Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[dugdeep]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

[quote author=dugdeep]
Also, I'm not sure that the "no appetite" thing is a good indication of whether or not one is in ketosis. I still have an appetite. It's not the same as a sugar-burner appetite - that desperate, 'I feel dizzy and need to eat NOW' type of hunger. It's more of a "my belly is empty and it's time to eat" feeling. It can easily be ignored without any stress, but it's still there. Also remember that protein is actually the most satiating macronutrient, not fat (see this Paul Jamminet article for more on that). I'm not saying this is what's happening, but that "never hungry" affect might be coming from higher protein in the diet.

The amount of meat eaten at a protein restricted meal is miniscule compared to what a normal meal would look like - 3 ounces in most cases (that's about 75 grams) in order to keep protein below 25 grams per meal. I've been cutting my pork chops in half for my meals, just to give an idea.

Just FWIW.

I agree with all of the above but am currently beginning to question the idea of protein. The reason for this is because I seem to be satiated with broth and fat alone. While I do feel as if I 'should' eat something, that seems to be more tied to the idea of being used to eating as opposed to drinking all my meals. It's as if I could live almost exclusively off fat at this moment. The amount of actual meat I'm eating for the most part is mainly 1 - 1 1/2 ounce(s), about 6 to 9 teaspoons. This, of course, may depend on individual dietary requirements. While I'll keep experimenting, it's interesting and bizarre that I've been able to to feel full for such a long time (7 hour stretches) on so little. It'll be interesting to see where this goes.
[/quote]

Interesting indeed! I didn't mean to imply that one couldn't feel satiated from fat and broth alone, though. I was only speculating that if one was "never hungry" it might be because of excess protein, simply because I haven't really experienced that myself.

But I'm wondering, truthseeker, when you say you're questioning the idea of protein, are you implying that you think you may not require any protein at all? Because that would really be something! It may be a temporary thing; with all the old cellular material being recycled the body may have enough raw material amino acids to meet all its needs. That would be really cool :)

 

[Gimpy]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Short report on bone broth consumption: I've been having it morning and afternoons, eating a small meal in the evening, and that didn't work very well. So I cut it back to a large soup mug in the morning, and a small evening meal. That worked very well.

Now? The large soup mug of bone broth in the morning is all I really want to eat. It still makes me sleep at least two hours after drinking it, though. I'm thinking of having smaller mugs of broth through out the day, to see what it does next.

The longer I'm drinking broth and not much else, the clearer my thinking becomes. My sister called me yesterday and gave me a room number and a phone number to reach my mother in hospital...and even after writing it down, I could remember it hours later!

That may not seem like much, but I have not had a short term memory to speak of for over ten years, that was the first thing to go with MS in my case.

I'll muster through any amount of physical pain to get my mind back, at the same time, I'm making sure to remain cautious and not get my hopes up. The bar is simple: more 'good days' than 'bad days'.

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I am still intrigued about a possible connection between KD and nicotine. Both are in a sense neuroprotective, at least in regards to certain neurodegenerative diseases, like Alzheimers and Parkinson. Maybe they share a common pathway somewhere, and if - my guess would be in the mitochondrial energy pathways.

Don't have much time at hand at the moment but will have more soon, might dig around a little bit for that, but if anyone has some ideas, that would be terrific!

Or the vagus nerve. :)

A high fat diet activates anti-inflammatory pathways mediated by the vagus nerve and the brain. And nicotine has been used to activate anti-inflammatory pathways of the vagus nerve and the brain.

Good point, Psyche! I'll have a think about that ...

 

[truth seeker]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Interesting indeed! I didn't mean to imply that one couldn't feel satiated from fat and broth alone, though. I was only speculating that if one was "never hungry" it might be because of excess protein, simply because I haven't really experienced that myself.

I think I understood what you were saying, but was just 'thinking' aloud on paper. :P Although, if one doesn't feel hungry (assuming that we're speaking in literal terms as opposed to thinking we should be hungry because we haven't eaten in a while), wouldn't that mean we're adequately fed? I say this because when I was on carbs or even ate too much protein, I would end up feeling hungry sooner. Just guessing but in terms of protein consumption, if one eats too much of it and it essentially is converted to sugar in the body, it would cause us to be hungry more frequently or perhaps I'm misunderstanding something. If I am, please don't hesitate to clarify as I'd like to understand.

