Ketone meters

My test strips arrived yesterday afternoon. I've tried two ketone test strips and two glucose test strip so far, and all have come up with some kind of error message. I've gotten E-3, E-3, E-5, and E-5. E-5 isn't even in the owner's manual! :huh:

I'm wondering if I should just cut my losses on this meter, because I have to physically hold the strip in the meter and keep moving it around and twisting it slightly until the meter reads that there's a strip and it can't be moved from that position or else the meter will no longer read the strip. Quite a nuisance, really.

On top of the near impossibility of getting a strip to register are the error messages. Is anyone else having this many problems?
 
Sorry to hear that the Nova Max isn't working out. I've read people have better luck with the Precision Xtra.
 
Arwenn said:
So I received my monitor on Friday & have taken a glucose & ketone readings at the same time every evening. It was slightly earlier this evening because I cut myself while I was cooking & wasn't going to let the blood go to waste! (anything to avoid having to prick my finger again) :D

1st reading: G 6.7 (mmol/L). K 0.5 (mmol/L) Time 8:20pm
2nd reading: G 3.7 " K 0.5 " Time 8:00 pm
3rd reading: G 4.7 " K 1.6 " Time 5:10 pm

I have been eating way too much protein! I looked at a keto calculator and adjusted my intake on Saturday & today, & voilà! I also purchased a new set of kitchen scales, and will have to start looking up the nutritional facts on everything, because you really can't guesstimate the fat/protein/carb analysis in foods.

Oh, and another thing- I had been snacking on nuts (they don't seem to cause me inflammation) & also the homemade chocolate; it's amazing how the carbs can creep in there if you're not watchful!

My numbers were similar, However when I stopped eating lunch I would almost consistently get in the upper 2.5- 3.2 mmol/L for ketones. So that was a good learning experience. I also noticed that ketone readings were lower in the morning and that struck me as odd until I saw this thread. However the afternoon readings tend to be more telling from my experience.

A Jay said:
Arwenn said:
A Jay said:
Thanks for the info Gaby, Odyssey, and Arwenn!

I'm still waiting on my test strips, so I'm going to check TASLCP and Jimmy Moore's results and figure out a consistent time in the morning that works with my schedule before they arrive.

I've already cut back moderately on my protein, and I'm feeling much more stable throughout the day. May cut back a bit more, but with a lot more fat from the lard version of the fat bomb.

Hey A Jay, what's TASCLP? I can definitely vouch for cutting back on protein. I made a lamb stew today, with forequarters- when I asked the butcher to weigh me a piece that was about 50-60 gm, you'd be amazed just how small it is. Aside from the finger pricking part (which I detest), I am really gaining valuable information with my ketone meter. It'll be interesting to see what readings you get :)

It's short hand for 'The Art and Science of Low Carb Performance,' sorry for the confusion. Glad you're getting good info from the testing!

I cut back a little bit more today on my protein portion sizes, and I feel a little more level than yesterday. Although, keeping my daily total this low (~1.1g/kg) seems a bit counter-productive for trying to gain weight. Perhaps it's just successful marketing that is driving my desire for more protein, since Dr. Ellington Darden has found that all you need is 1g protein/kg with excess calories to build new muscle?

In any case, I'm ready for my strips to arrive so I can have some concrete numbers to deal with! :D

Hmm...yea this was difficult for me at first. I lost a ton of weight going keto so I started weighing my portions and calculating protein and fat. But here is the kicker...for me I started weight training and if i'm thinking about this correctly the muscles use up excess glucose from the protein which will result in your body having to use ketones sooner rather than later.

So maybe if you are hesitant with cutting a lot of protein you could do some pretty strenuous resistant workouts as well as keep up with the fatbombs. When I started doing this I gained some of my weight back while at the same time remaining in moderate ketosis.

