Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions
- Thread starter Laura
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Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
It is interesting to note that 'breakfast' is just that - break(ing a) fast.
Note that Data says that he 'breaks his fast around noon' - his fast is from 7 (in the evening) to noon the next day. And, he is eating within a span of 9 hours - which includes the magnesium. However, according to Rhonda Patrick, the Mate tea would contribute to breaking the overnight fast.hlat said:
It is interesting to note that 'breakfast' is just that - break(ing a) fast.
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
I would think that "breaking a fast" would only include taking in calories in some form, so taking supplements generally wouldn't be considered breaking a fast (unless the supplement is a fat or sweetened/flavoured in some way).
Eboard10 said:
I would think that "breaking a fast" would only include taking in calories in some form, so taking supplements generally wouldn't be considered breaking a fast (unless the supplement is a fat or sweetened/flavoured in some way).
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Well, Rhonda Patrick is a chemist, so her standards of breaking a fast goes down to the simplest chemicals. Her standard is higher so to speak. Nevertheless, I think we can look at it with some perspective. If taking some relaxing supplements before going to bed gives you benefit, you can take them without concerns.
Anecdotally, some people shared in the podcasts how they thought they did intermittent fasting, but upon hearing the concepts and research shared by Rhonda Patrick, they decided to do a stricter time-feeding interval. They thought that coffee with coconut oil didn't count as breaking the fast and when they drank water instead (leaving the coffee for the time-restricted feeding), they reported benefits in terms of performance and fitness. That is anecedotally though.
I'm organizing myself so I can take my supplements after or before eating. But I wouldn't hesitate to take supplements before going to bed if I thought that was going to help me.
dugdeep said:
Well, Rhonda Patrick is a chemist, so her standards of breaking a fast goes down to the simplest chemicals. Her standard is higher so to speak. Nevertheless, I think we can look at it with some perspective. If taking some relaxing supplements before going to bed gives you benefit, you can take them without concerns.
Anecdotally, some people shared in the podcasts how they thought they did intermittent fasting, but upon hearing the concepts and research shared by Rhonda Patrick, they decided to do a stricter time-feeding interval. They thought that coffee with coconut oil didn't count as breaking the fast and when they drank water instead (leaving the coffee for the time-restricted feeding), they reported benefits in terms of performance and fitness. That is anecedotally though.
I'm organizing myself so I can take my supplements after or before eating. But I wouldn't hesitate to take supplements before going to bed if I thought that was going to help me.
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
That's very interesting Gaby, thanks for sharing!
I too feel much better when I eat two times a day, one time early in the morning and the next around 4:30 pm. I sometimes eat at 6pm due to my schedule but I guess that seems to work well as well. Sometimes I eat a late diner because I'm invited to diner with the family or friends, and then I feel a bit less energetic the next day...
I've been taking magnesium and probiotics before going to sleep, I didn't think that could break the fast, so I'll see if I can change the time to take them and see if there's a difference.
I do drink Mate tea throughout the day and sometimes even at night, though... I guess I should stick to the rule of no tea after 5 - 6 pm. I'll give it a try and see if I can notice any difference. :)
That's very interesting Gaby, thanks for sharing!
I too feel much better when I eat two times a day, one time early in the morning and the next around 4:30 pm. I sometimes eat at 6pm due to my schedule but I guess that seems to work well as well. Sometimes I eat a late diner because I'm invited to diner with the family or friends, and then I feel a bit less energetic the next day...
I've been taking magnesium and probiotics before going to sleep, I didn't think that could break the fast, so I'll see if I can change the time to take them and see if there's a difference.
I do drink Mate tea throughout the day and sometimes even at night, though... I guess I should stick to the rule of no tea after 5 - 6 pm. I'll give it a try and see if I can notice any difference. :)
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
According to Rhonda Patrick, you can take a break a couple of times per week and still see results, or so the research says. So those days when you eat with family or friends can be the break. Works for me too! She does emphasize that supplements and caffeine does count as breaking the fast too.
Rhonda does say that time-restricted feeding should ideally be done earlier in the day because feeding is like a signal for your circadian rhythm and it helps you balance hormones. I think that whatever we can adjust to our lifestyle and daily demands would work though.
