Knowledge protects ?

S

samvado

Guest
I just have to get this out of my system:

I am thru Wave I, II and IV (starting III today) and I have read secret history and high strangeness before.
I have also read all of Ra including Wanderers and Wilcocks 3 volume 1000 pages and heaps from asc2k.

From that alone (and I am limiting myself to samples from the "Ra universe") I would deduct that knowledge may be a good thing to have to satisfy inbread curiosity (which already killed the cat) AND occasionally can be helpful in eliciting the correct understanding out of an otherwise confusing situation BUT it is only for the BRAVE and it certainly does not PROTECT.

Don Elkins is dead, Wilcock imo is a megalomaniac crazy (= not dangerous), Laura has been almost killed and is still under attack bad enough to stop publishing C conversation directly. In what way has knowledge protected? In what way CAN it protect a cow that knows I am her slaughterer (well, not me, I'm vegetarian :-) from being my lunch?

I am not just asking a hypothetical question because this seems the prime guideline of the Cs. A search found over 30 references on this forum alone and the books are full of it.

I mean in what way would detailed and in depth knowlege of the meat processing industry save a cow from her destiny? She has no hand to wield a weapon and no conecptual language to inform her cousins. even total enlightenment about the matter wouldnt save her.
if the difference in power, understanding and world-view between 3rd and 4th densitiy is as vast as explained by the Cs (and Ra) the cow is better off against us than we are against 4d STS.

the only way I could possibly imagine knowledge to be helpful is in making better decisions and thereby somewhat using our free will (another bothersome question - how much of it is free?) in a more enlightened way. But then it would be "intelligent application of knowledge protects".
 

j0da

Jedi Council Member
That depends on the definition of knowledge, IMHO.

I found this on wikipedia:

"Knowledge is information of which a person, organization or other entity is aware. Knowledge is gained either by experience, learning and perception or through association and reasoning. The term knowledge is also used to mean the confident understanding of a subject, potentially with the ability to use it for a specific purpose."

I think that the term "Knowledge protects" incorporates such expanded definition, therefore no additions are really necessary.

samvado said:
the only way I could possibly imagine knowledge to be helpful is in making better decisions
Ability to make right decisions is a hell lot of a help, importance of which it is really hard to underestimate.
 
S

samvado

Guest
Maybe also it is meant to prepare us for 4d and not meant to be any good in 3d.
somewhere the Cs say something like: once in 4d the STS will try to lure us into allying with them (again) - and if we get into 4d unprepared we may just fall for it. I found it interesting that the Cs dont think the field between us and the Lzzies is level even WHEN we are 4d. So knowledge may then be the leveler. - just my 2 cents.
 

vinny

The Living Force
To the extent that a person is responsible for their life, and for protecting themselves from whatever dangers, rather than relying on 'external help', then the maxim that 'knowledge protects' is vitally important.

Maybe to sharply clarify how that is so, it can be contrasted with the opposite side that ignorance endangers.

samvado said:
the only way I could possibly imagine knowledge to be helpful is in making better decisions
surely that covers everything?

From the C's transcript (I'm paraphrasing): "where in the definition of knowledge is there any concept of limitation?"

So, Don Elkins is dead. Could that have been down to lack of knowledge about his situation?
Same for Wilcock, and for Laura getting into hot water.

samvado said:
I mean in what way would detailed and in depth knowlege of the meat processing industry save a cow from her destiny? She has no hand to wield a weapon and no conecptual language to inform her cousins. even total enlightenment about the matter wouldnt save her.
if the difference in power, understanding and world-view between 3rd and 4th densitiy is as vast as explained by the Cs (and Ra) the cow is better off against us than we are against 4d STS.
well, maybe that is right, in which case it only highlights the extreme situation we are in. Though there is a difference I think, and that is:

- the cow is being manipulated by physical coersion, ie held by physical fences, pushed into the cattle-van, cattle-prods used etc, so, the only countermeasures available to the cow are physical brute force, his only slim chance to escape would be through the knowledge of how to handle himself physically, and barge the farmer/slaughterhouseman out of the way, and make a run for it :-)

- Yet we are being manipulated on a different level, not just the physical: we are having our free-will used against us, so that the main mode of manipulation is through intellectual deception and emotional manipulation. So, knowledge CAN be used to counteract that kind of manipulation, to see through the lies etc and therefore have a chance to avoid manipulation.