I've been out of strips for awhile now so I'll prob order some more to continue tracking the numbers. I haven't checked since I started the Fatbomb diet. :P

A Jay said:
My test strips arrived yesterday afternoon. I've tried two ketone test strips and two glucose test strip so far, and all have come up with some kind of error message. I've gotten E-3, E-3, E-5, and E-5. E-5 isn't even in the owner's manual! :huh:

I'm wondering if I should just cut my losses on this meter, because I have to physically hold the strip in the meter and keep moving it around and twisting it slightly until the meter reads that there's a strip and it can't be moved from that position or else the meter will no longer read the strip. Quite a nuisance, really.

On top of the near impossibility of getting a strip to register are the error messages. Is anyone else having this many problems?

Yea that is strange...maybe I'll bring mine along with some strips so we can do some testing! Lol And you can probably have my ketone meter. It's worked great so far but I tested myself so many times with altering what I ate, I think I have a pretty good grasp of what my values would be.

And the one Gandalf posted
Gandalf said:
The Precision Xtra blood ketone is free with the purchase of 100 Precision Xtra® test strips for canadian up to 31/12/2014:

_http://www.abbottdiabetescare.ca/adc_ca/url/content/en_ca/product/product_profile_0016/precision-xtra-blood-ketone-test-strips.htm

You don't have to twist and turn it...the strip just slips into the slot like a debit card.
 
trendsetter37 said:
A Jay said:
My test strips arrived yesterday afternoon. I've tried two ketone test strips and two glucose test strip so far, and all have come up with some kind of error message. I've gotten E-3, E-3, E-5, and E-5. E-5 isn't even in the owner's manual! :huh:

I'm wondering if I should just cut my losses on this meter, because I have to physically hold the strip in the meter and keep moving it around and twisting it slightly until the meter reads that there's a strip and it can't be moved from that position or else the meter will no longer read the strip. Quite a nuisance, really.

On top of the near impossibility of getting a strip to register are the error messages. Is anyone else having this many problems?

Yea that is strange...maybe I'll bring mine along with some strips so we can do some testing! Lol And you can probably have my ketone meter. It's worked great so far but I tested myself so many times with altering what I ate, I think I have a pretty good grasp of what my values would be.

I'm not sure, but I think I've read that if you have 0.5 levels, the Nova Max can read it as "Low".

If you keep getting error even with the glucose reading, maybe there is something wrong with the gadget and they should refund or give you another one?
 
A Jay said:
My test strips arrived yesterday afternoon. I've tried two ketone test strips and two glucose test strip so far, and all have come up with some kind of error message. I've gotten E-3, E-3, E-5, and E-5. E-5 isn't even in the owner's manual! :huh:

I'm wondering if I should just cut my losses on this meter, because I have to physically hold the strip in the meter and keep moving it around and twisting it slightly until the meter reads that there's a strip and it can't be moved from that position or else the meter will no longer read the strip. Quite a nuisance, really.

On top of the near impossibility of getting a strip to register are the error messages. Is anyone else having this many problems?

A Jay, that sounds very frustrating! Either the meter is out of whack, or perhaps the ketones are low and not registering? Try searching the net for the error codes for the Nova Nax, or calling them about it. As I mentioned in an earlier post, while the Nova Max seems to give accurate glucose readings, they're iffy when it comes to ketones. If you're in the States, you could apply to Abbott Labs for a free Nova Max Precision meter (they give the meters away, because the strips can be so expensive).
 
I'm laid up in bed with a nasty head cold. I stuffed up the glucose strip, so I didn't bother re-checking that. Ketone readings today at 1 pm (earler in the day, 'cuz I think I'll be asleep early this evening) were 2.1mmol/L. Just goes to show what a bit of IF can do- I've just had a few bites of Fat Bomb custard and some water all day.
 
I'll call the Nova Max company tomorrow to try and figure out what is wrong, if nothing can be done I'll contact Abbott Labs about getting a Precision Xtra meter.

In the meantime, I'm going to be more diligent about weighing out and writing down my portions, so that way I'm not keeping track of it all in my head as I'm prone to do.

trendsetter37 said:
My numbers were similar, However when I stopped eating lunch I would almost consistently get in the upper 2.5- 3.2 mmol/L for ketones. So that was a good learning experience. I also noticed that ketone readings were lower in the morning and that struck me as odd until I saw this thread. However the afternoon readings tend to be more telling from my experience.