I should clarify that the study of intermittent fasting was independent of food sources and composition. That is, people still saw benefits of doing time-restricted feeding independently from what they ate. According to research, it does seem that we metabolize food better (with lower blood glucose levels) in the morning. They have done a study where people eat the same thing AM and PM. The food in AM will always be metabolized better, which points to the fact that we are diurnal creatures (or should be).
I think intermittent fasting (whenever possible) will also be very good for those of us who work night shifts: less inflammation, better hormone balance, restores our tissues through autophagy, etc. It promotes ketone production too.
She also said that if you don't eat enough soluble fiber, the microbiome will cannibalize (!) the gut lining to get its much needed food. So it is important in intermittent fasting or a keto diet to get enough of the good soluble fiber that your body can tolerate.
I was surprised to hear that she is very pro Omega 3 supplementation. She quotes studies and the fact that our brain's fatty composition is mostly essential fatty acids. She is aware about the problem of their oxidation and takes precautions with her supplements. You know you're hearing a doctoral chemist picking her supplements when you hear Rhonda Patrick! She quotes a company (Nordic Naturals) which uses a nitrogen environment during the isolation process of Omega 3s from fish. This way, the Omega 3s are not oxidized from exposure to to oxygen. She says she has taken Omega 3 supplementation for 9 consecutive years and thinks it has only benefited her.
She says that if you are getting an extra dose of IGF-1 in the ketogenic diet from meat consumption, then the wisest thing is to build up muscle mass. Otherwise IGF-1 may act against you.
She also speaks of water fasting and how your organs shrink during the process. Then, when it is time to eat again, the organs re-build themselves with the nutrients provided. The best results are seen with a water fasting of 4-5 days, but it is something very difficult to make. It can be contraindicated for some folk. She says that there was a mouse model study with a 2-3 day water fasting which had very good results. A lot of folk quote this study thinking that humans could do 2-3 days and they're good. Apparently for the human equivalent, it is more (4-5 days) to see similar results.
Yas said:
According to Rhonda Patrick, you can take a break a couple of times per week and still see results, or so the research says. So those days when you eat with family or friends can be the break. Works for me too! She does emphasize that supplements and caffeine does count as breaking the fast too.
Rhonda does say that time-restricted feeding should ideally be done earlier in the day because feeding is like a signal for your circadian rhythm and it helps you balance hormones. I think that whatever we can adjust to our lifestyle and daily demands would work though.
I should clarify that the study of intermittent fasting was independent of food sources and composition. That is, people still saw benefits of doing time-restricted feeding independently from what they ate. According to research, it does seem that we metabolize food better (with lower blood glucose levels) in the morning. They have done a study where people eat the same thing AM and PM. The food in AM will always be metabolized better, which points to the fact that we are diurnal creatures (or should be).
I think intermittent fasting (whenever possible) will also be very good for those of us who work night shifts: less inflammation, better hormone balance, restores our tissues through autophagy, etc. It promotes ketone production too.
She also said that if you don't eat enough soluble fiber, the microbiome will cannibalize (!) the gut lining to get its much needed food. So it is important in intermittent fasting or a keto diet to get enough of the good soluble fiber that your body can tolerate.
I was surprised to hear that she is very pro Omega 3 supplementation. She quotes studies and the fact that our brain's fatty composition is mostly essential fatty acids. She is aware about the problem of their oxidation and takes precautions with her supplements. You know you're hearing a doctoral chemist picking her supplements when you hear Rhonda Patrick! She quotes a company (Nordic Naturals) which uses a nitrogen environment during the isolation process of Omega 3s from fish. This way, the Omega 3s are not oxidized from exposure to to oxygen. She says she has taken Omega 3 supplementation for 9 consecutive years and thinks it has only benefited her.
She says that if you are getting an extra dose of IGF-1 in the ketogenic diet from meat consumption, then the wisest thing is to build up muscle mass. Otherwise IGF-1 may act against you.
She also speaks of water fasting and how your organs shrink during the process. Then, when it is time to eat again, the organs re-build themselves with the nutrients provided. The best results are seen with a water fasting of 4-5 days, but it is something very difficult to make. It can be contraindicated for some folk. She says that there was a mouse model study with a 2-3 day water fasting which had very good results. A lot of folk quote this study thinking that humans could do 2-3 days and they're good. Apparently for the human equivalent, it is more (4-5 days) to see similar results.