Let me give you an example: one form of manipulation is through propaganda that changes our beliefs about something, and also therefore our actions, in which case knowledge IS an effective antidote.
 
S

samvado

Guest
I used to think that the only way to beat the FTB is in developing ESP - sort of X-men approach. That was before I heard about 4d and Lizzies who are supposedly so far advanced in that scenario that any attempt from us would be like kids playing with toy pistols in a real war.
So what is knowledge USED for. I mean a "better decision" in the face of a grey abduction or a lizzy coming into my living room thru a portal would be WHAT EXACTLY? Although the fact that it took 3 of them to rape one girl gives me a bit of hope as scynical as it sounds. And the mind control of the greys doesnt seem to be water-tight also. But still, in the 2WW what chance would the jews have had without EXTERNAL forces coming to their rescue? And that was almost level field (they put up a fight but only once in the warzaw ghetto near the end of the war against greatly weakened german forces - but even then they lost). I know the Cs say about 4d STS plans: "in the end it will all fail" - however I seem to have missed the "how".
 

j0da

Jedi Council Member
But you are using a term "decision" in a very limited way. We make decisions almost every waking moment of our lives, thus making right decisions in the whole range of aspects - from those small ones, through those of medium importance to the most crucial ones, gradually builds our strenght and ability to withstand the attacks and eventually overcome STS forces, if we act as a group.
 

henry

The Living Force
samvado said:
Don Elkins is dead, Wilcock imo is a megalomaniac crazy (= not dangerous), Laura has been almost killed and is still under attack bad enough to stop publishing C conversation directly. In what way has knowledge protected? In what way CAN it protect a cow that knows I am her slaughterer (well, not me, I'm vegetarian :-) from being my lunch?

I am not just asking a hypothetical question because this seems the prime guideline of the Cs. A search found over 30 references on this forum alone and the books are full of it.
In a certain sense, you give the answer. Laura is alive, working, and is not a megalomaniac. Laura has applied "Knowledge protects, ignorance endangers" is a successful way and has helped many others to do so in their own lives. The important information that one must master has to do with relations with others in the real world: are you giving or taking, are you manipulating or being manipulated? Can you see the traps that are being laid for you by your boss, you family, your friends and can you defend your destiny, or do you allowed yourself to be continually drained? Are you draining others around you, omposing your desires, ideas, and needs?

Believe me, there is much, much work to be done on these questions alone.

The reason she is not publishing the C's sessions now is NOT because she was under attack, but it is because the sessions 1) were being interpreted incorrectly by many people who saw in them what they wanted to see and didn't understand the context of the questions; 2) because the sessions now are very infrequent and deal more with issues that are not relevant to the public; and 3) because the sessions are less important that the work they inspire. The work that comes from the sessions is available, and, at the end of the day, it is the work that matters, not the sessions themselves.

Another point: the sessions served to teach Laura, then Ark, and now a growing group how to work. Once you learn that, it is more fun to do it yourself than to depend upon someone else for answers.
 
S

samvado

Guest
j0da said:
But you are using a term "decision" in a very limited way. We make decisions almost every waking moment of our lives, thus making right decisions in the whole range of aspects - from those small ones, through those of medium importance to the most crucial ones, gradually builds our strenght and ability to withstand the attacks and eventually overcome STS forces, if we act as a group.
Now, how exactly do we overcome STS forces? I don't even want to know if thats likely, I just want to hear about the scenario you have in mind.
You mention a group effort. So far STS attack has been guided towards individuals. With their time-looping even if one stunt against them would work - they go back and correct that. We poker against an opponent who sees all cards in all hands at all times.