That makes sense. Testing after meals would tell you your body's limits, and so long as you stay within those limits you wouldn't wake up with ketones below .5mmol.

trendsetter37 said:
A Jay said:
Arwenn said:
A Jay said:
Thanks for the info Gaby, Odyssey, and Arwenn!

I'm still waiting on my test strips, so I'm going to check TASLCP and Jimmy Moore's results and figure out a consistent time in the morning that works with my schedule before they arrive.

I've already cut back moderately on my protein, and I'm feeling much more stable throughout the day. May cut back a bit more, but with a lot more fat from the lard version of the fat bomb.

Hey A Jay, what's TASCLP? I can definitely vouch for cutting back on protein. I made a lamb stew today, with forequarters- when I asked the butcher to weigh me a piece that was about 50-60 gm, you'd be amazed just how small it is. Aside from the finger pricking part (which I detest), I am really gaining valuable information with my ketone meter. It'll be interesting to see what readings you get :)

It's short hand for 'The Art and Science of Low Carb Performance,' sorry for the confusion. Glad you're getting good info from the testing!

I cut back a little bit more today on my protein portion sizes, and I feel a little more level than yesterday. Although, keeping my daily total this low (~1.1g/kg) seems a bit counter-productive for trying to gain weight. Perhaps it's just successful marketing that is driving my desire for more protein, since Dr. Ellington Darden has found that all you need is 1g protein/kg with excess calories to build new muscle?

In any case, I'm ready for my strips to arrive so I can have some concrete numbers to deal with! :D

Hmm...yea this was difficult for me at first. I lost a ton of weight going keto so I started weighing my portions and calculating protein and fat. But here is the kicker...for me I started weight training and if i'm thinking about this correctly the muscles use up excess glucose from the protein which will result in your body having to use ketones sooner rather than later.

So maybe if you are hesitant with cutting a lot of protein you could do some pretty strenuous resistant workouts as well as keep up with the fatbombs. When I started doing this I gained some of my weight back while at the same time remaining in moderate ketosis.

I've been out of strips for awhile now so I'll prob order some more to continue tracking the numbers. I haven't checked since I started the Fatbomb diet. :P

What was your protein intake and workout frequency, if you don't mind my asking.

Because I'm down 10 pounds from when I started, and I think most of this is muscle since I'm noticeably smaller but not noticeably leaner. I'm thinking that a good range for me would be ~3500 cal or more with carbs at a minimum (below 25g) and protein at ~1.3g/kg with full-body negative-emphasized strength training sessions once every 3-5 days.

trendsetter37 said:
A Jay said:
My test strips arrived yesterday afternoon. I've tried two ketone test strips and two glucose test strip so far, and all have come up with some kind of error message. I've gotten E-3, E-3, E-5, and E-5. E-5 isn't even in the owner's manual! :huh:

I'm wondering if I should just cut my losses on this meter, because I have to physically hold the strip in the meter and keep moving it around and twisting it slightly until the meter reads that there's a strip and it can't be moved from that position or else the meter will no longer read the strip. Quite a nuisance, really.

On top of the near impossibility of getting a strip to register are the error messages. Is anyone else having this many problems?

Yea that is strange...maybe I'll bring mine along with some strips so we can do some testing! Lol And you can probably have my ketone meter. It's worked great so far but I tested myself so many times with altering what I ate, I think I have a pretty good grasp of what my values would be.

And the one Gandalf posted
Gandalf said:
The Precision Xtra blood ketone is free with the purchase of 100 Precision Xtra® test strips for canadian up to 31/12/2014:

_http://www.abbottdiabetescare.ca/adc_ca/url/content/en_ca/product/product_profile_0016/precision-xtra-blood-ketone-test-strips.htm

You don't have to twist and turn it...the strip just slips into the slot like a debit card.

We'll see what comes of working with the aforementioned companies on getting a new meter, and I think it would be really interesting to do some ketone testing at the next meet up. :cool2:
 
A Jay said:
What was your protein intake and workout frequency, if you don't mind my asking.