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
As our experiments with diet and health over the past 8 or 9 years have continued, we have found that the ketogenic diet appears to be most helpful in particular situations, for particular conditions. It might be helpful for someone with basically good health for a short period, and for others with a "condition" for long term. But every case is different and, in general, I don't think that the majority of people should pursue it as a lifestyle.
Here's an article about how it helps brain chemistry issues: https://www.sott.net/article/363390-Psychosis-mood-and-diet-Low-carbohydrate-diet-superior-to-antipsychotic-medications
Ketogenic diet is obviously indicated in quite a number of brain chemistry or brain health situations. It also seems to be very helpful with respect to cancer. But so far, we haven't seen much evidence of it being helpful with more general organic conditions. I think I'm going to change the title of this thread to reflect what we have learned.
As our experiments with diet and health over the past 8 or 9 years have continued, we have found that the ketogenic diet appears to be most helpful in particular situations, for particular conditions. It might be helpful for someone with basically good health for a short period, and for others with a "condition" for long term. But every case is different and, in general, I don't think that the majority of people should pursue it as a lifestyle.
Here's an article about how it helps brain chemistry issues: https://www.sott.net/article/363390-Psychosis-mood-and-diet-Low-carbohydrate-diet-superior-to-antipsychotic-medications
Ketogenic diet is obviously indicated in quite a number of brain chemistry or brain health situations. It also seems to be very helpful with respect to cancer. But so far, we haven't seen much evidence of it being helpful with more general organic conditions. I think I'm going to change the title of this thread to reflect what we have learned.
It seems to be useful to get the fat-burning system up and running and training the body to go for longer periods of time without food. But as a permanent state, I have never read of any culture which maintained this. Interesting also that most peoples lives are in high-stress environments, so evolutionary arguments may not even apply.Laura said:
The neurological benefit of ketones is something I find interesting. Like, why does a ketogenic diet work so well for neurological conditions? Is it any inherent benefit of ketones themselves, or is it simply that nervous system cells lose their ability to use carbohydrate? So far it seems that both are applicable. But one point that may help to explain why the most profound benefits from ketogenic diets are neurological is vitamin B1.
Beta-oxidation of fatty acids spares vitamin B1, and carbohydrate metabolism uses twice as much vitamin B1. A lack of B1 affects the nervous system in the most severe of cases. I would hazard a guess that in some cases, B1 insufficiency underlies neurological metabolic defects.
But in any case, it is impossible to do guesswork. It could be any number of things. This is why I am shifting toward a functional approach more and more these days. It takes a while to learn, but seems to save time, money, and unnecessary suffering for a small initial investment.
Fluffy
Dagobah Resident
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Apparently people who smoke should not fast for more than 5 days.
On day six of my last water fast I read some information saying that our bodies will begin to use the ingredients of cigarette as nutrients. So I quit my fast immediately. I was feeling pretty sick in this particular fast, lots of kidney and loin pain and I really wanted to go for longer, I'm now wanting to quit smokes just so I can do an even longer healing fast.
Anything that can be tasted (even strong smells) can stop the body from going into proper fasting mode as it signals to the brain that food is coming and preparation for that happens even if no food comes.
Not sure about smokes anymore.... people who smoke will not be considered viable for inmate fasting programs because of the risk factors.
I don't know what's in my 'organic' smokes but I know that when I'm fasting and not using anything but distilled water for cleaning and drinking that I'm not doing myself any favours by continuing to smoke when my whole reason to fast is healing and detoxing.
Gaby said:
Apparently people who smoke should not fast for more than 5 days.
On day six of my last water fast I read some information saying that our bodies will begin to use the ingredients of cigarette as nutrients. So I quit my fast immediately. I was feeling pretty sick in this particular fast, lots of kidney and loin pain and I really wanted to go for longer, I'm now wanting to quit smokes just so I can do an even longer healing fast.
Anything that can be tasted (even strong smells) can stop the body from going into proper fasting mode as it signals to the brain that food is coming and preparation for that happens even if no food comes.
Not sure about smokes anymore.... people who smoke will not be considered viable for inmate fasting programs because of the risk factors.
