Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I read this article from Dr. Christianson about high fat in your diet. He addresses the fact that for some it doesn't seem to work, or might even be detrimental, and offers a hypothesis why this may be so.

This is the source of the article: _http://drchristianson.com/the-best-fat-intake-for-the-top-3-genotypes-which-are-you/?inf_contact_key=e777be0349dd03c8c09d317060b0e2a868174e0c68b22b99dd6c1bbf9a2b7fe9

Some excerpts:

High fat diets might be popular, but did you know that for roughly 20% of the population it can raise your risk of Alzheimer’s disease by up to 10 fold? That’s a staggering number and something we definitely want to avoid. Let’s learn why today, so that you can learn if you are at risk and how to minimize your risks right away. -

[...]

What Is The APOE Gene?

The APOE gene affects the size of our chylomicrons, which means that it changes how we metabolize fats throughout our body. It is true for our blood stream, as well as in our brain. So, fats and cholesterol are transported differently based directly on these chylomicrons in our body.

Think about it like this. When I think of chylomicrons I think of carts in a mine, you know those carts that sit on tracks and transport the coal from inside of the mine to the great outdoors? These are like the chylomicrons in our body which help move fats around. If they are too big, we are less able to get the “coal” out from the mine – it is all about size, which determines how well you move fats throughout your body.

The APOE gene matters, basically, because of the disease risks involved. These can include:

Alzheimer’s
Stroke
Diabetes
Obesity
Heart Disease
Nails

Which Types Are There?

There are different types of the APOE genotype, which are the:

2 alleles
3 alleles
4 alleles
Now, you can imagine the different combinations that we might have, such as: 2/2/, 2/4, etc. The most common, and the ones we are going to be talking about today, are:

2/3
3/3
3/4
4/4
These are the most common ones for the vast majority of people. Of those, the 2/3 and the 3/3 are the most common that we see in average populations. While it might vary based upon ethnicity, this is what is most typical across the board.
How Can You Know Which One You Have?

There are definitely options to find out. There are regular labs which can show these genotypes through blood tests. By and large, though, this information can quickly become less confidential. If you are okay with this type of information being on public record, then it is definitely a route you can pursue. These tests are also typically not covered by insurance, which is not helpful.

Typically, the most cost effective way to find out more is through 23andMe (1). While I have no personal financial involvement with them, they remain a good option for those looking to find out more – and it only costs a couple hundred dollars, which is much more affordable when compared to the alternatives.

The nice thing about 23andMe is that you get so much information through their reports, like ancestry knowledge and other fun things. While there may not be a huge wealth of knowledge about your health, due to federal regulations, it can still provide you with some of that important genotype information that you need to know.

He then goes on to tell you how to search your raw data on 23andme and determine your alleles.

It would be interesting for those who have done their DNA and to check their allels and compare this to how they fared on the KD. If that is true what Christianson said above, this would go a long way explaining why some fare so wonderfully, while for others KD is an abject failure. Of course it's unlikely to be the only explanation, but I found it interesting.

I myself am of the E2/E3 allel group and I did - as projected - fare well on the KD.

 

[Arwenn]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

[quote author=nicklebleu]

I read this article from Dr. Christianson about high fat in your diet. He addresses the fact that for some it doesn't seem to work, or might even be detrimental, and offers a hypothesis why this may be so. [/quote]

Thanks for posting this nicklebleu, as I am one of those for whom strict keto didn't work- certainly it removed the gut inflammation (but cutting dairy and wheat was the main cause of that), but it worsened my mood and energy levels. I've been meaning to do the 23andMe test DNA test, will be interesting to see what my alleles are.

 

[anka]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Just for the record, here's some corrupted science article:

Cancer spread is increased by a high fat diet, ground-breaking evidence shows

_https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/12/161207132117.htm

In fact the have only tested specific type of fat, palmitic acid, and come to a conclusion about danger of fat overconsumption.