Because I'm down 10 pounds from when I started, and I think most of this is muscle since I'm noticeably smaller but not noticeably leaner. I'm thinking that a good range for me would be ~3500 cal or more with carbs at a minimum (below 25g) and protein at ~1.3g/kg with full-body negative-emphasized strength training sessions once every 3-5 days.

So usually when I was first getting into ketosis I would gorge. I guess the excess protein would make up for my carb cravings. My ratio was around 1.91 grams of protein per kilo of bodyweight. That typical day was 2 eggs, 4 to 5 slices of bacon, bratwurst sausage, and 2 porkchops for dinner. At this time I was getting my fat mostly through ghee butter and coconut oil as dipping sauce.

When I started modulating, my ratio was closer to 1.28g of protein per kilo. You can get their with nothing more than eating one porkchop instead of 2 at the end of the day. Then when I started eating fatbombs I was not compelled to eat so much protein. Sometimes I would come home and just eat a ramekan of the custard (Again I didn't need to cut the breakfast that much).

That would get me close to just 1 g/ kilo. However, I noticed that when I started weight training my hunger went down as well. Possibly because it would get me into ketosis sooner. You are less hungry when burning ketones. But with my regimen I will spread a full body workout across four days. So work chest on mon. back on tues., legs wed. and arms thurs..

Prob. spending only 45min. to an hour in the gym at a time. I use to actually body build maybe 5 years ago now (My weight then was around 180 lbs / 82 kilos) but it was on a conventional diet and the results i'm seeing now are pretty ridiculous seeing as I don't really go to the gym religiously like I use to. Sometimes I skip weeks at a time, but for some reason unlike before I still get stronger when I go back. That never happened before on the other diet (mainstream). As i'm sure you've noticed by now i'm not that big anymore lol. Currently I am around 140lbs/62kilos. But I went all the way down to 120lbs/54kg when I first started keto about 6 to 7 months ago. I'm not so much into size anymore but I couldn't help noticing that 1) my strength was improving much more rapidly than I've ever noticed 2) I'm not hungry 24/7 and 3) You can better modulate your weight with the amount of protein once you're keto-adapted and doing strenuous resistance training apparently.

If you are not going for size and looking for just efficient muscle use. I would suggest low reps and higher weight (I know this goes against convention). High reps tend to expand muscle first before adding strength so you kind of have to expand before you go up in weight. Even if you stay with the same weight every week, high rep efficiency translates into bigger muscles over time. Especially if your muscles do not have to compete for glucose with the rest of your body. If you are in or nearing ketosis the glucose you will have will go straight to the organs that are obligate glucose consumers (muscles using glucose for glycogen). Correct me if i'm wrong on that?

So how you work seems to really translates into more rapid changes at this point. When you do much higher weight lifts (with good form of course) at lower reps. You are telling your body that you just need to get this up as quickly as possible, which prompts for efficiency within the muscle tissues. This makes them denser or heavier but not always bigger.

So that's been my experience. I'll probably make a journal for a week before the meetup with dietary numbers and ketone readings just to make sure everything is still the same and I'm not leading you astray. Hope that helps.
 
Arwenn said:
I'm laid up in bed with a nasty head cold. I stuffed up the glucose strip, so I didn't bother re-checking that. Ketone readings today at 1 pm (earler in the day, 'cuz I think I'll be asleep early this evening) were 2.1mmol/L. Just goes to show what a bit of IF can do- I've just had a few bites of Fat Bomb custard and some water all day.

Hope you're feeling better Arwenn! :hug2:
 
A Jay said:
Arwenn said:
I'm laid up in bed with a nasty head cold. I stuffed up the glucose strip, so I didn't bother re-checking that. Ketone readings today at 1 pm (earler in the day, 'cuz I think I'll be asleep early this evening) were 2.1mmol/L. Just goes to show what a bit of IF can do- I've just had a few bites of Fat Bomb custard and some water all day.

Hope you're feeling better Arwenn! :hug2:

That's really sweet of you A Jay! Yes, I am feeling much better, thank DCM! :) Any luck with testing your ketones?
 
