Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

naorma

Jedi Master
Hey everyone,
Y'all will probably be of help in my current quest :

I've been experiencing the keto diet for some months now, the fatbomb custard recipe for some weeks and have read The Diet Research of the Sott.net Forum as well as Keto-Adapted, to learn more about it.

I'm naturally thin so the losing weight aspect doesn't really concern me, it would quite be the opposite.
What interest me most are its benefits (physical/mental/spiritual) and that it seems to be the "proper way" of eating.
But I still keep in mind that it is "for certain conditions".

At this point, I haven't exactly understood which are these "certain conditions" yet.
As I read from the C's that adapting the diet can also be very individual and that some people should add some root vegetables or berries, my questions are the following...

How knowing if I am among those who should add these latters or not ?
And what are these Certain Conditions referred to in the topic's title ?
Would you have, please, some links and infos redirecting to their knowledge ?

Thank you very much!
Hi Elt! I cannot answer most of your questions, but can tell you my experiences. I am on keto-diet since 2014 (it was more or less the slow way and it took some time to get rid of the feeling that I needed some carbs).

What made me feel more sure that this is the right way for me was when I was visiting a lady who does craniosacral healing. I have been there often and she has a good feeling of what my body needs. When I told her - just by the way - that I had changed my way of eating she tested it and said, "well that is good for you".

Due to my experience after a while your body tells you what he needs. For instance I very often want to eat lard and add a lot of them sometimes, I nearly have cancelled butter, because my body cannot use it (at least thats my feeling, he likes lard and in a way I fell like my stomach is absorbing it immediately and is happy ;-D!. But I also eat salad from time to time (very seldom), tomatoes and mostly raw vegetables. I dislike very much carrots and any kind of beets. I feel tired and discomfortable then. Also having eaten 15 small strawberries or blueberries (wild ones) I feel satisfied for a whole year.

Generally I feel lighter (in body as well as in mind) with that way of eating.
 

ELT

The Force is Strong With This One
Hi Elt! I cannot answer most of your questions, but can tell you my experiences. I am on keto-diet since 2014 (it was more or less the slow way and it took some time to get rid of the feeling that I needed some carbs).

What made me feel more sure that this is the right way for me was when I was visiting a lady who does craniosacral healing. I have been there often and she has a good feeling of what my body needs. When I told her - just by the way - that I had changed my way of eating she tested it and said, "well that is good for you".

Due to my experience after a while your body tells you what he needs. For instance I very often want to eat lard and add a lot of them sometimes, I nearly have cancelled butter, because my body cannot use it (at least thats my feeling, he likes lard and in a way I fell like my stomach is absorbing it immediately and is happy ;-D!. But I also eat salad from time to time (very seldom), tomatoes and mostly raw vegetables. I dislike very much carrots and any kind of beets. I feel tired and discomfortable then. Also having eaten 15 small strawberries or blueberries (wild ones) I feel satisfied for a whole year.

Generally I feel lighter (in body as well as in mind) with that way of eating.
You told me being satisfied by this way of eating, which is the essential. I'm very glad you are !

But you might as well be interested by this info if not already known.
I once read about the digestion of raw vegetables in this sott article :

"[...]
At first, all our food, whether from animal or vegetable sources, was eaten raw. Now cooking food has become a way of life. Most people in Western society today would not eat uncooked meat. Indeed, as possible pathogens would not be killed, it may be unwise to eat raw meat. But, while boiling parallels the first stages of digestion, and may be helpful in that process, over-cooking in a way that chars food can present the digestive processes with food which it has great difficulty digesting.

In 1838, in Canada, Dr. William Beaumont performed a remarkable series of experiments on a man named Alexis St. Martin. St. Martin had an opening in the front wall of his stomach from a gunshot wound. Even after the wound had healed, there remained a small opening through which the mucous membrane of his stomach could be seen and, through which, substances could be introduced into the stomach or removed from it. Dr. Beaumont was able to introduce foodstuffs through the opening and observe the rate of digestion. By so doing, he found that raw beef digested in two hours, well done boiled beef in three hours but well done roast beef took four hours. Similarly, raw eggs were digested in one-and-a-half hours but hard-boiled eggs took three-and-a-half hours.

