Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[Foxx]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

one question: what is it that makes the water in a BONE BROTH jelly like? could it be protein? and if so how much protein is in it when cooked?

From my understanding, the jelly-like properties of the broth are primarily from the gelatin. If you haven't yet read this article, I'd recommend it:

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/250379-Why-Broth-is-Beautiful-Essential-Roles-for-Proline-Glycine-and-Gelatin

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...I can't wait to see Rosedale's response...

Here it is so far -- a tweet

It is not calorie restriction that extends lifespan. It is carb and protein restriction such that fat becomes burned as the primary fuel.

That is what I was noting about one of the primate experiment in question. It uses a calorie-restricted ketogenic diet (30%, I think), and one with some nasty ingredients, and wouldn't seem to be relevant to what we are doing (carb+protein restriction, not net calorie restriction). Nor, apparently, is it relevant to what Rosedale has been doing. So we have life extension experiments in mice that may not apply to humans, and life extension experiments in primates that may not mean much of anything.

I would be surprised if the human appetite were, when working properly, able to regulate calorie intake (to maintain a stable body weight) but not protein intake. I know that the idea is that evolution doesn't care about life after the reproductive years, and maybe a healthy person could consciously optimize protein intake in order to live longer while saving on food expense (not that I have yet seen convincing evidence of this in humans), but when you are doing things such as reducing/healing inflammation and trying to jump start sluggish metabolism, you may have to defer experimenting with such optimization.

There is another pathway that promotes repair, apart from mTOR/protein restriction (maybe; or maybe they are connected in some way), namely the effects of high vagal tone in the Polyvagal theory. That pathway is available with or without restricting protein intake.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I am guessing that at least in my case it may be a problem with the composition of my gut bacteria, which may have always been off since childhood. (I have always had "gut issues" of one sort or another.) So that might be a difference, but it is possible that it doesn't matter and that it would apply to others here as well. I have tried starving it out (the offending bacteria, not me) by lowering carbs even further, but that does not appear to be working even after a week or two.

I think that starving the offending bacteria out won't happen in one or two weeks, and I also don't think that just lowering one's carbs can get the job done as ''quickly'' (or as comfortable). Which is why I think that along with lowering one's carbs (gradually), one should take enough bone broth and (especially take) additional gut-healing supplements etc. in order to get your system gradually changed to another better fuel, which would then eventually lead to the right gut flora best suited for a ketogenic diet (if that is what you're aiming at). The supplements/bone broth/organs mixed with fats/other healing foods will all benefit/heal your gut in one way or another. And the going low-carb part will create the kind of environment in which the good bacteria/flora can live best in. So it kind of goes hand in hand. Atleast that is how I understand it, and it is how my process went (so a big for what it's worth), and most of my gut healing sure didn't happen in a few weeks! Now that my gut is healed for a great part, I don't take the gut healing supplements anymore, and currently only take magnesium.

I am dealing with stubborn, lifelong gut and metabolic issues that hopefully most people here don't have. Apparently, if you have a bad mix of gut bacteria it can be difficult to correct the situation. Some doctors are resorting to bacterial transplants. Most of what is known about this subject, however, was determined in the context of an unhealthy, "modern" diet, and it might not be as difficult as some people claim, given a better diet.

I haven't noticed differences in my gut as a result of taking supplements over the past year, other than taking bile acids, which had a very unpleasant effect. I took a range of supplements as suggested in PBPM. I have discontinued most supplements now, and that has not had a noticeable effect either.

I definitely am not able to starve out undesirable bacteria by lowering carbs more and more. For me there is a threshold of about 20 g/d that I had best not drop below if I want my GI tract to continue to work, and 30-35 is safer. What I did do was eliminate FODMAP carbs, which seems to have starved out some strains that were causing trouble but not all. Right now I am hovering around 30-35 g/d to see if there is an improvement over time while I look for other things to try. It's a little uncomfortable, but not too.

I don't know, eating carrots and fermented vegetables kind of sounds contradictory to me, as I think that the kind of (good) bacteria that thrive on carrots/fermented veggies differ from those that thrive on a fatty/meat ketogenic type of diet. But maybe the fermented veggies could be a step to some healing, and from there you can eat a bit less of them and slowly go into low-carb? I don't know though, just my thoughts here.