Arwenn said:
A Jay said:
Arwenn said:
I'm laid up in bed with a nasty head cold. I stuffed up the glucose strip, so I didn't bother re-checking that. Ketone readings today at 1 pm (earler in the day, 'cuz I think I'll be asleep early this evening) were 2.1mmol/L. Just goes to show what a bit of IF can do- I've just had a few bites of Fat Bomb custard and some water all day.

Hope you're feeling better Arwenn! :hug2:

That's really sweet of you A Jay! Yes, I am feeling much better, thank DCM! :) Any luck with testing your ketones?

Glad to hear it! :)

No luck on the ketone testing, just more error messages. Good news is that I called the company this morning and they said that they were sending me a replacement meter and replacement glucose test strips since apparently the ones I have are from a recalled batch. We'll see what happens when the items get here on Wednesday, but I'm excited! :D
 
A Jay said:
No luck on the ketone testing, just more error messages. Good news is that I called the company this morning and they said that they were sending me a replacement meter and replacement glucose test strips since apparently the ones I have are from a recalled batch. We'll see what happens when the items get here on Wednesday, but I'm excited! :D

Ahh, the dodgy test strips would explain the weird error messages. Well, that's great news that they are going to replace the meter and the strips! Here's wishing you plenty of ketones ( and not much glucose) on your first test! :P
 
Arwenn said:
A Jay said:
No luck on the ketone testing, just more error messages. Good news is that I called the company this morning and they said that they were sending me a replacement meter and replacement glucose test strips since apparently the ones I have are from a recalled batch. We'll see what happens when the items get here on Wednesday, but I'm excited! :D

Ahh, the dodgy test strips would explain the weird error messages. Well, that's great news that they are going to replace the meter and the strips! Here's wishing you plenty of ketones ( and not much glucose) on your first test! :P

Yeah, the woman I spoke with said she thinks there is a short in the meter as well which is what the E-5 messages were about. Maybe I should call them and remind them that there's no E-5 error message explanation in their owner's manual, which it probably should be?

Thanks Arwenn!
 
Not sure if this response should be moved to a different thread, since it's not really 'on topic' of ketone meters. Someone let us know if it needs to be moved.

trendsetter37 said:
A Jay said:
What was your protein intake and workout frequency, if you don't mind my asking.

Because I'm down 10 pounds from when I started, and I think most of this is muscle since I'm noticeably smaller but not noticeably leaner. I'm thinking that a good range for me would be ~3500 cal or more with carbs at a minimum (below 25g) and protein at ~1.3g/kg with full-body negative-emphasized strength training sessions once every 3-5 days.

So usually when I was first getting into ketosis I would gorge. I guess the excess protein would make up for my carb cravings. My ratio was around 1.91 grams of protein per kilo of bodyweight. That typical day was 2 eggs, 4 to 5 slices of bacon, bratwurst sausage, and 2 porkchops for dinner. At this time I was getting my fat mostly through ghee butter and coconut oil as dipping sauce.

I was eating probably around the same amount of protein when I started, but now I'm down to 4oz of meat 3-4x a day. Which comes out to about 28g/meal at a ratio of about 1.09-1.45g/kg/day. I'm keeping the extra protein days restricted to lifting days, so I have extra protein for repair when I need it but not when I don't.

When I started modulating, my ratio was closer to 1.28g of protein per kilo. You can get their with nothing more than eating one porkchop instead of 2 at the end of the day. Then when I started eating fatbombs I was not compelled to eat so much protein. Sometimes I would come home and just eat a ramekan of the custard (Again I didn't need to cut the breakfast that much).

That would get me close to just 1 g/ kilo. However, I noticed that when I started weight training my hunger went down as well. Possibly because it would get me into ketosis sooner. You are less hungry when burning ketones. But with my regimen I will spread a full body workout across four days. So work chest on mon. back on tues., legs wed. and arms thurs..