New research shows that the metastatic process (cancer spread) is enhanced by fat intake. Mice given a high fat diet, including palmitic acid (a major component of palm oil which is found in lots of household products) developed the most aggressive cancer spread. The study identifies for the first time a protein called CD36 which has an essential role in cancer spreading.

They blame fat in general in the title and in the summary but then in the middle of the article you can find:

They went on to test a specific saturated fatty acid called palmitic acid -- a major component of animal and vegetable fats and present at high levels in palm oil which is used in many house hold products from peanut butter and processed food to toothpaste. The researchers treated human oral tumours with palmitic acid for two days then injected them into mice fed a standard diet. The team observed that all the mice with CD36 developed cancer spread compared to only half when not treated with palmitic acid.

FWIW

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I read this interesting abstract - although I haven't been able yet to get the full text:

Physiol Behav. 2017 Jun 13;179:168-177. doi: 10.1016/j.physbeh.2017.06.007. [Epub ahead of print]

The ketogenic diet affects the social behavior of young male rats.

Kasprowska-Liśkiewicz D1, Liśkiewicz AD2, Nowacka-Chmielewska MM3, Nowicka J4, Małecki A5, Barski JJ6.

Abstract
The positive effects of the ketogenic diet (KD) on social behavior have been recently reported in patients and rodent models of autism spectrum disorder (ASD). Given the beneficial effects of the KD on epilepsy, mitochondrial function, carbohydrate metabolism, and inflammation, treatment based on the KD has the potential to reduce some of the ASD-associated symptoms, including abnormal social interactions. It is not known whether the KD influences sociability by reducing the pathological processes underlying ASD or through some independent mechanism. The aim of the present study was to evaluate the influence of the KD on the social behavior of rats. Four-week-old Long-Evans males were treated with the KD for 4 subsequent weeks. Afterwards, behavioral tests were performed in order to evaluate sociability, locomotor activity, working memory, and anxiety-related behaviors. Additionally we performed the social interaction test in animals that were receiving β-hydroxybutyrate or acetone. We have observed that rats fed with the KD showed increased social exploration in three different experimental settings. We did not observe any changes in the level of social interactions in animals treated with exogenous ketone bodies. The results did not show any difference in mobility or anxiety-related behaviors or working memory between the animals fed with the KD or standard rodent chow. In conclusion, we showed that the KD affects the social behavior of wild-type young adult male rats, which was not associated with other behavioral changes.
Copyright © 2017. Published by Elsevier Inc.

Source

Another pieces in the puzzle why the PTB like carbs ...

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Another pieces in the puzzle why the PTB like carbs ...

It is interesting to see the encouraging results they see despite adding some inflammatory components to the ketogenic diet:

Ketogenic diet (HFKD)[7.2 kcal/g]%
Protein 25.94 Lard 47.809
Total fat 5.19 Butter fat 20
Fiber 10.37 Corn oil 11
Starch 48.9 Casein 9.5
Ash 4.7 Dextrose 0.75
Minerals and Vitamins 4.8 Wheat bran 5
Minerals and Vitamins 5.941

 

[anartist]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I read this article from Dr. Christianson about high fat in your diet. He addresses the fact that for some it doesn't seem to work, or might even be detrimental, and offers a hypothesis why this may be so.

This is the source of the article: _http://drchristianson.com/the-best-fat-intake-for-the-top-3-genotypes-which-are-you/?inf_contact_key=e777be0349dd03c8c09d317060b0e2a868174e0c68b22b99dd6c1bbf9a2b7fe9
-SNiP-
He then goes on to tell you how to search your raw data on 23andme and determine your alleles.

It would be interesting for those who have done their DNA and to check their allels and compare this to how they fared on the KD. If that is true what Christianson said above, this would go a long way explaining why some fare so wonderfully, while for others KD is an abject failure. Of course it's unlikely to be the only explanation, but I found it interesting.

I myself am of the E2/E3 allel group and I did - as projected - fare well on the KD.

