-protein-per-meal-necessity. In any case, my (blood) ketone meter readings seems to indicate that going up to 50g of protein a meal make my glucose level higher (100mg/dl) and my ketone level lower (0,7mmol/L).
Some here mentioned double cream if tolerated.
From what I have read so far I understand that in a natural state yellow butter would be better (more omega 3). But in the industrial world they can add some colorant to yellowish butter.
My2cents
Toda22 said:
Little by little I have come to eat twice a day (per meal: 40g protein / 120gr added fat), reading this forum I don't see evidence on this 25g-of-protein-per-meal-necessity. In any case, my (blood) ketone meter readings seems to indicate that going up to 50g of protein a meal make my glucose level higher (100mg/dl) and my ketone level lower (0,7mmol/L).
Toda22 said:
Some here mentioned double cream if tolerated.
Toda22 said:
From what I have read so far I understand that in a natural state yellow butter would be better (more omega 3). But in the industrial world they can add some colorant to yellowish butter.
My2cents
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Supermarket butter can be easily converted to ghee. Just melt it slowly in a pot and let the solids sink to the bottom and carefully pour off the pure fat. Or you can let it sit a bit to solidify and then scoop it into a jar and leave the milk solids in the bottom of the pan.
Supermarket butter can be easily converted to ghee. Just melt it slowly in a pot and let the solids sink to the bottom and carefully pour off the pure fat. Or you can let it sit a bit to solidify and then scoop it into a jar and leave the milk solids in the bottom of the pan.
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Thank you for sharing your experience! You have done and continue doing a marvelous job
When you skip meals, I would have something fatty at hand. I usually take the fat bomb (see the recipes section for a coconut-free version) and/or a thermos with coconut oil and cream mixed with a little bit of water, cocoa and stevia. If you are sensitive to these, you can take black tea with plenty of butter.
Another option is to have the fatty bone broth at hand in a thermos. Something you can drink and/or eat occasionally when you are hungry and/or outside and unable to have a home-made meal.
The fat bomb does a particular good job if you don't want to lose weight.
The yellower the butter, the more vitamin K it has. Vitamin K is essential for proper calcium metabolism among other things. People with calcium deposits in their aorta or other soft tissues would want to make sure they're getting enough K. This vitamin helps the calcium go into the bones and teeth instead of soft tissues. But whatever butter you can get will do.
Mushrooms are pretty good because they are very low carb, but if you have histamine problems (i.e. itchy rashes), then they're best avoided because it makes those problems worse. They're also generally discouraged if there are fungal infections.
The omega ratio sounds pretty good to me. Saturated fat diminishes significantly the need for Omega 3s. Whatever you eat will be maximally utilized and stabilized by the saturated fat. Just make sure to avoid hydrogenated oils like the plague if you happen to eat outside.
Maybe others will have other ideas
Toda22 said:
Thank you for sharing your experience! You have done and continue doing a marvelous job
When you skip meals, I would have something fatty at hand. I usually take the fat bomb (see the recipes section for a coconut-free version) and/or a thermos with coconut oil and cream mixed with a little bit of water, cocoa and stevia. If you are sensitive to these, you can take black tea with plenty of butter.
Another option is to have the fatty bone broth at hand in a thermos. Something you can drink and/or eat occasionally when you are hungry and/or outside and unable to have a home-made meal.
The fat bomb does a particular good job if you don't want to lose weight.
The yellower the butter, the more vitamin K it has. Vitamin K is essential for proper calcium metabolism among other things. People with calcium deposits in their aorta or other soft tissues would want to make sure they're getting enough K. This vitamin helps the calcium go into the bones and teeth instead of soft tissues. But whatever butter you can get will do.
Mushrooms are pretty good because they are very low carb, but if you have histamine problems (i.e. itchy rashes), then they're best avoided because it makes those problems worse. They're also generally discouraged if there are fungal infections.
The omega ratio sounds pretty good to me. Saturated fat diminishes significantly the need for Omega 3s. Whatever you eat will be maximally utilized and stabilized by the saturated fat. Just make sure to avoid hydrogenated oils like the plague if you happen to eat outside.