Prob. spending only 45min. to an hour in the gym at a time. I use to actually body build maybe 5 years ago now (My weight then was around 180 lbs / 82 kilos) but it was on a conventional diet and the results i'm seeing now are pretty ridiculous seeing as I don't really go to the gym religiously like I use to. Sometimes I skip weeks at a time, but for some reason unlike before I still get stronger when I go back. That never happened before on the other diet (mainstream).

I'm still trying to get a lard version that I like for the custard, I'm out of leaf lard for the moment and back fat isn't the most pleasant thing to use in its stead. Lol. But the fat bombs certainly do help to get the fat up!

Regarding exercise maybe someone can help me out with this, because I've been wondering about how the metabolism pathways change in muscles after keto-adaptation. From my understanding, when not keto-adapted muscles still prefer to use fats for fuel up to a certain point of 'relative effort' above which they switch to using their glycogen stores for fuel. (Which is how all the "cardio" classes can say that they "burn fat" without actually doing much to change one's body comp, because if your muscles are never depleted of glycogen to raise insulin sensitivity then any carbs you eat will go straight to the fat cells.) Now, correct me if I'm wrong but glucose isn't actually pulled directly from the bloodstream to fuel exercise, rather the blood delivers glucose to glycogen stores in the muscle which it then uses when triggered by a high amount of relative muscular effort. So during the adaptation period, any high relative effort exercise won't prevent the spike in blood glucose levels resulting from excessive protein intake. However, that exercise would provide a place for the excess glucose to be stored, up to the point of becoming keto-adapted. From what Phinney and Volek stated in their books it would seem that the relative effort glycogen threshold in muscles is removed after keto-adaptation, and fats are continuously used for fuel up to 100% of relative effort. So, once keto-adapted our muscle glycogen stores aren't actually ever used, similar to the fat cells in an insulin resistant individual. Which would mean that even in the presence of high amounts of exercise, excess protein does nothing but prevent keto-adaptation from occurring. However, exercise could help the adaptation process along by helping with insulin sensitivity and by increasing the amount of fats/ketones metabolized in a given period of time. Or so I think, any comments?

Hmm... So on a conventional diet, you trained religiously (meaning you never missed a workout I'm assuming) using a split routine similar to what you're doing now (again, I'm assuming). Now that you're on a ketogenic diet, you train more infrequently but you're seeing better gains in strength and size. We can't throw out the experience of many athlete's and bodybuilders that it's easier to regain lost strength and muscle then it is to build new muscle fibers, so no surprise there. As for the infrequency leading to consistent gains, it's actually been observed by Dr. Doug McGuff, John Little, and others that those who allow more time for rest and repair make better gains than those who over-train. So, the question is how your body didn't go into repair mode and build new muscle after the intermittent succession of consistent exercise. Assuming you didn't take absurdly long breaks (+3 months between sessions) and only skipped a week or two at most every few months, you should have returned to the gym without losing any strength and possibly becoming slightly stronger. Did you loose any strength after these breaks, or did you just not make any progress?

As i'm sure you've noticed by now i'm not that big anymore lol. Currently I am around 140lbs/62kilos. But I went all the way down to 120lbs/54kg when I first started keto about 6 to 7 months ago. I'm not so much into size anymore but I couldn't help noticing that 1) my strength was improving much more rapidly than I've ever noticed 2) I'm not hungry 24/7 and 3) You can better modulate your weight with the amount of protein once you're keto-adapted and doing strenuous resistance training apparently.

1) Since the ketogenic diet provides a more efficient environment that better allows the body to repair itself, this makes complete sense when coupled with you regaining lost strength 2) It's a lovely feeling, isn't it? Lol 3) I'm going to continue with the extra protein on lifting days only and have excess calories every day. Maybe shooting for 3500 kcal of JUST fat a day, and see what happens. We can compare journals and findings at the meet-ups, lol. :cool2:

If you are not going for size and looking for just efficient muscle use. I would suggest low reps and higher weight (I know this goes against convention). High reps tend to expand muscle first before adding strength so you kind of have to expand before you go up in weight. Even if you stay with the same weight every week, high rep efficiency translates into bigger muscles over time. Especially if your muscles do not have to compete for glucose with the rest of your body. If you are in or nearing ketosis the glucose you will have will go straight to the organs that are obligate glucose consumers (muscles using glucose for glycogen). Correct me if i'm wrong on that?