I expect to eliminate the raw carrot when I introduce the raw vegetables. The fermentation appears to be happening in my large intestine (where the bacteria should be). Fat and protein should be digested and absorbed earlier in the GI tract. The large intestine is a waste processor, and it cleans up after the plant foods. Fermentation in the large intestine is normal, but when it is colonized by the wrong kinds of bacteria it can get out of hand, as can the waste products produced by the bacteria. Supposedly, fermented vegetables can help restore a healthy balance.

Quite a number of authors have recommended fermented foods as a way of improving the diversity of gut bacteria -- there is a tiny mention even in PBPM -- and as a more natural alternative to factory-produced probiotics. Both bone broth and fermented foods are traditional foods that have been around for a very long time, though maybe not reaching back to the paleolithic era.

I don't have a problem with going low carb -- I have been there for a year. I just need to be careful not to go up too much by including more vegetables. I have varied my carb intake over the last year in the range of near zero to about 60 g/d, spending most of the time in the middle somewhere. At very low levels I encountered severe problems. In the 30-50 g/d range I am OK. I can go for many hours without eating and my energy level and concentration remain reasonable. I am also slowly losing weight again. I went through the usual "induction" symptoms when I dropped from ~70 g/d to ~20 last year, and they eased after a couple of months. It looks like ketosis to me, and it smelled like it at first, too.

 

[monotonic]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I just had the thought, burning diarrhea occurs because the digestive enzymes are leaking into the large intestine, for whatever reason. Is it possible that if one has diarrhea, they will need more protein to rebuild the digestive enzymes?

 

[sebbe]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

For me there is a threshold of about 20 g/d that I had best not drop below if I want my GI tract to continue to work, and 30-35 is safer.

What happens if you are under 20 g/day? You don't go to stool anymore? And if, how many days?

 

[Nathan]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I just had the thought, burning diarrhea occurs because the digestive enzymes are leaking into the large intestine, for whatever reason. Is it possible that if one has diarrhea, they will need more protein to rebuild the digestive enzymes?

When you have a leaky gut, the damaged microvilli along the intestinal lining can't manufacture the digestive enzymes they need to break down the food (protein and fat) for proper digestion and to supply what is needed to where. With a leaky gut, you have food molecules flowing into the bloodstream and causing a wide variety of problems. Diarrhea could be occurring because you are lacking digestive enzymes.

I think the approach discussed in this thread (high fat, moderate protein, no carbs, intermittent half-day fasting) will give your body what it needs to heal your gut wall.

EDIT: And bone broth!

 

[monotonic]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

When you have a leaky gut, the damaged microvilli along the intestinal lining can't manufacture the digestive enzymes they need to break down the food (protein and fat) for proper digestion and to supply what is needed to where. With a leaky gut, you have food molecules flowing into the bloodstream and causing a wide variety of problems. Diarrhea could be occurring because you are lacking digestive enzymes.

I think the approach discussed in this thread (high fat, moderate protein, no carbs, intermittent half-day fasting) will give your body what it needs to heal your gut wall.

EDIT: And bone broth!

Are you sure? If you get burning diarrhea, there are apparently enough enzymes to begin digesting your rear end. I haven't studied or come across what exactly causes diarrhea, though it seems diarrhea results from things you would think would cause constipation and consipation occurs from things you'd think would cause diarrhea... So I'm somewhat confused. It seems difficult to sort out the cause of either one without careful observation.

 

[MK Scarlett]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

By readings your posts recently, I had to understood that a lot of you have to pay for the bones. It is something which pretty surprised me at first, because here, I do not pay for them, they are free... This makes me wonder I am lucky compared to others people who have some difficulties to find bones even paying them. Actually I had never paid for bones in my life. Butchers are like that in the country, free bones for dogs, free bones for humans. But surely I do not know all of them so it could exist some here who would make pay bones. I do not know.
I only can testimony that bones broth is an "usual" use especially for a known traditional dish: the beef stew. I made my first one I was 17 years old and it always was a part of my life food except during my "vegetarian" period. So here, it is very cheap to drink bone broths.