Maybe others will have other ideas
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
The 25g protein per meal was tackled a long time ago, and is one of those things that we seem to have forgotten the details about, one reason I'm glad to see Gaby working on a diet/health reference based on the forum research.
You don't need to have protein consistently with each meal, but you need to have the right protein level over time. While eating only the amount of protein necessary (25g or so based on our research) is optimal for someone who is not growing or healing and can digest all their food, it is still okay to eat as much protein as you can before it begins to interfere with ketosis.
So I'd say 25g-50g per meal is a good range for people in ketosis. Before adapting to ketosis many people are actually losing protein from their organs overnight in order to satisfy the body's energy needs, muscle wasting which reduces tissue quality. This may temporarily become worse while keto-adapting. So while keto-adapting it is important not to limit protein.
I can't find the references in the LWB thread. It was a study about protein intake and the implication was that under the right conditions, the minimum protein intake might be smaller than we think.
The 25g protein per meal was tackled a long time ago, and is one of those things that we seem to have forgotten the details about, one reason I'm glad to see Gaby working on a diet/health reference based on the forum research.
You don't need to have protein consistently with each meal, but you need to have the right protein level over time. While eating only the amount of protein necessary (25g or so based on our research) is optimal for someone who is not growing or healing and can digest all their food, it is still okay to eat as much protein as you can before it begins to interfere with ketosis.
So I'd say 25g-50g per meal is a good range for people in ketosis. Before adapting to ketosis many people are actually losing protein from their organs overnight in order to satisfy the body's energy needs, muscle wasting which reduces tissue quality. This may temporarily become worse while keto-adapting. So while keto-adapting it is important not to limit protein.
I can't find the references in the LWB thread. It was a study about protein intake and the implication was that under the right conditions, the minimum protein intake might be smaller than we think.
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Let me explain where the 25 - 30g protein-per-meal restriction comes from. In fact, if you google "daily protein requirement" you will get vastly digressing opinions. So who is right? As so very often in science, the correct answer is "it depends".
When you eat more than 25-30g of proteins per meal you trigger the mTOR system. This Wikipedia article explains mTOR as:
Now the question is, is that a good thing? And here lies the rub - it depends, what you want.
Volek wrote an article saying that if you want muscle growth, then you need to stimulate your mTOR system - he calls it "the switch to muscle building". And you do that by increasing your protein content, and especially the amino acid leucine. This also translates in easier fat loss and maintenance of muscle mass.
Quote from the above mentioned article:
In another article, Layman says the following:
However, according to an article written by Rosedale, this comes at a price:
So, in summary, stimulating your mTOR might be beneficial in the short run (muscle buildup, fat loss), but it might be detrimental on the long run by decreasing longevity. It's the same thing as is the case with insulin - if you chronically stimulate the insulin system, you wear it down and chronic illness follows (metabolic syndrome, cancers etc.). This same logic applies to the mTOR pathway (via leptin) as well.
I hope this clarifies where the 25-30g per meal restriction idea comes from.
Goemon_ said:
Let me explain where the 25 - 30g protein-per-meal restriction comes from. In fact, if you google "daily protein requirement" you will get vastly digressing opinions. So who is right? As so very often in science, the correct answer is "it depends".
When you eat more than 25-30g of proteins per meal you trigger the mTOR system. This Wikipedia article explains mTOR as:
Now the question is, is that a good thing? And here lies the rub - it depends, what you want.
Volek wrote an article saying that if you want muscle growth, then you need to stimulate your mTOR system - he calls it "the switch to muscle building". And you do that by increasing your protein content, and especially the amino acid leucine. This also translates in easier fat loss and maintenance of muscle mass.
Quote from the above mentioned article:
In another article, Layman says the following:
However, according to an article written by Rosedale, this comes at a price:
So, in summary, stimulating your mTOR might be beneficial in the short run (muscle buildup, fat loss), but it might be detrimental on the long run by decreasing longevity. It's the same thing as is the case with insulin - if you chronically stimulate the insulin system, you wear it down and chronic illness follows (metabolic syndrome, cancers etc.). This same logic applies to the mTOR pathway (via leptin) as well.
I hope this clarifies where the 25-30g per meal restriction idea comes from.