But I'm wondering, truthseeker, when you say you're questioning the idea of protein, are you implying that you think you may not require any protein at all? Because that would really be something! It may be a temporary thing; with all the old cellular material being recycled the body may have enough raw material amino acids to meet all its needs. That would be really cool :)

I'm currently not sure but wouldn't be surprised if it did happen. If we're on a journey, that would mean that this 'diet' is constantly evolving and from the time we've been on it, that may well be the case. Imagine how difficult it would have been to go from our initial crap diets directly to the current IF - that would've been quite a feat!

It's as if we needed to start with the buckwheat diet and take baby steps to where we are now so it seems we're moving in small increments towards where we need to go.

With that said, this current adjustment to mainly fat may be temporary in that it allows us to occasionally have more protein. Just going by my own experiences though, I can't currently see going back - every time I attempt to go over my protein limit, there's a histamine reaction. The same reaction I'd have if I ate carbs. That's more than enough to keep me on the straight and narrow for the most part. For what it's worth.

The longer I'm drinking broth and not much else, the clearer my thinking becomes. My sister called me yesterday and gave me a room number and a phone number to reach my mother in hospital...and even after writing it down, I could remember it hours later!

So do you deliver because I'm not experiencing that. :D I'm still waiting for my eyesight to improve!

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I just thought that I'd throw this out for consideration. I've been doing the high fat, very low carb/zero carb ketogenic diet since early spring 2011. I've been eating 2 meals a day since that time -- breakfast and dinner. I'm never hungry. I only get my appetite when I sit down to eat a meal. Could this be another way to check if one is in deep ketosis? I've never used the ketostix to check. But I've been eating anywhere from 70% to 85% of daily calorie intake as fat.

How do you feel, and what kinds of foods are satiating for you? Is your brain working better? Those are the kinds of questions I ask myself. I have never used ketostix -- I could smell the wasted ketones in my urine, in the first weeks.

If you are eating VLC (especially "near zero") and consuming moderate protein, and you are still breathing and walking around and feeling good about doing it and have stable weight, and especially if you are thinking clearly and your body handles exercise well, you must be running on some form of fat and doing it efficiently. If ketone production had not ramped up, I would expect that you would not be feeling all that good.

I can't claim all of these favorable indicators, but my brain is working remarkably better than it was a year ago. While I do encounter some characteristic "brain fault" patterns here in my posts here in the forum from time to time, that is because I post a great deal more than I used to and a certain amount of stuff that I am still working on/with does come through (perhaps more than before, in absolute terms). While I could be wrong, I cannot explain the increased mental capacity without the added ketones. This kind of thing is unprecedented in my life, and impacts my day job positively as well as my personal life. This is not just a matter of going from "normal" to "better," it is a matter of overcoming a severe lifelong pathological limitation.

So if this is another indication of ketosis, I thought others could use this if ketostix are hard to find in their area (they're not that accurate anyway, i.e. showing the right kind of ketones and how much the body is utilizing vs. how much is coming out in the urine, etc.).

One more thing. It gets easier over time to get your fat intake up to 70% to 85% of daily calories. After a while, you can pretty much digest all that fat pretty easily. FWIW.

Not just digest, but utilize. For one thing, over a period of months your brain transitions to much higher levels of ketone vs. glucose fuel, and it is a major energy consumer.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I feel great, Megan. I've felt great since I started this diet a year and a half ago. My mind works great, as well. Until last fall, and even into the early part of 2012, I used to have trouble getting just the right amount of fat. If I went a little too much, I'd get loose stools (light colored and floating, and sometimes "greasy").

I'd back down just a bit and be on my way again. Now, it's not such a fine line anymore, so I try to keep it closer to 85% of calories as fat, rather than closer to 70%. Now that I'm doing alternating days of protein restriction/IF, I feel even better, but the change is very small. I was figuring with my previous post that I should be getting hungry at some point if I was eating too much protein previously and also experience energy crashes if I was getting knocked out of ketosis, because I eat next to no carbs.

Anyway, eating this much fat, you can't really eat all that much protein. You just feel satiated and stop. FWIW.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Another useful tip is to have the bone broth within the hour before you start exercising. At least that is what Volek and Phinney (from Art of Low Carb Eating) found. They say that once you are keto-adapted, your body uses sodium within a matter of hours, and it does help to have some sodium to preserve muscle when you moderate protein consumption.