However, if the behavior of our 4d STS friends is ultimately self defeating we may not even have to overcome them. we might just be required not to fall for STS in our own lives and THAT seems to me hard enough looking at my life and belief systems, patterns, fears etc. - and I am not even sure I have understood the STO concept correctly let alone start applying it. I like the idea (from wave III) of for 4d STS poisonous human food which unwillingly submits to being lunch. that may be the way for poor 3d selves :-)
 

henry

The Living Force
samvado said:
Now, how exactly do we overcome STS forces? [...]

However, if the behavior of our 4d STS friends is ultimately self defeating we may not even have to overcome them. we might just be required not to fall for STS in our own lives and THAT seems to me hard enough looking at my life and belief systems, patterns, fears etc. - and I am not even sure I have understood the STO concept correctly let alone start applying it. I like the idea (from wave III) of for 4d STS poisonous human food which unwillingly submits to being lunch. that may be the way for poor 3d selves :-)
As you work on your own programmes, belief systems, fears, etc, you one by one untie the threads that bind you to a certain way of seeing the world and behaving. Don't worry about 4D or any of that other stuff. Don't focus on it. Be aware that it is a working hypothesis with a certain probability of being true. Then focus on your own life.

That is where the real work is.
 
S

samvado

Guest
henry said:
Then focus on your own life. That is where the real work is.
been doing that for >30 years now - thank you :-)

there is a slight contradiction - not that this would necessarily be a problem - life is full of them, just mentioning it so doesnt drown with the rest of the conversation:

I am aware of the concept of 4d and its implications by honor of your site and others. I am aware it is just a model like EVERTHING I seem to "know" about the universe and myself. however - according to "knowledge protects" as of my primary inquiry - that would be knowledge about 4d and all implications ne ce pas? so it IS both focus on my own life and the real work to know as much as possible about it and act on that. what else would THE WORK comprise of as of your idea? I -of course- had time to construct my own WORK of which is ongoing, ever changing, waking time and some sleeping time, hardly any time off from it (occasionally a movie and a newspaper which could be said to have mostly none-educational purposes).
since I posted on this forum I have only posted under THE WORK - indicating my preferences nicely (and a new post is in the making - just forwarning ...;-)
 

kenlee

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
samvado said:
henry said:
Then focus on your own life. That is where the real work is.
been doing that for >30 years now - thank you :-)

there is a slight contradiction - not that this would necessarily be a problem - life is full of them, just mentioning it so doesnt drown with the rest of the conversation:

I am aware of the concept of 4d and its implications by honor of your site and others. I am aware it is just a model like EVERTHING I seem to "know" about the universe and myself. however - according to "knowledge protects" as of my primary inquiry - that would be knowledge about 4d and all implications ne ce pas? so it IS both focus on my own life and the real work to know as much as possible about it and act on that. what else would THE WORK comprise of as of your idea? I -of course- had time to construct my own WORK of which is ongoing, ever changing, waking time and some sleeping time, hardly any time off from it (occasionally a movie and a newspaper which could be said to have mostly none-educational purposes).
since I posted on this forum I have only posted under THE WORK - indicating my preferences nicely (and a new post is in the making - just forwarning ...;-)
The work begins with consciousness or self knowledge. We study our personalities, our masks, behind or within which the real part of us acts. We study our inner motivations. We get to know our own reaction machines. We learn how to study the world outside us and the word inside us as objectively as we are able.

We percieve the environment around us, the physical world, as external to our consciousness and we have ways of studying it objectively. However, we see our inner world, the world of our thoughts, feelings, and motivations as subjective, but when we learn to study our inner world in an objective way then we can externalize it and parts of our inner world now become external to us and now we can begin to study our inner world as we study the external 'environmental' world.