I also wanted to share something about food and love of it specifically...
I learnt two days ago enough early in the morning than my husband's cousin died at 38 years old because he contracted a hospital-borne disease. My first question was "why was he in the hospital?" He was there because he had wanted to be put a gastric ring to be able to continue to eat without continue to enlarge. His weight at his entry at the hospital was of 140kg.
I thought "Oh my God, his love of food killed him, how sad it is!" I thought to his parents and wife (he has just married two years ago) and about the fights he used to have with his mummy about food because he used to eat a lot and she used to explain to him that it was not good for him.
I was sad because many people have health issues and can die because of unknowledge about food and about their body functioning.
I knew it in the same hour I was reading the Psyche's post on "basics of mitochondrial energetics". So at the moment where I was reading a beautiful explanation of health issue my husband showed me the message.

All is lesson. And I feel very grateful about all the work shared and reported here.

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I am dealing with stubborn, lifelong gut and metabolic issues that hopefully most people here don't have.

Some of mine seem pretty close based on what you've written.

Apparently, if you have a bad mix of gut bacteria it can be difficult to correct the situation. Some doctors are resorting to bacterial transplants. Most of what is known about this subject, however, was determined in the context of an unhealthy, "modern" diet, and it might not be as difficult as some people claim, given a better diet.

I was going on that theory too until I realized that it was really all about bacteria involved with carb/fiber digestion.

I was afraid to go zero carbs because every time I approached it, I had problems. But for some reason, this time, despite the fact that I went several days with no movement at all but finally DID get moving with extra fat in the bone broth, my fears have dissolved.

I definitely am not able to starve out undesirable bacteria by lowering carbs more and more. For me there is a threshold of about 20 g/d that I had best not drop below if I want my GI tract to continue to work, and 30-35 is safer. What I did do was eliminate FODMAP carbs, which seems to have starved out some strains that were causing trouble but not all. Right now I am hovering around 30-35 g/d to see if there is an improvement over time while I look for other things to try. It's a little uncomfortable, but not too.

I thought that too. But, like I said, this time, I just went cold turkey and held out through the first week of misery and second week of half misery and things sorted right out. Since it was a question of getting the mtDNA sorted, I knew that would solve the other problems and the only way to do that was hard-core ketosis and lifting weights. And it worked.

I expect to eliminate the raw carrot when I introduce the raw vegetables. The fermentation appears to be happening in my large intestine (where the bacteria should be). Fat and protein should be digested and absorbed earlier in the GI tract. The large intestine is a waste processor, and it cleans up after the plant foods. Fermentation in the large intestine is normal, but when it is colonized by the wrong kinds of bacteria it can get out of hand, as can the waste products produced by the bacteria. Supposedly, fermented vegetables can help restore a healthy balance.

Just a warning: Ark has a very sensitive stomach and one day the girls were canning carrots and he picked up a few to much on raw. This was during paleo diet period, not long before KD. Well, he thought he was gonna die from the stomach ache.

Once you have stopped feeding those veggie digesting bacteria, they DO die off rather quickly. The no carbs system seems to only want to eliminate every few days which is fine with me!

Quite a number of authors have recommended fermented foods as a way of improving the diversity of gut bacteria -- there is a tiny mention even in PBPM -- and as a more natural alternative to factory-produced probiotics. Both bone broth and fermented foods are traditional foods that have been around for a very long time, though maybe not reaching back to the paleolithic era.

I would say that if you HAVE to eat veggies, fermented ones would be best or at the very least, you should open the veggie containing meal with fermented foods to get things going. But right about now, I'm really enjoying finally having a running system for the first time in 50 years.

I don't have a problem with going low carb -- I have been there for a year. I just need to be careful not to go up too much by including more vegetables. I have varied my carb intake over the last year in the range of near zero to about 60 g/d, spending most of the time in the middle somewhere. At very low levels I encountered severe problems. In the 30-50 g/d range I am OK. I can go for many hours without eating and my energy level and concentration remain reasonable. I am also slowly losing weight again. I went through the usual "induction" symptoms when I dropped from ~70 g/d to ~20 last year, and they eased after a couple of months. It looks like ketosis to me, and it smelled like it at first, too.

I thought/did all the same. Now glad I went cold-turkey and toughed it out until the mtDNA could get moving and do the apoptosis/autophagy, and whatever else.

 

[Gawan]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I can report similar symptoms since restricting carbs and eating less proteins: weak and shaky legs, less smoking and also at one point heart palpitations. Also I need about two naps a day (at least this day). Hopefully the energy level is increasing with time, cause going to bed in the middle of the day and waking up takes about 2-3 hours.