Thanks for this NickleBleu.
Oddly enough I had just unsubscribed from Dr Christiansons' email list a few days previously, for the reason that he keeps giving out information like this (from the article you link to above)

We can bring more polyunsaturated fats into our diets with:
Corn Oil
Sunflower Oil
Fatty fish, such as salmon, mackerel, herring and trout
We can find monounsaturated fats in:
Olive Oil
Canola Oil
Peanut Oil
Seasame Oil

The use of any processed vegetable oil (organic or not) such as Canola, Sunflower, Corn oil is damaging to our bodies (see Dr Shanahan's Deep Nutrition_https://smile.amazon.com/Deep-Nutrition-Your-Genes-Traditional/dp/1250113822/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499043752&sr=8-1&keywords=deep+nutrition ) Not only that, but he did not put any references or links in his article, and there is no feedback option i.e. he does not want feedback from his readers. So I don't take his word for anything.
I did a little searching on the interweb and found among other sites this one
_http://www.gbhealthwatch.com/GND-High-Cholesterol-APOE.php
Once you get past the cholesterol will kill you, they talk about APOE and the allelles. trouble is I don't know what to do with the information! They mention diet in the article in passing, but their chart showing Coronary Heart Disease risk and allelle shows my E3/E4 at higher risk (odds ratio (whatever that is) of approx 1.05. opposed to your odds ratio of 0.8) and they compare LDL levels based on the allelles, but with no differentiation between fluffy LDL and very dense LDL. (based on a meta-analysis of 86,000) My macronutrients should be 20% fat, 25% protein, 55% carb (yours is 30%, 15%, 55%). Not in line with a Keto or Paleo diet!
So I have two questions on this that I will think about (not necessarily questions I am asking you) and they are
1. May I assume this meta-analysis is based on people eating the majority SADiet?
2. May epigenetics affect the expression of these APOE lipoproteins? Perhaps when new APOE is created epigentics may be a factor?

My greatest fat loss (55 pounds)was when I began to reduce carbs(changes in diet can often result in weight loss), had stabilized when I reached zero carbs (more or less) at 9 months, and my weight was constant for 2 years before gradually climbing by 20 pounds over the past year, when I started to eat more vegetables (still no grains or legumes)
In my case the E3/E4 allelles may explain why I have to say that I have been low energy as well on the ketogenic diet. Consequently I have recently (2 months ago) embarked on carb cycling using the alt-shift protocol, but although my energy has improved, nothing else has changed (weight, body composition).
It is such a puzzle! It looks like moving to the ketogenic diet resulted in a positive change, but was most likely due to the movement to ketogenic, not the ketogenic diet itself.

 

[whitecoast]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Hi all. I was looking to get a panel of tests done for food sensitivities, gut flora, and heavy metals. I know that some people were taking a comprehensive test here, but I wasn't sure if that was the same thing as the IgG ELISA comprehensive food panel? _http://foodallergy.com/tests/order-a-test-kit/ I also thought that this was a test at a lab located in Europe, and kind of wanted something closer to home in North America.

I remember that keyhole did (what seemed to be) a really comprehensive gut flora test awhile back, but I couldn't remember in which thread I saw it and I felt embarrassed to ask.

For heavy metal tests, would a hair analysis or chelation-urine test produce more valuable data? A cousin of mine (who has been working with a naturopathic doctor for her autistic son) said she recommended a hair test because it would list the metals from the most recent exposures, giving an idea of how to effectively eliminate new sources of contamination. There seemed to be some merit to that, but imo would give less an idea of what's actually causing the most persistent damage, instead of just the most recent. :/

Let me know what you think, or if you have any particular recommendations. I've had reasonable success with elimination testing on foods, but I feel like my efforts to deal with gut flora issues and heavy metals may have been rather spotty, largely because I feel like I've been working in the dark a little too much. Once I have some solid facts to work with, I think it will make my life a whole lot easier.

Recently I've been struggling with low energy levels, and I think this may be in part due to developing a shallower ketosis from eating carbs in the evening and fat during the morning, which I don't think leaves enough time for my metabolism to switch gears. A friend suggested I could move meat/fat from breakfast to dinner, and carbs from dinner to lunch, so I will already be in ketosis by the time I fall asleep. I recently moved, which was an extremely stressful experience for the first couple of weeks, and I think it may have actually rattled my gut flora (brain-gut connection). I recall getting similar digestive disturbances in my 2nd last year of university, when dealing with a stressful breakup.