So the work is all about objectivity and "seeing" our inner subjective world for what it is, so we can learn to study it objectively where it can now be seen more as an aspect of the objective, 'external' world. It's about consciousness which gives us that inner light to see ourselves for what we really are and it's about the growth of our inner being that allows us to be more able to withstand and endure what we see so we can start to actually do something about it. It's about fine tuning our reading instruments so we can continue to be more and more objective about ourselves and the world in which we live. Making these efforts towards a central aim is where we develop our Will.

http://glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php?id=91&lsel=A

Our aim is objective knowledge and it starts with what Gurdjieff calls the 'First Initiation.'

From http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/ssupplement3.htm

He wrote about the "First Initiation" in the following way:

You will see that in life you get back exactly what you put in. Your life is the mirror of what you are, it is your image. You are passive, blind, demanding. You take all, you accept all, without ever feeling indebted. Your attitude towards the world and towards life is the attitude of one who has the right to demand and take. Of one who doesn't need to pay or gain. You believe that all things are due to you, only because it's you! All your blindness is there. It doesn't catch your attention. It is however what, in you, separates a world from another.

You have no measure to measure yourself up. You live only between 'I like it' and 'I don't like it'. Which means that you have appreciation only for yourself. You do not allow for anything above you - theoretically or logically maybe, but not in reality. This is why you are demanding and keep on thinking that everything should be cheap, and you can afford to pay for anything you want. You don't recognize anything above yourself, or outside yourself or inside yourself. This is why, I repeat, you have no measure and live only to satisfy your whims.

Yes, your 'self appreciation' makes you blind! It is the biggest obstacle to a new life. One has to be able to pass this obstacle, this threshold, before one can go further. It is the test that separates the 'chaff' from the 'wheat' in people. No matter how intelligent, how endowed, how brilliant a man is, if he doesn't change his opinion about himself, he will be lost for inner development, for the work based on self-knowledge, for a real evolution. He will stay as he is all his life. The first demand, the first condition, the first test for he who wants to work on himself is to change his appreciation of himself. He cannot just imagine, or simply believe or think, but actually *see* things in himself that he did not see before, really see them. Never will his opinion about himself change as long as he will not see inside himself. And in order to see, he has to learn to see: it is the first initiation of man into self-knowledge.

Before anything else, he has to know what to look for. Once he knows it, he has to make efforts, focus his attention, look constantly, with tenacity. By maintaining his attention on it, by not forgetting about looking, one day he may see. If he sees once, he can see a second time, and if this is repeated he cannot ignore seeing. This is the state to look for in our observation; it is from this that the true desire, the desire to evolve, will be born; from cold we're becoming hot, vibrating; we will be deeply touched by our reality.

Today we have only the illusion of what we are. We overestimate ourselves. We do not respect ourselves. To respect myself, I have to have recognized in me a part which is higher than the other parts, and to which I show respect by the attitude I have towards it. In this way I will respect myself. And my relationships with others will be ruled by the same respect.

We have to understand that all other measuring units, talent, erudition, culture, genius, are changing units, units of detail. The only true measure, never changing, objective, the only real one, it is the measure of inner vision. 'I' see - 'I' see myself - and you have measured. With a higher, real part, you have measured a lower one, also real. And this measure, defining by itself the respective roles of each part, will bring you to self-respect. But you will see it is not easy. And it is not a bargain. One has to pay a lot. For the bad payers, the lazy, the losers, no chance. One must pay, pay a lot, pay immediately and pay in advance. Pay from oneself. With sincere efforts, wholeheartedly, without expectations.

The more you will be willing to pay without reticence, without cheating, without falsity, the more you will receive. And from then on, you will meet your true nature. And you will see all the tricks, all the dishonesty it goes to in order to avoid paying cash. Because you have to pay with all the gratuitous theories, all the deeply rooted convictions, all the prejudice, all conventions, all 'I like it' and 'I don't like it'. Without bargaining, honestly, not just make believe. Trying to see while using fake money.