 

[zim]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

It have been a week since I began the KD, I´ve lost 4 kilos in just one week :/ do I have to eat more fat?

Another thing I´ve saw was that It was my final week before my period ( Today arrived- the period) amazingly without delay and I didn't have any of symptoms I have been feeling the last months, the crazy hormones and my feelings have disappear this week , it is incredible !!! I´ve posted about that in another thread and I was very worry since those symptoms were like I'm beginning the menopause!!!!!

I'll wait If I have good luck as Ailen with no pains during the menstruation :P!!!!

Yesterday I did feel with 0 energy all day and pain in my legs like I was doing a lot of exercises!!! but today I had a huge breakfast full of fat and some meet. I´ve noted that I didn't eat too much to feel very satisfied.

 

[dugdeep]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Interesting indeed! I didn't mean to imply that one couldn't feel satiated from fat and broth alone, though. I was only speculating that if one was "never hungry" it might be because of excess protein, simply because I haven't really experienced that myself.

I think I understood what you were saying, but was just 'thinking' aloud on paper. :P Although, if one doesn't feel hungry (assuming that we're speaking in literal terms as opposed to thinking we should be hungry because we haven't eaten in a while), wouldn't that mean we're adequately fed? I say this because when I was on carbs or even ate too much protein, I would end up feeling hungry sooner. Just guessing but in terms of protein consumption, if one eats too much of it and it essentially is converted to sugar in the body, it would cause us to be hungry more frequently or perhaps I'm misunderstanding something. If I am, please don't hesitate to clarify as I'd like to understand.

No, I think you're understanding it and make a good point. I think what it comes down to is what is meant by "satiation", and I actually think maybe I've been using the term wrong. I think what's meant by satiation when it's said that protein is the most satiating macronutrient is that it makes you feel satisfied sooner, calorically speaking, as opposed to staying satisfied longer. That would explain why people doing high protein can eat fewer calories and still feel satisfied than those on high carb. But that doesn't mean they'll stay satisfied longer. So my whole theory of never feeling hungry because of too much protein may be off

But I'm wondering, truthseeker, when you say you're questioning the idea of protein, are you implying that you think you may not require any protein at all? Because that would really be something! It may be a temporary thing; with all the old cellular material being recycled the body may have enough raw material amino acids to meet all its needs. That would be really cool :)

I'm currently not sure but wouldn't be surprised if it did happen. If we're on a journey, that would mean that this 'diet' is constantly evolving and from the time we've been on it, that may well be the case. Imagine how difficult it would have been to go from our initial crap diets directly to the current IF - that would've been quite a feat!

It's as if we needed to start with the buckwheat diet and take baby steps to where we are now so it seems we're moving in small increments towards where we need to go.
[/quote]

Yes, I've thought about it that way, too. Like when in the more recent C's sessions it was mentioned that veggie consumption wasn't necessary, some people started pulling out old sessions where they had recommended veggies and cried foul. But really, this is what was needed at the time. It's like you said, imagine trying to go from Standard American Diet to high fat low protein zero carb with no transition - disaster for sure! I'm sure that taking things slowly allowed time for the body to adjust, detoxify and may have even allowed for slow genetic changes.

[quote author=truthseeker]
With that said, this current adjustment to mainly fat may be temporary in that it allows us to occasionally have more protein. Just going by my own experiences though, I can't currently see going back - every time I attempt to go over my protein limit, there's a histamine reaction. The same reaction I'd have if I ate carbs. That's more than enough to keep me on the straight and narrow for the most part. For what it's worth.
[/quote]

Well that's something I hadn't thought of. Every time there's a new discovery here on the forum and another shift in the diet happens, I always think to myself "Surely this is it. This is the human diet as it stands. Nothing else to change now." But what you're suggesting is kind of mind-blowing :). (we need an exploding head smiley).

I was out for most of the day today, hanging out with friends and was confronted with less than ideal food options. I decided to get some in-house smoked ham from a deli and just snack on it while my friends did the pizza thing. It was great, but not nearly as much fat as I'm used to and probably ended up going too high in protein. I suffered a stomach ache and bloating because of it. Nothing terrible, but it was clear I'd messed up. The meat itself was clean, to the best of my knowledge, so I really think it was the proportions of protein:fat.

The longer I'm drinking broth and not much else, the clearer my thinking becomes. My sister called me yesterday and gave me a room number and a phone number to reach my mother in hospital...and even after writing it down, I could remember it hours later!