In contrast, the cellulose which envelops cereal grains and which is the major constituent of vegetable cell walls, cannot be broken down by the digestive juices at all. They are ruptured only by the process of cooking. Cooking is also the only means of breaking down the large starch molecules so that we can digest them. As a consequence, cereals and many other vegetables need not only to be cooked, but well cooked, before they can be digested. [...]"
 

thewoman

The Force is Strong With This One
Hey everyone,
Y'all will probably be of help in my current quest :

I've been experiencing the keto diet for some months now, the fatbomb custard recipe for some weeks and have read The Diet Research of the Sott.net Forum as well as Keto-Adapted, to learn more about it.

I'm naturally thin so the losing weight aspect doesn't really concern me, it would quite be the opposite.
What interest me most are its benefits (physical/mental/spiritual) and that it seems to be the "proper way" of eating.
But I still keep in mind that it is "for certain conditions".

At this point, I haven't exactly understood which are these "certain conditions" yet.
As I read from the C's that adapting the diet can also be very individual and that some people should add some root vegetables or berries, my questions are the following...

How knowing if I am among those who should add these latters or not ?
And what are these Certain Conditions referred to in the topic's title ?
Would you have, please, some links and infos redirecting to their knowledge ?

Thank you very much!
this is pretty much where i am as well. i need to gain weight....a lot of weight and that is my biggest concern. i know one thing is not right for everybody and trying to determine what IS right for me is confusing and keeps me in a "should/shouldn't" loop. i want to enjoy eating. it should be pleasurable. this strict carnivore is not. in fact, i dread having to eat. this is my dilemma. i've received some good advice here and i appreciate the many who have replied and liked. we are all here to learn from each other. it's tough to discern the difference b/t what my ego wants and what my intuition is guiding me to.
 

ELT

The Force is Strong With This One
this is pretty much where i am as well. i need to gain weight....a lot of weight and that is my biggest concern. i know one thing is not right for everybody and trying to determine what IS right for me is confusing and keeps me in a "should/shouldn't" loop. i want to enjoy eating. it should be pleasurable. this strict carnivore is not. in fact, i dread having to eat. this is my dilemma. i've received some good advice here and i appreciate the many who have replied and liked. we are all here to learn from each other. it's tough to discern the difference b/t what my ego wants and what my intuition is guiding me to.
Such is the Work indeed🚀
 

ELT

The Force is Strong With This One
I come back answering to myself as I found a glimpse of info in this post, extracted from Primal Body, Primal Mind :
Page 119

Having said this, it is important to note that there are four possible types of people for whom a state of ketosis is potentially questionable: (1) people with uncontrolled type 1 diabetes (ketoacidosis—a very different, more serious condition of particular concern under certain conditions—is often confused with ketosis), (2) people with renal disease (maybe, depending), (3) people who are pregnant (if they are unaccustomed to being in a state of ketosis), and (4) people who sell diet drugs.
 

Andrey

Padawan Learner
Sorry if this has been mentioned already on here but should aI focus primarily on unsaturated fats while planning meals? It’s supposed to be the “good” fats according to google but wanted to ask you guys..
 

Andrey

Padawan Learner
Yes - primarily saturated fats, some mono-unsaturated fats (like olive oil), but avoid poly-unsaturated fats as much as you can.
No, I think you want to aim for saturated fats from animals.

Wow interesting. From the little research I’ve been doing, I was under the impression that eating only unsaturated fats is the way to go. Most of the articles about keto on google are saying unsaturated fats are the “healthy” fats and saturated fats are bad.

Could you please share some resources or literature where I can learn more about this (saturated vs unsaturated)? Or which threads I can look through regarding this because this is quite shocking to me right now that saturated fats are healthier than unsaturated.

I thought I was being overly paranoid about not trusting google results but looks like my intuition was on point.
 

Andrey

Padawan Learner
Why is saturated fats from animals healthier than unsaturated fats?

Why are monounsaturated fats better than polyunsaturated fats?
 

