Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[monotonic]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

If one has a leaky gut, the body will treat molecules leaking from the gut as viruses. Does this include a fever reaction? Could one have a fever reaction if they have a leaky gut?

I just read about gout and uric acid in the LWB thread. It seems that uric acid is what the body uses to cannibalize protein for powering gluconeogenesis. Nucleic acids stimulate the release of uric acid; foods containing a lot of yeast like beer would do this. Is it possible that uric acid also plays a role in apoptosis/autophagy?

Also, it was written without any references or explanation, but one article I read said that glycine is another thing that is used for gluconeogenesis. We know that glycine is in bone broth. Could this be a bad thing? I could not find any information on this.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...Also, it was written without any references or explanation, but one article I read said that glycine is another thing that is used for gluconeogenesis. We know that glycine is in bone broth. Could this be a bad thing? I could not find any information on this.

Gluconeogenisis, like everything in the body, is a regulated process. You don't just swallow glycine and gluconeogenesis starts up in the liver. The substance has to be able to travel to the processing site. Pathway enzymes must be activated and limiting reagents must be available. Glycolysis and gluconeogenesis are interlocked to prevent a "futile cycle." If metabolic processes weren't extremely highly regulated then life would not exist. Have you read anything of Origin of Life: The Fifth Option?

Why would the presence of a nutrient be a bad thing, simply because it can be used for gluconeogenesis? That doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Muxel]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

It was my impression that the citric acid cycle was part of the glucose bias, and the point of fasting was to deplete oxaloacetate so acetyl-CoA cannot go into the citric acid cycle, and would be turned into ketones by the liver instead.

Could one have a fever reaction if they have a leaky gut?

It depends on any number of factors. Let's just say that leaky gut is a bad thing to have.

It seems that uric acid is what the body uses to cannibalize protein for powering gluconeogenesis.

Does it? I didn't know that. Could you cite something for me?

Nucleic acids stimulate the release of uric acid; foods containing a lot of yeast like beer would do this.

It would be more accurate to say that beer consumption is correlated with elevated uric acid levels. And uric acid is a metabolite of purine.

Is it possible that uric acid also plays a role in apoptosis/autophagy?

I don't know.

Also, it was written without any references or explanation, but one article I read said that glycine is another thing that is used for gluconeogenesis.

Glycine is glucogenic in that it can be converted to serine, and from serine to 3-phosphoglycerate (which is an intermediate in glycolysis). If that happens, you may conceivably end up with pyruvate which may conceivably be used for gluconeogenesis. Nevertheless this is not the main metabolic pathway for glycine, and protein restriction should liberate you from this concern.

We know that glycine is in bone broth. Could this be a bad thing?

On the contrary. It is very good. Glycine is a reason bone broth is anti-inflammatory. Might I direct you to these articles from Ray Peat,

Tryptophan, serotonin, and aging

Gelatin, stress, longevity

Ray Peat talks about the deleterious effects of tryptophan and serotonin. He describes glycine as "antiserotonin." He advises us to complement our meat intake with gelatin.

 

[monotonic]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I was thinking, the prevailing idea recently is to reduce consumption of protein that would be converted to glucose. This goes mostly against the finding that GNG only creeps up a little bit and is mostly constant. Maybe I misunderstood, but I'm trying to reconcile these ideas.

You appear to be saying, GNG regulates itself and is not an issue. But for other posters, the GNG thing seems to be sticking.

http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,28799.msg365371.html#msg365371
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,28799.msg365391.html#msg365391

I was not meaning to exclude bone broth entirely, I was just wondering, if GNG is still on the table as an excess carb source, if bone broth could have a similar affect to excess protein. But for all indications, GNG is no object; is this correct? Or are there other ways the body derives energy from protein besides GNG? I was certainly not saying glycine itself is a bad thing, as we know otherwise.

With this eliminated, reasons for restricting protein still include, decreasing digestive load, preventing proteinuria and kidney problems, etc. Furthermore, in the context of IF, it seems protein restriction is used to begin autophagy, and it would seem this is possibly a result of the body expecting protein but not getting it, so it begins recycling and cleaning itself to increase efficiency. On a side note I wonder if this coincides with a uric acid spike, maybe explaining some symptoms. I hope I haven't got this terribly wrong. The 5th Option thread seems interesting, I will look at it.

Here is where I got the ideas about uric acid from:

http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,22916.msg262960.html#msg262960

So, basically, GNG is mostly constant, not everything that CAN be used for GNG WILL be used, right?