So do you deliver because I'm not experiencing that. :D I'm still waiting for my eyesight to improve!
[/quote]

Me too! That and for my hairline to start "proceding"

 

[HowToBe]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

We've started making bone broth here. We're using a large crock pot. To start out with we've had to use pastured chicken bones (from leg quarters mostly), but we should be able to get some grassfed beef bones in the next week.

For the first attempt, I filled the crock with bones, covered with water, added a splash of cider vinegar (~1-2 tablespoons I'd guess), and let it cook on high for 24 hours. The broth was very cloudy, the cartilage was dissolved, and the bones were easy to break and the ends crumbled off of them, but the broth itself didn't taste good; rather off-putting. Bearable, but certainly not tasty. It was pretty filling however; I noticed my energy seemed very stable after having a cup of it.

So this time I've tried following online recipes more closely, starting by turning the broth to high, bringing it to a mild boil, then turning it to low to simmer. Problem is, our crock pot won't simmer at low, so I've been turning it up to high every now and then, then turning it back down once it gets to boiling. Rather than vinegar I squeezed a lemon into it. The current batch has just hit the 48 hour mark, and tastes much better than the first. I could get used to this! The bones are almost as soft as the ones which were cooked on high for 24 hours. Since they are soft enough I've cut the bones in half now to expose the marrow. I think I'll let the stuff cook one more day.

My question is whether you think it was the vinegar or the high heat that ruined the flavor the first time around? I read what dugdeep said about broth and heat here: http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,28799.msg365041/topicseen.html#msg365041

Also, I'm wondering if "perpetual stock" sound like a good idea? Would the nutrients be too depleted by the end of the week?

So if you’re wondering just how I manage working at home full time, homeschooling our 6-year old with making four and a half gallons of bone broth each week, I’ll tell you. I slow cook it. I call it perpetual soup. You see, my six-quart slowcooker (kinda like this one) is my cauldron. That is, it is always on – bubbling away and ready to nourish my family with the bounty of the bones that stew away every hours of every day.

Once a week, I place the frame of a roast chicken into the slow cooker, cover it with filtered water (We use a Berkey to filter our water, and you can find them online.), toss in a few bay leaves, black peppercorns and vegetable scraps, turn it on and call it good. As I pull broth from the slow cooker, I filter it through a reusable coffee filter which helps to strain out any floating herbs, chicken skin or pieces of bone and results in a beautiful clear broth. As I remove broth, I add water and continue the process throughout the week – ensuring that by the end of the week every bit of goodness has been pulled from that chicken frame.

And, in case you’re worried about the cost of keeping your slow cooker on twenty-four hours a day, every day of the week, the estimated cost of running your slow cooker is about $0.01 to $0.03 per hour – for a total cost of $1.68 to $5.04 for the week. Undoubtedly worth it. Learn more about energy-wise cooking here.

Anyway, looking forward to this new inclusion in our diet! I'm getting quite used to deboning pastured chicken thighs. ;D

 

[Carl]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Yes, I've thought about it that way, too. Like when in the more recent C's sessions it was mentioned that veggie consumption wasn't necessary, some people started pulling out old sessions where they had recommended veggies and cried foul. But really, this is what was needed at the time. It's like you said, imagine trying to go from Standard American Diet to high fat low protein zero carb with no transition - disaster for sure! I'm sure that taking things slowly allowed time for the body to adjust, detoxify and may have even allowed for slow genetic changes.

Indeed, plus free will had to be respected as always, even with something as basic as the fuel for our 3d machines. If they'd just straight up said "Bone Broth(!x7)" then we wouldn't have a 250 page adventure thread packed full of advice for people who want to change their diets.

Also, if we consider eating bad food as being a form of consuming lies and draining our energy to entropic forces, it is a similar process to 'waking up' and how many of us found this forum. I.e. passing through disinformation to gradually clearer sources of truth.

I was out for most of the day today, hanging out with friends and was confronted with less than ideal food options. I decided to get some in-house smoked ham from a deli and just snack on it while my friends did the pizza thing. It was great, but not nearly as much fat as I'm used to and probably ended up going too high in protein. I suffered a stomach ache and bloating because of it. Nothing terrible, but it was clear I'd messed up. The meat itself was clean, to the best of my knowledge, so I really think it was the proportions of protein:fat.