Gawan, it may be that you might try what I had to do, just push through this sort of thing until the wild mtDNA begins to proliferate. And the only way I found to do that is to have the bone broth at least two times a day, sometimes three, with added lard and butter, though you may wish to avoid butter. I would just drink it out of a cup like tea. And the pretty-close-to-exact amount of protein in some form. Then, also, the potassium and a couple of magnesiums at night before bed. It really can take a couple of weeks of this total fatigue while apoptosis and autophagy is going on. I also have made it a point to get some weight lifting in so that at least a few clumps of muscles in my body get strained to that point of exhausting/burn that is described as necessary to activate the mtDNA in the peripheral fibers.

No worries I stick to it and it is easier then the other transition to low carb and fat from last year. And I eventually get today a kettlebell for further training.

For the supplements I take two different magnesium kinds and potassium.

 

[Goemon_]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I have been experimenting little legs pain for the last two days. They aren't cramps like some of us had at the beginning of the PD. I still had those ones during all summer after having load or unlaod my truck (that means lifting 7kg boxes during an hour or so) several times each week.

I have make my first HIIT (High Intensive Interval Training) the day before yesterday (day in). I will try to do it every other day.

Yesterday I had my "stools" back in the form of diarrhea (again). I had to go to the toilet four times in the evening, last time at 12 pm after 2 hours of sleep. Also it was a bit irritated.

I will add back potassium and magnesium supplement.

Also, I suspect the coconut oil. I will avoid it, but I will have to wait tommorow, when I will be able to make some more ghee (I'm almost out of it). I do have some rendered fat from pig but it doesn't look good to me. I have no problem when it is rendered from the belly in the oven. Well, I will try it again later, I'm not ready for that now.

MK Scarlett, you may want to read the following about himalayan salt.

Too much salt can certainly have a dehydrating effect-and can also cause diarrahea which will aggrevate the situation, so you have to be careful with salty stuff- but salt is essential (good salt like sea salt) to our health. I am going to try Himalayan salt-it is supposed to be real good, and so is Celtic sea salt. I priced some on line and it is quite reasonable.

You might want to skip the Himalayan salt and just stick with the Celtic sea salt. It looks like the Himalayan stuff, besides not actually being from the Himalayas, is quite high in fluoride.

_http://fluoridedetective.com/2012/02/05/fluoridated-salt/

FWIW

Good day, forgiveness, thank you

 

[MK Scarlett]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

[...]
MK Scarlett, you may want to read the following about himalayan salt.

Too much salt can certainly have a dehydrating effect-and can also cause diarrahea which will aggrevate the situation, so you have to be careful with salty stuff- but salt is essential (good salt like sea salt) to our health. I am going to try Himalayan salt-it is supposed to be real good, and so is Celtic sea salt. I priced some on line and it is quite reasonable.

You might want to skip the Himalayan salt and just stick with the Celtic sea salt. It looks like the Himalayan stuff, besides not actually being from the Himalayas, is quite high in fluoride.

_http://fluoridedetective.com/2012/02/05/fluoridated-salt/

FWIW

Good day, forgiveness, thank you

Thank you Goemon for the advice and this is another lesson to me... I should have make searchs.

I used (until now) this Himalayan salt twice a day with a glass of water. For cooking I only use big salt from Celtic Sea, the grey variety which is collected in the hand, unrefined and untreated (as I always did actually) and this could be why I do not get diarrheas.

Edit: Spelling

 

[MK Scarlett]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

To come back on this Himalayan Salt I made some searchs with this question in mind: Does the salt of Himalaya come to mountains?

It looks it does not. It is the geologic region of Himalaya and not that geographical of the climbers! The salt comes from a region of low mountain ranges to the northeast of Pakistan. Hereafter some quots fwiw.

5. Khewra Salt Mines Project:

Khewra Salt Mines Project is located about 5 kilometers North of Pind Dadan Khan District Jehlum on the right bank of Jhelum River. These mines are accessible both from Lahore - Islamabad Motorway via Lilla and Kalar Kahar Interchange. The approach road from Islamabad to Khewra Salt Mines is 152 kilometer on the south side and 13 kilometer from Choa Saidan Shah in the north side.

Khewra Salt Mines Project is based on three independent salt mining units Khewra, Khura and Makrach. There are 19 levels in Khewra mines; seven are above the main level (ground level) and eleven are below the ground level. So far 73 chambers of varying sizes have been worked at khura mines. Working in main mine is through registered miners having hereditary working rights. Working in other areas of mine namely Sohal, Makrach, Khura, Tramway and in tunnels is through contractors which are 11 in total.