It seems the GNG can bar ketogenesis only in mice where it is a major source of carbs as opposed to humans. It also seems GNG is more complex depending on your health circumstances, for instance if you have diabetes it may be affected. I get this from the comments to this article:

http://www.ketotic.org/2012/08/if-you-eat-excess-protein-does-it-turn.html

So I suppose, that one point of getting no excess protein, is that when you feel hungry or need energy, eat fat instead, so you are not relying on what little energy is derived from GNG. This decreases digestive burden, keeps you from getting "rabbit malaise" type symptoms. My understanding based on what has been posted here is that one should not eat more than 20-30g of protein per meal, although I could have misunderstood.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I just thought that I'd throw this out for consideration. I've been doing the high fat, very low carb/zero carb ketogenic diet since early spring 2011. I've been eating 2 meals a day since that time -- breakfast and dinner. I'm never hungry. I only get my appetite when I sit down to eat a meal. Could this be another way to check if one is in deep ketosis? I've never used the ketostix to check. But I've been eating anywhere from 70% to 85% of daily calorie intake as fat.

So if this is another indication of ketosis, I thought others could use this if ketostix are hard to find in their area (they're not that accurate anyway, i.e. showing the right kind of ketones and how much the body is utilizing vs. how much is coming out in the urine, etc.).

One more thing. It gets easier over time to get your fat intake up to 70% to 85% of daily calories. After a while, you can pretty much digest all that fat pretty easily. FWIW.

 

[Muxel]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I was certainly not saying glycine itself is a bad thing, as we know otherwise.

Sorry; I was hasty.

You appear to be saying, GNG regulates itself and is not an issue.

To be precise, what Megan conveyed was: the presence of glycine in bone broth does not imply that it will be used for GNG.

It also seems GNG is more complex depending on your health circumstances, for instance if you have diabetes it may be affected.

Eating protein stimulates glucagon, which stimulates GNG in the liver. Insulin and glucagon are antagonistic to each other. Type 2 diabetics are insulin resistant; their liver will not respond as well to insulin and will overproduce glucose. That's the "official story."


You know, "science" that involves taking a mouse/human at random, feeding them something at random, and observing something at random, frustrates me. The paleo gurus say interesting things, but their sources all sound like "X when given Y showed Z." Everybody has these little pieces of data but no framework, no big equation, to put them in. Everybody has their list of things that fall to the ground when released, but nobody has gravity. IMO we need a more fundamental approach that considers the body as a single system, and we need big equations, and we need to think like the scientists of yore did.

I only get my appetite when I sit down to eat a meal. Could this be another way to check if one is in deep ketosis?

Could be. :) I bet a paleo guru would explain this with studies and leptin and measurements of one tiny aspect of what really is an interrelated mosaic system...

 

[jhonny]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I'm on my 8th day of KD, and I feel pretty good, but the first 4 days, I felt tired and a little anxious. Also, after each bone broth I felt nauseous, now it's over.
My stools are more or less as Laura has described before(short and a bit liquid).
I have to say that I'm drinking bone broth once a day, due to my working hours, so I drink a bowl at 5 or 6 pm, and that's all for my dinner. As breakfast: bacon and eggs, or pork chop or sausages(all with lard, butter and liver paté). As lunch a bit of meat (about 150 gm) and 100 or 150 gr of veggies(lettuce or cucumber).
I'm working out one or two hours a day and I feel my muscles are working fine.

 

[MK Scarlett]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

For the first time I took my first bone broth of the day this morning for breakfast and before eat my piece of pork. It was delicious! The next will be for the beginning of the afternoon and another one on this evening, I now am going on three bone broths per day. I really feel very good, with much energy in body and much focus in thoughts.
And I now am able to make some stuffs I could not do anymore these last years like wash stone floors, unsettle the piping of the bathtub folded in two, etc.
Something I also experimented these last days is I am able to dance without having of side stitch, without being breathless and without feeling of tightness in the collarbone! I did it on last Thursday evening by listening a song (one of my favourites from I am 20 years old, at least to dance!) posted on the Laura's Facebook page - this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oso0ieD8-tI&feature=player_embedded)

All these abilities again, as when I was a young woman makes me wonder we could be on the right way here.

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I am still intrigued about a possible connection between KD and nicotine. Both are in a sense neuroprotective, at least in regards to certain neurodegenerative diseases, like Alzheimers and Parkinson. Maybe they share a common pathway somewhere, and if - my guess would be in the mitochondrial energy pathways.