So how you work seems to really translates into more rapid changes at this point. When you do much higher weight lifts (with good form of course) at lower reps. You are telling your body that you just need to get this up as quickly as possible, which prompts for efficiency within the muscle tissues. This makes them denser or heavier but not always bigger.

So that's been my experience. I'll probably make a journal for a week before the meetup with dietary numbers and ketone readings just to make sure everything is still the same and I'm not leading you astray. Hope that helps.

This has been a really interesting post, haha. Brings focus to thoughts I've been having regarding the effects of exercise in a keto-adapted individual.

Muscles perform better on ketones, and like I mentioned may not actually access its glycogen stores while keto-adapted. But seeing as how efficient and plentiful ketones are when in ketosis, I don't think there would be a 'fight' for ketones like there is a 'fight' for glucose when not in ketosis. Which is just another benefit of ketosis. :D

From my understanding, there is a specific size to strength ratio that varies from person to person and possibly even from muscle to muscle that is not affected or changed by changing the exercise stimulus. To use a good analogy, exercise is a stimulus similar to the sun. When you want to get a suntan, you don't go laying in the sun 8 hours a day every day. That's a good way to get burned, as your body needs time to repair and recover from the damaged incurred from the application of the stimulus. You also wouldn't lay out when it's raining to get a 'surface tan' and then lay out on cloudless days for a 'deep bronze', because different "rays" (sunlight on a stormy day, partially cloudy, or cloudless day) do not produce a different tan. Rather, sunlight triggers a melanin production response and this response will lie somewhere within the limits of one's genetics depending on the strength of the stimulus being applied. A cloudless day allows for a strong stimulus, and thus a strong melanin production response occurs. A stormy day doesn't allow for a strong stimulus if any at all, so very little if any melanin production occurs. Applying this analogy to exercise and we see that different weight/rep ranges and number of sets do not produce a different response, rather each is either a stronger or weaker signal that triggers a stronger or weaker adaptive response. From the pioneering work of Arthur Jones, we find that single sets of low reps/high weights provides the strongest signal for growth in strength and size, while high reps/low weights provides a weak signal and multiple sets does not increase signal strength provided the signal is sent in the first set by going beyond 100% relative effort. The hows and whys of the exercise stimulus are still not really well understood, but the essence from Jones' work is to push a given muscle beyond 100% relative effort within 60-90 seconds. This will allow for a maximal adaptive response from the body, and result in greater strength and size according to one's genetics and environment.

A good summary of recent research can be found here:
_http://baye.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/ebrtr-Fisher1.pdf

Your post has been most helpful, thanks trendsetter! Hopefully you or someone else reading this can help me better understand some of the nuances here, because I feel a little in over my head sometimes. Lol :D
 
I agree this may need to be moved to a separate thread at this point sorry guys...

A Jay said:
Regarding exercise maybe someone can help me out with this, because I've been wondering about how the metabolism pathways change in muscles after keto-adaptation. From my understanding, when not keto-adapted muscles still prefer to use fats for fuel up to a certain point of 'relative effort' above which they switch to using their glycogen stores for fuel. (Which is how all the "cardio" classes can say that they "burn fat" without actually doing much to change one's body comp, because if your muscles are never depleted of glycogen to raise insulin sensitivity then any carbs you eat will go straight to the fat cells.) Now, correct me if I'm wrong but glucose isn't actually pulled directly from the bloodstream to fuel exercise, rather the blood delivers glucose to glycogen stores in the muscle which it then uses when triggered by a high amount of relative muscular effort. So during the adaptation period, any high relative effort exercise won't prevent the spike in blood glucose levels resulting from excessive protein intake. However, that exercise would provide a place for the excess glucose to be stored, up to the point of becoming keto-adapted. From what Phinney and Volek stated in their books it would seem that the relative effort glycogen threshold in muscles is removed after keto-adaptation, and fats are continuously used for fuel up to 100% of relative effort. So, once keto-adapted our muscle glycogen stores aren't actually ever used, similar to the fat cells in an insulin resistant individual. Which would mean that even in the presence of high amounts of exercise, excess protein does nothing but prevent keto-adaptation from occurring. However, exercise could help the adaptation process along by helping with insulin sensitivity and by increasing the amount of fats/ketones metabolized in a given period of time. Or so I think, any comments?