I don't know what's in my 'organic' smokes but I know that when I'm fasting and not using anything but distilled water for cleaning and drinking that I'm not doing myself any favours by continuing to smoke when my whole reason to fast is healing and detoxing.
Fluffy
Dagobah Resident
Sorry if this has been posted. I haven't seen it here but might have overlooked it. It's a good one for people who are new to fasting. I'm right into the Hygenic System, find it extremely compelling, although, I'm yet to see a hygienist who is not a vegetarian.....
Dr. André Kruger, “The Fast Doctor”, is the manager of the Hoogland Health Hydro, a fasting retreat in South Africa. After the Hydro was established in 1976, Dr. Kruger went to medical school to better serve its guests. As a complementary health practitioner, his philosophy of medical practice is a synthesis of both orthodox and alternative medicine. After spending many years researching the mechanisms that unlock the body’s natural healing ability, Dr. Kruger concluded that true wellness can only be achieved by getting rid of what makes us unwell. He found that fasting with water is the most effective way to do so. Using an “active” approach to fasting that eliminates toxins through sweating, Dr. Kruger helps people to adjust their lifestyle habits and support the body’s innate ability to heal itself. Join us with Dr. Andre Kruger, the author of Health Won, as we explore the details and health benefits of active fasting.
https://youtu.be/BwQYyQaQUuQ
It goes for about an hour.
Dr. André Kruger, “The Fast Doctor”, is the manager of the Hoogland Health Hydro, a fasting retreat in South Africa. After the Hydro was established in 1976, Dr. Kruger went to medical school to better serve its guests. As a complementary health practitioner, his philosophy of medical practice is a synthesis of both orthodox and alternative medicine. After spending many years researching the mechanisms that unlock the body’s natural healing ability, Dr. Kruger concluded that true wellness can only be achieved by getting rid of what makes us unwell. He found that fasting with water is the most effective way to do so. Using an “active” approach to fasting that eliminates toxins through sweating, Dr. Kruger helps people to adjust their lifestyle habits and support the body’s innate ability to heal itself. Join us with Dr. Andre Kruger, the author of Health Won, as we explore the details and health benefits of active fasting.
https://youtu.be/BwQYyQaQUuQ
It goes for about an hour.
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Gaby, thanks for abbreviating those podcasts.
Intresting to hear how D'Agostino has used DCA for cancer patients. Andrew Scarborough (brain cancer survivor) wrote in his recent blogpost about DCA also. Although he himself did not use DCA, the research he cites looks quite promising.
https://mybraincancerstory.blogspot.fi/2017/08/dca-and-glioma.html
Puredca.com seems to be the only(?) supplier of DCA, that stresses the need of:
1) B1 (Thiamine) vitamin supplementation to counter DCA's possible side-effect of neuropathy.
2) in brain cancers, it it absolutely paramount to avoid coffee and caffeine in general (teas, cocoa, energy drinks, etc.), otherwise you could risk serious side effects.
(Puredca has doctors in their team and they answer any questions promptly when emailing them, e.g. on individualised dosing, etc. In my exprience they have impeccable customer service.)
DCA could really be one of the "game changers" when it comes to cancer.
I listened to sigma nutrition's podcast, where they interviewed Chad Macias.
http://sigmanutrition.com/episode169/
Macias was actually highly critical of the research done by D'Agostino. He very convincingly discussed the shortcomings of the research, and he brought up the fact that treating cancer with diets is not so clear cut. There are cancers that apparently can use ketones/ fatty acids as their fuel. Furthermore, these tumors can actually worsen on ketogenic diet, and will methastasize more easily. The examples included e.g. breast cancer, and it was surprising to hear that certain brain cancers (astrocytomas) can use ketones as their fuel. :/
Macias also mentioned that Dr. Atkins admitted of not gaining success in cancer treatment with ketogenic diets.
I remember late Dr. Nick Gonzales also mentioning this (he knew Atkins).
I found a video where he discusses this:
Gonzalez and his colleagues put cancer patients on individualized diets, some people would eat a more meat based diet, others more plant based diet, etc. In their opinion too, there was not a single "cancer diet" that fit everybody.
I guess it is not so clear cut, but maybe it would be best to eat low-ish carb diet with fruit and vegetables, paying attention to avoid the ones with high glygemic index/ load values (taking into consideration one's activity levels). And of course do time restricted eating, occasional fasts, etc...