Try for a moment to accept the idea that you are not what you think you are, that you overestimate yourself, therefore that you lie to yourself. That you lie to yourself always, every moment, all day long, your whole life. That the lie rules you to the extent that you cannot control it anymore. You are its victim. You lie everywhere. Your relationships with others, lies. The education you' re giving, your petty conventions, lies. our learning, lies. Your theories, your art, lies. Your social life, your family life, all lies. And what you think of yourself, lies too.

But you don't stop from what you're doing or from what you're saying, because you believe in you. You have to stop inside and observe. Observe without prejudice. While accepting for a time this idea of lies. And if you observe in this manner, paying of yourself, without self-pity, by giving all your false riches for one moment of reality, maybe someday you'll see all of a sudden something you have never saw in you before. You will see you are someone else from what you thought you are. You will see that you are two. One that is not, but takes the place and play the other's role. And the one that is, but so weak, so inconsistent, that just brought forth it disappears immediately. It cannot stand the lies. The smallest lie kills it. It doesn't fight, it does not resist, it is vanquished in advance.

Learn to look until you have observed the difference between your two natures, until you have seen the lies, the impostor in you. When you will see your two natures, that day, in you, the truth will be born. [Intro to a meeting from September, 1941: Premiere Initiation, par G.I. Gurdjieff Question de Gurdjieff (no 50) ed. Albin Michel, 1989, p.34-35]
 

henry

The Living Force
there is a slight contradiction - not that this would necessarily be a problem - life is full of them, just mentioning it so doesnt drown with the rest of the conversation:

I am aware of the concept of 4d and its implications by honor of your site and others. I am aware it is just a model like EVERTHING I seem to "know" about the universe and myself. however - according to "knowledge protects" as of my primary inquiry - that would be knowledge about 4d and all implications ne ce pas?
I don't think that there is a contradiction. It is a question of "knowledge", what it is, where it comes from. We live our life in this world. We can't help but learn each day, unless we wish to remain asleep. There is much left to discover and understand in this world. There is more than enough to do in one lifetime.

And the quality of that knowledge is very concrete. You can apply it. Knowledge only protects when it is applied.

On the other hand, 4D is a different case entirely. How does one get real knowledge of 4D without being there? One can speculate all one wants, but certainly any "knowledge" one has of 4D would be different in quality from the knowledge one has of this world. That must be taken into account. Speculations can have a certain probability of being correct based upon how much data one has in hand and the quality of that data. Well, we don't really have any hard data about 4D. We have hearsay that comes from channelled material. We have some ideas from math and physics of what a realm that would permit travel in space-time might be like. But, all in all, there is very little to go on. So, can we really say we can have any "knowledge" at all of 4D? Or that we can even attain such knowledge?

So I think it is best just to keep in mind that it is a possibility, it may well exist, and focus on the world in which we live where we can have knowledge of a different kind, based upon data that can be verified.

Just having as a working hypothesis that 4D exists and that one may be able to go there at some point is already more "knowledge" than most people have. In any case, the focus is not on getting there, it is on bringing the truth here.

so it IS both focus on my own life and the real work to know as much as possible about it and act on that. what else would THE WORK comprise of as of your idea? I -of course- had time to construct my own WORK of which is ongoing, ever changing, waking time and some sleeping time, hardly any time off from it (occasionally a movie and a newspaper which could be said to have mostly none-educational purposes).
since I posted on this forum I have only posted under THE WORK - indicating my preferences nicely (and a new post is in the making - just forwarning ...;-)
But the Work is found everywhere, in all aspects of your life. And here I don't know what your idea of the Work is, so it is difficult to respond. All I can say is that for us, the Work includes those areas found in other threads as well. ;)
 
S

samvado

Guest
henry said:
Just having as a working hypothesis that 4D exists and that one may be able to go there at some point is already more "knowledge" than most people have. In any case, the focus is not on getting there, it is on bringing the truth here.
yes, and it may be rather simple - e.g. if a certain key property of STS exists, and I am sure it does, then recogizing it here will probably help recognizing it there - regardless of what the territory is like. Like I would think a dog (2d) can identify a "bad person" and once it is promoted to human (3d - just an example, it may not happen that way) it will still recognize the "taste" of "bad" and hopefully act accordingly.