Kay Kim

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Wow interesting. From the little research I’ve been doing, I was under the impression that eating only unsaturated fats is the way to go. Most of the articles about keto on google are saying unsaturated fats are the “healthy” fats and saturated fats are bad.

Could you please share some resources or literature where I can learn more about this (saturated vs unsaturated)? Or which threads I can look through regarding this because this is quite shocking to me right now that saturated fats are healthier than unsaturated.

This link is from Laura posted,
“More on our desperate need for good fats:“

And I hope some of informations from Cs may help you to understand better.

“January 3rd 2009
Q: (___) What about the diet I'm eating now: mostly fruits and vegetables and a little bit of meat?

A: More protein needed for amino acids of a natural and balanced type.

Q: (____) So that means the amino acid supplements I'm taking aren't good?

A: Stop and eat meat. Your type needs the highest level and quality of protein.

Q: (_____) But I don't like meat! (C) You used to! (J) You do like meat. (____) No I don't!

A: Many of your current ideas and preferences may not be "yours."

Q: (A****) We all kind of knew that...

A: Do not underestimate the opposition.

October 24th 2009

Q: (DD) Okay, I can do that. Is there any nutrient that I'm seriously deficient in?

A: Not in particular. It is mostly inflammation.

Q: (DD) Inflammation of the esophageal sphincter?

A: Body.

Q: (DD) Huh. And how would one reduce the inflammation? (L) That's what the diet's for. (DD) No quick fix. (Joe) Gotta be strict, DD! No cheatin'! (L) It takes six months to really get inflammation under control. It really does. Or longer. It took longer for me. It'll probably be shorter for you. (DD) Is gluten the source of that inflammation?

A: Mainly. Also dairy.

Q: (Joe) DD, DD, DD! What have we been telling you? (DD) Does goat and sheep derived milk products constitute dairy?

A: Yes.

Q: (DD) Okay, I'm all done. Thank you very much. (L) Have you been having goat and sheep products? (DD) I've stayed away from the vache, but yeah, I still have a little bit of brebis or... (L) You'll never get rid of it if you keep having it. (DD) Okay, well that's what I needed to know. That answered a whole lot of my questions.

July 24, 1999

A: The potential for food poisoning requires greatly increased awareness on your part. Remember, this is a perfect modus of attack. Wash hands often, be very careful with what you ingest.

Q: (L) I double washed the greens in the salad, the meat was fresh from the deli...

A: Deli meats? In this era: verboten!!!

Q: (L) I guess I have to cook everything myself. No more prepared foods.

A: There is currently a huge problem there. But why? Ignorance feeds opportunity for experimentation. If ever needed, many could be eliminated this way. After all, how ignorant the populace
 

Andrey

Padawan Learner
Thanks for providing the relevant materials. What do you guys make of articles like this (quoted below) that promote eating unsaturated fats? I am not good at decoding scientific studies (yet) so just wanted to throw this article into the thread to find out what's wrong with it and why. For example, the general consensus is that unsaturated fats reduce bad cholesterol and articles like these keep using the words "research has shown" or "researchers say" etc. What are these researches and who are these researchers and why are their studies cited while scientific studies cited in SOTT articles are not mentioned in mainstream articles?

I am in the beginning stages of learning process and though I trust SOTT and this forum way more than most places, I wanted to still keep an open mind as much as possible in order to reach some level of objectivity for the sake of the learning process rather than blindly trusting something just because it fits into my subjective worldview. So when I read articles like the one below along with something from SOTT, I am left wondering who is really right and what do I need to learn in order to reach an informed conclusion based on my own independent research. Laura's material, the cassiopaea.org website, the transcripts, this forum, SOTT, QFG, FOTCM and various other sites and books offer many clues on how to learn and see truth which I am slowly putting together.

I think some of you guys dissecting the article below for me and explaining why the SOTT articles are better (IF they are better, which I think they are but again I don't know for sure) would give me some clues and threads to follow up on to improve my learning process. I hope I have conveyed what I am going through. I'm SO new to all this so please bear with me. Thanks.