Don't have much time at hand at the moment but will have more soon, might dig around a little bit for that, but if anyone has some ideas, that would be terrific!

 

[seek10]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I just thought that I'd throw this out for consideration. I've been doing the high fat, very low carb/zero carb ketogenic diet since early spring 2011. I've been eating 2 meals a day since that time -- breakfast and dinner. I'm never hungry. I only get my appetite when I sit down to eat a meal. Could this be another way to check if one is in deep ketosis? I've never used the ketostix to check. But I've been eating anywhere from 70% to 85% of daily calorie intake as fat.

So if this is another indication of ketosis, I thought others could use this if ketostix are hard to find in their area (they're not that accurate anyway, i.e. showing the right kind of ketones and how much the body is utilizing vs. how much is coming out in the urine, etc.).

One more thing. It gets easier over time to get your fat intake up to 70% to 85% of daily calories. After a while, you can pretty much digest all that fat pretty easily. FWIW.

I did the same, I drank more fat , my appetite came down, ate only 2 meals , but my hypo thyroidism issues persisted. Some of the articles points that to not having enough calories and some points to not enough proteins ( I was only taking as per .8 g/kg level or little more). It may be better to start counting rather than the gut feelings drive.

 

[aragorn]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I just thought that I'd throw this out for consideration. I've been doing the high fat, very low carb/zero carb ketogenic diet since early spring 2011. I've been eating 2 meals a day since that time -- breakfast and dinner. I'm never hungry. I only get my appetite when I sit down to eat a meal. Could this be another way to check if one is in deep ketosis? I've never used the ketostix to check. But I've been eating anywhere from 70% to 85% of daily calorie intake as fat.

So if this is another indication of ketosis, I thought others could use this if ketostix are hard to find in their area (they're not that accurate anyway, i.e. showing the right kind of ketones and how much the body is utilizing vs. how much is coming out in the urine, etc.).

One more thing. It gets easier over time to get your fat intake up to 70% to 85% of daily calories. After a while, you can pretty much digest all that fat pretty easily. FWIW.

Yeah, it can be a bumpy ride but luckily things get easier with time. I believe I've been in ketosis since August 2011, and it took me the whole autumn to get things consistent - I had most of the symptoms people are describing here. Even after that I've had ups and downs with energy levels, and I guess I was eating too much protein from time to time. Right now I'm doing pretty good, and at moments I have amazing amounts of energy. I haven't at any point used the keto stix, but I can't imagine not being ketoadapted with my almost zero carbs and high amounts of fat. And I experience the same as you - I never feel hungry, but especially in the morning I sense that my brain needs energy in the form of bacon etc. :)

My guess is that the older you are, the longer it takes to fully adapt.

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I think that it not only takes longer for some people to adapt, to go through the transition, it also takes some time after the mtDNA begins to upregulate, for the many healing processes to be accomplished. Things like thyroid problems, arthritis, MS, Lupus, diabetes, other autoimmune diseases that MIGHT be reversed partly or fully on the ketogenic diet, are going to take time, I think. Once the cellular energy needs are being met, then the body has to undertake the process of killing off and re-processing a whole lot of tissue that is made up of cells with defective and mutated DNA. That cannot happen in a day or even in weeks; it may take months or up to a year or two depending on the severity. Let's face it, we didn't get in these conditions overnight, so we can't expect an overnight cure! Patience and persistence and determination win the prize!

 

[dugdeep]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I just thought that I'd throw this out for consideration. I've been doing the high fat, very low carb/zero carb ketogenic diet since early spring 2011. I've been eating 2 meals a day since that time -- breakfast and dinner. I'm never hungry. I only get my appetite when I sit down to eat a meal. Could this be another way to check if one is in deep ketosis? I've never used the ketostix to check. But I've been eating anywhere from 70% to 85% of daily calorie intake as fat.

So if this is another indication of ketosis, I thought others could use this if ketostix are hard to find in their area (they're not that accurate anyway, i.e. showing the right kind of ketones and how much the body is utilizing vs. how much is coming out in the urine, etc.).

One more thing. It gets easier over time to get your fat intake up to 70% to 85% of daily calories. After a while, you can pretty much digest all that fat pretty easily. FWIW.