 

[Keyhole]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Hi all. I was looking to get a panel of tests done for food sensitivities, gut flora, and heavy metals. I know that some people were taking a comprehensive test here, but I wasn't sure if that was the same thing as the IgG ELISA comprehensive food panel? _http://foodallergy.com/tests/order-a-test-kit/ I also thought that this was a test at a lab located in Europe, and kind of wanted something closer to home in North America.

I remember that keyhole did (what seemed to be) a really comprehensive gut flora test awhile back, but I couldn't remember in which thread I saw it and I felt embarrassed to ask.

No need to feel embarrassed, whitecoast :D.

The test is the "GI Effects - Comprehensive stool profile" by a company called Genova Diagnostics. Link is HERE.

It can be useful for identifying inflammation, dysbiosis, parasitology, digestive insufficiency and overall health of the colon.

In terms of metals testing, I wouldn't personally do the hair mineral analysis... I would go for the urine profile after doing the small amount of chelating agent to give you a rough idea of which/how much metal is present. But quite frankly, I wouldn't do that for a long time until 1. you know your eliminating things properly through the gut, and 2. your fairly sure that your liver health is well enough and you have adequate supply of redox agents like glutathione being produced.

Detoxification is a risky business if someone is in poor health or has poor elimination. IMO, focusing on optimising thyroid function & energy metabolism while increasing elimination of toxins should be priority (probably through the inclusion of carbohydrate in the diet), because these things are underpin everything else (detoxification, repair, etc).

 

[Keyhole]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Here is a very good explanation by Chris Masterjohn as to why carbohydrates spare muscle mass when compared with ketogenic diets.

https://youtu.be/uk0F6WK6-KM

This matches up with my own experimentation with a very low carbohydrate diet.

Overview for those interested in details:

-Both fat and carbohydrate are used to form acetyl CoA, which enters into the Krebs Cycle to produce NADH/FADH2 to enter into the electron transport chain to later produce ATP.

- For acetyl CoA to enter into the Krebs cycle, there MUST be adequate Oxaloacetate to accept it!

-Oxaloacetate is used for biosynthetic reactions elsewhere, so MUST be replenished via other means.

-Pyruvate from glucose metabolism is the main source used to replenish oxaloacetate via pyruvate decarboxylase.

-The glycerol from fatty acids and the acetone from ketogenesis can replenish SMALL amounts of oxaloacetate, however these are probably not sufficient for replenishing the whole lot. Also, the pyruvate produced via these means must also be utilised for glucose-dependent tissues such as red blood cells etc, astrocytes, etc.

-In carbohydrate restriction, there is a lack of pyruvate, and likely not enough glycerol or acetone to replenish all of the needed oxaloacetate - therefore the body must use amino acids to convert to pyruvate/oxaloacetate.

-The amino acids must come from liberal protein consumption. In the case of protein restriction, these amino acids will come from lean muscle mass.

- If someone is very efficient at utilising small amounts of carbohydrates AND protein metabolism, then they may be able to spare lean muscle mass on a ketogenic diet while doing sufficient exercise.

-If someone is not efficient, then ketosis will likely eat into lean muscle tissue.

- He cites an interesting study regarding the nitrogen balance in subjects following a ketogenic and non-ketogenic diet. Non-ketogenic diets spared 2lbs of lean muscle mass when compared with ketogenic subjects.


Overall, the biochemistry behind this supports the idea of at least seasonal carbohydrate consumption. It does not support long-term ketogenesis. This is in-line with my own views that ketogenic diets are decent temporary measures in multiple conditions and perhaps evolutionarily designed as practical means of survival during winter/food shortages.