Heart-Healthy Fats — It’s the Type—Not the Amount—That Matters
By Jill Weisenberger, MS, RD, CDE
Today’s Dietitian
Vol. 15 No. 9 P. 14


Do your clients and patients remember when fat was considered bad in the 1980s? Fortunately, the once-common recommendation to eat nothing but low-fat foods and fat-free snacks has fallen away. Today, nutrition professionals are telling their clients to eat more foods with heart-healthy fats, such as nuts and olives.

When Carol Plotkin, MS, RD, CDN, ACSM, a health and fitness specialist who owns On Nutrition in Rochester, New York, works with clients who want to steer clear of fat, she shows them the benefits of eating fats in moderation. “They’re happy to learn that fats help us absorb some nutrients and that they increase satiety. They’re almost surprised and relieved that some fats are protective of the heart,” she says.

In recent years, scientists and health care professionals have developed a clearer understanding that the types of fat, rather than the amount consumed, can positively affect cardiovascular disease risk.1 High saturated fat intake is associated with higher levels of both total cholesterol and LDL cholesterol, both of which are risk factors for cardiovascular disease (CVD). Research also links trans fats to an increased risk of CVD.2 On the other hand, unsaturated fats, both monounsaturated and polyunsaturated, have cardioprotective effects.

Replacing One Type of Fat With Another
On average, saturated fat contributes 11% of total calories to the diet, which is higher than the 7% to 10% that’s recommended.2 “The current recommendations are to replace saturated fatty acids with unsaturated fat,” says Penny Kris-Etherton, PhD, RD, a distinguished professor of nutrition at Penn State University.

Monounsaturated Fats
Monounsaturated fatty acids, also known as omega-9 fatty acids, do a great deal to protect the heart, says Leah Gillingham, PhD, of the Richardson Centre for Functional Foods and Nutraceuticals at the University of Manitoba in Canada. A 2011 review published in Annals of Nutrition and Metabolism shows that monounsaturated fatty acids are associated with a slight yet significant effect on both systolic and diastolic blood pressure compared with a diet low in monounsaturated fatty acids.3 They also appear to improve insulin sensitivity when they replace either saturated fatty acids or carbohydrate in the diets of both healthy and insulin-resistant individuals, Gillingham says. The effects of monounsaturated fatty acids on lipids vary (see table below).

When monounsaturated fatty acids replace saturated fatty acids, LDL and total cholesterol drop by 6% to 10%. There’s no effect on HDL cholesterol, although monounsaturated fatty acids favorably reduce the total cholesterol to HDL cholesterol ratio. Both HDL and triglyceride levels improve, however, when monounsaturated fatty acids replace carbohydrate.

Emerging research also suggests that monounsaturated fatty acids can cause a notable reduction in abdominal fat. In a study presented at the American Heart Association’s (AHA) 2013 Scientific Sessions in New Orleans, subjects who consumed a daily smoothie high in monounsaturated fat (from high oleic canola oil as well as traditional canola oil) for four weeks as part of a weight maintenance heart-healthy diet found their abdominal fat decreased by 1.6%. Abdominal fat was unchanged in those consuming a smoothie low in monounsaturated fats.4

Polyunsaturated Fats
Polyunsaturated fatty acids include both omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids. “Polyunsaturated fats decrease LDL and total cholesterol 8% to 12% when compared with saturated fatty acids,” Gillingham says. Consuming EPA and DHA, the long-chain omega-3 fatty acids found in cold-water fish, can improve blood triglyceride and HDL cholesterol levels, she says. Alpha-linolenic acid (ALA), the short-chain omega-3 fatty acid found in some plants, as well as the two long-chain omega-3 fatty acids have beneficial effects on blood pressure and insulin sensitivity, she says.

The AHA recommends eating oily fish at least twice per week to obtain EPA and DHA and to regularly consume oils, walnuts, and other foods rich in ALA.5 Unfortunately, Americans consume, on average, one fish meal every 10 days, and it includes fish sticks and fried fish, which typically are low in omega-3 fats. Omega-3 fatty acids comprise only about 10% of total polyunsaturated fat intake. The majority of omega-3 intake comes from plant-sourced ALA, but Americans need more from EPA and DHA, Gillingham says.