But the Work is found everywhere, in all aspects of your life. And here I don't know what your idea of the Work is
well, you just said it - it is everywhere or rather it is here and now. For me, again, I have condensed it to more and more awareness in every situation. From formal ritualized techniques to strengthen awareness over the years it became more and more second nature. It may not be directly gaugable however indirectly possibly it can be read from one life situation in areas that pertain to the special need for attention as one form of awareness, e.g. I drive motorcycle since 35 years and have so far averted any "real" accident - today driving is a form of meditation, like most other things I do.
 
S

samvado

Guest
kenlee said:
The work begins with consciousness or self knowledge.
IMHO it also ends there.
"tell me who you are" is the question the master asks his desciple and that MAY be the first intiation - it is a question not to be answered in real as those who have found it are masters themselves.

G. is a difficult theme to discuss in brief. I would just want to say I am not sure he was a master. However, I am not so I can not be sure of my impression. In this life I have only known of 3 people I asume have that status and only met 2 of them live although in each case it was worth the trouble getting to find them (and trouble it was). But that is another story.
suffice to say I am not particularily interested in G.'s way. There are other ways. Let me hint towards them with a quote from my old master who borrowed it I believe from a japanese roshi: He was asked why suffering seemed to be always part of learning; he answered:
The stupid horse needs to feel the whip, the less stupid horse needs only to hear its crack, the smart horse only needs to see it and the smartest horse only needs to see the shadow of the whip. He tought us to recognize the shadow while G.'s desciples it seems needed to be whipped.
 

kenlee

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
samvado said:
There are other ways. Let me hint towards them with a quote from my old master who borrowed it I believe from a japanese roshi: He was asked why suffering seemed to be always part of learning; he answered:

The stupid horse needs to feel the whip, the less stupid horse needs only to hear its crack, the smart horse only needs to see it and the smartest horse only needs to see the shadow of the whip. He tought us to recognize the shadow while G.'s desciples it seems needed to be whipped.
Ahhh yes indeed, but what if the smartest horse is really the stupid horse who is hypnotised to believe himself to be the smartest horse?

http://glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php?id=455

There was an evil magician. He lived deep in the mountains and the forests, and he had thousands of sheep. But the problem was that the sheep were afraid of the magician because every day the sheep were seeing that one of them was being killed for his breakfast, another was being killed for his lunch. So they ran away from the magician's ranch and it was a difficult job to find them in the vast forest. Being a magician, he used magic.

He hypnotized all the sheep and suggested to them first of all that they were immortal and that no harm was being done to them when they were skinned, that, on the contrary, it would be very good for them and even pleasant; secondly he suggested that the magician was a good master who loved his flock so much that he was ready to do anything in the world for them; and in the third place he suggested to them that if anything at all were going to happen to them it was not going to happen just then, at any rate not that day, and therefore they had no need to think about it.

He then told different sheep...to some, "You are a man, you need not be afraid. It is only the sheep who are going to be killed and eaten, not you. You are a man just like I am." Some other sheep were told, "You are a lion -- only sheep are afraid. They escape, they are cowards. You are a lion; you would prefer to die than to run away. You don't belong to these sheep. So when they are killed it is not your problem. They are meant to be killed, but you are the most loved of my friends in this forest." In this way, he told every sheep different stories, and from the second day, the sheep stopped running away from the house.

They still saw other sheep being killed, butchered, but it was not their concern. Somebody was a lion, somebody was a tiger, somebody was a man, somebody was a magician and so forth. Nobody was a sheep except the one who was being killed. This way, without keeping servants, he managed thousands of sheep. They would go into the forest for their food, for their water, and they would come back home, believing always one thing: "It is some sheep who is going to be killed, not you. You don't belong to the sheep. You are a lion -- respected, honored, a friend of the great magician." The magician's problems were solved and the sheep never ran away again.'
 
Top Bottom