Ahh all of this does makes sense. And honestly I think I have some serious gaps in my understanding of this process. I didn't see it from that angle and my thinking on the matter looks like it could be wrong entirely. I will definitely have to look into Phinney and Volek. Thank you!

A Jay said:
Hmm... So on a conventional diet, you trained religiously (meaning you never missed a workout I'm assuming) using a split routine similar to what you're doing now (again, I'm assuming). Now that you're on a ketogenic diet, you train more infrequently but you're seeing better gains in strength and size. We can't throw out the experience of many athlete's and bodybuilders that it's easier to regain lost strength and muscle then it is to build new muscle fibers, so no surprise there. As for the infrequency leading to consistent gains, it's actually been observed by Dr. Doug McGuff, John Little, and others that those who allow more time for rest and repair make better gains than those who over-train. So, the question is how your body didn't go into repair mode and build new muscle after the intermittent succession of consistent exercise. Assuming you didn't take absurdly long breaks (+3 months between sessions) and only skipped a week or two at most every few months, you should have returned to the gym without losing any strength and possibly becoming slightly stronger. Did you loose any strength after these breaks, or did you just not make any progress?

Your assumptions are correct here regarding my historical workout regimen. And yes in the past I would workout four days on an take 3 off. Consistently. I would maybe edge up a little bit but really see better improvement only if I would take a week off. Then when I went back it was like night and day. It seemed really counter-intuitive at the time because I thought I was giving my body a break for those 3 off days. And in reality since I was doing splits I thought each section had a week off. Guess not.

I try to do more weight than my last session on a particular body part. Where the last session was pretty close to failure or not able to lift the weight on the last set. This is where I concentrate on my breathing and concentration. When I come back to that body part either a week or two later it has been like my muscles don't even remember struggling with that weight the last time. It wasn't really like this before. But you are right about the muscle memory that could be a major factor in all of this. However, maybe i'll plateau soon?

Currently, or at least this is what it seems like to me anyways. I am less concerned about "getting huge" and just kind of use it as an outlet and to stay in some kind of shape. But the less I try in regards to the "oh I need to get to the the gym!" feeling. The more i've noticed the differences between then and now. With the only real changes being dietary and of course finding the forum and reading like crazy!.

A Jay said:
A stormy day doesn't allow for a strong stimulus if any at all, so very little if any melanin production occurs. Applying this analogy to exercise and we see that different weight/rep ranges and number of sets do not produce a different response, rather each is either a stronger or weaker signal that triggers a stronger or weaker adaptive response. From the pioneering work of Arthur Jones, we find that single sets of low reps/high weights provides the strongest signal for growth in strength and size, while high reps/low weights provides a weak signal and multiple sets does not increase signal strength provided the signal is sent in the first set by going beyond 100% relative effort. The hows and whys of the exercise stimulus are still not really well understood, but the essence from Jones' work is to push a given muscle beyond 100% relative effort within 60-90 seconds. This will allow for a maximal adaptive response from the body, and result in greater strength and size according to one's genetics and environment.

This is a good analogy. It seems like I may have been doing what Arthur Jones is suggesting without really understanding the why but noticing or observing the result. Further still I think I have a lot to learn in this area and I think this route was somewhat useful for me (osit). I didn't really have other blatant issues from a physical standpoint to gauge how ketosis was helping me....well save the increased clarity of mind and of course noticing the bodies response when you slip up and eat something forbidden.

So for me the weight training and noticing the differences between now and then really did put things in perspective. But it seems like I need to really dig into the studies to catch up to speed on the knowledge part....my book cue just keeps growing by the day lol.

P.S. Thanks for that link! :D
 
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