Research shows that omega-6 fatty acids also may be cardioprotective. Some consumers and health professionals have expressed concern about consuming too much omega-6 fatty acids for fear of disrupting the omega-6 to omega-3 ratio, but many experts now say not to worry. Though it was once believed that omega-6 fatty acids increased arachidonic acid, the precursor to inflammatory compounds, researchers have found this isn’t true, Kris-Etherton says.

In 2009, the AHA published a science advisory about omega-6 fatty acids and the risk of CVD.6 It stated that although increasing omega-3 fats reduces the risk of coronary heart disease (CHD), it doesn’t follow that decreasing omega-6 fats will do the same. Researchers concluded that consuming 5% to 10% of calories from omega-6 fatty acids reduces CHD risk. Currently, Americans consume, on average, 7% of calories from omega-6 fatty acids.7 To recommend Americans lower their intake further would more likely increase rather than decrease CHD risk. Reinforcing this position is the report of the 2008 joint meeting of the Food and Agricultural Organization (FAO) of the United Nations and the World Health Organization (WHO) on fats and fatty acids on human health. The report concluded there’s no rationale for a specific ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 fatty acids and that an appropriate intake of omega-6 fats is 2.5% to 9% of energy.8

Omega-6 fatty acids slightly lower HDL cholesterol, Gillingham says. However, the substantial improvement in total and LDL cholesterol more than offsets this effect, resulting in a favorable reduction in the total cholesterol to HDL cholesterol ratio compared with saturated fatty acids, Gillingham says.

Regardless of the statements made by the AHA, the FAO, and WHO, many people still question these findings and believe that omega-6 fatty acids should be reduced because they compete with omega-3 fatty acids for the same enzymes, leading to the development of either proinflammatory or anti-inflammatory compounds. “A recent reanalysis of the Sydney Diet Heart Study revealed that intakes of omega-6 fatty acids at 15% of energy resulted in an increase in the rates of death from all causes, coronary heart disease, and cardiovascular disease among men with a recent coronary event,” Gillingham explains.

Since current American intakes of omega-6 fatty acids are 7% of calories and within dietary guidelines, the focus should be on increasing omega-3 fatty acids, especially EPA and DHA, which would inevitably result in a decrease in the omega-6 to omega-3 ratio, she adds.

Teaching Clients
According to the International Food Information Council Foundation (IFIC) 2013 Food and Health Survey,9 78% of Americans said they’re interested in learning about what to eat rather than what not to eat. Only 16% of respondents disagreed. Moreover, according to the IFIC, appropriate messages are actionable, positive, and empowering, and they encourage consumers to make their own choices. The following are some examples:

• Eat fatty fish at least twice weekly.

• Snack on a handful of nuts instead of sweets.

• Add texture and creaminess to a sandwich with avocado.

• When baking, replace 1/4 cup of butter with 3 T of olive or canola oil.

• Substitute all or one-half of the butter in your recipe with canola oil.

• Check ingredient lists for canola, sunflower, soybean, or olive oils. Choose these over partially hydrogenated oils.

Plotkin frequently describes healthful eating by showing her patients the Mediterranean Diet Pyramid, which includes healthful fats in the form of olive oil, nuts, and fatty fish. Emphasizing that portion sizes are important, she shows her patients prepackaged nuts to demonstrate a proper amount. Moreover, she encourages them to sauté their food in small amounts of cooking oil and add additional moisture, if necessary, with broth.

— Jill Weisenberger, MS, RD, CDE, is a freelance writer and a nutrition and diabetes consultant to the food industry, including Omega-9 Oils and Good Fats 101. She has a private practice in Newport News, Virginia, and is the author of Diabetes Weight Loss — Week by Week.



Resources
American Heart Association Fats 101 has a simple Q & A section that includes responses to questions such as “Can fats be part of a healthy diet?” The site makes it easy to learn more about the Fats Family, the various types of fats depicted as Bad Fats Brothers and the Better Fats Sisters. Visit www.heart.org/HEARTORG/GettingHealthy/FatsAndOils/Fats101/Fats-101_UCM_304494_Article.jsp.