Khewra Salt Mines are the oldest in the salt mining history of the sub-continent. Salt occurs in the form of an irregular dome like structure. There are seven thick salt beds with cumulative thickness of about 150 meters. At places rock salt is 99% pure. Salt is transparent, white, pink, reddish to beef-colour red. In certain horizons it is crystalline. Inside the mine there are beautiful alternate bands of red and white colour salt. There are 18 working levels. Cumulative length of all drivages is more than 40 km.

Khewra Salt Mines Tourist Resort About 250,000 to 300,000 visitors comprising of college students, general public, and foreigners visit Salt Mines Khewra every year. In February 2002 PMDC management launched “Khewra Salt Mines Resort Development Project” with an estimated cost of Rs. 4.2 million for up gradation of tourist attractions. Khewra Salt Mines Tourist Resort has been developed by PMDC with its own resources.

Khewra Salt Mine Asthma Resort An allergological asthma resort has been built for treatment of asthma patients at the famous Khewra salt mines. The asthma resort was set up at a cost of Rs10 million as a pilot project. At present the resort has a capacity to accommodate 20 patients but in future it would be expanded to accommodate 100 patients.

Source: http://www.privatisation.gov.pk/industry/PMDC.htm

Hereafter a video about the Khewra Salt Mines:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTK1Lo-jA9E&feature=related
Others are available on the Web.


And also:

Khewra Salt Mines is a salt mine located in District Jhelum, Punjab in Pakistan, about 160 kilometers from Islamabad and 260 kilometers from Lahore. It attracts up to 40,000 visitors per year and is the second largest salt mine in the world. Situated in the foothills of the Salt Range, the Khewra Salt Mines are the oldest in the sub-continent.

Salt has been mined at Khewra since 320 BC, in an underground area of about 110 sq. km. Khewra salt mine has estimated total of 220 million tones of rock salt deposits. The current production from the mine is 325,000 tons salt per annum.

The mine-head buildings have 17 stories, with 11 below ground. The salt-mine is 945 feet above sea level and extends around 2,400 feet inside the earth from the mine-mouth. There are 17 working levels and the cumulative length of all tunnels is more than 40 km.

Salt occurs in the form of an irregular dome like structure. There are seven thick salt seams with a cumulative thickness of about 150 meters. At places the rock salt is 99% pure. Salt is transparent, white, pink, reddish to beef-color red. There are beautiful alternate bands of red and white color salt.

Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEuAeUlX3b4&feature=related

I found all these by following the way from the website who markets the Himalayan Salt I use to buy. Maybe this "Himalayan salt" is a gross naming to attract the consumer, but it looks it does exist finally.

 

[Pierre]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

To come back on this Himalayan Salt I made some searchs with this question in mind: Does the salt of Himalaya come to mountains?

It looks it does not. It is the geologic region of Himalaya and not that geographical of the climbers! The salt comes from a region of low mountain ranges to the northeast of Pakistan.

From a marketing point of view the Himalayan mountains sound indeed more appealing than a Pakistani mine.

Also the pink color of the salt come from the high content in iron.

 

[Thomas Alan]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Ketosis made us human :)

Thank you so much Psyche for this fantastic explanation!

Yes, it's becoming clearer for me. I haven't caught up with the leading edge of this thread yet but I've found some info that really helps clarify my thinking on diet.

I have been using butter to add fat to my meals. In the past week I started using leaf lard instead. Apparently, my body likes it better. More energy, clearer head. Now I need to work on the proportions of fat to protein.

Last winter, I tried to bring carbs down to near zero. After a month or so I added some carbs back in. I just didn't feel good, heavy and down. Now with attention to protein/fat I'm working on bringing carbs down again. At about 150g per right now. Also finding that lard is a better energy source than butter is a plus.

I'm at the very lowest weight I want to go right now so proceeding cautiously. Also, at 66, I have to consider whether my body can handle the changes. But it's definitely worth the experiment now that I am understanding the mitochondrial connection and esoteric implications.

I'm going to try to make bone broth when I have time next week. I'm not much of a cook and with working my time is limited but it will be fun.

Thanks to all who have contributed. Learning is, indeed, fun.

Mac