In cancer, along with "clean" eating and other various approaches, my understanding is that the psychological issues probably play a major part (stress, unresolved issues, etc.) as well, so these should also be looked at.
Gaby said:
Gaby, thanks for abbreviating those podcasts.
Intresting to hear how D'Agostino has used DCA for cancer patients. Andrew Scarborough (brain cancer survivor) wrote in his recent blogpost about DCA also. Although he himself did not use DCA, the research he cites looks quite promising.
https://mybraincancerstory.blogspot.fi/2017/08/dca-and-glioma.html
Puredca.com seems to be the only(?) supplier of DCA, that stresses the need of:
1) B1 (Thiamine) vitamin supplementation to counter DCA's possible side-effect of neuropathy.
2) in brain cancers, it it absolutely paramount to avoid coffee and caffeine in general (teas, cocoa, energy drinks, etc.), otherwise you could risk serious side effects.
(Puredca has doctors in their team and they answer any questions promptly when emailing them, e.g. on individualised dosing, etc. In my exprience they have impeccable customer service.)
DCA could really be one of the "game changers" when it comes to cancer.
I listened to sigma nutrition's podcast, where they interviewed Chad Macias.
http://sigmanutrition.com/episode169/
Macias was actually highly critical of the research done by D'Agostino. He very convincingly discussed the shortcomings of the research, and he brought up the fact that treating cancer with diets is not so clear cut. There are cancers that apparently can use ketones/ fatty acids as their fuel. Furthermore, these tumors can actually worsen on ketogenic diet, and will methastasize more easily. The examples included e.g. breast cancer, and it was surprising to hear that certain brain cancers (astrocytomas) can use ketones as their fuel. :/
Macias also mentioned that Dr. Atkins admitted of not gaining success in cancer treatment with ketogenic diets.
I remember late Dr. Nick Gonzales also mentioning this (he knew Atkins).
I found a video where he discusses this:
Gonzalez and his colleagues put cancer patients on individualized diets, some people would eat a more meat based diet, others more plant based diet, etc. In their opinion too, there was not a single "cancer diet" that fit everybody.
I guess it is not so clear cut, but maybe it would be best to eat low-ish carb diet with fruit and vegetables, paying attention to avoid the ones with high glygemic index/ load values (taking into consideration one's activity levels). And of course do time restricted eating, occasional fasts, etc...
In cancer, along with "clean" eating and other various approaches, my understanding is that the psychological issues probably play a major part (stress, unresolved issues, etc.) as well, so these should also be looked at.
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?
Although I haven't heard this interview, it is the third time I come across this research. First time around was in this forum, someone quoted something specifically. Then it was a podcast with a research doctor. The host suggested that he should do a podcast with D'Agostino so the two of them can discuss. But D'Agostino himself clarifies that the keto diet is NOT for all cancers, i.e. breast and prostrate cancer, and several others.
I think it makes sense. If there are genetic polymorphisms that make the keto diet dangerous and completely contraindicated for some folk, one should expect tumors with genetic polymorphisms behaving on unexpected ways (cancer grows instead of shrinking).
In general, I think the concept of intermittent fasting is more important. A person can do it on a more and less wholesome diet with natural food sources and stay safe that way.
Yeah, and it goes hand in hand with each person's belief system.
I'll download the podcast you quote to learn about the arguments and to see if they have cases referenced. Let us know if you find something else.
hiker said:
Although I haven't heard this interview, it is the third time I come across this research. First time around was in this forum, someone quoted something specifically. Then it was a podcast with a research doctor. The host suggested that he should do a podcast with D'Agostino so the two of them can discuss. But D'Agostino himself clarifies that the keto diet is NOT for all cancers, i.e. breast and prostrate cancer, and several others.
I think it makes sense. If there are genetic polymorphisms that make the keto diet dangerous and completely contraindicated for some folk, one should expect tumors with genetic polymorphisms behaving on unexpected ways (cancer grows instead of shrinking).
In general, I think the concept of intermittent fasting is more important. A person can do it on a more and less wholesome diet with natural food sources and stay safe that way.
Yeah, and it goes hand in hand with each person's belief system.
I'll download the podcast you quote to learn about the arguments and to see if they have cases referenced. Let us know if you find something else.