Good Fats 101 (www.goodfats101.com) is an unbranded website powered by Dow AgroSciences Omega-9 Oils. It features recipes and various tools, including a shopping list, label-reading guide, fact sheets, and a chart identifying the sources and properties of omega-3, -6, and -9 fatty acids.

Oldways (http://oldwayspt.org) is a nonprofit food and nutrition education organization. You’ll find downloadable handouts, including the Mediterranean Diet Pyramid, “12 Great Ways to Use Avocados,” “12 Great Ways to Use Peanuts and Peanut Butter,” and more. In addition, the site provides heart-healthy Mediterranean-style recipes.

Commodity boards such as the following offer various handouts, recipes, and other information about healthy fats:

• Almond Board of California (www.almondboard.com)

• California Avocados (www.californiaavocado.com)

• California Ripe Olives (www.calolive.org)

• California Walnut Board (www.walnuts.org)

• Hass Avocado Board (www.avocadocentral.com)

• National Peanut Board (www.nationalpeanutboard.org)

— JW



References
1. US Department of Agriculture, US Department of Health and Human Services. Dietary Guidelines for Americans, 2010. 7th ed. Washington, DC: US Government Printing Office; 2010:24.

2. US Department of Agriculture, US Department of Health and Human Services. Dietary Guidelines for Americans, 2010. 7th ed. Washington, DC: US Government Printing Office; 2010:25.

3. Schwingshackl L, Strasser B, Hoffmann G. Effects of monounsaturated fatty acids on cardiovascular risk factors: a systematic review and meta-analysis. Ann Nutr Metab. 2011;59(2-4):176-186.

4. Liu X. Effects of canola oil and high oleic canola oil-rich diets on abdominal fat mass in individuals at risk for metabolic syndrome. Paper presented at: American Heart Association’s EPI/NPAM 2013 Scientific Sessions; March 21, 2013; New Orleans, LA.

5. Kris-Etherton PM, Harris WS, Appel LJ. Fish consumption, fish oil, omega-3 fatty acids, and cardiovascular disease. Circulation. 2002;106(21):2747-2757.

6. Harris WS, Mozaffarian D, Rimm E. Omega-6 fatty acids and risk for cardiovascular disease: a science advisory from the American Heart Association nutrition subcommittee of the Council of Nutrition, Physical Activity, and Metabolism; Council on Cardiovascular Nursing; and Council on Epidemiology and Prevention. Circulation. 2009;119:902-907.

7. Moshfegh A, Goldman J, Cleveland L. What We Eat in America: NHANES 2001–2002: Usual Nutrient Intakes From Food Compared to Dietary Reference Intakes. Beltsville, MD: US Department of Agriculture, Agricultural Research Service; 2005.

8. Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations. Fats and Fatty Acids in Human Nutrition: Report of an Expert Consultation: 2010. Geneva, France: Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations; 2010.

9. International Food Information Council Foundation. 2013 Food & Health Survey: Consumer Attitudes Toward Food Safety, Nutrition & Health. Washington, DC: International Food Information Council Foundation; 2013.
 

nicklebleu

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Well, first thing to note is that saturated fats may in some increase some fraction of cholesterol, the thing is - who cares!

Cholesterol is not the bogeyman you may have been led to believe it is. There is for instance no correlation between patients admitted to ED with acute myocardial infarction (heart attack) and their level of cholesterol - if the hypothesis were true that cholesterol causes heart disease, the result would be skewed towards high cholesterol. Cholesterol is (mostly - with the exception of some genetic variants) a sign of inflammation, the attempt of the body to fix things.

The main issue with PUFA is oxydation - or in another term, they turn ‘rancid’. That is why a lot of those PUFA need to be chemically treated/ processed to be palatable, and to remain so over the (prolonged) shelf life of the product.

Most dieticians are still wed to the old Keysian ‘Lipid Heart Disease Theory’ - this theory has been shown to be incorrect at least 30 years ago, if not longer.
 
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