It becomes more and more of a minefield out there with every new discovery, and does make it a difficult path to follow. I think it somewhat ties in with the whole concept of increasing STO polarity, whereby you start to become more incomprehensible to most people. I've just stopped eating full stop when I'm out of the house unless I can bring my own food. Trying to explain to others that eating nothing but fat and a bit of meat is optimal for human health, is just simply impossible.

It's got to the point where I can walk into a massive supermarket and only be able to eat a handful of things there, whereas I used to see it as a big playground of tasty delights!

The emotional component of eating is starting to go away more now. I remember a while ago I was watching my friends devour a box of cookies and my predator was going wild, actually getting almost hysterical knowing that it will never taste that deadly mix of flour and sugar again..

So do you deliver because I'm not experiencing that. :D I'm still waiting for my eyesight to improve!

Me too! That and for my hairline to start "proceding"

And for me to maybe grow a little higher than 5'6! :P

I guess certain 'miraculous' changes like that are off the table for now, but who knows.. I am excited for the future.

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I would suggest NOT using bird bones for the broth. Also, pork and lamb make excellent broth. Beef is NOT the "only game in town" out there, ya know. MOST of our broth is pork based though we do get plenty of beef bones. Sometimes we mix them. Cook with a bit of salt and pepper and, if tolerated, a bit of garlic. I wouldn't cook it on high, but rather on low heat.

Geeze, people, how many times does this have to be repeated?

 

[HowToBe]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I would suggest NOT using bird bones for the broth. Also, pork and lamb make excellent broth. Beef is NOT the "only game in town" out there, ya know. MOST of our broth is pork based though we do get plenty of beef bones. Sometimes we mix them. Cook with a bit of salt and pepper and, if tolerated, a bit of garlic. I wouldn't cook it on high, but rather on low heat.

Geeze, people, how many times does this have to be repeated?

I'm sorry, I still have much to read. I tried to search for the answer myself but didn't manage to find it. So thank you, I'll continue reading.

 

[monotonic]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I was reading LWB and found this:

The counterbalancing hormone to insulin is glucagon. When your blood sugar levels are in free fall and headed for the crash, glucagon's job is to get those levels back up. It does this by stimulating the body to burn its reserves of energy, and it has some help: both adrenaline and cortisol are part of the process. Remember that a blood sugar level out of a narrow range—either too low or too high—is a life- threatening emergency, and it requires emergency measures. Adrenaline prepares you for fight or flight. It forces energy out of storage and cranks up the metabolism in your muscles, getting you ready for action. One of the ways it frees up more energy for your muscles is by shutting down your digestive systems: the presence of adrenaline suppresses the stomach's production of hydrochloric acid.

So it looks like perhaps feeling "too good" and full of energy during carb restriction could be a bad thing too. Best to go slow and not stimulate adrenaline by dropping carbs off a cliff (perhaps dropping 12-24 carbs per week is a good pace minding one's symptoms? Until it comes time for "cold turkey" anyways?). Could adrenaline be another potential source of the "euphoria" experience aside from beta-hydroxybutyrate (BHB)? Interesting that low stomach acid is a result of this.

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I was reading LWB and found this:

The counterbalancing hormone to insulin is glucagon. When your blood sugar levels are in free fall and headed for the crash, glucagon's job is to get those levels back up. It does this by stimulating the body to burn its reserves of energy, and it has some help: both adrenaline and cortisol are part of the process. Remember that a blood sugar level out of a narrow range—either too low or too high—is a life- threatening emergency, and it requires emergency measures. Adrenaline prepares you for fight or flight. It forces energy out of storage and cranks up the metabolism in your muscles, getting you ready for action. One of the ways it frees up more energy for your muscles is by shutting down your digestive systems: the presence of adrenaline suppresses the stomach's production of hydrochloric acid.

So it looks like perhaps feeling "too good" and full of energy during carb restriction could be a bad thing too. Best to go slow and not stimulate adrenaline by dropping carbs off a cliff (perhaps dropping 12-24 carbs per week is a good pace minding one's symptoms? Until it comes time for "cold turkey" anyways?). Could adrenaline be another potential source of the "euphoria" experience aside from beta-hydroxybutyrate (BHB)? Interesting that low stomach acid is a result of this.

Ummm... it seems to me that you are not understanding anything about this system and what they are saying about rises and drops in BLOOD SUGAR.