 

[DianaRose94]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I know it may seems a stupid question, but from where do you get your fat? I read Keto-Adapted and The Secret of Living on Low Carbohydrate. I understand that some oil are better than other. I'm ok with low carb and protein but I'm not sure how to have high level of fat. A lot of recipe I've seen involve pork which I don't eat. I wonder what's the alternative. Besides, in Volek's book, they seemed to not mind cream. But from what I gather in the forum dairy should be removed. I don't know, I'm just wondering how do you guys eat? By the way, for those living in the UK, I know that beef fat and duck fat are highly recommended. If someone actually buy those, could they tell me where they do? I've found some site for beef tallow but oh boy it is pricey! I'm ready to spend in the money if necessary, but I also need to be realistic. I was wondering something, I try to buy organic food as much as possible. But for the meat fat, if it isn't organic is it so bad? I have in my duck fat. I've found a few brand but they aren't organic.

 

[Siberia]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I know it may seems a stupid question, but from where do you get your fat?

Hi DianaRose,

I mostly use lard, coconut oil, ghee and butter, depending on the recipe. People may react differently to different types of fats, so it's hard to tell which kind of fat would work best for you personally. As for me, pork lard works best. Especially if it's salted, frozen and then sliced it's really awesome. Coconut oil is good for cooking, since it doesn't burn like butter, but butter is very tasty, if you add it to already cooked foods. I use 82 percent butter, so that the diary part was minimal. Ghee can be used for cooking too, but not everyone is okay with it's taste and smell.

Hope this helps. :)

 

[Keyhole]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

[quote author=DianaRose94]I'm just wondering how do you guys eat? By the way, for those living in the UK, I know that beef fat and duck fat are highly recommended. If someone actually buy those, could they tell me where they do?[/quote]

Hi DianaRose94, I live in the UK. We get our lamb, beef, bones, offal and fat from this organic farm : Fordhall Organic Farm.

The beef and lamb from this farm are 100% grass-fed and grass-finished. You can buy beef tallow from there which is rendered and packaged in plastic containers. From what I understand, they ship across the UK for a small price of around £10. We don't buy the pork from there, since it is fed grain. The fat is around £2.50 for 250g, and the bones and offal are cheap. The cheapest option for meat which we currently buy is the "bulk-buy" beef mince and lamb mince option - which costs £35 for 5kg.

For pork, we would go to another producer such as these : Eversfield Organic farm. Although it is very pricey to get pastured pork, so we tend not to eat so much of it these days.

For butter, the Kerrygold brand is close enough to 100% grassfed, and is found in most supermarkets.

 

[Ollie]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

[quote author=DianaRose94]I'm just wondering how do you guys eat? By the way, for those living in the UK, I know that beef fat and duck fat are highly recommended. If someone actually buy those, could they tell me where they do?[/quote]

It is a few years since I lived in the UK, but when I did, I got my duck fat from, either Waitrose or Sainsburys. I still have some jars. :) The organic farms mentioned by Keyhole are good too, although I got my meat from a local organic farm, which had a butcher's department.

 

[Adaryn]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I know it may seems a stupid question, but from where do you get your fat?

On top of the other suggestions (coconut oil, lard, butter, duck fat…), you could also eat avocado, which is a healthy source of fat.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2017/04/24/avocados-may-help-prevent-metabolic-syndrome.aspx
A nice recipe: dairy-free avocado-chocolate mousse (you can replace the maple syrup with xylitol): http://www.taste.com.au/recipes/dairy-free-avocado-chocolate-mousse/33f015f8-5a87-4b9d-a1fc-91f9e04fa72c

And don't forget eggs! (especially the yolk) - if you tolerate them.

 

[hlat]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

A nice recipe: dairy-free avocado-chocolate mousse (you can replace the maple syrup with xylitol): http://www.taste.com.au/recipes/dairy-free-avocado-chocolate-mousse/33f015f8-5a87-4b9d-a1fc-91f9e04fa72c

I tried xylitol for some time and decided to stop and go back to raw sugar. Xylitol was causing me to have nasal congestion. Plus, I am concerned that xylitol kills off good gut bacteria.