Yeah, it can be a bumpy ride but luckily things get easier with time. I believe I've been in ketosis since August 2011, and it took me the whole autumn to get things consistent - I had most of the symptoms people are describing here. Even after that I've had ups and downs with energy levels, and I guess I was eating too much protein from time to time. Right now I'm doing pretty good, and at moments I have amazing amounts of energy. I haven't at any point used the keto stix, but I can't imagine not being ketoadapted with my almost zero carbs and high amounts of fat. And I experience the same as you - I never feel hungry, but especially in the morning I sense that my brain needs energy in the form of bacon etc. :)

My guess is that the older you are, the longer it takes to fully adapt.

Just a word of caution. I don't know if this will apply to either of you, but I thought I'd just give my brief story here so you can reflect whether or not it does.

I've been essentially zero carb for close to a year and a half (I don't remember exactly when I dropped to zero, but it was somewhere around April of 2011). I thought I was in ketosis the whole time - how could I not be? But this most recent change, with the fasting and the protein restriction, made me go through what were clearly ketoadaptation symptoms. In other words, I wasn't in ketosis all along even though I thought I was. Without restricting protein, you can easily be knocked out of ketosis. My meat portions were quite simply too high.

Also, I'm not sure that the "no appetite" thing is a good indication of whether or not one is in ketosis. I still have an appetite. It's not the same as a sugar-burner appetite - that desperate, 'I feel dizzy and need to eat NOW' type of hunger. It's more of a "my belly is empty and it's time to eat" feeling. It can easily be ignored without any stress, but it's still there. Also remember that protein is actually the most satiating macronutrient, not fat (see this Paul Jamminet article for more on that). I'm not saying this is what's happening, but that "never hungry" affect might be coming from higher protein in the diet.

The amount of meat eaten at a protein restricted meal is miniscule compared to what a normal meal would look like - 3 ounces in most cases (that's about 75 grams) in order to keep protein below 25 grams per meal. I've been cutting my pork chops in half for my meals, just to give an idea.

Just FWIW.

 

[truth seeker]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Just a word of caution. I don't know if this will apply to either of you, but I thought I'd just give my brief story here so you can reflect whether or not it does.

I've been essentially zero carb for close to a year and a half (I don't remember exactly when I dropped to zero, but it was somewhere around April of 2011). I thought I was in ketosis the whole time - how could I not be? But this most recent change, with the fasting and the protein restriction, made me go through what were clearly ketoadaptation symptoms. In other words, I wasn't in ketosis all along even though I thought I was. Without restricting protein, you can easily be knocked out of ketosis. My meat portions were quite simply too high.

Also, I'm not sure that the "no appetite" thing is a good indication of whether or not one is in ketosis. I still have an appetite. It's not the same as a sugar-burner appetite - that desperate, 'I feel dizzy and need to eat NOW' type of hunger. It's more of a "my belly is empty and it's time to eat" feeling. It can easily be ignored without any stress, but it's still there. Also remember that protein is actually the most satiating macronutrient, not fat (see this Paul Jamminet article for more on that). I'm not saying this is what's happening, but that "never hungry" affect might be coming from higher protein in the diet.

The amount of meat eaten at a protein restricted meal is miniscule compared to what a normal meal would look like - 3 ounces in most cases (that's about 75 grams) in order to keep protein below 25 grams per meal. I've been cutting my pork chops in half for my meals, just to give an idea.

Just FWIW.

I agree with all of the above but am currently beginning to question the idea of protein. The reason for this is because I seem to be satiated with broth and fat alone. While I do feel as if I 'should' eat something, that seems to be more tied to the idea of being used to eating as opposed to drinking all my meals. It's as if I could live almost exclusively off fat at this moment. The amount of actual meat I'm eating for the most part is mainly 1 - 1 1/2 ounce(s), about 6 to 9 teaspoons. This, of course, may depend on individual dietary requirements. While I'll keep experimenting, it's interesting and bizarre that I've been able to to feel full for such a long time (7 hour stretches) on so little. It'll be interesting to see where this goes.

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I am still intrigued about a possible connection between KD and nicotine. Both are in a sense neuroprotective, at least in regards to certain neurodegenerative diseases, like Alzheimers and Parkinson. Maybe they share a common pathway somewhere, and if - my guess would be in the mitochondrial energy pathways.

Don't have much time at hand at the moment but will have more soon, might dig around a little bit for that, but if anyone has some ideas, that would be terrific!

Or the vagus nerve. :)

A high fat diet activates anti-inflammatory pathways mediated by the vagus nerve and the brain. And nicotine has been used to activate anti-inflammatory pathways of the vagus nerve and the brain.